Patriarchal Oppression

Maguined

Having read a lot of threads on TLL regarding that may have dealt with gender bias or discrimination in society normally there are always a few opinions about a patriarchy or a society wide discrimination or oppression of women. I am just wondering how many women here in TLL actually feel that there is an ongoing effort by Irish society to oppress women?

Maybe as a man I just can't appreciate it from a woman's perspective but I would not view Irish society as oppressive to women in general. I am not talking about one or two examples of individual cases of discrimination, I am talking about whether on a daily basis women as individuals feel that their lives have been genuinely oppressed by a "patriarchy" or other male agenda? So I would like to hear some points of view.

Obviously I have seen individual cases of discrimination but I would not of considered it the social norm and so viewed it as a couple of individuals rather than Irish society as a whole, just the same as when I see a couple of Irish people being racist I do not view Irish society as a whole as racist so while I reckon nearly every Irish woman has experienced some cases of gender based discrimination their way I am more looking for this idea of a dominantly society pervading agenda of female oppression and patriarchy establishment and retention of power?

So do you ladies view Irish society as expressly patriarchal and feel genuinely oppressed at your place in society due to your gender? or do you feel society as a whole is fine and it is just some individuals with discriminate beliefs?

seenitall

If we are talking in terms of say, EU, (and bear that in mind ), yes, Ireland is IMO definitely, a very patriarchal society.

From the very high percentage of mothers who can't afford to work as the child-care is so prohibitevely expensive, via the very low percentage of female elected representatives, and the (il)legal status of abortion in this country, to the more subtle, societal ways of reinforcing gender stereoptyping (in what way should a woman dress, what kind of a job she should have etc.), to the still alarmingly high amount (again, IMO ) of out-dated and developmentally regressive number of single-sex schools (not even going into the whole church-school demarcation debate, lol).

It's not all bad, though. I love Ireland as it is my "adoptive" country, and there is, of course, also a few good things to be said about some aspects of tradition (people are geared to at least the principles of "fairness", "charity" and "compassion", something I find lacking in other countries who would, surprisingly have better track-record with gender equality). I really think it almost all boils down to the Catholic thing, both good and bad aspects of it. It is still very (subliminally) pervasive in the Irish mentality, and as long as it is, so will the patriarchal views on women be. <- maybe something wrong with the construction of that last sentence but feck it, am in a hurry.

Ickle Magoo

Look at the hierarchy of any organisation or even the government here in terms of women being employed in management positions, it's about 40 years behind the rest of the west. Only just introduced pre-school childcare, again, many years after others, pathetic paternity leave - it's all very old fashioned. The whole laundries for girls and less said about the father the better attitude was there for a reason and to a certain extent via contraception (both the banning of and the moral judgement that exists today) and abortion there was/is an effort to control women that just doesn't really exist any more anywhere else I've lived.

There are even less subtle ways like mods telling posters to stop being silly by suggesting "they put their handbags away, or "calm down, ladies". There are a hundred little comments, practices, laws, lack of legislation, habits and cultural oddities that I've picked up on since moving here. On their own they are a bit of a nothing but add them all together and you do get a prevailing sense of patriarchal, sometimes verging on misogynistic, mindset in not unsubstantial portion of the population.

That's not to say it's a concerted effort to oppress women by irish society, that sounds, deliberately I'm guessing, slightly hysterical. It's more subtle than that, either subconscious or just backwards and rather ignorant. I think the church's role in irish society and it's views on sex particularly have a lot to answer for.

Xiney

I see it a lot because I pick up on the differences between Ireland and where I'm from.

Most troubling is the fact that a lot of the patriarchal views seem to be reinforced by women themselves towards other women.

I would echo seenitall in saying that the lack of legal abortion here is pretty much all the proof necessary when you ask "is Ireland Patriarchally Oppressive"

Maguined

I just want to respond to a few points but please do not take this as me saying these points are invalid or incorrect as I do not believe there is a right or wrong answer to this topic just peoples interpretations of society but merely want to get a better understanding as my own reactions to some of these points would be different.

The upper management being mostly men is a carry over of the previous generations discriminatory society, this will more evenly balance out in another generation I believe, from my own personal experience I am 28 and work in the financial sector, While the executive directors are based in another country and are dominantly men the CEO is a woman, however in the middle management for every company I have worked in it has been dominated by women, in fact of all my managers and directors I have had in 3 different financial companies I have only ever had 2 direct male managers/directors for my section and at least 20 female managers/directors so in the future more women will be at the top I believe. This is just my experience however so I can perfectly see how others would see this as still societal patriarchy.

I would disagree on the language and abortion however, yes there are many negative language and sayings regarding women however I also see the same about men so I don't see these things as gender discrimination as it happens to both genders equally in my experience. Abortion I would not consider a patriarchal oppression as I have only ever seen object to it because they believe the foetus is alive so abortion is murder, to me this has nothing to do with oppressing women but preventing in their minds murder, while I do not agree to this opinion myself I still respect their objection is based on preserving their view of life rather than an attempt to control or oppress women.

The womens launderies and churhces involvement in the state I definitely agree with and am glad the former is a thing of the past and want the latter removed from involvement as quickly as possible.

Ickle Magoo

Maguined wrote: »

Abortion I would not consider a patriarchal oppression as I have only ever seen object to it because they believe the foetus is alive so abortion is murder, to me this has nothing to do with oppressing women but preventing in their minds murder, while I do not agree to this opinion myself I still respect their objection is based on preserving their view of life rather than an attempt to control or oppress women.

The point being for me that other countries have a more modern outlook that a womans body is not something that can be controlled by the church's view of morality or what constitutes life - again, a very old fashioned and patriarchal way of deciding laws regardless of what side of the abortion debate you are on.

Xiney

Maguined wrote: »

Maybe as a man I just can't appreciate it from a woman's perspective

Anyway I think you've hit the nail on the head here.

Truley

If something is patriarchal surely that implies it is being imposed by men? I don't consider the lack of abortion a patriarchal oppression because from my experience the most zealous pro-life campaigners in this country have been female. Likewise in the case of magdalene laundries which were largely founded and operated by other women.

On a personal level I can honestly say I have not once in my life felt oppressed or discriminated against because of my gender. In fact, I have largely experienced the opposite.

Maguined

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

The point being for me that other countries have a more modern outlook that a womans body is not something that can be controlled by the church's view of morality or what constitutes life - again, a very old fashioned and patriarchal way of deciding laws regardless of what side of the abortion debate you are on.

