Patriarchal Oppression

Maguined

Having read a lot of threads on TLL regarding that may have dealt with gender bias or discrimination in society normally there are always a few opinions about a patriarchy or a society wide discrimination or oppression of women. I am just wondering how many women here in TLL actually feel that there is an ongoing effort by Irish society to oppress women?

Maybe as a man I just can't appreciate it from a woman's perspective but I would not view Irish society as oppressive to women in general. I am not talking about one or two examples of individual cases of discrimination, I am talking about whether on a daily basis women as individuals feel that their lives have been genuinely oppressed by a "patriarchy" or other male agenda? So I would like to hear some points of view.

Obviously I have seen individual cases of discrimination but I would not of considered it the social norm and so viewed it as a couple of individuals rather than Irish society as a whole, just the same as when I see a couple of Irish people being racist I do not view Irish society as a whole as racist so while I reckon nearly every Irish woman has experienced some cases of gender based discrimination their way I am more looking for this idea of a dominantly society pervading agenda of female oppression and patriarchy establishment and retention of power?

So do you ladies view Irish society as expressly patriarchal and feel genuinely oppressed at your place in society due to your gender? or do you feel society as a whole is fine and it is just some individuals with discriminate beliefs?

seenitall

If we are talking in terms of say, EU, (and bear that in mind ), yes, Ireland is IMO definitely, a very patriarchal society.

From the very high percentage of mothers who can't afford to work as the child-care is so prohibitevely expensive, via the very low percentage of female elected representatives, and the (il)legal status of abortion in this country, to the more subtle, societal ways of reinforcing gender stereoptyping (in what way should a woman dress, what kind of a job she should have etc.), to the still alarmingly high amount (again, IMO ) of out-dated and developmentally regressive number of single-sex schools (not even going into the whole church-school demarcation debate, lol).

It's not all bad, though. I love Ireland as it is my "adoptive" country, and there is, of course, also a few good things to be said about some aspects of tradition (people are geared to at least the principles of "fairness", "charity" and "compassion", something I find lacking in other countries who would, surprisingly have better track-record with gender equality). I really think it almost all boils down to the Catholic thing, both good and bad aspects of it. It is still very (subliminally) pervasive in the Irish mentality, and as long as it is, so will the patriarchal views on women be. <- maybe something wrong with the construction of that last sentence but feck it, am in a hurry.

Ickle Magoo

Look at the hierarchy of any organisation or even the government here in terms of women being employed in management positions, it's about 40 years behind the rest of the west. Only just introduced pre-school childcare, again, many years after others, pathetic paternity leave - it's all very old fashioned. The whole laundries for girls and less said about the father the better attitude was there for a reason and to a certain extent via contraception (both the banning of and the moral judgement that exists today) and abortion there was/is an effort to control women that just doesn't really exist any more anywhere else I've lived.

There are even less subtle ways like mods telling posters to stop being silly by suggesting "they put their handbags away, or "calm down, ladies". There are a hundred little comments, practices, laws, lack of legislation, habits and cultural oddities that I've picked up on since moving here. On their own they are a bit of a nothing but add them all together and you do get a prevailing sense of patriarchal, sometimes verging on misogynistic, mindset in not unsubstantial portion of the population.

That's not to say it's a concerted effort to oppress women by irish society, that sounds, deliberately I'm guessing, slightly hysterical. It's more subtle than that, either subconscious or just backwards and rather ignorant. I think the church's role in irish society and it's views on sex particularly have a lot to answer for.

Xiney

I see it a lot because I pick up on the differences between Ireland and where I'm from.

Most troubling is the fact that a lot of the patriarchal views seem to be reinforced by women themselves towards other women.

I would echo seenitall in saying that the lack of legal abortion here is pretty much all the proof necessary when you ask "is Ireland Patriarchally Oppressive"

Maguined

I just want to respond to a few points but please do not take this as me saying these points are invalid or incorrect as I do not believe there is a right or wrong answer to this topic just peoples interpretations of society but merely want to get a better understanding as my own reactions to some of these points would be different.

