How's our driving? (Feedback for the forum)

Zapperzy

Calhoun wrote: »

I got what you meant about the pet owners and i can understand the frustration but i still don't condone the attitude that comes across in some of the posts because i believe they don't do the thread poster justice.

With a slight review of how people post they can still get the same point across and maybe the message will be taken on board, unlike todays approach which gets people to tune out and not listen. You won't reach everyone of course but changing some peoples mind is better than none.

To your last point i would say that it would be naive to make an assumption that this forum would be pets exclusives. Look where boards came from, a quake forum to what it is now the amount of passing traffic alone would be huge.

My viewing of this forum started off when i wandered away from a gaming forum but since then i have come to rely on it allot for information and for pure entertainment (picture thread, i check it daily ).

I do not like the direction the forum was going and think its a positive thing that the way people post is being challenged because if this forum becomes faction'd then the wandering stranger will never become a regular poster and the forum will die off.

I did not mean this forum is pets exclusive, I actually meant the opposite as in boards covers a huge variety of topics and caters for a wide range of interests.
By pets exclusive I meant the likes of petsireland or petforums where I would expect nearly every member to have an interest in pets whether it be they own one or are thinking of getting one, this forum I presume would get at least some traffic from people from completely different forums that may not have any interest in pets so may not understand why some people are so passionate about some issues.

Cherry Blossom

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

No, I did see valid points but the swear words make them less memorable. I understand how you became exasperated, this is also the case with many of the posters whose posts you see as being clouded by being condescending. I get exasperated myself with some threads on here, sometimes it feels that once you have contributed and your post is dismissed or ignored because it's not what people want to hear whether it be good or bad advice or otherwise it is extrememely infuriating especially in cases where people come on wanting to be told they are right and continue on in hope of 1 person agreeing with them so they can justify whatever mad thing it is they plan to do. I also find it difficult to restrain myself, sometimes I have to leave it and come back later and at a guess I would say the chances are that I fail at remaining restrained on occasion :rolleyes:. Nothing is going to be solved here though without finiding some middle ground.

What I said here in this post ^^^

Prime example of it here in this thread -:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056076345

gucciali

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

What I said here in this post ^^^

Prime example of it here in this thread -:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056076345

are people not allowed to have their own opinion ?, maybe people should be told before they start a thread that whatever the thread is about they have to agree with you , I didn't realise these were the rules .

Cherry Blossom

gucciali wrote: »

are people not allowed to have their own opinion ?, maybe people should be told before they start a thread that whatever the thread is about they have to agree with you , I didn't realise these were the rules .

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, this thread is about on going issues in this forum as a whole, some knowledgeable people have stopped posting good advice here as some have complained that some of their posts are condecending, I am pointing out that it is often very frustrating in cases where people have given advice and feel it has fallen on deaf ears, there was a whole outburst today on another thread which was completely unnecessary and I am just using the Workie thread as an example of something I said earlier, I am not intending to single you out at all in any way. I really don't expect you to read this whole thread as it is quite heavy reading but that's just a brief outline in reply to your post. I was quite reluctant at first to offer you advise on other options at first because of these issues, but as a Westie owner felt I could contribute in this case. Really I should have left it alone after my first post advising you to speak to a vet about your options and in hindsight is probably what I should have done. The announcement that I was off to post here was probably completely unnecessary so I appologise for that.

gucciali

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, this thread is about on going issues in this forum as a whole, some knowledgeable people have stopped posting good advise here as some have complained that some of their posts are condecending, I am pointing out that it is often very frustrating in cases where people have given advice and feel it has fallen on deaf ears, there was a whole outburst today on another thread which was completely unnecessary and I am just using the Workie thread as an example of something I said earlier, I am not intending to single you out at all in any way. I really don't expect you to read this whole thread as it is quite heavy reading but that's just a brief outline in reply to your post. I was quite reluctant at first to offer you advise on other options at first because of these issues, but as a Westie owner felt I could contribute in this case. Really I should have left it alone after my first post advising you to speak to a vet about your options and in hindsight is probably what I should have done.

OK. no point getting annoyed over posts , I was simply looking for advice and I got it , maybe some which I was not wanting to hear but hey that's the way it goes

Cherry Blossom

gucciali wrote: »

OK. no point getting annoyed over posts , I was simply looking for advice and I got it , maybe some which I was not wanting to hear but hey that's the way it goes

And this post is an excellent example of a poster understanding differing points of view and discussion as many people on here intend it to be taken!

Hellrazer

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

And this post is an excellent example of a poster understanding differing points of view and discussion as many people on here intend it to be taken!

