How's our driving? (Feedback for the forum)

seamus

I couldn't think of a good animal-related pun to stick in the thread title.

This is a thread, where you guys get to have your say. The Animals & Pet Issues forum (and associated subforums) does not belong to the moderators. You do not come here and discuss based on our rules - we set our rules based on the what, how, why and where of the community's discussions.
This is a community, boards.ie is no longer a single community it is a set of small communities built around specific issues and topics, and this forum can easily call itself a community. People here have obtained help, advice and even friendship from others they would not have known except for this community.

So it's vital that you get to decide what's best for the community rather than having us guessing based on past experience. The moderators are members of the A&P community, here to facilitate the discussion and maintain the forum as a friendly place for open discourse. We are not here to make rules at random and dictate how the forum operates. The rules should reflect how the community wants the forum to operate and in doing so allow the community to grow and improve.

Because this post is already getting too long and people tend not to read all the way to the bottom, I'll start with:

What this thread is not for

This thread is not for discussing specific problems such as:

• Why was I banned?
• Why was my post deleted?
• Moderator <X> appears to have a problem with me/my posts/his attitude
• Poster <x> is a pain in the ass and should be banned
• Thread <x> should have been locked a week ago

These problems can be raised through PMing one of the moderators, who can deal with it. These things don't need community input, therefore they do not need to be here. I will delete any such posts and ask the poster to discuss it via PM.

This thread is for you guys to say, "More of <this> and less of <that>" or "I'd like see more engagement with <group y>", or "Rule <x> in the charter is too restrictive, maybe we should amend it to <y>" or, "There are too many stickies. I would suggest merging x, y, & z".

That last suggestion is an important example - suggestions are equally as important as problems. You can say there's too many stickies, for example, but if you can't suggest a way of sorting it, then you're just venting
Sometimes you can't think of a way to fix something, that's OK, but please be up-front - "I think this needs to be done differently because it's not working right now, but I can't come up with a way of doing it".

You won't get banned for being honest here - but lay off any personal comments. This is not somewhere to badmouth other posters or mods. If you must provide an example of what you're talking about, provide more than one example across multiple threads and users. We're looking for a discussion on general problems here. If you think a single user is causing problems, then that's a specific issue and you can PM a moderator.

We'll leave this thread here to simmer for a while. How long? Dunno. Depends on the amount of discussion I guess. At some point I'll compile a summary of things to work on and we'll discuss it and set about working on what can be made better.
Then we'll do a new thread a few months after that and start the feedback process again.

pH

For one thing I dislike the forum being called "Issues" - it makes it seem like it's for discussing problems -why not call it what it is - pet and animals.

Oh and I hate the pre-moderated section - if other far more controversial forums can do without it then pets and animals should be able too also - it seems like a bit of a mod power trip tbh.

is it time for dogs (well dog owners!) to have their own forum? -

mymo

Some time ago there was a sticky with animal care sheets and advice, it had links to pages and sites with more info. There are always people looking for info on certain animals so maybe we could bring it back.
There are a lot of stickies, but not sure how to fix that, maybe join up all the ones about rules and posting under a new name?
Tbh its not that big a thing to scroll down really.

irish1967

Just a thought. With some of the shocking cruelty stories in the news recently that have been discussed here maybe a NSFP ( not safe for petlovers) notification could be added to relevant threads titles.
Some members can get very upset at the cruelty posts and at least this would give warning.

toadfly

I think the premoderated forum ruins the threads to a certain degree. Some threads get moved there and then there is very little activity on them after that. There are also a lot of threads in there that (IMO) they could be in the general section.

**Vai**

Most of the problems people ask seem to be the same 10 or 20 questions really. Maybe a FAQ sticky to stop this happening? U know, stuff like why is my dog barking constantly, how to toilet train, why wont my dog walk on a leash etc.
Also, I dont generally use the pre mod section, not because its a pre mod section but simply coz its totally separate in my eyes.

Otherwise its the best run and most enjoyable section of boards imho.

adser53

I havnt got any suggestions but thought id post to say I agree with the sentiments above about the pre-modded section. A lot of threads fade prematurely there. I also like the idea of a dog sub forum as I would say the majority of posts here are dog related. I know there are many dog only forums out there but boards is generally the first port of call for animal lovers and sometimes threads can be overcome with non-dog owners venting their issues that dont directly relate to the thread topic (dogs on/off leash for example).
and a sticky covering the most common questions that pop up here would be great. Some seem to come up every week.

Just my 2 cents .

D'oh, vai got there before me

Cookie_Monster

pH wrote: »

For one thing I dislike the forum being called "Issues" - it makes it seem like it's for discussing problems -why not call it what it is - pet and animals.

+1

is it time for dogs (well dog owners!) to have their own forum? -

+1 also.

I don't really use the Pre mod forum so no comments on that.

As for modship, no probs there that I've come across.

anniehoo

pH wrote: »

Oh and I hate the pre-moderated section - if other far more controversial forums can do without it then pets and animals should be able too also-

+1 I rarely look at it as the threads move too slow.But it has improved over recent weeks with the new mods.