The upper management being mostly men is a carry over of the previous generations discriminatory society, this will more evenly balance out in another generation I believe, from my own personal experience I am 28 and work in the financial sector, While the executive directors are based in another country and are dominantly men the CEO is a woman, however in the middle management for every company I have worked in it has been dominated by women, in fact of all my managers and directors I have had in 3 different financial companies I have only ever had 2 direct male managers/directors for my section and at least 20 female managers/directors so in the future more women will be at the top I believe. This is just my experience however so I can perfectly see how others would see this as still societal patriarchy.

I would disagree on the language and abortion however, yes there are many negative language and sayings regarding women however I also see the same about men so I don't see these things as gender discrimination as it happens to both genders equally in my experience. Abortion I would not consider a patriarchal oppression as I have only ever seen object to it because they believe the foetus is alive so abortion is murder, to me this has nothing to do with oppressing women but preventing in their minds murder, while I do not agree to this opinion myself I still respect their objection is based on preserving their view of life rather than an attempt to control or oppress women.

The womens launderies and churhces involvement in the state I definitely agree with and am glad the former is a thing of the past and want the latter removed from involvement as quickly as possible.

Ickle Magoo

Maguined wrote: »

Abortion I would not consider a patriarchal oppression as I have only ever seen object to it because they believe the foetus is alive so abortion is murder, to me this has nothing to do with oppressing women but preventing in their minds murder, while I do not agree to this opinion myself I still respect their objection is based on preserving their view of life rather than an attempt to control or oppress women.

The point being for me that other countries have a more modern outlook that a womans body is not something that can be controlled by the church's view of morality or what constitutes life - again, a very old fashioned and patriarchal way of deciding laws regardless of what side of the abortion debate you are on.

Xiney

Maguined wrote: »

Maybe as a man I just can't appreciate it from a woman's perspective

Anyway I think you've hit the nail on the head here.

Truley

If something is patriarchal surely that implies it is being imposed by men? I don't consider the lack of abortion a patriarchal oppression because from my experience the most zealous pro-life campaigners in this country have been female. Likewise in the case of magdalene laundries which were largely founded and operated by other women.

On a personal level I can honestly say I have not once in my life felt oppressed or discriminated against because of my gender. In fact, I have largely experienced the opposite.

Maguined

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

The point being for me that other countries have a more modern outlook that a womans body is not something that can be controlled by the church's view of morality or what constitutes life - again, a very old fashioned and patriarchal way of deciding laws regardless of what side of the abortion debate you are on.

But how is it a patriarchal way of deciding laws? as much as i dislike it historically the majority of the people in Ireland were catholic and so as a result the majority of the population would of opposed abortions, this is definitely shifting and I have no doubt that in my lifetime abortion will be legalised in Ireland but I don't see the fact that it is not currently as a form of patriarchal oppression, i see it as the lingering result of majority consensus.

I have also never a pro-lifer that felt abortion laws were to control a womans body or choice in life, all of them view it as preventing a murder and nothing to do with gender discrimination.

Xiney wrote: »

Anyway I think you've hit the nail on the head here.

True which is why i am hoping i can gain some insight and understanding from this topic as i have read many suggestions of patriarchal oppression being very strong in Ireland yet when i compare my own life with my sisters i cannot honestly view her life as being significantly oppressed or discriminated against as opposed to my own.

Again i hope people are not viewing this thread as an attempt on my part to deny it's possibility, i just genuinely can't see it in the lives of those around me so am looking for the experiences of those that believe it is a significant factor in Irish womens lives.

I know i have experienced sexist discrimination for being a man several times in my life but i would consider this the actions of individuals and not a societal wide agenda so i want to learn about the experiences of those that believe it does exist in Irish society.