And in my opinion that thread is another example of a user getting answers to something that he didnt ask for and the thread going off topic.

While gucciali has taken it the right way another user might not be so understanding and be turned off the forum for good whether or not that advice is good / bad or indifferent.

Discodog

Hellrazer wrote: »

And in my opinion that thread is another example of a user getting answers to something that he didnt ask for and the thread going off topic.

While gucciali has taken it the right way another user might not be so understanding and be turned off the forum for good whether or not that advice is good / bad or indifferent.

Do you really want the forum to consist of question, answer, thread closed ?.

If someone raises a follow on issue, for example the genetic problems of Pugs on a Pug thread, do you see that as off topic ?.

Can you accept that bullying is occurring on both sides ?.

Do you think that the language & attitude of Builttospill & Liah in the Pug thread is acceptable ?.

Is aggression acceptable provided you justify it ?.

I am not asking these questions to have a go but to get some definition as to how you want this forum to be. As the "senior" Mod the forum will reflect your wishes & is subject to your control.

liah

Discodog, would you please stop trying to make it out like I'm trying to ban discussion? How you even came to that conclusion is well beyond me, as I thought I'd made myself quite clear.

I don't give a rat's about discussion. Discussions are amazing and it's great to cover a wide variety of related topics. This has NOTHING AT ALL to do with getting rid of good, well-rounded discussion.

The thing is, what I'm talking about, like that Pug thread-- that's not discussion. That's assuming the ignorance of a poster and lecturing.

If someone asks a question like "Well, what's your opinion on breeders who have litters on the ground at Christmas?"-- fine. Debate away. It's not focusing on any one poster or person and is asking directly for general opinions on the topic.

You can easily have a discussion on a topic WITHOUT making it personal for someone.

e.g. the difference between

"Most reputable breeders won't have pups around for Christmas, they're far too likely to fall into the wrong hands. It's best to wait til well after the season has passed so the breeders will know you're serious and aren't just looking for a gift."

and

"You shouldn't get a pup around Christmas. You're clearly an irresponsible person if you're looking for a pup around Christmas. A pup is for life, you know. I'm going to now inform you about everything to do with the possible health issues and care of pugs, because you obviously known nothing at all about it if you're asking this question of us."

Do you see the difference there?

The first instance takes the focus off the poster and still manages to give the reason why you won't find pups around Christmas. It doesn't assume the poster's ignorance and yet still clarifies and encourages.

The second instance is downright condescending and patronizing. Automatic assumption of ignorance based on little to no given evidence (and I'm sorry, but you just cannot make the jump from "A loving caring home wants to add a pup around Christmas" to "IRRESPONSIBLE OWNER, ABORT, ABORT!" unless you have some outside information that was not included in the OP).

Discodog

I didn't mention you trying to stop discussion. I asked if your language & attitude was acceptable.

Can you quote some posts in the Pug thread where I have been condescending to the OP ?

gucciali

Hi guys If you want some feedback I will give some . last night as you know I made two posts and tbh some of the replies were far from friendly , not what a newcomer would expect when asking a question.

Tbh some of the replies I got last night did make me want to leave and not come back but instead I decided to stay and stand my ground . Some people trying to make out you are stupid etc, also I was told this morning I have no education about dogs . I don't know about you guys but I find that offensive . sorry for going on

Whispered

Hellrazer wrote: »

And in my opinion that thread is another example of a user getting answers to something that he didnt ask for and the thread going off topic.

While gucciali has taken it the right way another user might not be so understanding and be turned off the forum for good whether or not that advice is good / bad or indifferent.

Maybe posters should be given some credit. We're adults and being adults are well capable of saying "I don't agree with you" without the whole thing having to turn into a huge debate. In a recent thread I started someone kept asking me for information I didn't want to give and taking offence to something they thought I had said - I simply said that I wasn't going to respond to them again and the other poster had the respect to stop asking. We both acted like adults and there was no big incident, no calling people names and no agression.

Like I said earlier in the thread - if people stopped posting in a playground style, there would be fewer problems. People can disagree - it's when you have people spoiling for a fight (on both sides of course) that things get out of hand.

Can you tell me if it is now acceptable to be agressive to other posters so long as you are not doing it from an animal welfare point of view?

