Paul Gogarty says he is being "patriotic" by propping up the government.

Dirk Gently

DeVore wrote: »

Actually, to be completely fair... Paul Gogarty is in my firing line because he

1. Is claiming to be madly "angry" about what FF is doing but continues to support them.

2. Is the only one who seems to be engaging with the populace.

He should be castigated for 1 and praised for 2. imho. He is, at least, not hiding behind Leinster Houses gates (truck-proof or otherwise). I'll say that for him.


DeV

I don't agree Dev. Point 2 is directly related to point one above. Gogarty manipulates twittter and facebook to project an image of opposition. He is not engaging with the populace, he is deliberately and systematically trying to deceive his voters into thinking that the green party and he in particular is a voice of opposition.

The "Patriotic" thing to do would be admit that the greens are in way over their head and go to the people for the sake of the country. It was quite possibly the worst point of time in the history of the state for a "noob" zero experience party to prop up a FF government.

Paul Gogarty is all surface and no depth. To read his tweets or his facebook page you would be forgiven to think it was still 2005 when the green party could safely get on the moral high horse and criticise "government" from the safety of the opposition benches. This mechanism is all they have ever known and they are unable to make the transition from minority opposition party to active members of a government.

At the risk of going off on a tangent, the green party are so consumed by guilt of selling out the country and the knowledge that they have destroyed their own party that I'm pretty sure that one or two weeks of sustained targeted attacks from FG and Lab against the greens would break them and collapse the government. I think FG and LAB know this too but they wont force the issue because they want this government to stay in power long enough to pass the budget for them.

Don't be fooled by the tweets, it's nothing more than nervous guilt, trying to fool people into thinking they are opposition within government when the truth is they haven't the backbone to do the right thing.

meglome

clown bag wrote: »

I don't agree Dev. Point 2 is directly related to point one above. Gogarty manipulates twittter and facebook to project an image of opposition. He is not engaging with the populace, he is deliberately and systematically trying to deceive his voters into thinking that the green party and he in particular is a voice of opposition.

To be fair the more politicians use technology to engage the more chance for us the electorate to engage in return. This should hopefully lead to said politicians making better decisions.

While I welcome Paul Gogarty's use of things like Facebook and twitter I have to agree with you that it looks like he's trying to save his own ass. That patriotism answer really was bull.

DeVore

I ain't fooled by anything but I believe in giving the man a chance to explain himself before condemning him.

I want to press some hard questions and give him an opportunity to explain himself to me and you. A lie can't withstand contact with reasoned debate. I ain't going to give up on Mr Gogarty just yet but if all he is willing to do is sit in his ivory Twitter tower and post snippets from on high, then I don't think that's real engagement... It's just more "I talk, you listen" broadcast media model.

I'll offer him an account here and see if he will talk to us.

DeV.

Dirk Gently

meglome wrote: »

To be fair the more politicians use technology to engage the more chance for us the electorate to engage in return.

sure, but I don't think engaging with the electorate is what Gogarty is doing tbh. He uses it to update us with sound-bites and fluffy "I'm outraged at the government but there's nothing I can do" type nonsense.

Backard_Pell

I guess Paul Gogarty has a mortgage and family to raise, and has watched his political career turn to rumble after teaming up with FF, and is now resigned to the fact that the Greens will be brought down with FF in the impending election.
He is probably worried what future prospects hold for his political career as there may not be many doors open for him after the election blood bath, I dont blame him for being worried, and angry at his party making the suicidal error of going into government with FF.
He might get a few more pay packets out of the Dail, but most of this will go straight into the negative equity black hole of the 3 bed semi in Lucan (Im just guessing).
Ivor Callely is being very patriotic lately, isn't he?

DeVore

Dear Mr Gogarty, I have to write this here because twitter is too constrictive.

My name is Tom Murphy, and I am one of the founders of boards.ie , by far and away the largest discussion forum in the state.

There are people here who would like to ask you questions and others who would like to hear your point of view. To facilitate this, I am offering to set up an account for you and verify that it is you using it.

The only condition is that you have to engage with us meaningfully, no party political broadcasts without response to reasonable questions asked. From your Twitter feed that doesn't seem to be a problem for you.

In return we will guarantee that you will not be abused or threatened or unfairly maligned. (one of our rules is that people must be civil and it's particularly strict on the politics forum).

Are you willing to give this a shot and be the first TD to actually be brave and face their critics? Not everyone is against you and I for one might not agree with you but I would very much like the opportunity to put my views to you and hear your insiders opinion and your counter arguments.

If you are interested please drop me a mail to Tom .at. Boards.ie and confirm on your Twitter that you have done that so I know it's not someone trying to con me.