Ickle Magoo

Maguined wrote: »

But how is it a patriarchal way of deciding laws? as much as i dislike it historically the majority of the people in Ireland were catholic and so as a result the majority of the population would of opposed abortions, this is definitely shifting and I have no doubt that in my lifetime abortion will be legalised in Ireland but I don't see the fact that it is not currently as a form of patriarchal oppression, i see it as the lingering result of majority consensus.

Well no, in modern societies the laws are decided via democratic process, not by a male dominated church pulling the strings of power and having such dire influence on the local populace that the current government are too scared to even put it to a referendum many years after most other countries have.

Maguined wrote: »

I have also never a pro-lifer that felt abortion laws were to control a womans body or choice in life, all of them view it as preventing a murder and nothing to do with gender discrimination.

I don't think this is the appropriate platform for this debate but I think it impossible to do one without also doing the other and it's naive to think otherwise.

I'm not sure why you bothered asking the question if you either don't want to hear the answers or are going to argue every point made, I never understand the point of these threads that ask for peoples experiences and opinions with the express purpose of refuting and rebutting every comment with dogged defensiveness. I moved here from another country and it's something I've noticed, if you don't want to accept that - fine. I accept it will not be everyone's experience or something they have noted, that's my experience and I know from speaking to both irish men and women and men and women from other countries that I'm not alone in that. Over & out.

metrovelvet

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

The point being for me that other countries have a more modern outlook that a womans body is not something that can be controlled by the church's view of morality or what constitutes life - again, a very old fashioned and patriarchal way of deciding laws regardless of what side of the abortion debate you are on.

I totally disagree with this. Historically feminism has opposed abortion. It was in the 1960s when feminism focused on reproductive rights and Larry Leder convinced NOW [National Organisation for Women] to make it an issue for them.

Legalised abortion was for the EMPLOYER, for business, not women. The "rights over your body' was the sales pitch.

Ickle Magoo

That's as may be; I'm looking at why in 2010 Ireland merrily turns a blind eye and gives the "right to travel" to thousands of women to ship over to their neighbour for abortions without having ever addressed the issue via democratic means. In the past the biggest objector to any amendments, referendums or alterations were the male only officiates in the catholic church and the male dominated government despite poll after poll showing the majority of people want more liberal laws regarding abortion.

Sorry Maguined, I didn't want to turn this into an abortion debate.

metrovelvet

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

That's as may be; I'm looking at why in 2010 Ireland merrily turns a blind eye and gives the "right to travel" to thousands of women to ship over to their neighbour for abortions without having ever addressed the issue via democratic means. In the past the biggest objector to any amendments, referendums or alterations were the male only officiates in the catholic church and the male dominated government despite poll after poll showing the majority of people want more liberal laws regarding abortion.

Probably because the politicians needed a place to send the young girls they got pregnant. And they dont want it on their doorstep. Small country and all that.

Yeah, I dont know about those polls you're talking about.

I would see Irish medicine as very patriarchal, but then I would see a lot of the west as patriarchal, especially obstetrics. If there is anything I learned during pregnancy is that I, because I am a woman, am not to be trusted with my own body.

Logical Fallacy

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

That's as may be; I'm looking at why in 2010 Ireland merrily turns a blind eye and gives the "right to travel" to thousands of women to ship over to their neighbour for abortions without having ever addressed the issue via democratic means. In the past the biggest objector to any amendments, referendums or alterations were the male only officiates in the catholic church and the male dominated government despite poll after poll showing the majority of people want more liberal laws regarding abortion.

Sorry Maguined, I didn't want to turn this into an abortion debate.

Because it's Ireland the Irish Government will always take the easiest available option that causes the least fuss and risk for them. This way they don't actually have to do anything, sure the UK is only over there. *points*

JuliusCaesar

metrovelvet wrote: »

I totally disagree with this. Historically feminism has opposed abortion. It was in the 1960s when feminism focused on reproductive rights and Larry Leder convinced NOW [National Organisation for Women] to make it an issue for them.

Legalised abortion was for the EMPLOYER, for business, not women. The "rights over your body' was the sales pitch.