Also agree with the "FAQS" Stickie. Similar questions are asked alot, so itd be good to maybe move the question to the FAQ section so we dont have repeat ourselves. Could be broken up into individual sections for dogs,cats,smallies,etc

I liked the crackdown on "off topic and intimidating" posts lately so pat on the back there for the mods.

Love the Stickies at the top so i wouldnt remove any of them either.

Overall no major probs and is my favourite forum on Boards

Cherry Blossom

Again with the Pre-mod section, pehaps don't allow new posts and only have ones moved to there by moderators? New posts are still a bit slow to get posted there, it seems none of the mods look at it all over the weekend and nothing at all happens on it between a Friday afternoon and Monday morning. As others have said most threads are dog (and a few cat) related but rather than having a seperate forum for dog owners which makes up the bulk of posts I'd maybe like to see a seperate one for small animals (the sort that live in cages) as anyone interested in this would be able to find the older posts a lot more easily especially if they are just browsing for info.

<ETA>Appreciate this opportunity to give feedback, Thanks!

seamus

I never considered the idea of separating out dogs (or other creatures), even though we've done it already for reptilians.

Would the removal of dog-related discussion kill the main forum, or if we were to create a "small creatures" forum, would this cause the main forum to become dominated by dog/cats threads?

Not ignoring any other points made, just massaging some discussion...

Cherry Blossom

I think the main forum is already dominated by cat/dog threads. Personally I wouldn't have a seperate section for cat/dog threads as this would then become the 'main' area, meaning threads particularly from newcommers that would then appear in the now cat/dog free area would be missed by most people. There are also a few animal welfare type questions comming up in the main area that may be missed by the bulk of posters if they had cat/dog areas they could go straight to. I like the aquarium/vivarium/terranium seperate area as you can easily find info you are looking for quite quickly and think this would work equally as well for smallies. I'm also thinking of people who stumble on boards as a resource and then join. Threads here come up a lot in google searches This is actually how I discovered API even though I was already a user of some of the other boards forums I'd never actually looked to see what else was on here!

sambuka41

Yeah i dont think its a good idea to have a separate dog forum,i have a cat and a dog and wouldn't like to have to go between both for info or to read others stories. I think the forum would die off a little if you did.

In relation to the pre moderated forum, I would agree that it takes a while to get posts approved there,and threads do seem to die off a bit due to the lack of regular posting.

Whispered

Happier in this forum than I have been for a long time to be honest. It's seeming a bit friendlier lately or something.

Regarding the pre-modded area, I wouldn't agree with it being a power trip, some issues are really emotive and most people are passionate about their pets. A very difficult to discuss issue can easily be clouded by people who are being agressive, or intentionally misreading posts. I think the premod area is a good cool down place, where people can disagree with less of the sillyness. I've also seen recently a thread which while not about welfare, was attracting very negative comments where it really shouldn't have been. (owner in a very difficult situation) The premod area allowed the owner get the help she needed without having to fight every second post.

Maybe a sub forum with FAQ's would be an idea? Like a to do list before getting a pet, breeding & how to choose a breeder, new designer breeds and their pros and cons, training, feeding, behavioural problems etc. A few issues with threads started but without the facility to start new subjects - thus keeping all of the info together?

I think if you seperate dogs, you might effectively kill the forum.

Can I just say that it's a pleasure being modded by you Seamus and I think you're doing a great job of being firm but fair and well done on putting up with the rest of us!! I think the moderation as it is is pretty much spot on.

/suck up

anniehoo

Veterinary teaching is broken up into topics:

• Small Animal (medical and surgery)-could be all Companion Animal related.
• Large Animal (medical and surgery)-generally Farm Animal
• Behaviour-training,obedience,issues with both
• Nutrition-diet,effects of diet, conditions related to nutrition
• Welfare-issues with strays, neighbours pets, animal law and regulations etc, lost and found pets
• Exotics-avians, reptiles,arachnids etc
• Marine
• Funnies and Chat (ok that bit isnt in Veterinary) but...

Just an idea

boomerang

Very happy with the forum since the new mods came on board... Was delighted to see the pre-moderated forum retitled from "animal welfare" - that irked me! I do think the pre-moderated forum is essential for emotive threads as I wouldn't like to get boards admin into trouble with libel/slander etc. It also has the effect of making people think twice about what they're going to say before they post on an argumentative thread, so there's less need for mod intervention. Also think it makes great sense to have a separate area of the forum for fish and exotics so well done mods!

ETA: My only issue with stickies is that in some threads people are given very poor advice - especially with regards to training and behavioural problems. I would be worried that making the thread a sticky would lend credence to punitive, aversive methods that should have gone the way of the dinosaurs. Just my IMO.

Hellrazer

Im just going to comment on the pre-modded forum for anyone whos unsure why its there.

The main reason is because some posts have mentioned companies/rehoming agencies/corporations by name in a not so good manner.

Some of these companies have threathened legal action against boards.ie and at the admins request we have to try and lessen the impact of these threats.