But how is it a patriarchal way of deciding laws? as much as i dislike it historically the majority of the people in Ireland were catholic and so as a result the majority of the population would of opposed abortions, this is definitely shifting and I have no doubt that in my lifetime abortion will be legalised in Ireland but I don't see the fact that it is not currently as a form of patriarchal oppression, i see it as the lingering result of majority consensus.

I have also never a pro-lifer that felt abortion laws were to control a womans body or choice in life, all of them view it as preventing a murder and nothing to do with gender discrimination.

Xiney wrote: »

Anyway I think you've hit the nail on the head here.

True which is why i am hoping i can gain some insight and understanding from this topic as i have read many suggestions of patriarchal oppression being very strong in Ireland yet when i compare my own life with my sisters i cannot honestly view her life as being significantly oppressed or discriminated against as opposed to my own.

Again i hope people are not viewing this thread as an attempt on my part to deny it's possibility, i just genuinely can't see it in the lives of those around me so am looking for the experiences of those that believe it is a significant factor in Irish womens lives.

I know i have experienced sexist discrimination for being a man several times in my life but i would consider this the actions of individuals and not a societal wide agenda so i want to learn about the experiences of those that believe it does exist in Irish society.

Ickle Magoo

Maguined wrote: »

But how is it a patriarchal way of deciding laws? as much as i dislike it historically the majority of the people in Ireland were catholic and so as a result the majority of the population would of opposed abortions, this is definitely shifting and I have no doubt that in my lifetime abortion will be legalised in Ireland but I don't see the fact that it is not currently as a form of patriarchal oppression, i see it as the lingering result of majority consensus.

Well no, in modern societies the laws are decided via democratic process, not by a male dominated church pulling the strings of power and having such dire influence on the local populace that the current government are too scared to even put it to a referendum many years after most other countries have.

Maguined wrote: »

I have also never a pro-lifer that felt abortion laws were to control a womans body or choice in life, all of them view it as preventing a murder and nothing to do with gender discrimination.

I don't think this is the appropriate platform for this debate but I think it impossible to do one without also doing the other and it's naive to think otherwise.

I'm not sure why you bothered asking the question if you either don't want to hear the answers or are going to argue every point made, I never understand the point of these threads that ask for peoples experiences and opinions with the express purpose of refuting and rebutting every comment with dogged defensiveness. I moved here from another country and it's something I've noticed, if you don't want to accept that - fine. I accept it will not be everyone's experience or something they have noted, that's my experience and I know from speaking to both irish men and women and men and women from other countries that I'm not alone in that. Over & out.

metrovelvet

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

The point being for me that other countries have a more modern outlook that a womans body is not something that can be controlled by the church's view of morality or what constitutes life - again, a very old fashioned and patriarchal way of deciding laws regardless of what side of the abortion debate you are on.

I totally disagree with this. Historically feminism has opposed abortion. It was in the 1960s when feminism focused on reproductive rights and Larry Leder convinced NOW [National Organisation for Women] to make it an issue for them.

Legalised abortion was for the EMPLOYER, for business, not women. The "rights over your body' was the sales pitch.

Ickle Magoo

That's as may be; I'm looking at why in 2010 Ireland merrily turns a blind eye and gives the "right to travel" to thousands of women to ship over to their neighbour for abortions without having ever addressed the issue via democratic means. In the past the biggest objector to any amendments, referendums or alterations were the male only officiates in the catholic church and the male dominated government despite poll after poll showing the majority of people want more liberal laws regarding abortion.

Sorry Maguined, I didn't want to turn this into an abortion debate.

metrovelvet

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

That's as may be; I'm looking at why in 2010 Ireland merrily turns a blind eye and gives the "right to travel" to thousands of women to ship over to their neighbour for abortions without having ever addressed the issue via democratic means. In the past the biggest objector to any amendments, referendums or alterations were the male only officiates in the catholic church and the male dominated government despite poll after poll showing the majority of people want more liberal laws regarding abortion.

Probably because the politicians needed a place to send the young girls they got pregnant. And they dont want it on their doorstep. Small country and all that.

Yeah, I dont know about those polls you're talking about.

I would see Irish medicine as very patriarchal, but then I would see a lot of the west as patriarchal, especially obstetrics. If there is anything I learned during pregnancy is that I, because I am a woman, am not to be trusted with my own body.

Logical Fallacy

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

That's as may be; I'm looking at why in 2010 Ireland merrily turns a blind eye and gives the "right to travel" to thousands of women to ship over to their neighbour for abortions without having ever addressed the issue via democratic means. In the past the biggest objector to any amendments, referendums or alterations were the male only officiates in the catholic church and the male dominated government despite poll after poll showing the majority of people want more liberal laws regarding abortion.

Sorry Maguined, I didn't want to turn this into an abortion debate.

Because it's Ireland the Irish Government will always take the easiest available option that causes the least fuss and risk for them. This way they don't actually have to do anything, sure the UK is only over there. *points*

JuliusCaesar

metrovelvet wrote: »

I totally disagree with this. Historically feminism has opposed abortion. It was in the 1960s when feminism focused on reproductive rights and Larry Leder convinced NOW [National Organisation for Women] to make it an issue for them.

Legalised abortion was for the EMPLOYER, for business, not women. The "rights over your body' was the sales pitch.

Eh??? Oh no, it wasn't. I was an adult, in a relationship, in Ireland before contraception was legal*. Jeez. Read up some of the accounts of women having their 8th child and not having enough money to feed the others. When a miscarriage was a relief, not a tragedy. Even in the 90s there was again a campaign to stop women travelling to Britain if they were of childbearing age, because they might be going for an abortion.

* At that time if you were single and pregnant you were pretty sunk. If your family was supportive, supportive meant sending you away "to help out Auntie Mary" until you delivered, gave up the baby for adoption, and came home alone. Reproductive rights were and are massively important.

metrovelvet

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Eh??? Oh no, it wasn't. I was an adult, in a relationship, in Ireland before contraception was legal*. Jeez. Read up some of the accounts of women having their 8th child and not having enough money to feed the others. When a miscarriage was a relief, not a tragedy. Even in the 90s there was again a campaign to stop women travelling to Britain if they were of childbearing age, because they might be going for an abortion.

* At that time if you were single and pregnant you were pretty sunk. If your family was supportive, supportive meant sending you away "to help out Auntie Mary" until you delivered, gave up the baby for adoption, and came home alone. Reproductive rights were and are massively important.

Abortion isn't birth control.

Ickle Magoo

metrovelvet wrote: »

Yeah, I dont know about those polls you're talking about.