Eh??? Oh no, it wasn't. I was an adult, in a relationship, in Ireland before contraception was legal*. Jeez. Read up some of the accounts of women having their 8th child and not having enough money to feed the others. When a miscarriage was a relief, not a tragedy. Even in the 90s there was again a campaign to stop women travelling to Britain if they were of childbearing age, because they might be going for an abortion.

* At that time if you were single and pregnant you were pretty sunk. If your family was supportive, supportive meant sending you away "to help out Auntie Mary" until you delivered, gave up the baby for adoption, and came home alone. Reproductive rights were and are massively important.

metrovelvet

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Eh??? Oh no, it wasn't. I was an adult, in a relationship, in Ireland before contraception was legal*. Jeez. Read up some of the accounts of women having their 8th child and not having enough money to feed the others. When a miscarriage was a relief, not a tragedy. Even in the 90s there was again a campaign to stop women travelling to Britain if they were of childbearing age, because they might be going for an abortion.

* At that time if you were single and pregnant you were pretty sunk. If your family was supportive, supportive meant sending you away "to help out Auntie Mary" until you delivered, gave up the baby for adoption, and came home alone. Reproductive rights were and are massively important.

Abortion isn't birth control.

Ickle Magoo

metrovelvet wrote: »

Yeah, I dont know about those polls you're talking about.

These are the most recent. The polls have shown a growing trend since the referendum in 2002 which was almost a decade after tens of thousands marched to protest that a suicidal under-age rape victim might seek an abortion that wouldn't criminalise her. In the end the country voted and rejected the government, :eek: yes, that's right, the governments proposal (after much lobbying from, yes, you've guessed it - the RCC) to further restrict women's access to abortion.

ifpa poll

irish examiner poll

Maguined

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Well no, in modern societies the laws are decided via democratic process, not by a male dominated church pulling the strings of power and having such dire influence on the local populace that the current government are too scared to even put it to a referendum many years after most other countries have.

Yes but a referendum requiring a change in constitution is normally only brought forward when there is significant public demand for it, I think we are getting close and as a pro-choice person I hope we get that referendum but that doesn't mean I think there is some conspiracy to prevent it, the majority of citizens up until a few years basically did not support it. The polls you suggested are extremely recent, a few in the last couple of years had:

A 1997 Irish Times/MRBI poll found that 18% believe that abortion should never be permitted, 77% believed that it should be allowed in certain circumstances (this was broken down into: 35% that one should be allowed in the event that the woman's life is threatened; 14% if her health is at risk; 28% that "an abortion should be provided to those who need it") and 5% were undecided.[1]
A September 2004 Royal College of Surgeons survey for the Crisis Pregnancy Agency found that, in the under-45 age groups, 51% supported abortion on-demand, with 39% favouring the right to abortion in limited circumstances. Only 8% felt that abortion should not be permitted in any circumstances.[2]
A September 2005 Irish Examiner/Lansdowne poll found that 36% believe abortion should be legalized while 47% do not. [3]
A June 2007 TNS/MRBI poll found that 43% supported legal abortion if a woman believed it was in her best interest while 51% remained opposed. 82% favoured legalization for cases when the woman's life is in danger, 75% when the fetus cannot survive outside the womb, and 73% when the pregnancy has resulted from sexual abuse.[4]

So yes it is definitely heading that way I don't think there was a significant enough demand from the public to warrant such a referendum in the past so i don't view it as patriarchal oppression just what the majority of the population were happy with at the time.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I don't think this is the appropriate platform for this debate but I think it impossible to do one without also doing the other and it's naive to think otherwise.

But the primary motivation is what is primarily important, i honestly don't view the average pro-lifer as being part of a partriarchy that wishes to control womens bodies, but simply view a fertilized egg as life and so view abortion as murder.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I'm not sure why you bothered asking the question if you either don't want to hear the answers or are going to argue every point made, I never understand the point of these threads that ask for peoples experiences and opinions with the express purpose of refuting and rebutting every comment with dogged defensiveness. I moved here from another country and it's something I've noticed, if you don't want to accept that - fine. I accept it will not be everyone's experience or something they have noted, that's my experience and I know from speaking to both irish men and women and men and women from other countries that I'm not alone in that. Over & out.