The second reason is because some users cannot take a mods warning on thread regarding personal abuse and basic rule breaking.

All the above was posted by the mods here before we implemented the pre-modded forum but even after we asked peeps to report posts,stop breaking the rules etc it still continued so we had no choice to introduce the pre-approval forum which allows us to see the posts before they appear in the forum.

The admins on boards gave us an option of either pre approval of posts or the forum was gone altogether forever.

Aswell as what Ive said above the ordinary user doesnt see what goes on in the background of boards.ie and I feel that this contributes to the percieved problems when we remove a thread/post.

Sometimes we have to remove a post or thread without explanation which is usually due to a threat of legal action against boards which we cant go into in more detail.

I hope this post answers a few peoples questions.

Calhoun

Love the forum, i am not much of a poster more of a lurker as it is a brilliant resource of information. My feedback:

I would like to see more of the crackdown on as Anniehoo mentions intimidating posts. This was really bad for quite some time and it was at a stage that any newbie if they looked at this forum would not ask a question as the responses could be down right agressive.

I would like a more well rounded pre-moderated section, i feel that a recent thread where as described by another poster "the OP got the help they needed" was particularly skewered in the direction of the OP even though what was being posted was down right agressive. I can sympathise with why it was done but the comments that were being made warranted some comeback, maybe personal issues or a PI section for animal berevement would be more suited to that kind of thread.

Anyway thats it hope it helps

blondie7

i think this forum could do with a sort of contacts thread, people are constantly posting here wondering about good vets in certain areas and boarding kennels etc. Perhaps a thread where people could add there recommendations? (perhaps this could be pre-moderated)

ppink

I there is a shortage of fun stuff on this board. I am sure there are better folks than me to come up with some ideas but did think if a "guess the breed" thread .......or even the animal? If I say post the pic of a paw then people try to guess the breed. We could even say if the breed is guessed correctly in the first 10 posts €5 to a local charity to be given by the OP. It would of course be dependant on the honesty of the OP to give the money. What do you think, would it work? It is just off the top of my head there may be some other better ideas.

I also think similar to Calhoun and Anniehoo about the intimidating posts. In fact I think :mad: :eek: :rolleyes: should not be directed to other posters at all, as for one it makes me just tune out and I am sure it makes those looking for help tune out too.

Like others, although I see the need for the pre-mod section I dont tend to post there much, not sure what the answer is to that!
Just my 2 cents

liah

Mods need to get a better handle on the preaching that goes on in this forum. It turns so many people away and in all honesty is just embarrassing to watch. I know you all care very deeply for animals (as do I) but there's really no reason at all to be so biting and judgmental all the time.

You can provide information without being condescending. There's no excuse.

A FAQ would be a good idea, too.

Cherry Blossom

ppink wrote: »

I there is a shortage of fun stuff on this board. I am sure there are better folks than me to come up with some ideas

Some fun stuff here for you

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056062749

The official thread will appear in around 2 weeks time!

Discodog

I think that Seamus is doing an excellent job. As for the intimidation element I agree that we should not be bullying but a group of people expressing the same opinion does not constitute "ganging up".

Animal issues are emotive & it can be difficult to be well mannered when someone expresses a view or opinion that opposes animal welfare. I welcome the comments of those who do not necessarily have a welfare agenda & encourage healthy debate.

I did wonder about a sticky to cover Animal Law as so many posters seem unaware of the legal situation. This is especially relevant when people lose or find a dog & are unaware of their legal obligations.

Hellrazer

Discodog wrote: »

I think that Seamus is doing an excellent job.

Agreed hes give a new feel to the forum.

As for the intimidation element I agree that we should not be bullying but a group of people expressing the same opinion does not constitute "ganging up".

Its not about "giving an opinion".Its about the way that that opinion is given ie telling a user that they should have done their research BEFORE getting the cat/dog/elephant.The way I look at it is that at that stage its too late and we should really be helping minimise the damage.
Lecturing people doesnt help either especially not on a web forum.
Just my 2 cents.

Animal issues are emotive & it can be difficult to be well mannered when someone expresses a view or opinion that opposes animal welfare.

I feel the same way.But sometimes you have to bite your tongue and try and be civil about it.

I welcome the comments of those who do not necessarily have a welfare agenda & encourage healthy debate.

That you do but there are other who seem to ram their opinion down other users throats and thats what I find unacceptable.

I did wonder about a sticky to cover Animal Law as so many posters seem unaware of the legal situation. This is especially relevant when people lose or find a dog & are unaware of their legal obligations.

Thats actually quite a good idea.Maybe one that also covers the cruelty laws aswell.

And someone mentioned a FAQ--That would also be a great idea.
If anyone wants to help in drawing up either feel free and we`ll sticky it and credit the user for it.

builttospill

liah wrote: »

Mods need to get a better handle on the preaching that goes on in this forum. It turns so many people away and in all honesty is just embarrassing to watch. I know you all care very deeply for animals (as do I) but there's really no reason at all to be so biting and judgmental all the time.

You can provide information without being condescending. There's no excuse.