These are the most recent. The polls have shown a growing trend since the referendum in 2002 which was almost a decade after tens of thousands marched to protest that a suicidal under-age rape victim might seek an abortion that wouldn't criminalise her. In the end the country voted and rejected the government, :eek: yes, that's right, the governments proposal (after much lobbying from, yes, you've guessed it - the RCC) to further restrict women's access to abortion.

ifpa poll

irish examiner poll

Maguined

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Well no, in modern societies the laws are decided via democratic process, not by a male dominated church pulling the strings of power and having such dire influence on the local populace that the current government are too scared to even put it to a referendum many years after most other countries have.

Yes but a referendum requiring a change in constitution is normally only brought forward when there is significant public demand for it, I think we are getting close and as a pro-choice person I hope we get that referendum but that doesn't mean I think there is some conspiracy to prevent it, the majority of citizens up until a few years basically did not support it. The polls you suggested are extremely recent, a few in the last couple of years had:

A 1997 Irish Times/MRBI poll found that 18% believe that abortion should never be permitted, 77% believed that it should be allowed in certain circumstances (this was broken down into: 35% that one should be allowed in the event that the woman's life is threatened; 14% if her health is at risk; 28% that "an abortion should be provided to those who need it") and 5% were undecided.[1]
A September 2004 Royal College of Surgeons survey for the Crisis Pregnancy Agency found that, in the under-45 age groups, 51% supported abortion on-demand, with 39% favouring the right to abortion in limited circumstances. Only 8% felt that abortion should not be permitted in any circumstances.[2]
A September 2005 Irish Examiner/Lansdowne poll found that 36% believe abortion should be legalized while 47% do not. [3]
A June 2007 TNS/MRBI poll found that 43% supported legal abortion if a woman believed it was in her best interest while 51% remained opposed. 82% favoured legalization for cases when the woman's life is in danger, 75% when the fetus cannot survive outside the womb, and 73% when the pregnancy has resulted from sexual abuse.[4]

So yes it is definitely heading that way I don't think there was a significant enough demand from the public to warrant such a referendum in the past so i don't view it as patriarchal oppression just what the majority of the population were happy with at the time.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I don't think this is the appropriate platform for this debate but I think it impossible to do one without also doing the other and it's naive to think otherwise.

But the primary motivation is what is primarily important, i honestly don't view the average pro-lifer as being part of a partriarchy that wishes to control womens bodies, but simply view a fertilized egg as life and so view abortion as murder.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I'm not sure why you bothered asking the question if you either don't want to hear the answers or are going to argue every point made, I never understand the point of these threads that ask for peoples experiences and opinions with the express purpose of refuting and rebutting every comment with dogged defensiveness. I moved here from another country and it's something I've noticed, if you don't want to accept that - fine. I accept it will not be everyone's experience or something they have noted, that's my experience and I know from speaking to both irish men and women and men and women from other countries that I'm not alone in that. Over & out.

I do want to hear answers, but in order to understand more and learn as much as possible i have to get into the nitty gritty by pointing out how i might view the same situation differently and then getting more information or a better counterpoint, the more i ask and the more opinions i get, the more i will learn.

Maguined

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

That's as may be; I'm looking at why in 2010 Ireland merrily turns a blind eye and gives the "right to travel" to thousands of women to ship over to their neighbour for abortions without having ever addressed the issue via democratic means. In the past the biggest objector to any amendments, referendums or alterations were the male only officiates in the catholic church and the male dominated government despite poll after poll showing the majority of people want more liberal laws regarding abortion.

Sorry Maguined, I didn't want to turn this into an abortion debate.

That's okay, we are not really getting into an abortion is right or wrong debate but more discussing whether anti-abortion is really patriarchal reinforcement or not which is definitely part of what i am trying to look at, how two people can look at the same situation and one see gender discrimination and control and the other not, so this difference is what i wanted to look at.

metrovelvet

Maguined wrote: »

That's okay, we are not really getting into an abortion is right or wrong debate but more discussing whether anti-abortion is really patriarchal reinforcement or not which is definitely part of what i am trying to look at, how two people can look at the same situation and one see gender discrimination and control and the other not, so this difference is what i wanted to look at.

I do not see anti abortion as patriarchal reinforcement. I see pro abortion as suiting free enterprise and the patriarchal [and feudal] structures of business because they dont want to pay for maternity leave and have the hassle of having to accommodate mothers.

ztoical

Maguined wrote: »

Obviously I have seen individual cases of discrimination but I would not of considered it the social norm and so viewed it as a couple of individuals rather than Irish society as a whole, just the same as when I see a couple of Irish people being racist I do not view Irish society as a whole as racist so while I reckon nearly every Irish woman has experienced some cases of gender based discrimination their way I am more looking for this idea of a dominantly society pervading agenda of female oppression and patriarchy establishment and retention of power?

So do you ladies view Irish society as expressly patriarchal and feel genuinely oppressed at your place in society due to your gender? or do you feel society as a whole is fine and it is just some individuals with discriminate beliefs?

Back over 30 years ago my mother started working as a GP and at the time had nothing but road blocks thrown up in front of her. She was told over and over that no one would go to a female GP and as she was married she should focus now on having babies. When she tells me about this I always think yeah but that was 30 years ago, surely now the country has changed and the fact that your a GP with a well established business you no longer have to deal with this and the sad answer is no, it hasn't changed. On a daily basis she has to keep proving herself to people. I've spoken with a number of GP's and all the female ones find the same attitude. About 10 years ago she took on a partner, a male GP and the minute she did the members of the town county council, the local TD and the GAA board whom she worked with for over 10+ years stopped calling her and called him. She had to go down and fight with them over it. She was the senior doctor but because he was male they directed all questions and comments towards him and her input was ignored. I can't even put into words the attitude these people in authority have towards her and other female business owners in the town. It's not a case of one off discrimination but it's also something thats hard to put into words, people hold up examples of females in high positions as proof that there is no discrimination but they have to put so much more effort in to get somewhere, I have such respect for mother as it would have been so easy to just say feck it why bother.

metrovelvet

If I go into the bank with my brother to talk about MY MONEY. They talk to him.

And don't get me started on doctors, cops, and plumbers in this country.

ztoical

metrovelvet wrote: »

If I go into the bank with my brother to talk about MY MONEY. They talk to him.

When my mother started a business account for HER business all her statements arrived to our house addressed to my dad. She went down to the bank and explained it was her business and nothing to do with her husband but still the statements came addressed to him. After several attempts including my dad going down and telling them she closed the account and moved it to another bank and even then they couldn't understand what her problem was, surely your husband lives with you so you'll get the statements ugh!

ztoical

ztoical wrote: »

When my mother started a business account for HER business all her statements arrived to our house addressed to my dad. She went down to the bank and explained it was her business and nothing to do with her husband but still the statements came addressed to him. After several attempts including my dad going down and telling them she closed the account and moved it to another bank and even then they couldn't understand what her problem was, surely your husband lives with you so you'll get the statements ugh!