And if advice is "good bad or indifferent" and could turn a poster off - how do you suggest the forum continues without people giving advice? Or am I picking you up wrong?

liah wrote: »

e.g. the difference between

"Most reputable breeders won't have pups around for Christmas, they're far too likely to fall into the wrong hands. It's best to wait til well after the season has passed so the breeders will know you're serious and aren't just looking for a gift."

and

"You shouldn't get a pup around Christmas. You're clearly an irresponsible person if you're looking for a pup around Christmas. A pup is for life, you know. I'm going to now inform you about everything to do with the possible health issues and care of pugs, because you obviously known nothing at all about it if you're asking this question of us."

Do you see the difference there?

And if you read the thread again - you will see that the answers were somewhere in between.

gucciali wrote: »

Hi guys If you want some feedback I will give some . last night as you know I made two posts and tbh some of the replies were far from friendly , not what a newcomer would expect when asking a question.

Tbh some of the replies I got last night did make me want to leave and not come back but instead I decided to stay and stand my ground . Some people trying to make out you are stupid etc, also I was told this morning I have no education about dogs . I don't know about you guys but I find that offensive . sorry for going on

Hi - your thread came at a very fraught time!!
Regading your thread - it was actually going fine I thought . people gave opinions and were trying to help - you said yourself you weren't aware that you could have a termination. You said yourself that you might consider it. Then someone posted saying you should keep them and you replied saying something about people acting as if it was the worse thing in the world. Nobody said that - people were giving you options that you said yourself you knew nothing about. People also offered advice on care of your bitch, whelping, finding homes etc. You didn't seem to take offense until someone else said something.

liah

Whispered wrote: »

Maybe posters should be given some credit. We're adults and being adults are well capable of saying "I don't agree with you" without the whole thing having to turn into a huge debate. In a recent thread I started someone kept asking me for information I didn't want to give and taking offence to something they thought I had said - I simply said that I wasn't going to respond to them again and the other poster had the respect to stop asking. We both acted like adults and there was no big incident, no calling people names and no agression.

Like I said earlier in the thread - if people stopped posting in a playground style, there would be fewer problems. People can disagree - it's when you have people spoiling for a fight (on both sides of course) that things get out of hand.

And if you read the thread again - you will see that the answers were somewhere in between.

Yes, this is my point exactly! Posters SHOULD be given more credit-- and that doesn't mean just you, or me, or any other regulars-- that means newbies, too. Benefit of the doubt and innocent until proven guilty. Right?

And since you recognize that we're all adults here, and that you agree it's possible to be mature about this, then you must be able to see why I find it so deplorable when people are talked down to as if they were children and treated as though they're guilty regardless of the evidence provided, yes?

And the Pug thread? Some answers were acceptable. The Puppy For Life one most certainly was not, on any level, acceptable. It was way over the top, presumptuous, and condescending.

I've already stated that the only reason I replied to the Pug one is because it's the first one that came up. None of my argument over the last two days has been JUST to do with the Pug thread. It's about the attitude as a whole.

angelfire9

I have to say as an infrequent poster and frequent lurker that I thought the posts on the Yorkie/Westie pup thread were a bit OTT
Accidents happen, the bitch is now pregnant the OP wanted advice on where to go from here not lectures on how bad she is as a pet owner!

Whispered

liah wrote: »

Yes, this is my point exactly! Posters SHOULD be given more credit-- and that doesn't mean just you, or me, or any other regulars-- that means newbies, too. Benefit of the doubt and innocent until proven guilty. Right?

And since you recognize that we're all adults here, and that you agree it's possible to be mature about this, then you must be able to see why I find it so deplorable when people are talked down to as if they were children and treated as though they're guilty regardless of the evidence provided, yes?

And the Pug thread? Some answers were acceptable. The Puppy For Life one most certainly was not, on any level, acceptable. It was way over the top, presumptuous, and condescending.

I've already stated that the only reason I replied to the Pug one is because it's the first one that came up. None of my argument over the last two days has been JUST to do with the Pug thread. It's about the attitude as a whole.

Liah - I feel as if I am starting to repeat myself to you and I'm beginning to get frustrated.

In this thread - I have said the very thing you are saying. The exact same thing. You are not saying anything new here. However - my issue is that in trying to stop people being rude, agressive and condescending you were rude, agressive and condescending. I've explained this to you a few times already.

If your issue is with the forum as a whole then why did you insist on pulling the pug thread so far off topic. Why not post here using the pug thread as reference - as is happening with the "workies" thread.

Your outburst lastnight was completly uncalled for and would have served much better as conversation here as opposed to one person going off on a rant there. Surely you can see how much more helpful it would have been to do it here as opposed to starting a fight on a thread like some sort of school child?

liah

Whispered wrote: »

Liah - I feel as if I am starting to repeat myself to you and I'm beginning to get frustrated.