A FAQ would be a good idea, too.

Yeah, the preaching makes me want to vomit sometimes. I'm an avid reader of this forum and I have pets but I rarely post here cos of one or two posters constantly taking the moral high ground no matter what the topic is. Actually there is one poster in particular who is an absolute joke and should be slapped on the wrists for being an inadvertent troll. Every single day I see some poor poster getting hounded for something irrelevant to the question they are asking. It's pathetic.

Hellrazer

builttospill wrote: »

Yeah, the preaching makes me want to vomit sometimes. I'm an avid reader of this forum and I have pets but I rarely post here cos of one or two posters constantly taking the moral high ground no matter what the topic is.

This is the type of thing that Id like stamped out entirely.As I mentioned in a previous thread I dont want any poster to feel that they cannot post in this forum because of fear of bullying from other users.

Actually there is one poster in particular who is an absolute joke and should be slapped on the wrists for being an inadvertent troll.

Us mods cant act unless the post or user is reported.So next time you feel like someone is being bullied--Please report the post and it will be acted on.

Every single day I see some poor poster getting hounded for something irrelevant to the question they are asking. It's pathetic.

Again report the post for being "off topic"
As I said above we can only act on a post if its reported.We cannot read every single post in the whole forum on a daily basis.Personally I try to skim over every new thread most day but evidently we can miss things which is why we urge users to report posts/threads.

builttospill

Hellrazer wrote: »

This is the type of thing that Id like stamped out entirely.As I mentioned in a previous thread I dont want any poster to feel that they cannot post in this forum because of fear of bullying from other users.





Us mods cant act unless the post or user is reported.So next time you feel like someone is being bullied--Please report the post and it will be acted on.



Again report the post for being "off topic"
As I said above we can only act on a post if its reported.We cannot read every single post in the whole forum on a daily basis.Personally I try to skim over every new thread most day but evidently we can miss things which is why we urge users to report posts/threads.

Of course. I know this. But you see it's quite hard to report a post if the offender doesn't mean to offend and actually thinks they are being helpful in some misguided way.

When it comes to animals it is completely acceptable in this day and age and indeed on this forum to be overly PC to the point of militancy.

I think it's a problem that isn't going to go away cos it's bred into people that they are doing or saying the right thing when it comes to criticising posters for a lack of knowledge with regards to animals.

I'm not one for reporting posts especially when I just find them annoying or pathetic more than anything else. I just choose to avoid it. I imagine there are a lot of people like me who are turned off from posting here because of this.

Perhaps the mods could be more hands on with dealing with these high and mighty types and act accordingly to their own discretion.

Hellrazer

builttospill wrote: »

Of course. I know this. But you see it's quite hard to report a post if the offender doesn't mean to offend and actually thinks they are being helpful in some misguided way.

I agree that some members of the animal welfare community can be quite militant and feel that they are doing the right thing.However if the militant attitude is turning people off using the forum then its not acceptable.

I'm not one for reporting posts especially when I just find them annoying or pathetic more than anything else. I just choose to avoid it.I imagine there are a lot of people like me who are turned off from posting here because of this.

Let me just say one thing.All reported posts are read by the mods and if we feel that its out of line then we do something about it.There are times when we wont act if the post is contributing to the debate thats going on.

Perhaps the mods could be more hands on with dealing with these high and mighty types and act accordingly to their own discretion.

We cant just ban someone because we dislike them or feel that they are being "high and mighty or militant".However if they break the rules then we punish them.
A lot of the animal welfare users here actually contribute a great deal to the forum and yes there are times when we have to balance that with their "high and mighty or militant" attitude.

All I can say is that if you feel a post is out of line then report it and we will deal with it on an individual basis but dont let this put you off posting in the forum.

builttospill

Hellrazer wrote: »

We cant just ban someone because we dislike them or feel that they are being "high and mighty or militant".However if they break the rules then we punish them.
A lot of the animal welfare users here actually contribute a great deal to the forum and yes there are times when we have to balance that with their "high and mighty or militant" attitude.

All I can say is that if you feel a post is out of line then report it and we will deal with it on an individual basis but dont let this put you off posting in the forum.

No, of course I don't mean you should throw bans around wily nily. I mean more often you could just step in and tell a poster to stick to the topic or tell them to relax with their preaching. I see this egotistical preaching every single day so it's rampant.

Edit: Having said that I actually know what you would say to the above and you'd be right-mods aren't paid and are doing the job out of the goodness of their own hearts so they can't notice every little discrepancy in each thread. Yeah it must be hard. I'm just telling you how I and no doubt loads of other people feel.

Discodog

OK so is there some way that an offended poster could voice their view, on the thread, that a post is "high mighty or militant", if they feel unwilling to report it ?.

Whilst I agree with pretty much everything that Hellrazer has said ( yes the love-in continues !) some posters may regard a post as high & mighty whereas others might see it as common sense. It is a bit in the eyes of the beholder.

Hellrazer

Discodog wrote: »

OK so is there some way that an offended poster could voice their view, on the thread, that a post is "high mighty or militant", if they feel unwilling to report it ?.