I remember my grandmother having a fit about the same thing (personal account)!
She ate them out of it and they finally stopped :mad:

Chuchoter

Patriarchy has changed in Ireland. Its definitely there, but its much quieter and subtle. I think abortion is less an issue of 'patriarchy' and a lack of respect for women, not inherently related to men. I would say that yes, I do feel oppressed as a woman for the following reasons

1. The Rape Culture. I should not have to be afraid of going out in the dark or being alone with men, but I am and I am taught to be so. Rape is one of the few crimes where the victim more often than not blamed, and conviction rates are incredibly low. I think male on male rape is viewed as more serious and shocking, which proposes that womens bodies (and their boundaries) have less integrity than mens, and are to some extent, someone else's property, which leads me on to my next point.

2. Abortion. My body is mine. I attach no value to a bundle of cells with no consciousness, and I resent being told I can't decide what gets to live in it. I resent being told I am held prisoner by my body's capabilities. What bothers me even more is idiots who go on about "Abortion is ok in case of rape/disease etc" either human life is inherently valuable or its not, frankly I don't think it is.

3. Children! Women are expected to have children. If they have no desire to have children,they're viewed as strange. If they have kids but spend loads of time at work (ie they are surgeons or something) they are viewed as terrible people. Take a man who doesn't want kids/ focuses on his career. Little to no judgement is passed on him.

4. Lack of respect. I feel that more often than men, women are portrayed as stupid, fickle, bitchy, shallow, weak and incompetent. Women rarely play the hero in anything. They always seem to need a man to step in and send them in the right direction. Nobody watches womens sports, women politicians are ridiculed more often for their looks (take Mary Harney) than their skills or lack thereof.

5. Sexuality. Teenage girls do not expect orgasms, they see themselves purely for their boyfriends pleasure. Female sexuality (in general) is taboo. Women are not expected to masturbate or watch porn. I also get annoyed that you hear "Butch lesbians just want to be men/Why not just go out with a man?" or "You just haven't met the right kind of guy yet" a HELL OF A LOT more than I hear it said about gay men. Womens sexuality and men are viewed as mutually inclusive.

seenitall

Maguined wrote: »

That's okay, we are not really getting into an abortion is right or wrong debate but more discussing whether anti-abortion is really patriarchal reinforcement or not which is definitely part of what i am trying to look at, how two people can look at the same situation and one see gender discrimination and control and the other not, so this difference is what i wanted to look at.

Of course abortion is a gender equality issue, anyone who thinks otherwise, at best, incredibly naive. (Sorry about that, Maguined , just my opinion!)

To quote myself directly from the recent post in the Humanities:

I also believe that no way in heck would abortion have ever been illegal anywhere, if it were men having to carry pregnancies. In other words: it is also a gender equality issue. Evidence: the only countries in the Western world where abortion is still illegal are ones that are greatly patriarchal (by way of a strong and influential Christian Church).

Remember that it has been a man's world for many, many centuries. Something like that cannot be reversed overnight. It is moving in a good direction, at least.

rantyface

crayolastereo wrote: »

Patriarchy has changed in Ireland. Its definitely there, but its much quieter and subtle. I think abortion is less an issue of 'patriarchy' and a lack of respect for women, not inherently related to men. I would say that yes, I do feel oppressed as a woman for the following reasons

1. The Rape Culture. I should not have to be afraid of going out in the dark or being alone with men, but I am and I am taught to be so.

Men are FAR more likely to be the victims of violent assault than women. Women are generally safer than men on nights out. Anyway, most rapes are by someone the victim knows and not randomly out on the street so you're more likely to be raped at home by your dad or your brother or uncle or husband than by a stranger in the city late at night. If you are afraid of being out at night it's because you're paranoid, not because it's actually dangerous.

donfers

ztoical wrote: »

Back over 30 years ago my mother started working as a GP and at the time had nothing but road blocks thrown up in front of her. She was told over and over that no one would go to a female GP and as she was married she should focus now on having babies. When she tells me about this I always think yeah but that was 30 years ago, surely now the country has changed and the fact that your a GP with a well established business you no longer have to deal with this and the sad answer is no, it hasn't changed. On a daily basis she has to keep proving herself to people. I've spoken with a number of GP's and all the female ones find the same attitude. About 10 years ago she took on a partner, a male GP and the minute she did the members of the town county council, the local TD and the GAA board whom she worked with for over 10+ years stopped calling her and called him. She had to go down and fight with them over it. She was the senior doctor but because he was male they directed all questions and comments towards him and her input was ignored. I can't even put into words the attitude these people in authority have towards her and other female business owners in the town. It's not a case of one off discrimination but it's also something thats hard to put into words, people hold up examples of females in high positions as proof that there is no discrimination but they have to put so much more effort in to get somewhere, I have such respect for mother as it would have been so easy to just say feck it why bother.

fair enough but most of my friends were studying medicine a few years ago and have since become doctors, the girls are always teasing the guys because the girls have more patients...basically the consensus is that if a guy goes to the doctor, he is not fussy and doesn't mind if he sees a male or female gp, but my friends say that more women are concerned about the sex of the gp they visit and make more requests to seek out a female gp for whatever reason (friends have debated this and said women are more sensitive about body issues etc). Anyway the point is that this group of people, of mixed genders are constantly alluding to this trend where women actively seek out female gps and men don't really mind, thus women gps have access to a greater pool of patients.

Now of course this is just one observation from one group of people and is as valid as your observation about the discrimination your mother faced 30 years ago. Perhaps even more valid as the observation I mention is happening today, not 30 years ago. But you know what, I am not going to preach about injustice and discrimination because these issues are never that simple. They depend on a multitude of factors, from where the practice is located (urban or rural) to the social class of the patients to the mood of the gp on the day to the weather to if the magazines in the waiting room were to everybodys liking to a million other things.

The point, is that it is the easiest thing in the world to look for injustice/ "indiscrimination" and dress it under whatever banner fits your political agenda but that's just boring, unhelpful and more often than not disingenuous.

The fact is, that people are **** sometimes, it's not because of your colour or sex or nationality or strange facial hair...it's because people are **** sometimes.

Maguined

crayolastereo wrote: »

1. The Rape Culture. I should not have to be afraid of going out in the dark or being alone with men, but I am and I am taught to be so. Rape is one of the few crimes where the victim more often than not blamed, and conviction rates are incredibly low. I think male on male rape is viewed as more serious and shocking, which proposes that womens bodies (and their boundaries) have less integrity than mens, and are to some extent, someone else's property, which leads me on to my next point.