I will reserve the username PaulGogartyTD for you in advance so no one can grab it.

Yours sincerely,
Tom Murphy
Director Boards.ie ltd.

Amhran Nua

There are two possibilites here as I see it...

Mr Gogarty knows he's in the wrong, but knows he can't be removed from his position until the inevitable crunching defeat at the polls, at which point he can presumably collect his pension, benefits, and possibly look forward to positions in various quangoes and committees in the mid to long term. Protestations of anger are simply covering the bases.

Mr Gogarty genuinely believes that FF are taking the best course of action for the country, hence his comment on patriotism, which raises the question as to why he is expressing anger at FF policies. Possibly he might have confused "Green party success" with "patriotism", but on the balance, can he really believe that whatever good is being done outweighs the vast damage?

Therefore should he fail to make an appearance here, the former option is reinforced.

Executive Steve

There has to be better ways of getting Twitter followers than this Tom...


You'd also do well to remember the old adage about not arguing with a fool because he'll drag you down of his level and beat you with experience.

DeVore

Well I've put the invitation to him on my Twitter.

I'm not joking that if he comes to answer our questions, those questions and the debate following may be robust but it WILL be civil and reasonable. I don't care how angry people are, drive your virtual cement mixers over to pol.ie cos it's not welcome here.

Finally, I'm not singling out mr Gogarty for special treatment, I'll make the same offer to any sitting TD. It's just that Mr Gogarty seems to be the only one going the Obama route of direct interaction through the Internet (correct me if I'm wrong)

DeV.

Wolfe Tone

DeVore wrote: »

My "tweet" in full:
"@PaulGogartyTD I and others would like to know why you and other supposedly angry TD's dont resign and trigger a G.E. http://bit.ly/bCf1rm "

His reply:
@DeVore it's called patriotism


I find this answer deeply unsatifactory and smacks of glib smart-arsedness. I've subsequently put this to him:
@PaulGogartyTD Patriotism would be allowing the people of Ireland self determination. We would prefer an answer not a glib soundbite.


On the plus side, at least he's responding directly which is more then the vast majority of our "representatives".

DeV.

The people of Ireland are allowed self determination, well with the obvious exception of the 6, but what was wrong with his reply? Patriotism? That is an acceptable reply imho. Perhaps he views his support as a unfortunate necessity, supporting cut backs etc as an unfortunate necessity, one which he does not want to do, but feels obliged to do so out of a sense of patriotic duty?


ANd as for referring to him as a smart arse, how does that fall within the new rules here on boards?

DeVore

I hope that's a joke

1.8 million different people used boards last month. I have 93 Twitter followers. If I wanted fame and celebrity I'd stick my blog on the top of every page hahaha.

This is about genuinely seeing how far this can go and who knows what might come of it. I'm willing to provide the platform and set fair ground rules, the ball is in the other court(s).

DeV.

DeVore

I didn't refer to him as a smart arse, I said the answered smacked of smartarsedness.

To be fair, you might be right and I can see a genuine argument that could be made along the lines you did above. But I don't now what he's thinking because of the medium he's using.

I might not even disagree with him because on another thread I'm telling people to calm and not riot because we are in the eye of the storm!!!

I vehemently disagree with saving Anglo but do we really want Labour now? The best choice IMHO would be FG but dear god they seem incompetent and impotent and very unclear on what they would do instead.

But I digress.

DeV.

freewheeler

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

The people of Ireland are allowed self determination, well with the obvious exception of the 6, but what was wrong with his reply? Patriotism? That is an acceptable reply imho. Perhaps he views his support as a unfortunate necessity, supporting cut backs etc as an unfortunate necessity, one which he does not want to do, but feels obliged to do so out of a sense of patriotic duty?


ANd as for referring to him as a smart arse, how does that fall within the new rules here on boards?

If being 'patriotic' includes propping-up this disgraceful excuse for a government...then i think that both he and his compatriots should examine their collective consciences (if they still exist)

Poly

DeVore wrote: »

drive your virtual cement mixers over to pol.ie cos it's not welcome here.

Mr Gogarty seems to be the only one going the Obama route of direct interaction through the Internet (correct me if I'm wrong)

Virtual cement mixer:D, small virtual pitch forks are ok?

What about our esteemed Minister for communication, does he communicate?
I've seen him at meetings, his blackberry never leaves his hand.

Wolfe Tone

DeVore wrote: »

I didn't refer to him as a smart arse, I said the answered smacked of smartarsedness.

Thats being very pedantic For instance if I said that a certain posters posts smacked of smart aresedness that would be ok? Sure going by that logic I could say that about every single one of his posts? Or smacks of stupidity?