Thats not a bad idea either.Its just I could see that descending into chaos.

Whilst I agree with pretty much everything that Hellrazer has said ( yes the love-in continues !)

This keeps up we`ll have to "get a room"

some posters may regard a post as high & mighty whereas others might see it as common sense. It is a bit in the eyes of the beholder.

Agreed but how do you moderate an "opinion"??
Its actually quite hard to do and seems to be the bane of our life as mods.I think it has to be taken in the context of the thread as a whole.

perri winkles

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but maybe there can be some sort of stickie to do with people asking about these designer breeds e.g. cockapoo, labradoodle, maltifriese and the worst "teacup" puppies.

Really annoys me, there seems to be a new thread looking for these types of "breeds" quite regularly, so maybe there could just be a section that says they are not proper breeds and a shelter or rescue centre would be their best bet?

Calhoun

Discodog wrote: »

OK so is there some way that an offended poster could voice their view, on the thread, that a post is "high mighty or militant", if they feel unwilling to report it ?.

Whilst I agree with pretty much everything that Hellrazer has said ( yes the love-in continues !) some posters may regard a post as high & mighty whereas others might see it as common sense. It is a bit in the eyes of the beholder.

I do believe it is in the eyes of the beholder but it needs to be policed. There is a poster on here that is downright rude any time something is asked and just because he eventually gets to some good advice doesnt make what he does right.

I dont post on this forum i lurk, it is a wealth of knowledge and has really changed my view on a number of animal welfare issues but when i see these militant posts i just turn off completely.

The animal welfare posters have to meet the regular joes half way, if they dont they will lose a key vessel in which to change opinions.

liah

Well, what if we reported posts we found to be condescending or rude and the mods could take out the rude bits and leave the good parts + an infraction? And if a poster is consistently rude they should at least get a temp ban for breech of peace (this has happened to me before, I know it exists ).

lrushe

All in all I think this is a pretty balance forum. Some questions are quite repetitive ie. what should I look for when getting a puppy, my puppy is crying at night what should I do, how do I toilet train my puppy etc. so I think stickies for these types of questions would be valuable.
As for bullying, I don't think this goes on much or maybe people are taking offence where none is meant. Text is such a hard medium to articulate feeling in sometimes, so while a poster might feel they are just giving some straightforward advice, another might feel it's a personal 'attack'. I myself could pull a few threads where I've been ganged up on (for want of a better phrase:)) but it's always been on topics I really believed in and was able to back up my opinions, even when they are not always flavour of the month. I've never felt the need to report a post, I've always been able to fight my own corner.
I belong to another forum where posters there would cut you in two with some of their replies, I mean I physically winch when I see some of the replies, never has it been the case here.
I think if every reply here was sunshine and lollipops and posters were afraid to reply with their true opinions or had to tip toe around so as not to hurt anyones feeling not only would it become v.boring but it would also lose out on a tonne of v.good information.
I think the 'job' of a mod is to stop things going off topic, prevent possible liable things being posted, maybe defusing an agrument that's going now where etc. not babysit posters who can't take some criticism, heck I've gotten enough of it in my year or so here and still keep coming back.
Just my two cents worth as they say.:)

ppink

I am in two minds about the stickies. I think that when someone has a problem they come in and post straight way, hoping for an easy instant solution. I am not sure they would even read the stickies.
In that post there is an opportunity to educate or to :mad::mad::rolleyes::rolleyes: them off the board. The more people that are educated the better? I just feel that by using these emotions and the good ole CAPS LOCK too freely these people are not coming back here in a hurry......they will be off to other animal sites where caps locks ie shouting, are banned. Or worse than that they will go away without getting an answer to their query or any information which will be worse off for who.....the animal?

I think I reported a post once, way back, now I just could not be bothered, I tune out instead.
There is a lot of knowledge on here, getting it across in a decent way is the thing.

Cherry Blossom

Hellrazer wrote: »

And someone mentioned a FAQ--That would also be a great idea.
If anyone wants to help in drawing up either feel free and we`ll sticky it and credit the user for it.

How about a seperate FAQ section where posts could be pre-moderated and posters could contribute for a specified period (say a week) then the posts would be locked to prevent people asking questions in the FAQ section.

You could have threads on:

Dog food and nutrition (posters could contribute with needs of specific breeds, sizes, breeds with food intollerances and what they have found works and what doesn't)

New puppy information

House and toilet training

Behaviour Issues

I realise these are all dog related but these are the one's that frequently come up.

If someone then comes on asking a question they can be directed to the relevant FAQ then come back to their thread if they have any additional queries.

A simple measure of how useful/accurate/acceptable in terms of welfare the advice in the posts is would be basically just thank the posters you agree with.

Discodog

lrushe wrote: »

As for bullying, I don't think this goes on much or maybe people are taking offence where none is meant. Text is such a hard medium to articulate feeling in sometimes, so while a poster might feel they are just giving some straightforward advice, another might feel it's a personal 'attack'. I myself could pull a few threads where I've been ganged up on (for want of a better phrase:)) but it's always been on topics I really believed in and was able to back up my opinions, even when they are not always flavour of the month. I've never felt the need to report a post, I've always been able to fight my own corner.