I do want to hear answers, but in order to understand more and learn as much as possible i have to get into the nitty gritty by pointing out how i might view the same situation differently and then getting more information or a better counterpoint, the more i ask and the more opinions i get, the more i will learn.

Maguined

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

That's as may be; I'm looking at why in 2010 Ireland merrily turns a blind eye and gives the "right to travel" to thousands of women to ship over to their neighbour for abortions without having ever addressed the issue via democratic means. In the past the biggest objector to any amendments, referendums or alterations were the male only officiates in the catholic church and the male dominated government despite poll after poll showing the majority of people want more liberal laws regarding abortion.

Sorry Maguined, I didn't want to turn this into an abortion debate.

That's okay, we are not really getting into an abortion is right or wrong debate but more discussing whether anti-abortion is really patriarchal reinforcement or not which is definitely part of what i am trying to look at, how two people can look at the same situation and one see gender discrimination and control and the other not, so this difference is what i wanted to look at.

metrovelvet

Maguined wrote: »

That's okay, we are not really getting into an abortion is right or wrong debate but more discussing whether anti-abortion is really patriarchal reinforcement or not which is definitely part of what i am trying to look at, how two people can look at the same situation and one see gender discrimination and control and the other not, so this difference is what i wanted to look at.

I do not see anti abortion as patriarchal reinforcement. I see pro abortion as suiting free enterprise and the patriarchal [and feudal] structures of business because they dont want to pay for maternity leave and have the hassle of having to accommodate mothers.

ztoical

Maguined wrote: »

Obviously I have seen individual cases of discrimination but I would not of considered it the social norm and so viewed it as a couple of individuals rather than Irish society as a whole, just the same as when I see a couple of Irish people being racist I do not view Irish society as a whole as racist so while I reckon nearly every Irish woman has experienced some cases of gender based discrimination their way I am more looking for this idea of a dominantly society pervading agenda of female oppression and patriarchy establishment and retention of power?

So do you ladies view Irish society as expressly patriarchal and feel genuinely oppressed at your place in society due to your gender? or do you feel society as a whole is fine and it is just some individuals with discriminate beliefs?

Back over 30 years ago my mother started working as a GP and at the time had nothing but road blocks thrown up in front of her. She was told over and over that no one would go to a female GP and as she was married she should focus now on having babies. When she tells me about this I always think yeah but that was 30 years ago, surely now the country has changed and the fact that your a GP with a well established business you no longer have to deal with this and the sad answer is no, it hasn't changed. On a daily basis she has to keep proving herself to people. I've spoken with a number of GP's and all the female ones find the same attitude. About 10 years ago she took on a partner, a male GP and the minute she did the members of the town county council, the local TD and the GAA board whom she worked with for over 10+ years stopped calling her and called him. She had to go down and fight with them over it. She was the senior doctor but because he was male they directed all questions and comments towards him and her input was ignored. I can't even put into words the attitude these people in authority have towards her and other female business owners in the town. It's not a case of one off discrimination but it's also something thats hard to put into words, people hold up examples of females in high positions as proof that there is no discrimination but they have to put so much more effort in to get somewhere, I have such respect for mother as it would have been so easy to just say feck it why bother.

metrovelvet

If I go into the bank with my brother to talk about MY MONEY. They talk to him.

And don't get me started on doctors, cops, and plumbers in this country.

ztoical

metrovelvet wrote: »

If I go into the bank with my brother to talk about MY MONEY. They talk to him.