In this thread - I have said the very thing you are saying. The exact same thing. You are not saying anything new here. However - my issue is that in trying to stop people being rude, agressive and condescending you were rude, agressive and condescending. I've explained this to you a few times already.

If your issue is with the forum as a whole then why did you insist on pulling the pug thread so far off topic. Why not post here using the pug thread as reference - as is happening with the "workies" thread.

Your outburst lastnight was completly uncalled for and would have served much better as conversation here as opposed to one person going off on a rant there. Surely you can see how much more helpful it would have been to do it here as opposed to starting a fight on a thread like some sort of school child?

It wasn't uncalled for if it allowed people to also jump in and voice their opinions and it has moved this thread on considerably.

Sometimes in order to show the problem you need to become it. Now hopefully the people who have been guilty of being condescending before will recognize that it's a crap feeling from the other end and keep that in mind the next time they consider berating a poster for making a mistake, a mistake they've probably made themselves.

My language is your problem, not my problem. If you can't get over it, fine, but don't you dare try to discredit my points simply because you can't handle a bit of colour.

It's just words. Get over them, and focus on the meaning-- life's much better when you stop being offended by worthless things like individual words and start being offended by things that matter, like context and intent.

If you would have no problem with what I have said throughout the two threads if I had worded them differently, then you are completely missing the entire point of everything I've written.

liah

dahat wrote: »

i am afraid that doggie mating accidents usually happen due to owners being reckless..
The OP bitch was exposed to a friends male yorkie while in her fertile period,this is not an accident,this is careless........

It may be careless but it happens, and talking down to and provoking argument with the OP only serves to make them ignore the actual advice given.

A good idea is to not bother with the past. What's done is done, now focus on changing the future.

In this case, simply express "I'd get my dog spayed after that for x x and x reasons."

not

"Well now you've done it, your carelessness has led this poor bitch to have pups, you're an irresponsible pet owner, you should've done x x and x!"

The former takes away any sense of defensiveness and still gives the reasons as to why it's unwise for this to be allowed to happen.

The latter puts the poster in the spotlight, paints them in a horrible light, turns them on defense and makes them feel like crap. And why would someone stay in an environment where they feel like crap?

It's entirely possible to be constructive without being belittling.

EDIT: Huh? Where'd that post go?

Whispered

There you go again "don't you dare" "get over it" etc you sound like a one woman fight squad and very agressive. I also don't need a lesson on how to make life more enjoyable from someone who feels the need to take all of her frustration out on people on an online forum through agressive posting instead of actual conversation.

You have me wrong btw. I have a mouth like a sailor. But my problem with the way you are wording your posts is that you are clouding the bigger issues. Like you said - it's all about intent and you went into that thread intending to put people in their place by being overly agressive. It's not your job to do that in individual threads. That is why this thread is here, to discuss like adults the problems of the forum. (god I've said it again!)

Agression has never been allowed on the forum before - I don't see why it should be for you.

liah wrote: »

It wasn't uncalled for if it allowed people to also jump in and voice their opinions and it has moved this thread on considerably.

Sometimes in order to show the problem you need to become it. Now hopefully the people who have been guilty of being condescending before will recognize that it's a crap feeling from the other end and keep that in mind the next time they consider berating a poster for making a mistake, a mistake they've probably made themselves.

My language is your problem, not my problem. If you can't get over it, fine, but don't you dare try to discredit my points simply because you can't handle a bit of colour.

It's just words. Get over them, and focus on the meaning-- life's much better when you stop being offended by worthless things like individual words and start being offended by things that matter, like context and intent.

If you would have no problem with what I have said throughout the two threads if I had worded them differently, then you are completely missing the entire point of everything I've written.

EXACTLY VVV

provoking argument with the OP only serves to make them ignore the actual advice given

EDIT: We're not going to agree - I've said everything you're saying before in this thread but you seem to think it's you v's the forum. If you want to feel the world is against you go ahead but it's really just causing the conversation to go around in circles. I disagree with how you went about it and cannot understand why such agression has been allowed tbh.

EDIT again: I think that the two threads started by the owner of the westie are going downhill fast. The OP asked 2 seperate questions and now people are discussing both questions on each thread. The two incidents are not really connected at all so why the cross discussion?

dahat

liah wrote: »

EDIT: Huh? Where'd that post go?

OP was away on holiday when this happened so to i removed the post as it seemed to blame her when in fact it was her friend that was careless and didt not see to it that a mating didnt occur

liah

Whispered wrote: »

There you go again "don't you dare" "get over it" etc you sound like a one woman fight squad and very agressive. I also don't need a lesson on how to make life more enjoyable from someone who feels the need to take all of her frustration out on people on an online forum through agressive posting instead of actual conversation.