But is rape not perpetrated by individuals and not endorsed by a society? I would completely agree in the past when they had those nonsense laws that a man could not be convicted of raping his wife as he basically had rights over her body but in todays society i would find everyone would view rape as abhorrent so would not view it as a social oppression but the acts of evil individuals?

crayolastereo wrote: »

3. Children! Women are expected to have children. If they have no desire to have children,they're viewed as strange. If they have kids but spend loads of time at work (ie they are surgeons or something) they are viewed as terrible people. Take a man who doesn't want kids/ focuses on his career. Little to no judgement is passed on him.

Yes but a man who wants to stay at home and mind children also has judgement passed on him, in fact a man wanting to be a nurse or primary school teacher also has judgements passed on him so while both genders face stereotyping would it really be considered oppression when both sides have to deal with it just in different ways? I'm not stating this as fact, just a thought.

crayolastereo wrote: »

4. Lack of respect. I feel that more often than men, women are portrayed as stupid, fickle, bitchy, shallow, weak and incompetent. Women rarely play the hero in anything. They always seem to need a man to step in and send them in the right direction. Nobody watches womens sports, women politicians are ridiculed more often for their looks (take Mary Harney) than their skills or lack thereof.

I think this is definitely always going to be a grass is greener on the other side, from my point of view men are always painted as stupid and feckless and need to be told what to do by women but then i would be more aware of negative male stereotypes just as women would be more aware of negative female stereotypes so i don't think anyone could be objective and see who gets it worst overall in society.

Sports are different though in my opinion, men generally dominate sporting activities due to generally higher physical capabilities and people tend to watch the best at the given field, just as the average Irish fan of football watches the english premier league because they are dramatically better than our own national league.

crayolastereo wrote: »

5. Sexuality. Teenage girls do not expect orgasms, they see themselves purely for their boyfriends pleasure. Female sexuality (in general) is taboo. Women are not expected to masturbate or watch porn. I also get annoyed that you hear "Butch lesbians just want to be men/Why not just go out with a man?" or "You just haven't met the right kind of guy yet" a HELL OF A LOT more than I hear it said about gay men. Womens sexuality and men are viewed as mutually inclusive.

To be honest i think the main reason female sexuality being taboo is women themselves, from my generation i have never met a man who wanted a more repressed sexuality in a woman or complains how sexually adventurous a woman was. I would agree with the men giving out about "butch lesbians" after trying their arm but would you feel that this is because society is not as accepting of womens homosexuality? to be honest in my opinion think it would be far more likely that it is insecure men who after having their advances rejected lash out, i see it all the time when a guy gets rejected by a straight woman as well and feels he needs to soothe his ego by making a joke of his advances in the first place or more likely insulting the women to pretend he was never interested in the first place.

Thanks for your responses, and please don't take my responses as criticism of your experiences just throwing my interpretations into the mix.

All the situations people mentioned about women running business i completely agree with, i could forgive a couple of male patients being nervous and insecure with a female doctor if they had some intimate issues but what was mentioned was definitely beyond that and probably a clear indication of gender bias.

holystungun9

As a guy I suppose that I may not notice as much but I do feel it is there. From a different angle, I am working in a school in South America and I can say that it certainly is more blatant here. Girls and women are clearly subservient (yes, I know by generalizing I am screwing up the facts a bit). The guys would ordinarily have dibs on everything and the girls would sit back leaving the guys get the things they want.(e.g. sports gear or school supplies etc.) And they would choose from the rest. It is a question of awareness and respect.

ztoical

donfers wrote: »

The point, is that it is the easiest thing in the world to look for injustice/ "indiscrimination" and dress it under whatever banner fits your political agenda but that's just boring, unhelpful and more often than not disingenuous.

I was not and my mother certainly does not go looking for discrimination. Like I said it's something thats hard to put into words and explain to someone who has not had to put up with it. This is something that she and other women have put with and are still putting up with as business women. 30 years go yes she got told no one would go to a a female doctor and that attitude has changed alot in recent years - more down to women being more in control of their own health issues but the area were it has not is in the polictical side of things as seen with dealings with the like of the town county council, the church and the GAA board etc. She was the doctor for the Tipperary hurling team for two seasons but stepped down as it just wasn't worth the consent agro - going to cork for a match not being allowed into the stadium by officals and when she said she was the team doctor the guy goes no your not your a woman. The people who "dress" things up are the ones who use it as an excuse and don't try. My mother has never blamed anyone, or used being a woman as an excuse ever. She was told no one would go to her as GP she said feck them and started her business anyway and now has one of the largest GP practices in the country [according to the Irish Indo], she has worked very bloody hard and too right gets miffed when someone who hasn't put the time and effort in gets the respect she has earned. I asked her honestly about what it was like starting her business and she told me honestly, she wasn't moaning or making excuses just saying what happened and what still happens.

Truley

seenitall wrote: »

Of course abortion is a gender equality issue, anyone who thinks otherwise, at best, incredibly naive. (Sorry about that, Maguined , just my opinion!)

To quote myself directly from the recent post in the Humanities:

I also believe that no way in heck would abortion have ever been illegal anywhere, if it were men having to carry pregnancies. In other words: it is also a gender equality issue. Evidence: the only countries in the Western world where abortion is still illegal are ones that are greatly patriarchal (by way of a strong and influential Christian Church).

Remember that it has been a man's world for many, many centuries. Something like that cannot be reversed overnight. It is moving in a good direction, at least.

It's hard to call the issue of abortion a gender equality issue as we can never know, and can only take a (very) wild guess as to what the laws would be like if men could get pregnant.

I don't think it's naive however to think that it seperate from patriarchy when so many women are against abortion. In fact I would wager a greater proportion of women are against it than men. Just look at any pro life demonstrations in your area or in the media.

Maguined

seenitall wrote: »

Of course abortion is a gender equality issue, anyone who thinks otherwise, at best, incredibly naive. (Sorry about that, Maguined , just my opinion!)

To quote myself directly from the recent post in the Humanities:

I also believe that no way in heck would abortion have ever been illegal anywhere, if it were men having to carry pregnancies. In other words: it is also a gender equality issue. Evidence: the only countries in the Western world where abortion is still illegal are ones that are greatly patriarchal (by way of a strong and influential Christian Church).

Remember that it has been a man's world for many, many centuries. Something like that cannot be reversed overnight. It is moving in a good direction, at least.