When my mother started a business account for HER business all her statements arrived to our house addressed to my dad. She went down to the bank and explained it was her business and nothing to do with her husband but still the statements came addressed to him. After several attempts including my dad going down and telling them she closed the account and moved it to another bank and even then they couldn't understand what her problem was, surely your husband lives with you so you'll get the statements ugh!

coffee_cake

ztoical wrote: »

When my mother started a business account for HER business all her statements arrived to our house addressed to my dad. She went down to the bank and explained it was her business and nothing to do with her husband but still the statements came addressed to him. After several attempts including my dad going down and telling them she closed the account and moved it to another bank and even then they couldn't understand what her problem was, surely your husband lives with you so you'll get the statements ugh!

I remember my grandmother having a fit about the same thing (personal account)!
She ate them out of it and they finally stopped :mad:

Chuchoter

Patriarchy has changed in Ireland. Its definitely there, but its much quieter and subtle. I think abortion is less an issue of 'patriarchy' and a lack of respect for women, not inherently related to men. I would say that yes, I do feel oppressed as a woman for the following reasons

1. The Rape Culture. I should not have to be afraid of going out in the dark or being alone with men, but I am and I am taught to be so. Rape is one of the few crimes where the victim more often than not blamed, and conviction rates are incredibly low. I think male on male rape is viewed as more serious and shocking, which proposes that womens bodies (and their boundaries) have less integrity than mens, and are to some extent, someone else's property, which leads me on to my next point.

2. Abortion. My body is mine. I attach no value to a bundle of cells with no consciousness, and I resent being told I can't decide what gets to live in it. I resent being told I am held prisoner by my body's capabilities. What bothers me even more is idiots who go on about "Abortion is ok in case of rape/disease etc" either human life is inherently valuable or its not, frankly I don't think it is.

3. Children! Women are expected to have children. If they have no desire to have children,they're viewed as strange. If they have kids but spend loads of time at work (ie they are surgeons or something) they are viewed as terrible people. Take a man who doesn't want kids/ focuses on his career. Little to no judgement is passed on him.

4. Lack of respect. I feel that more often than men, women are portrayed as stupid, fickle, bitchy, shallow, weak and incompetent. Women rarely play the hero in anything. They always seem to need a man to step in and send them in the right direction. Nobody watches womens sports, women politicians are ridiculed more often for their looks (take Mary Harney) than their skills or lack thereof.

5. Sexuality. Teenage girls do not expect orgasms, they see themselves purely for their boyfriends pleasure. Female sexuality (in general) is taboo. Women are not expected to masturbate or watch porn. I also get annoyed that you hear "Butch lesbians just want to be men/Why not just go out with a man?" or "You just haven't met the right kind of guy yet" a HELL OF A LOT more than I hear it said about gay men. Womens sexuality and men are viewed as mutually inclusive.

seenitall

Maguined wrote: »

That's okay, we are not really getting into an abortion is right or wrong debate but more discussing whether anti-abortion is really patriarchal reinforcement or not which is definitely part of what i am trying to look at, how two people can look at the same situation and one see gender discrimination and control and the other not, so this difference is what i wanted to look at.

Of course abortion is a gender equality issue, anyone who thinks otherwise, at best, incredibly naive. (Sorry about that, Maguined , just my opinion!)

To quote myself directly from the recent post in the Humanities:

I also believe that no way in heck would abortion have ever been illegal anywhere, if it were men having to carry pregnancies. In other words: it is also a gender equality issue. Evidence: the only countries in the Western world where abortion is still illegal are ones that are greatly patriarchal (by way of a strong and influential Christian Church).

Remember that it has been a man's world for many, many centuries. Something like that cannot be reversed overnight. It is moving in a good direction, at least.

rantyface

crayolastereo wrote: »

Patriarchy has changed in Ireland. Its definitely there, but its much quieter and subtle. I think abortion is less an issue of 'patriarchy' and a lack of respect for women, not inherently related to men. I would say that yes, I do feel oppressed as a woman for the following reasons

1. The Rape Culture. I should not have to be afraid of going out in the dark or being alone with men, but I am and I am taught to be so.