You have me wrong btw. I have a mouth like a sailor. But my problem with the way you are wording your posts is that you are clouding the bigger issues. Like you said - it's all about intent and you went into that thread intending to put people in their place by being overly agressive. It's not your job to do that in individual threads. That is why this thread is here, to discuss like adults the problems of the forum. (god I've said it again!)

Agression has never been allowed on the forum before - I don't see why it should be for you.




EXACTLY VVV


EDIT: We're not going to agree - I've said everything you're saying before in this thread but you seem to think it's you v's the forum. If you want to feel the world is against you go ahead but it's really just causing the conversation to go around in circles. I disagree with how you went about it and cannot understand why such agression has been allowed tbh.

*facepalm*

I give up too tbh, you're still not getting it!

I don't consider myself anything like a "one woman fight squad," and to be completely honest I don't even particularly see myself as being aggressive. I just talk like that. When I read my posts back in my typically monotone Canadian accent they seem colourful, certainly, but not aggressive or hateful. Frustrated, maybe, no bull****, certainly, but aggressive? Hardly.

I'd consider it "aggressive" if I was constantly putting people down and throwing my weight around. Thing is, I've not insulted a single person, or been rude to anyone, or made a fool of anyone. I've asked you for examples but you didn't provide them. I've done nothing but express my opinion, same as you, and judging by the reactions a few other people agree with my sentiment.

Which is all it's about, really-- the sentiment. You're focusing on the cover rather than the content, and if anyone's drawn the subject off-topic, it's been you for criticizing the package instead of the message. But even then I don't believe that's necessarily true-- but some could certainly see it that way.

Whispered

If you're facepalming I'm banging my head against the wall . Why would I disagree with the message when it is the same as I have said before??

Personally I find it offensive when someone tells me "not to dare" and to "get over" something when I'm trying to have a discussion about an issue. It then makes me not want to continue the discussion - thus ruining any hope of us actually coming to some sort of agreement. It's really hard to have a constructive conversation with someone who you feel is just throwing agression at you.

You catch more bees with honey than with vinegar:D.

I'm not going to post on this particular topic again now as it's pulling even this thread off topic. Suffice to say I agree that something needs to be done - but I don't agree with the idea of fighting fire with fire. I know you insulted a few people with your posting last night. That should have been done here. Not on the thread. You get things done when you stop acting like a child (this goes for both sides)

liah wrote: »

*facepalm*

I give up too tbh, you're still not getting it!

I don't consider myself anything like a "one woman fight squad," and to be completely honest I don't even particularly see myself as being aggressive. I just talk like that. When I read my posts back in my typically monotone Canadian accent they seem colourful, certainly, but not aggressive or hateful. Frustrated, maybe, no bull****, certainly, but aggressive? Hardly.

I'd consider it "aggressive" if I was constantly putting people down and throwing my weight around. Thing is, I've not insulted a single person, or been rude to anyone, or made a fool of anyone. I've asked you for examples but you didn't provide them. I've done nothing but express my opinion, same as you, and judging by the reactions a few other people agree with my sentiment.

Which is all it's about, really-- the sentiment. You're focusing on the cover rather than the content, and if anyone's drawn the subject off-topic, it's been you for criticizing the package instead of the message. But even then I don't believe that's necessarily true-- but some could certainly see it that way.

liah

Whispered wrote: »

If you're facepalming I'm banging my head against the wall . Why would I disagree with the message when it is the same as I have said before??

Personally I find it offensive when someone tells me "not to dare" and to "get over" something when I'm trying to have a discussion about an issue. It then makes me not want to continue the discussion - thus ruining any hope of us actually coming to some sort of agreement. It's really hard to have a constructive conversation with someone who you feel is just throwing agression at you.

You catch more bees with honey than with vinegar:D.

I think we should probably leave it now as it's pulling even this thread off topic.

But you weren't trying to have a discussion about the issue.. I said those things because you were trying to have a discussion about the way I chose to package my sentiments, which wasn't the issue at all.

I show aggression if it's shown to me or if I've tried to be polite and wasn't listened to. This is the latter case. Show me another way when I've already tried to be polite, because I don't see one.

And again, I have trouble seeing it as aggression.. just ranting that isn't aimed at anyone in particular, which is why it's so mystifying to me why you seem to have taken such personal offense to it before I actually even made any sort of reference to you. I did not make a single insult towards any poster. I still would like this to be proven. I didn't insult anyone.