I think if every reply here was sunshine and lollipops and posters were afraid to reply with their true opinions or had to tip toe around so as not to hurt anyones feeling not only would it become v.boring but it would also lose out on a tonne of v.good information.

As someone who has occasionally disagreed with you I totally agree with your post. If people come here looking for help or advice I think the majority get this with no problems.

I too have never reported a post because someone was rude or aggressive & I have had plenty of occasions when I would of been justified in doing so.

Those of us that give advice do so knowing that, from the tone of some posts, it will be ignored. For example I have pointed out lots of times that taking a stray dog is not illegal yet the same posters will say that it is stealing.

We need healthy constructive opinion & debate with the normal courtesies but let's not go overboard & try to make everything "sunshine & lollipops" ( love that phrase !).

People that post in a way that shows irresponsible ownership must bear in mind that there are others here who have to pick up the consequences every day. It is not unreasonable for them to get a bit exasperated one in a while.

Just a thought but would it be helpful that if the Mods see something that they think is intimidating/bullying/ganging up that they leave the post but point out which part is unacceptable. Sometimes they do this rather than deleting the offending part & this way everyone gets a better idea of what is acceptable or not.

Calhoun

Discodog wrote: »

As someone who has occasionally disagreed with you I totally agree with your post. If people come here looking for help or advice I think the majority get this with no problems.

I too have never reported a post because someone was rude or aggressive & I have had plenty of occasions when I would of been justified in doing so.

Those of us that give advice do so knowing that, from the tone of some posts, it will be ignored. For example I have pointed out lots of times that taking a stray dog is not illegal yet the same posters will say that it is stealing.

We need healthy constructive opinion & debate with the normal courtesies but let's not go overboard & try to make everything "sunshine & lollipops" ( love that phrase !).

People that post in a way that shows irresponsible ownership must bear in mind that there are others here who have to pick up the consequences every day. It is not unreasonable for them to get a bit exasperated one in a while.

Just a thought but would it be helpful that if the Mods see something that they think is intimidating/bullying/ganging up that they leave the post but point out which part is unacceptable. Sometimes they do this rather than deleting the offending part & this way everyone gets a better idea of what is acceptable or not.

No one is saying that it all needs to be sunshine or lollipops but from what i have seen in the past the "exasperations" were more than once in a while. I feel that as you are more inclined to animal welfare this is your perception that its once in a while and sure its no harm.

From reading this forum on nearly a daily basis for the past year this is definitely not the case if it was once in a while then fair enough it would be acceptable but it has gone so far now that even the mods are aware of it.

If nothing is done the forum will become a place where only the elite in animal welfare can post to get a pat on the back for work they are doing, is this where the community wants to go?

Discodog

When I originally suggested and asked for an Animal Welfare Forum it was to separate welfare issues, which invariably involve those involved in welfare, from the posts that don't. This became Animal Welfare & was pre-modded. The problem was that the Mods felt that some people were posting welfare issues in the normal forum to escape the pre-modding.

I have met a lot of people involved in Animal Welfare & rescue. I can't recall any who seek a pat on the back. Plenty of other forums have regular posters who work or have knowledge of a particular area & their opinions are often valued. I have seen situations here where several "animal welfare" posters voice the same opinion to another poster. That could be perceived as ganging up or it could be that they are all expressing an individual opinion that happens to concur. In reality some of the rescues don't like each other at all !. One of the reasons for pre modding was because some rescues were slagging off other rescues. It is not a big alliance of the "elite" versus the rest.

In theory this should be a place where someone could start a thread entitled "What's the best way to get rid of a dog ?". In reality such a thread is going to push civil discussion beyond it's limits.

The opening line of the Charter is that "we all love pets" & that there is to be no discussion about "animal cruelty" - this seems odd seeing as countless threads involve discussing cruelty. But the premise is that this is a forum for people who like animals & it attracts animal lovers.

Personally I welcome posts that go against welfare opinion as it gives us all a chance to express & argue alternate views. We are all different & we are not telepathic. I suspect that most of us do not set out to offend & we may not even be aware that our posts are taken in this way unless the offended poster tells us - or a Mod.

One other thought. Anyone can PM a Mod & ask them to look at a post or thread if they would rather not formally report it - hopes that Seamus agrees !

Whispered

I love the threads where people can disagree and discuss. It can be very interesting. It needs to be kept civil though and often the problem is that it descends into chaos due to one or two posters in the thread who are rude, or misquoting, repeating themselves without listening to other posts etc. And it really only takes one or two people disagreeing in a playground way to ruin a thread. ( and then others who wont ignore the childishness and have to comment)

I understand what people are saying about posts which seem to be jumping down people throats but sometimes a post is so ridiculously wrong anybody can see. One instance which pops out for me still. A poster started a thread about training their puppy and mentioned that someone suggested smacking it, but the OP wasn't sure. A thread followed for many pages full of reasons not to smack, tips, training advice, common problems, mistakes others have made, how to make training fun etc etc it was a great read and very helpful for me (I had just gotten my pup at the time)- Then a post "oh just smack it, it works for me". Of course people will get annoyed with that. Not only did the poster obviously not bother reading the thread, but they were mistreating their dog and advising others to do the same.