Men are FAR more likely to be the victims of violent assault than women. Women are generally safer than men on nights out. Anyway, most rapes are by someone the victim knows and not randomly out on the street so you're more likely to be raped at home by your dad or your brother or uncle or husband than by a stranger in the city late at night. If you are afraid of being out at night it's because you're paranoid, not because it's actually dangerous.

donfers

ztoical wrote: »

Back over 30 years ago my mother started working as a GP and at the time had nothing but road blocks thrown up in front of her. She was told over and over that no one would go to a female GP and as she was married she should focus now on having babies. When she tells me about this I always think yeah but that was 30 years ago, surely now the country has changed and the fact that your a GP with a well established business you no longer have to deal with this and the sad answer is no, it hasn't changed. On a daily basis she has to keep proving herself to people. I've spoken with a number of GP's and all the female ones find the same attitude. About 10 years ago she took on a partner, a male GP and the minute she did the members of the town county council, the local TD and the GAA board whom she worked with for over 10+ years stopped calling her and called him. She had to go down and fight with them over it. She was the senior doctor but because he was male they directed all questions and comments towards him and her input was ignored. I can't even put into words the attitude these people in authority have towards her and other female business owners in the town. It's not a case of one off discrimination but it's also something thats hard to put into words, people hold up examples of females in high positions as proof that there is no discrimination but they have to put so much more effort in to get somewhere, I have such respect for mother as it would have been so easy to just say feck it why bother.

fair enough but most of my friends were studying medicine a few years ago and have since become doctors, the girls are always teasing the guys because the girls have more patients...basically the consensus is that if a guy goes to the doctor, he is not fussy and doesn't mind if he sees a male or female gp, but my friends say that more women are concerned about the sex of the gp they visit and make more requests to seek out a female gp for whatever reason (friends have debated this and said women are more sensitive about body issues etc). Anyway the point is that this group of people, of mixed genders are constantly alluding to this trend where women actively seek out female gps and men don't really mind, thus women gps have access to a greater pool of patients.

Now of course this is just one observation from one group of people and is as valid as your observation about the discrimination your mother faced 30 years ago. Perhaps even more valid as the observation I mention is happening today, not 30 years ago. But you know what, I am not going to preach about injustice and discrimination because these issues are never that simple. They depend on a multitude of factors, from where the practice is located (urban or rural) to the social class of the patients to the mood of the gp on the day to the weather to if the magazines in the waiting room were to everybodys liking to a million other things.

The point, is that it is the easiest thing in the world to look for injustice/ "indiscrimination" and dress it under whatever banner fits your political agenda but that's just boring, unhelpful and more often than not disingenuous.

The fact is, that people are **** sometimes, it's not because of your colour or sex or nationality or strange facial hair...it's because people are **** sometimes.

Maguined

crayolastereo wrote: »

1. The Rape Culture. I should not have to be afraid of going out in the dark or being alone with men, but I am and I am taught to be so. Rape is one of the few crimes where the victim more often than not blamed, and conviction rates are incredibly low. I think male on male rape is viewed as more serious and shocking, which proposes that womens bodies (and their boundaries) have less integrity than mens, and are to some extent, someone else's property, which leads me on to my next point.

But is rape not perpetrated by individuals and not endorsed by a society? I would completely agree in the past when they had those nonsense laws that a man could not be convicted of raping his wife as he basically had rights over her body but in todays society i would find everyone would view rape as abhorrent so would not view it as a social oppression but the acts of evil individuals?

crayolastereo wrote: »

3. Children! Women are expected to have children. If they have no desire to have children,they're viewed as strange. If they have kids but spend loads of time at work (ie they are surgeons or something) they are viewed as terrible people. Take a man who doesn't want kids/ focuses on his career. Little to no judgement is passed on him.