In fact, if I did insult someone I would've been banned by now, as the Boards policy is attack the post and not the poster.


But yeah, agree to disagree, pick battles and whatnot.

Whispered

liah wrote: »

But you weren't trying to have a discussion about the issue.. I said those things because you were trying to have a discussion about the way I chose to package my sentiments.

But your issue is how others package their sentiments. Same problem.

It's not my place to comment on mod descisions so I'm not going to, although I am curious as to their opinions on how discussion has panned out. We have asked them if such posting is acceptable and they have not answered yet, i'm sure they will soon. I've had a rap on the knuckles from mods for less in this forum. But they may feel that in this case it was justifyable to pull a thread off topic and for yourself and other posters to say things such as

EDITED OUT QUOTES NOT NECESSARY

You didn't call people bullies Liah - Builttospill did. But you asked me to quote the things I find offensive from that thread. I did but deleted them as I think it would just escelate a row and ed up with us picking over each "offensive" thing which is not what I want. I think your point could have been gotten across without all of that nonsense.

I also noticed that a poster in the pug thread agreed with you, you thanked their post and then they came here to disagree with your style of posting too. So I'm not the only one who thinks it was unnecessary. Nobody is saying you don't have valid points. You're just clouding the valid points with how you are making them.

Must leave computer coz I can see myself being dragged back into this!!

ppink

I am not able to read back over the last few pages that have exploded here over the last day so apologies.

Is it a thought to have an off topic ranting thread specifically for the animal forum or would that serve no purpose??

Up until the recent Monkey thread I was ok but honestly now I see even what I posted was no help to the OP and I am resisting posting again as I could use about 50 :mad::eek::rolleyes: all of which will not answer the OP or give any good advice.
The pug thread I really did not see a problem until the "a pug is for life not just for Christmas" - if i was OP I would be miffed with that as it is based on a whole heap of assumptions. The advice that came after it was lost on me because of this line but that is all part of forum posting I suppose.

I suppose it is all really a matter of opinion.

liah

Whispered wrote: »

But your issue is how others package their sentiments. Same problem.

It's not. I'm not complaining about packaging, I'm complaining about an attitude of superiority and "my-way-or-the-highway" that is very, very pervasive and obvious on this forum.

It's not my place to comment on mod descisions

Yet you feel it necessary to backseat mod while chastising me for doing so?

so I'm not going to, although I am curious as to their opinions on how discussion has panned out. We have asked them if such posting is acceptable and they have not answered yet, i'm sure they will soon. I've had a rap on the knuckles from mods for less in this forum. But they may feel that in this case it was justifyable to pull a thread off topic and for yourself and other posters to say things such as

As you can see, the majority of those posts were not mine, and if you actually quoted the entire context of the "self-righteous twats" statement you would be able to plainly see that again, it was a description of the attitude, and no direct insult at anyone.

"This crap" is how I view the patronizing and condescending that comes out. It IS crap. Belitting people = crap. What's so hard about that? Also, since when the hell is "crap" a bad word?

And asking people to answer the questions instead of showing off their knowledge also really isn't an awful lot to ask. Again, the dressup is colourful but put it into context-- it's not being directed at any one poster and is a general expression of frustration. It's not a dick-measuring contest to see who knows the most about animals, it really isn't, and I don't see why it's so "aggressive" to just out and say so.

I never said it was my job to do anything, not once have I even implied it. But this is a public forum where the users have input, so I added my input. I did, in fact, report the post I had problems with.

If everyone just ignored it nothing would be done. We need people to actually come out of the woodwork and correct these issues as they notice them until the mods can get a handle on what they want by viewing people's discrepancies and finding a compromise.

You didn't call people bullies Liah - Builttospill did. But you asked me to quote the things I find offensive from that thread. Well there they are. I think your point could have been gotten across with all of that nonsense.

Again, I don't see the big deal about words like "crap" or "twat" tbh. Really don't understand it at all. They're just four letter words that mean sweet **** all... much like the term "sweet **** all." Does it SERIOUSLY matter what words I use, so long as they're not singling anyone out and making them feel bad? Because no matter how you try and spin it, that's not what I'm doing at all. The language I use does not change that fact.

I also noticed that a poster in the pug thread agreed with you, you thanked their post and then they came here to disagree with your style of posting too. So I'm not the only one who thinks it was unnecessary. Nobody is saying you don't have valid points. You're just clouding the valid points with how you are making them.

Yes, I thank posts I agree with as I see posts and not posters unless they make a habit of responding directly to me.