Which raises another issue, that of what counts as animal cruelty. Opinions differ so hugely. I'm probably not making much sense but I think it's a fine line for a lot of people and I certainly don't envy the mods dealing with that type of issue.

Calhoun

Discodog wrote: »

When I originally suggested and asked for an Animal Welfare Forum it was to separate welfare issues, which invariably involve those involved in welfare, from the posts that don't. This became Animal Welfare & was pre-modded. The problem was that the Mods felt that some people were posting welfare issues in the normal forum to escape the pre-modding.

I have met a lot of people involved in Animal Welfare & rescue. I can't recall any who seek a pat on the back. Plenty of other forums have regular posters who work or have knowledge of a particular area & their opinions are often valued. I have seen situations here where several "animal welfare" posters voice the same opinion to another poster. That could be perceived as ganging up or it could be that they are all expressing an individual opinion that happens to concur. In reality some of the rescues don't like each other at all !. One of the reasons for pre modding was because some rescues were slagging off other rescues. It is not a big alliance of the "elite" versus the rest.

In theory this should be a place where someone could start a thread entitled "What's the best way to get rid of a dog ?". In reality such a thread is going to push civil discussion beyond it's limits.

The opening line of the Charter is that "we all love pets" & that there is to be no discussion about "animal cruelty" - this seems odd seeing as countless threads involve discussing cruelty. But the premise is that this is a forum for people who like animals & it attracts animal lovers.

Personally I welcome posts that go against welfare opinion as it gives us all a chance to express & argue alternate views. We are all different & we are not telepathic. I suspect that most of us do not set out to offend & we may not even be aware that our posts are taken in this way unless the offended poster tells us - or a Mod.

One other thought. Anyone can PM a Mod & ask them to look at a post or thread if they would rather not formally report it - hopes that Seamus agrees !

Don't get me wrong i agree with most of what you are saying i am just highlighting the delivery from some posters needs to go along way as the aggressive push takes away from the message they are trying to get across.

Not to give you a big head but your communication style is very good, if someone asks a question i have seen you offer an educated opinion and explain why you feel your way is correct in a rational and non condescending manner.

I feel taking that approach when offering an alternative view is the right way to go as it has a high chance of changing opinion. You already know this but when it comes to animal welfare the Irish people are clueless, this does not mean they don't want to or aren't willing to learn.

Anyways hopefully the Mods will think of someway to incorporate this into the forum without allowing it to become an overly unruly environment or a police state as such.

lrushe

Hellrazer wrote: »

Its not about "giving an opinion".Its about the way that that opinion is given ie telling a user that they should have done their research BEFORE getting the cat/dog/elephant.The way I look at it is that at that stage its too late and we should really be helping minimise the damage.

Sorry, just reading back over this thread I spotted this and forgot I wanted to say something on it.
There are often posts along the lines of "I just bought a 5 week old pup from a guy in the pub, it won't stop cry at night, help" (exaggarated a bit as an example!). While the poster might be only asking for help with the dog crying at night I think it's vital to point out (politely of course!) that you shouldn't buy a 5 week old pup for a guy in a pub. Ok in that particular instance and for that particular dog the damage has been done but a)it is unlikely that is the only dog the poster will ever acquire in their lifetime so s/he should be educated for future reference and b) other people will be reading the thread who might not know any better and if it wasn't pointed out might continue to think that the above set of circumstances are ok.
Again just my two cents worth, or is it four, not too sure how much I'm in for now:D

Hellrazer

lrushe wrote: »

There are often posts along the lines of "I just bought a 5 week old pup from a guy in the pub, it won't stop cry at night, help" (exaggarated a bit as an example!). While the poster might be only asking for help with the dog crying at night I think it's vital to point out (politely of course!) that you shouldn't buy a 5 week old pup for a guy in a pub.

And my point is that the user is asking for help with his dog crying at night and the fact that he bought a week old puppy is not really relevant to his question.

Lets take this hypothetical thread that youre talking about.

The first post is from a regular user is going to be something along the lines of "You idiot-you should never take a puppy under 8 weeks of age blah blah blah "and then the condescending posts start.

Straight away this user is turned off the forum.

My point is
Right the user has taken a 5 week old puppy which we all know is wrong but that point in time has passed and can we not just help this user out with what they are asking instead of attacking them for taking a 5 week old puppy.

In other fora these attacking posts wpuld be considered "off topic" and would be deleted from the thread.