To be fair, you might be right and I can see a genuine argument that could be made along the lines you did above.

Thats the argument I imagine he would make....

But I don't now what he's thinking because of the medium he's using.

You want him to come on boards? TBH he has been singled out here, because he put himself out there etc, you imply he is a smart arse in the OP yet go on to say this:

I'm willing to provide the platform and set fair ground rules

Now tbh I do not think that fair ground rules have been set. This has every appearance of attempting to get him on here in order to tear him a new one. He would be idiotic to come on here tbh.

I vehemently disagree with saving Anglo but do we really want Labour now? The best choice IMHO would be FG but dear god they seem incompetent and impotent and very unclear on what they would do instead.

So the foundations that you have set here are to get him on here and bash him with the anglo stick yeah?

DeVore

I'm not going to bash anyone and I'm not going to allow anyone else to bash anyone on this site, those have always been our rules.

I'd like to hear his point of view expounded upon from the only person qualified to do so. Last night I admit to being angry with what I saw as a glib condescending throwaway answer. Today I'd like to know if there is anything more behind that answer or if he is just throwing around soundbites.

I have no time for Gotchas politics as they call it in the US but i very much have time for the idea of our representatives being asked to explain themselves using this new communications platform. I see no reason why that shouldn't be the case.

DeV.

Poly

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So the foundations that you have set here are to get him on here and bash him with the anglo stick yeah?

We are going to criticise him anyway, Devore is giving him the right of reply.

Any forward looking politician should be on here addressing issues.
An example:
During the last local elections, a chap running for the Meath Town council came on the Meath forum and openly addressed a few issues and questions.
I think there was a bit of mud slinging that he wanted cleared up. I liked what he had to say and gave him my no.1. He was duly elected, not sure what influence his boards account had on other people, but it worked for me.

Dirk Gently

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So the foundations that you have set here are to get him on here and bash him with the anglo stick yeah?

Gogarty himself tweeted to complain about willie o dea slating the greens on the late late recently. He complained about having a right to reply. The way I see it Dev is giving Gogarty his right to reply here which he felt the late late didnt give him. (not that I think he'd welcome questions that can't be answered in 160 characters or whatever the twitter limit is).

I'd be interested to hear what Pauls reasons are for propping up the FF gov as opposed to walking. I think people deserve to hear his arguments. I'd like him to explain why it's in all our interests to keep FF in power as opposed to having a GE. What is it he knows that we don't. Does he or does he not support FF policies, and if not what exactly would he like to do differently.

Lets be clear, if Paul and the Greens were still in opposition they'd be the ones shouting loudest condemning every decision which has happened since the last GE. Either government has opened their eyes (in which case please do share with the rest of us) or else it's pure self preservation to postpone their own political decline.

hallelujajordan

DeVore wrote: »

I'd like to hear his point of view expounded upon from the only person qualified to do so. Last night I admit to being angry with what I saw as a glib condescending throwaway answer. Today I'd like to know if there is anything more behind that answer or if he is just throwing around soundbites.

You posed a question on twitter . . what did you expect him to respond with in 120 characters other than a soundbite ? And why is it glib ? He believes he is being patriotic. The GP had the opportunity last year to salvage themselves as an entity by bringing down the government. They chose not to and stayed in government knowing that it would likely have hugely detrimental consequences to the future of the Green Party. I'm struggling to understand what could have motivated them other than patriotism.

DeVore wrote: »

I might not even disagree with him because on another thread I'm telling people to calm and not riot because we are in the eye of the storm!!!

I vehemently disagree with saving Anglo but do we really want Labour now? The best choice IMHO would be FG but dear god they seem incompetent and impotent and very unclear on what they would do instead.

I'm not sure I really understand your position . . On the one hand you are calling for calm, quite rightly recognising that what we need right now is calmness and stability in front of the world markets. . . On the other hand, you are challenging a GP TD to bring down the government and trigger a general election that will almost certainly take everyone's eye off the ball for over a month . . when we should all be focused on preparing for a critical budget.

I could understand that if you had faith and confidence in the likely replacement government but you don't even have that. . . You're description of FG is spot-on. Incompetent and Impotent and no fundamentally alternative policies to the current government; The only possible alternative to a FG led government is a Labour-FF coalition with Mr. On-the-fence Gilmore as Taoiseach.

Parking party politics for a moment - Is it really in the best interests of Ireland inc to trigger a General Election right now ??

Poly

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Y
Parking party politics for a moment - Is it really in the best interests of Ireland inc to trigger a General Election right now ??

"Ireland inc". This is about our Republic. This government cannot be trusted, they have cheated and misled the citiziens.