Yes but a man who wants to stay at home and mind children also has judgement passed on him, in fact a man wanting to be a nurse or primary school teacher also has judgements passed on him so while both genders face stereotyping would it really be considered oppression when both sides have to deal with it just in different ways? I'm not stating this as fact, just a thought.

crayolastereo wrote: »

4. Lack of respect. I feel that more often than men, women are portrayed as stupid, fickle, bitchy, shallow, weak and incompetent. Women rarely play the hero in anything. They always seem to need a man to step in and send them in the right direction. Nobody watches womens sports, women politicians are ridiculed more often for their looks (take Mary Harney) than their skills or lack thereof.

I think this is definitely always going to be a grass is greener on the other side, from my point of view men are always painted as stupid and feckless and need to be told what to do by women but then i would be more aware of negative male stereotypes just as women would be more aware of negative female stereotypes so i don't think anyone could be objective and see who gets it worst overall in society.

Sports are different though in my opinion, men generally dominate sporting activities due to generally higher physical capabilities and people tend to watch the best at the given field, just as the average Irish fan of football watches the english premier league because they are dramatically better than our own national league.

crayolastereo wrote: »

5. Sexuality. Teenage girls do not expect orgasms, they see themselves purely for their boyfriends pleasure. Female sexuality (in general) is taboo. Women are not expected to masturbate or watch porn. I also get annoyed that you hear "Butch lesbians just want to be men/Why not just go out with a man?" or "You just haven't met the right kind of guy yet" a HELL OF A LOT more than I hear it said about gay men. Womens sexuality and men are viewed as mutually inclusive.

To be honest i think the main reason female sexuality being taboo is women themselves, from my generation i have never met a man who wanted a more repressed sexuality in a woman or complains how sexually adventurous a woman was. I would agree with the men giving out about "butch lesbians" after trying their arm but would you feel that this is because society is not as accepting of womens homosexuality? to be honest in my opinion think it would be far more likely that it is insecure men who after having their advances rejected lash out, i see it all the time when a guy gets rejected by a straight woman as well and feels he needs to soothe his ego by making a joke of his advances in the first place or more likely insulting the women to pretend he was never interested in the first place.

Thanks for your responses, and please don't take my responses as criticism of your experiences just throwing my interpretations into the mix.

All the situations people mentioned about women running business i completely agree with, i could forgive a couple of male patients being nervous and insecure with a female doctor if they had some intimate issues but what was mentioned was definitely beyond that and probably a clear indication of gender bias.

holystungun9

As a guy I suppose that I may not notice as much but I do feel it is there. From a different angle, I am working in a school in South America and I can say that it certainly is more blatant here. Girls and women are clearly subservient (yes, I know by generalizing I am screwing up the facts a bit). The guys would ordinarily have dibs on everything and the girls would sit back leaving the guys get the things they want.(e.g. sports gear or school supplies etc.) And they would choose from the rest. It is a question of awareness and respect.

ztoical

donfers wrote: »

The point, is that it is the easiest thing in the world to look for injustice/ "indiscrimination" and dress it under whatever banner fits your political agenda but that's just boring, unhelpful and more often than not disingenuous.

I was not and my mother certainly does not go looking for discrimination. Like I said it's something thats hard to put into words and explain to someone who has not had to put up with it. This is something that she and other women have put with and are still putting up with as business women. 30 years go yes she got told no one would go to a a female doctor and that attitude has changed alot in recent years - more down to women being more in control of their own health issues but the area were it has not is in the polictical side of things as seen with dealings with the like of the town county council, the church and the GAA board etc. She was the doctor for the Tipperary hurling team for two seasons but stepped down as it just wasn't worth the consent agro - going to cork for a match not being allowed into the stadium by officals and when she said she was the team doctor the guy goes no your not your a woman. The people who "dress" things up are the ones who use it as an excuse and don't try. My mother has never blamed anyone, or used being a woman as an excuse ever. She was told no one would go to her as GP she said feck them and started her business anyway and now has one of the largest GP practices in the country [according to the Irish Indo], she has worked very bloody hard and too right gets miffed when someone who hasn't put the time and effort in gets the respect she has earned. I asked her honestly about what it was like starting her business and she told me honestly, she wasn't moaning or making excuses just saying what happened and what still happens.