Ok in that particular instance and for that particular dog the damage has been done but it is unlikely that is the only dog the poster will ever acquire in their lifetime so s/he should be educated for future reference

I agree 100% but and its a big but--That doesnt happen here.If the thread went the way of "OP you shouldnt really have taken a puppy of 5 weeks but heres how to comfort it until it settles" Well thats well and good
But no the thread would decend into chaos as is the norm.

other people will be reading the thread who might not know any better and if it wasn't pointed out might continue to think that the above set of circumstances are ok.

My previous point would address that ie. explain that its wrong to take a 5 week old puppy but then go on to help the user out and not attack them for taking the 5 week old puppy.

sambuka41

Whispered wrote: »

Which raises another issue, that of what counts as animal cruelty. Opinions differ so hugely. I'm probably not making much sense but I think it's a fine line for a lot of people and I certainly don't envy the mods dealing with that type of issue.

I agree with this completely, i think that is one of the main problems with this forum is that opinions vary. Im not involved in animal welfare but I take my hat off to the guys who are,you have my respect BUT your opinions can be a little uncompromising.(and not all the animal welfare people either but some)

The way people raise their animals is not unlike the way people raise their kids, its very different in each house hold. And I dont think that is always respected on here. I suppose I mean this in relation more to the doggie threads. Its as if there is one way to have a happy healthy dog and anyone whose methods differ is criticized. You can some times end up leaving the forum thinking that your a cruel dog owner because you work or you dont walk your dog 5 times a day (yes slightly exaggerated:p)

All in all though I appreciate the education,cause I have learned a lot by reading threads here. I would just like to see differences being embraced a bit more often.

(Also i would have a decent enough knowledge of dogs but was completely unaware of the serious health problems that the 'teacups' breeds suffer. I was educated on that here,and while i feel its important maybe a sticky would suffice cause thats a thread that will always end up in chaos. People genuinely dont know they are not legit breeds)

Discodog

Hellrazer wrote: »

And my point is that the user is asking for help with his dog crying at night and the fact that he bought a week old puppy is not really relevant to his question.

My previous point would address that ie. explain that its wrong to take a 5 week old puppy but then go on to help the user out and not attack them for taking the 5 week old puppy.

The "5 week old & bought from a pub" are highly relevant points & not off topic. These may be the key reasons why the dog is crying at night. The advise given in this case may be totally different to that given for an 8 week old pup from a reputable source.

I agree with the second point but the owner is going to have to accept that his decision may of actually caused the problem. It requires a lot of restraint to moderate one's disapproval & appear sympathetic to the owners problem - especially when all one's concern is for the pup. But I do agree that if you turn the owner off then that may be worse.

Discodog

sambuka41 wrote: »

Its as if there is one way to have a happy healthy dog and anyone whose methods differ is criticized. You can some times end up leaving the forum thinking that your a cruel dog owner because you work or you dont walk your dog 5 times a day (yes slightly exaggerated:p)

I agree & unfortunately many rescues also take this attitude. I have three, wonderfully happy dogs, but I would not qualify to take a dog from most rescues.

Discodog

Calhoun wrote: »

Not to give you a big head but your communication style is very good, if someone asks a question i have seen you offer an educated opinion and explain why you feel your way is correct in a rational and non condescending manner.

Thanks but here's a confession. I deliberately avoid a lot of the "puppy crying at night" type of threads because I would find it virtually impossible not to be condescending.

lrushe

Hellrazer wrote: »

And my point is that the user is asking for help with his dog crying at night and the fact that he bought a week old puppy is not really relevant to his question.

Lets take this hypothetical thread that youre talking about.

The first post is from a regular user is going to be something along the lines of "You idiot-you should never take a puppy under 8 weeks of age blah blah blah "and then the condescending posts start.

Straight away this user is turned off the forum.

My point is
Right the user has taken a 5 week old puppy which we all know is wrong but that point in time has passed and can we not just help this user out with what they are asking instead of attacking them for taking a 5 week old puppy.

In other fora these attacking posts wpuld be considered "off topic" and would be deleted from the thread.




I agree 100% but and its a big but--That doesnt happen here.If the thread went the way of "OP you shouldnt really have taken a puppy of 5 weeks but heres how to comfort it until it settles" Well thats well and good
But no the thread would decend into chaos as is the norm.



My previous point would address that ie. explain that its wrong to take a 5 week old puppy but then go on to help the user out and not attack them for taking the 5 week old puppy.

I agree more of less with what you've said, the point I was trying to make was that just because the age of the pup or where it was puchased wasn't area where the poster may have been asking advise doesn't mean it should be glossed over.
I agree it should be done in a polite manner but then again you are back to what everyone perceives as polite I guess.

Discodog

We now have an excellent example in the Christmas puppy thread. Please could we either use it as an example & comment on thread or comment here using it as a reference ?.

Whispered

If people can't post their opinion without being told to "answer the damn question" and that is not a "dick measuring competition" then the forum is damned to be honest. Nobody is going to want to post their opinion for fear of being labelled a bully - which is a really horrible thing to say and should not be allowed imo - surely if the post can be seen as bullying it should be reported instead of commented on?

There are people who rarely post except to comment on others posts - it really is ridiculous and is ruining every discussion on the forum just as much as the agressive "what do you know" type posting.