No offense taken, I don't know if i would agree with your evidence though, plenty of european countries are also heavily influenced by the christian church, Italy i would consider more patriarchal than Ireland and they have abortion, the same with many easter european countries and asia, these places would be more patriarchal in my opinion and have abortion so i do not view the pro-life as a gender equality issue but more a religious and moral interpretation of the definition of life and hence the definition of murder, would you view China's acceptance of abortion as being based on gender equality and their positive view of womens choice or more likely due to lack of religious influence?

donfers

crayolastereo wrote: »

Patriarchy has changed in Ireland. Its definitely there, but its much quieter and subtle. I think abortion is less an issue of 'patriarchy' and a lack of respect for women, not inherently related to men. I would say that yes, I do feel oppressed as a woman for the following reasons

1. The Rape Culture. I should not have to be afraid of going out in the dark or being alone with men, but I am and I am taught to be so. Rape is one of the few crimes where the victim more often than not blamed, and conviction rates are incredibly low. I think male on male rape is viewed as more serious and shocking, which proposes that womens bodies (and their boundaries) have less integrity than mens, and are to some extent, someone else's property, which leads me on to my next point.

2. Abortion. My body is mine. I attach no value to a bundle of cells with no consciousness, and I resent being told I can't decide what gets to live in it. I resent being told I am held prisoner by my body's capabilities. What bothers me even more is idiots who go on about "Abortion is ok in case of rape/disease etc" either human life is inherently valuable or its not, frankly I don't think it is.

3. Children! Women are expected to have children. If they have no desire to have children,they're viewed as strange. If they have kids but spend loads of time at work (ie they are surgeons or something) they are viewed as terrible people. Take a man who doesn't want kids/ focuses on his career. Little to no judgement is passed on him.

4. Lack of respect. I feel that more often than men, women are portrayed as stupid, fickle, bitchy, shallow, weak and incompetent. Women rarely play the hero in anything. They always seem to need a man to step in and send them in the right direction. Nobody watches womens sports, women politicians are ridiculed more often for their looks (take Mary Harney) than their skills or lack thereof.

5. Sexuality. Teenage girls do not expect orgasms, they see themselves purely for their boyfriends pleasure. Female sexuality (in general) is taboo. Women are not expected to masturbate or watch porn. I also get annoyed that you hear "Butch lesbians just want to be men/Why not just go out with a man?" or "You just haven't met the right kind of guy yet" a HELL OF A LOT more than I hear it said about gay men. Womens sexuality and men are viewed as mutually inclusive.

1. I know guys who feel they have to cross the road, walk in the opposite direction of where they want to go or walk slower than normal at night so as not to freak some lady at night. Basically these things only affect you as much as you let them. I think you should deal with your fear as it sounds quite unhealthy to me if you can't be alone with a guy without being in fear of being raped.

You say the victim is blamed more often than not, can you provide evidence as I simply don't believe that.

You say male on male rape is viewed as more serious, first time I've heard that, can you provide evidence as I simply don't believe that.

2. Many people don't view the foetus as a lump of cells, the differing interpretation of what constitutes life is the problem here....not everyone shares your view that human life has no value

3. Who views these women with kids as strange? Who views these women with careers as terrible people? Frankly I'd advise you to spend time with more open-minded people. I'd also suggest you acknowledge that society imposes expectations on all of us, for men to behave like men, women to behave like women and children to behave like children. There are pros and cons for men, women and children based on what society wants to construct us as, not just cons for women which is the only issue you highlight. I would say two two things here

a) don't let the opinions of idiots/society whores influence you too much-they are rarely worth listening to

b) it's not always best to rush to victimhood, often it can exacerbate the sense of weakness you look to avoid


4. Again your own subjective views and you're entitled to them but in my opinion again I think it's a case of seeking out offense to fit your agenda. The trend with advertising nowadays is to portray the male as dummy, the other trend is the rise of the female hero in tv/cinema (buffy, dark angel, alias, sarah connor, fringe, lara croft, salt and many many many more) so basically the current trends are exactly contrary to your view.

5. I'd agree with most of that

ztoical

Maguined wrote: »

would you view China's acceptance of abortion as being based on gender equality and their positive view of womens choice or more likely due to lack of religious influence?

China and most Asian and 3rd world countries abortion postitions are very much down to gender issues and not religion or a positive view of a womens choice, as the majority of aborted babies are female. Girls are seen as burden in these countries, esp China with their one child policy. People want boys as a boy will look after them in their old age while a girl costs money with doweries and become part of her husband family when she marries so they abort girls. It's causing major gender imbalances in parts of India.

seenitall

Truley wrote: »

It's hard to call the issue of abortion a gender equality issue as we can never know, and can only take a (very) wild guess as to what the laws would be like if men could get pregnant.

I don't think it's naive however to think that it seperate from patriarchy when so many women are against abortion. In fact I would wager a greater proportion of women are against it than men. Just look at any pro life demonstrations in your area or in the media.

Excuse me, but I don't think it takes a gigantic leap of imagination/a "wild guess" to learn that men have suited themselves through the centuries and kept women subordinate throughout history using religion, laws and other secular practices such as education etc. From there it follows clear as day that they would be also suiting themselves in this matter; why wouldn't they? And please don't answer this question with the religion/right to life argument - enough murders, wars and all sorts of horrors have been and are being committed in the name of religion, or endorsed by religion, for us to know that this is nothing but a thin smoke-screen. Religion is and will endorse anything when it is convenient enough. That's because religion is the product of human race.

And as to women being against abortion as well? Men are not the only creatures capable of thinking they have the right to control what others do with their bodies.

seenitall

Maguined wrote: »

No offense taken, I don't know if i would agree with your evidence though, plenty of european countries are also heavily influenced by the christian church, Italy i would consider more patriarchal than Ireland and they have abortion, the same with many easter european countries and asia, these places would be more patriarchal in my opinion and have abortion so i do not view the pro-life as a gender equality issue but more a religious and moral interpretation of the definition of life and hence the definition of murder, would you view China's acceptance of abortion as being based on gender equality and their positive view of womens choice or more likely due to lack of religious influence?

Well, all I see with your argument is that many traditionally religious/patriarchal societies have woken up and smelt the roses of more equal rights for women (EU countries such as Italy, whereas Ireland still lags behind), and the Asian ones such as China, have decided to "encourage" women for abortions solely because it suits them at the moment ("one child policy" and similar), again authorities entering the private domain and telling women what to do with their bodies, only it happens to be "the other way round" as it were.

As to the Catholic Eastern-European countries such as Poland etc. your argument is indicative of someone who is uninitiated into the finer points of what 50 years of communism actually does to a religion, on a national as well as individual level. Communism and religion do not go hand in hand, to put it mildly . There was absolutely no scope for a long, long time now, for religion to take hold as much as it did and is doing in Ireland. These are secular societies, and that 50-year tradition has actually ensured that patriarchal church never meddles in state affairs too much and women's voices be heard, even after the 1990.