How could keeping a coruupt cabal of liars, tax cheats, forgers, conspirators, freeloaders, incompetents and drunks in power, be in our interest?

Heroditas

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Parking party politics for a moment - Is it really in the best interests of Ireland inc to trigger a General Election right now ??

The government is due to push through a budget along with austerity measures that will run past the length of its term.
That could mean that any incoming government is stuck with these measures and must abide by them.
Of course it's in the country's interest to at least have a choice in which government is going to impose these austerities on us.

hallelujajordan

Heroditas wrote: »

The government is due to push through a budget along with austerity measures that will run past the length of its term.
That could mean that any incoming government is stuck with these measures and must abide by them.
Of course it's in the country's interest to at least have a choice in which government is going to impose these austerities on us.

Nonsense, Any new government could hold another budget straight away and reorganise as per their own policies. . Assuming they have any.

hallelujajordan

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Parking party politics for a moment - Is it really in the best interests of Ireland inc to trigger a General Election right now ??

Whats in the interests of Ireland and whats going to happen are 2 different things right now.
It will be a near miracle if this government survives beyond the spring after the 3 by elections.
So in reality we do need an election now for clarity and for the opposition to put their money where their mouth is.

The honeymoon won't last long.

The moral of what I'm saying ? We are where we are.Greed got us here.
The best brains or even a tenth of them are not in the Dáil and don't even get me started on the mandarins in the ministers offices whose grasp of the real world in the advice that the ministers actioned,has been shown to be poor.
Whats going to get us out of this mess is pressure from brains that are a lot greater than those in the Dáil and these people are the IMF and more importantly the bundesbank aka the ECB,the markets and the pipers calling the tune.
Those are the people that will deliver the reality check swiftly up the arses of those in the Dáil regardless of what any T.D says

PeterIanStaker

DeVore wrote: »

Perhaps a genuine Green Party can arise from the ashes.

DeV.

Would that be recycling:D?

MrDarcy

Lads turkey's don't vote for Christmas, Paul Gogarty is absolutely dispised in this constituency, he won't be getting elected again in this lifetime regardless of when the next election is, he has a much chance of getting elected again as Royston Brady has, in fact he has managed to make Royston Brady look like some sort of a credible political option.

I genuinely don't know how Paul Gogarty is actually going to be able to canvas on the next occasion, I can't see him being able to knock on doors, he is that dispised. The only thing that might save Gogarty is that a large percentage of his constituents are genuinely of the view that he suffers from some kind of Peter Pan syndrome that they were not aware of when they last voted for him in 2007.

DeVore

All the more reason why he should be explaining himself and his reasons for his actions. It's in his own intererst to get his side of the story across.

DeV.

Wolfe Tone

DeVore wrote: »

All the more reason why he should be explaining himself and his reasons for his actions. It's in his own intererst to get his side of the story across.

DeV.

He will come on here and get completely destroyed. I would argue that it is in his own interest to stay away from the internets and keep his head down.

thebman

Amhran Nua wrote: »

There are two possibilites here as I see it...


Mr Gogarty genuinely believes that FF are taking the best course of action for the country, hence his comment on patriotism, which raises the question as to why he is expressing anger at FF policies. Possibly he might have confused "Green party success" with "patriotism", but on the balance, can he really believe that whatever good is being done outweighs the vast damage?

Therefore should he fail to make an appearance here, the former option is reinforced.

You could add to this option that forcing FF to pass the crushing budget will essentially be a service to the state.

All parties would need to pass such a budget, letting the current government pass it will remove a lot of FF support as these cuts are going to be devastating to the people that FF considers loyal supporters as well as the rest of the population.

Its a rock and a hard place for the Irish at the moment. An election when we don't have to go to the markets is convienient but forcing FF to pass probably one of the most painful budgets most people in the state will ever know will damage the party for years to come and hopefully have a lasting change on Irish politics for decades to come.

For what its worth I believe the greens don't it matters who is charge at the moment, there is only one option available for this budget and it isn't pretty.

Darsad

Back in 2007 we were living in a very different country and the Greens picked up comfort votes when people had money in their pockets and a sense of security and though sure ill give the greens a shot. Now we have all seen just what a<snip> they are , and we will feel it yet again with the 5% levy on our ESB bills thanks to the greens. <snip>

<admin hat on: Darsad, I've deleted the personal invective of your post and left what point there is that you made. Sorry but that sort of thing is just not cool. I'll leave any further action to the mods as I'm uncomfortable taking things any further given that I am involved with this thread. -- DeV>

Jimbo

PaulGogartyTD @DeVore I welcome invitation for sensible debate with relish, tks. Hope this can take place within a pre agreed 24 hr period. Mail u soon..
about 3 hours ago

This should be interesting...