Again about the language I just say who cares. It's well besides the point, my point within the language is still perfectly clear, anyone can understand the sentiment I'm putting across and most should be able to understand the purpose and point and reason for why I'm using it. If they don't, well, that's their problem.

Focusing on my language instead of the sentiment has done nothing but drag the thread wildly off topic, which is exactly what you accused me of doing in the first place.

Must leave computer coz I can see myself being dragged back into this!!

Same as that!

gucciali

Whispered wrote: »

Maybe posters should be given some credit. We're adults and being adults are well capable of saying "I don't agree with you" without the whole thing having to turn into a huge debate. In a recent thread I started someone kept asking me for information I didn't want to give and taking offence to something they thought I had said - I simply said that I wasn't going to respond to them again and the other poster had the respect to stop asking. We both acted like adults and there was no big incident, no calling people names and no agression.

Like I said earlier in the thread - if people stopped posting in a playground style, there would be fewer problems. People can disagree - it's when you have people spoiling for a fight (on both sides of course) that things get out of hand.

Can you tell me if it is now acceptable to be agressive to other posters so long as you are not doing it from an animal welfare point of view?

And if advice is "good bad or indifferent" and could turn a poster off - how do you suggest the forum continues without people giving advice? Or am I picking you up wrong?

And if you read the thread again - you will see that the answers were somewhere in between.

Hi - your thread came at a very fraught time!!
Regading your thread - it was actually going fine I thought . people gave opinions and were trying to help - you said yourself you weren't aware that you could have a termination. You said yourself that you might consider it. Then someone posted saying you should keep them and you replied saying something about people acting as if it was the worse thing in the world. Nobody said that - people were giving you options that you said yourself you knew nothing about. People also offered advice on care of your bitch, whelping, finding homes etc. You didn't seem to take offense until someone else said something.

Hi whispered - sorry didn't mean for my post to get right inthe middle of this . yes my post was going well , yes there were friendly people with advice but there were also two posters in particular who seemed vey quick to jump (and i found it quite rude tbh ) in both my threads last night .

seamus

Can you both see the pattern here?


OK, morning mundanities complete, coffee had, time to post.

There are a number of things at play here. Yes, on occasion some people are too quick to start into a "what you are doing/have done is completely wrong, rah rah rah" tirade against a poster without adding any useful content. But they're actually few and far between. What we generally have is some advice, sprinkled with opinion in a curt manner.
Which is typical of most forums on boards; I've been looking out for it this morning. It's not bullying, IMO. This is a discussion forum, people are entitled to give their opinion. Complaining about bullying because a poster has been told that they're wrong, is OTT. A poster should be capable of defending their position, they don't need a knight in shining armour to fight their corner.

That said, dragging the thread off-topic in order to give the poster a lecture is not what's needed. Sure, you can add some suggestions as in, "In order to avoid your dog getting pregnant again, you should have her spayed, for these reasons: <insert>", but telling them more-or-less that they're a ****ing eejit is not helpful or useful.

Of course, separating the wheat from the chaff is easier than it looks. We need a flexible policy in which to deal with this. Off-topicness isn't bad, necessarily. Telling a pug-wanter that any reputable breeder won't have puppies over christmas, is not irrelevant advice. Telling a bitch owner to have his bitch spayed before/after giving birth is not irrelevant advice.

But delivery is a whole other matter.

I think there's a disconnect between the general populace and the frequenters of this forum. Most people know it, but fail to recognise it, as far as I can see. Rather than see a member of the general populace as ignorant and in need of a little help in understanding what's happening, they're seen as an idiot and subjected to a "Mammy-knows-best" lecture. This is more likely to result in them going away with a "Bloody animal lovers" attitude rather than a "Oh right, that's good advice" one.

What we need to do, as a community, is recognise that there's no such thing as a stupid question. Questions are borne out of ignorance, so rather than abuse the person for asking the question, resolve it and remove the ignorance.

What I think will go a long way towards helping is to compile a list of commonly-asked questions, such as, "How do I recognise a reputable breeder" or "Should I get my dog spayed?" and then add them to a sticky at the top of the forum. So when the thread comes along, rather than foam at the mouth and get annoyed at the ignorance, you can simply say, "There's a thread full of useful info here."

But how do we deal with this in future? You guys tell us? Should we start handing out infractions for advice which is needlessly harsh or unwelcome? It's a pretty grey and subjective area?

What I have said to posters in the past when they've been creating friction is to be "more sensitive" to the community here. But that's kind of folly. New people to the forum aren't going to be "more sensitive", because they keep coming, we can't contact each one before they post.