Truley

seenitall wrote: »

And as to women being against abortion as well? Men are not the only creatures capable of thinking they have the right to control what others do with their bodies.

Eh, that was sort of my point Issues like abortion, sexual taboos, inequality etc are not a clear cut male versus female argument. There is a huge array of factors coming in to play and it can rarely be narrowed down to a case of 'men trying to oppress us.' I think you are over simplifying.

seenitall

Truley wrote: »

Eh, that was sort of my point Issues like abortion, sexual taboos, inequality etc are not a clear cut male versus female argument. There is a huge array of factors coming in to play and it can rarely be narrowed down to a case of 'men trying to oppress us.' I think you are over simplifying.

You are right. The gender equality issue is not solely about "men trying to oppress us" (they don't have to try very hard anyway...), it is about both men and women subscribing to out-dated patriarchal notions such as religions, many of whose regulations were originally designed specifically to oppress women. Any better?

Maguined

ztoical wrote: »

China and most Asian and 3rd world countries abortion postitions are very much down to gender issues and not religion or a positive view of a womens choice, as the majority of aborted babies are female. Girls are seen as burden in these countries, esp China with their one child policy. People want boys as a boy will look after them in their old age while a girl costs money with doweries and become part of her husband family when she marries so they abort girls. It's causing major gender imbalances in parts of India.

That is my point though, i think many are taking an overly simplified view that if you don't support abortion then you are trying to enforce patriarchal oppression and have also said that countries that have abortion are inherently less patriarchal than Ireland which i do not believe in it being that simple as there are countries with abortion that are more patriarchal and there are countries without abortion that are less patriarchal.

It is just not that simple as abortion is a pretty complicated matter in my view.

seenitall

Maguined wrote: »

That is my point though, i think many are taking an overly simplified view that if you don't support abortion then you are trying to enforce patriarchal oppression and have also said that countries that have abortion are inherently less patriarchal than Ireland which i do not believe in it being that simple as there are countries with abortion that are more patriarchal and there are countries without abortion that are less patriarchal.

It is just not that simple as abortion is a pretty complicated matter in my view.

Nope, not all that complicated at all.

I don't care if the patriarchal ideology that is used as the tool to control women is Catholicism, communism, Islam or The High Church of the Hobbit, it is all the same when it comes to the end result for women. In China it just happens to be communism at the moment, however they have a centuries and centuries long tradition of, ahem, gender equality issues.

From wikipedia:

Patriarchy is a social system in which the role of the father is central to social organization, and where fathers hold authority over women, children, and property. Historically, the principle of patriarchy has been central to the social, legal, political, and economic organization of Hebrew, Greek, Roman, Indian, and Chinese cultures, and has had a deep influence on modern civilization.[1]

Ickle Magoo

Maguined wrote: »

That is my point though, i think many are taking an overly simplified view that if you don't support abortion then you are trying to enforce patriarchal oppression and have also said that countries that have abortion are inherently less patriarchal than Ireland which i do not believe in it being that simple as there are countries with abortion that are more patriarchal and there are countries without abortion that are less patriarchal.

It is just not that simple as abortion is a pretty complicated matter in my view.

I think you are missing the point that in THIS country, the issue of abortion has been decided by - and the biggest group that currently lobbies the government trying to ensure even rape victims would be criminalised for seeking an abortion - is wholly run by men. That Ireland hasn't yet been offered a full referendum and even why ireland is at least a generation behind other countries regarding attitudes on sex, contraception, etc is because of the extraordinary influence of that male only club on irish society.

That other countries have moved on and managed to shake off the shackles of religious and state entwinement doesn't change what it was and what it still is here. I don't think you can ignore the enormous patriarchal influence the church has had and still does have so much influence in so many facets of life and more importantly, had/s an enormous part to play in what attitudes to all manner of things are up to present day.

I only moved here what 6-7 years ago and it was a HUGE culture shock that was completely unexpected because I thought ireland and scotland would be much of a muchness. I think a lot of people here have perhaps grown up with things as the norm and can't actually see or don't know or notice the differences between ireland and many other countries that are less patriarchal.

Nevyn

Every time a woman gets ingored by a retailer/plumber/mechanic/ect who talks over her to the man who is present when she is the one asking the questions about her house/car/purchase ect that is patriachy in action.

We have come along way in the last 50 years to undo a lot of the laws which were based on the Victorian notion that women were own by thier fathers until they got married to thier husband but there are still things which need to be changed and that is the attitudes of people and the notion that women are lesser.

http://thaedydal.wordpress.com/2010/05/27/ten-things-an-irish-woman-could-not-do-in-1970/#comments

Maguined

seenitall wrote: »

Nope, not all that complicated at all.

I don't care if the patriarchal ideology that is used as the tool to control women is Catholicism, communism, Islam or The High Church of the Hobbit, it is all the same when it comes to the end result for women. In China it just happens to be communism at the moment, however they have a centuries and centuries long tradition of, ahem, gender equality issues.

From wikipedia:

Patriarchy is a social system in which the role of the father is central to social organization, and where fathers hold authority over women, children, and property. Historically, the principle of patriarchy has been central to the social, legal, political, and economic organization of Hebrew, Greek, Roman, Indian, and Chinese cultures, and has had a deep influence on modern civilization.[1]

So some countries refuse abortion because of patriarchal control and some countries accept abortion because of patriarchal control, do you view any countries that have accepted abortion because of non patriarchal control? Or that anyone could be anti-abortion without trying to enforce patriarchal control?

Maguined

Thaedydal wrote: »

Every time a woman gets ingored by a retailer/plumber/mechanic/ect who talks over her to the man who is present when she is the one asking the questions about her house/car/purchase ect that is patriachy in action.

We have come along way in the last 50 years to undo a lot of the laws which were based on the Victorian notion that women were own by thier fathers until they got married to thier husband but there are still things which need to be changed and that is the attitudes of people and the notion that women are lesser.

http://thaedydal.wordpress.com/2010/05/27/ten-things-an-irish-woman-could-not-do-in-1970/#comments

This is the sort of example i would agree with completely, and i have experienced this myself going to a mechanic with my girlfriend at the time, the mechanic kept talking to me when it was clearly my girlfriends car and i didn't drive and knew nothing about cars.

seenitall

Maguined wrote: »

So some countries refuse abortion because of patriarchal control and some countries accept abortion because of patriarchal control, do you view any countries that have accepted abortion because of non patriarchal control? Or that anyone could be anti-abortion without trying to enforce patriarchal control?