Perhaps the answer here is to tell everyone to be less sensitive - to forget for a second any personal biase or involvement you have in the area and try to answer the question with a degree of logic and decorum. The very mention of the words, "dangerous dogs", for example, stirs up the anger in some of us and we forget to check our feelings and the thread goes miles off topic.
Maybe simply issuing warnings to "calm down" would quell it?

Suggestions on a postcard, etc...

liah

I think the sooner some guideline threads are written up the better (e.g on spaying, a breeder listing, etc).

Also, I still think some people could learn to phrase things differently.. a rule of "assume nothing" should be added into the charter somehow.

Snarky posts should be mod edited rather than infracted or banned. If the user continues with the attitude then consider the next step, but I think a mod snip should be effective, I see it in other forums a lot.

I've reported a few posts but I'm unsure about it because I'm reporting on attitude and unnecessary digs rather than any blatant breech of the charter. Should I continue doing this to outline what I believe is crossing the line or should I comment on thread or should I just not bother at all?

After that's clarified I think how to deal with those sorts of posts should be mentioned in the charter.. would help the communication breakdown drastically.

Whispered

gucciali wrote: »

Hi whispered - sorry didn't mean for my post to get right inthe middle of this . yes my post was going well , yes there were friendly people with advice but there were also two posters in particular who seemed vey quick to jump (and i found it quite rude tbh ) in both my threads last night .

Ah no I just meant that it was pretty well timed as it's one of those threads that usually gets very strong opinions as well as great advise and is perfect to use as a "case study" iykwim.:D

I'm glad you got something from the thread. As a new poster - do you feel that the advise you got counteracts the posts you found rude? Would you come back for advise or have the posts you found rude put you off?

We all started somewhere in the forum, we are all subjct to condescending posts and downright ignorant and rude posts. Some people stick it out and become part of the forum - others find it too much.

All we can really hope is that the few posters who go ott can see how it's not really helpful at all. Rude posting, being ignorant or jumping down peoples throats will never achieve anything.

The most important thing for me is to have somewhere to go to chat about the pets, get advise and where necessary take critisism. I think everyone is here for the good of their pets or animals in general. I also think that people should be able to contribute to the forum without people waiting to critisise.

Hellrazer

seamus wrote: »

There are a number of things at play here. Yes, on occasion some people are too quick to start into a "what you are doing/have done is completely wrong, rah rah rah" tirade against a poster without adding any useful content.
But they're actually few and far between.

This is point number 1 that Ive been trying to get across to the regulars ie be nice to new users regardless of your experience in these matters.
I have to disagree that they are few and far between though as the last few days have shown that this is becoming more common in the forum.

What we generally have is some advice, sprinkled with opinion in a curt manner.

Curt wouldnt be the word I would use but either way it goes against the whole boards motto of being nice.

That said, dragging the thread off-topic in order to give the poster a lecture is not what's needed.

In other fora that I frequently use off topic posting is removed without explanation--Maybe a suggestion of the way to handle it in the future??

Sure, you can add some suggestions as in, "In order to avoid your dog getting pregnant again, you should have her spayed, for these reasons: <insert>", but telling them more-or-less that they're a ****ing eejit is not helpful or useful.

Again--its all about being nice to all users.

Of course, separating the wheat from the chaff is easier than it looks. We need a flexible policy in which to deal with this. Off-topicness isn't bad, necessarily. Telling a pug-wanter that any reputable breeder won't have puppies over christmas, is not irrelevant advice. Telling a bitch owner to have his bitch spayed before/after giving birth is not irrelevant advice.

I agree that its not irrelevant advice.As a matter of fact these 2 examples are probably the best advice in these situations.

But delivery is a whole other matter.

Agreed 100%You dont have to be "curt" every time someone asks a question that you may know more about than them.

I think there's a disconnect between the general populace and the frequenters of this forum. Most people know it, but fail to recognise it, as far as I can see. Rather than see a member of the general populace as ignorant and in need of a little help in understanding what's happening, they're seen as an idiot and subjected to a "Mammy-knows-best" lecture. This is more likely to result in them going away with a "Bloody animal lovers" attitude rather than a "Oh right, that's good advice" one.

And in my opinion this here is the one thing that ruins the forum for newcomers.

But how do we deal with this in future? You guys tell us? Should we start handing out infractions for advice which is needlessly harsh or unwelcome? It's a pretty grey and subjective area?

Likewise Id like to hear from everone on how we go about fixing the forum so to speak.