Well, I don't know how much clearer I can get, but I will try:

There are no countries that accept abortion because of patriarchal control. They can only accept it in spite of it. There are ones that "encourage" abortion, regardless of women's wishes, they make it a state policy because of a state agenda (China). My "wild guess" is that they wouldn't be doing this if they hadn't behind them centuries of patriarchal systems (or distinct lack of democracy), no matter that communism is now the top dog. Communism in the Far East did not serve all the same purposes that it did in Europe. It is an ideology, that, as any other ideology, can be warped and moulded to suit the agenda of the time.

Do I think that anyone could be anti-abortion without trying to enforce patriarchal control? Yes, absolutely. Example: myself. I think abortion is depriving a life and I don't much care for that. However, I am still some way away from thinking my personal opinions give me the right to determine what women do with their bodies. See the difference between that and "enforcing patriarchal control"?

BTW, another, more roundabout answer to that question of yours would be a counter-question: ever met a pro-lifer who wasn't religious? Cos I don't think I have.

metrovelvet

Maguined wrote: »

This is the sort of example i would agree with completely, and i have experienced this myself going to a mechanic with my girlfriend at the time, the mechanic kept talking to me when it was clearly my girlfriends car and i didn't drive and knew nothing about cars.

I have been lucky with mechanics. I find doctors to be the worst in my experience.

metrovelvet

seenitall wrote: »

Well, I don't know how much clearer I can get, but I will try:

There are no countries that accept abortion because of patriarchal control. They can only accept it in spite of it. There are ones that "encourage" abortion, regardless of women's wishes, they make it a state policy because of a state agenda (China). My "wild guess" is that they wouldn't be doing this if they hadn't behind them centuries of patriarchal systems (or distinct lack of democracy), no matter that communism is now the top dog. Communism in the Far East did not serve all the same purposes that it did in Europe. It is an ideology, that, as any other ideology, can be warped and moulded to suit the agenda of the time.

Do I think that anyone could be anti-abortion without trying to enforce patriarchal control? Yes, absolutely. Example: myself. I think abortion is depriving a life and I don't much care for that. However, I am still some way away from thinking my personal opinions give me the right to determine what women do with their bodies. See the difference between that and "enforcing patriarchal control"?

BTW, another, more roundabout answer to that question of yours would be a counter-question: ever met a pro-lifer who wasn't religious? Cos I don't think I have.

Sorry but France has a very high abortion rate. Has a gazillion different ways to terminate your pregnancy, as pro choicers euphamistically call it, and imo is very patriarchal, much moreso than Ireland in my experience.

I think abortion serves a different patriarchy. The patriarchy of labour and business.

Mens rights call it a gender issue because they cant have abortions. They cant terminate their responsibilities to their children the way women can. The closest to abortion they can do is abandonment, but they cant have financial abortions.

LittleBook

Maguined wrote: »

But is rape not perpetrated by individuals and not endorsed by a society?

I'm trying my very best not to come across as sensationalist here but isn't a society where:

- 40% of the victims of reported rapes considered withdrawing the charge due to the poor reaction by gardaí
- only one 1 in 3 rape cases is actually brought to trial
- of those brought to trial, only 7% result in convictions

a society which is, on some level, endorsing rape? And that’s without even starting on sentencing for rape.

Rape & Justice In Ireland

I read a horrible article some years back which quoted some of the closing statements from judges in rape cases:

"No actual injury was inflicted on the victim other than rape … was just something that happened between them but he went too far” – [The attacker] had jumped the woman he attacked. He threatened to kill her. He had left her with bruises all over her body.

“The court is convinced that it is not dealing with a man who is likely to reoffend. We cannot believe that an exemplary sentence would serve any purpose in this case.” – Referring to the perpetrator in the “X Case” who served four years and upon release obtained a taxi driver licence and went on to sexually assault a 15-year-old girl in his taxi (for which he was sentenced to three and a half years).

“If it wasn't for drink, you wouldn't have laid a hand on her.” – To a man who battered a 61-year-old woman to death … I won’t mention how this case involved sexual assault.

“It strikes me as one of the kind of accidents in life that can happen to almost anyone.” - A judge as he convicted a man of the rape of a seven-year-old girl.

“Our Supreme Court has said that it is only in the most exceptional circumstances that a court should consider departing from a significant custodial sentence.” – The judge in the Lavinia Kerwick case who went on to adjourn sentencing for a year in order to give the rapist (who never served any custodial sentence for the attack) “a chance as a human being”.

When A Woman Is Raped Her Ordeal Has Only Just Begun

Maguined wrote: »

i think many are taking an overly simplified view that if you don't support abortion then you are trying to enforce patriarchal oppression and have also said that countries that have abortion are inherently less patriarchal than Ireland which i do not believe in it being that simple as there are countries with abortion that are more patriarchal and there are countries without abortion that are less patriarchal.

In most cases of "patriarchal countries" where abortion is now legal, the state successfully separated from their "patriarchal church" some time ago which is not the case in Ireland. For the record though, I'd never have considered Italy to be patriarchal, Rome ... yes, Italy ... no

Taking a step back from abortion to contraception though ... there was a thread here recently discussing long-term (for want of a better word) contraception options in Ireland which was a real eye-opener for me.

Has Anyone Ever Considered Getting Their Tubes Tied

To cut a long story short ... vasectomies, no problem. Tubal litigations or even Mirena coils ... "woah there, you're a woman, you're supposed to have babies, we can't in good conscience let you go down this route!"

Having said all that, I don't personally feel "oppressed" on a day-to-day basis but I have never needed the support of the state in relation to any of the above.

metrovelvet

^ While I agree with you about the culture of rape, you cant pin down Ireland without comparing it to other countries who have divorced from patriarchy.

You think those things dont happen in the US, or England or France?

And if you think Italy is not patriarchal, well... I don't know what Italy you were in...

seenitall

metrovelvet wrote: »

Sorry but France has a very high abortion rate. Has a gazillion different ways to terminate your pregnancy, as pro choicers euphamistically call it, and imo is very patriarchal, much moreso than Ireland in my experience.

I think abortion serves a different patriarchy. The patriarchy of labour and business.

Mens rights call it a gender issue because they cant have abortions. They cant terminate their responsibilities to their children the way women can. The closest to abortion they can do is abandonment, but they cant have financial abortions.

Have to agree to disagree on France. As Xiney said, one sure-fire way of determining the level of a patriarchy is the abortion issue. It is paramount when it comes to gender equality. In this, Ireland lags behind the rest of traditionally patriarchal countries such as France and Italy, ergo it is more patriarchal.