Paul Gogarty says he is being "patriotic" by propping up the government.

DeVore

Due to a thread on Boards here, I decided to put it directly to Mr Gogarty that he and other supposedly angry TDs should step down and trigger a general election.

My "tweet" in full:
"@PaulGogartyTD I and others would like to know why you and other supposedly angry TD's dont resign and trigger a G.E. http://bit.ly/bCf1rm "

His reply:
@DeVore it's called patriotism


I find this answer deeply unsatifactory and smacks of glib smart-arsedness. I've subsequently put this to him:
@PaulGogartyTD Patriotism would be allowing the people of Ireland self determination. We would prefer an answer not a glib soundbite.


On the plus side, at least he's responding directly which is more then the vast majority of our "representatives".

DeV.

bad2dabone

I really have no time for Paul Gogarty. He's propping up the government because he know's he'll be getting smacked down by the electorate when the time comes, and like the other greens he's hanging on to his moment of power by the tips of his fingers.

Sheeps

Patriotism... that's comical.

meglome

patriotism hehehehe. Now I'm all for patriotism as such but that answer is bull****.

Wide Road wrote: »

Lets suppose he didn't reply. Would it change your headline? My guess is yes because your headline is based on Paul's reply. Are you with me? Let's hope so because I need your help now. Remember when the Dail took their Summer holidays and a FG TD tried to drive back to West Cork while under the influence of alcohol. This guy is called PJ Sheehan and he could have and in all probability would have killed someone only for the actions of a guard that was assualted by PJ. Now, be truthful and answer this question, do you think this politician deserves to be a member of Dail Eireann? Yes or No, it's your call.

I don't think anyone would support Sheehans actions but then again he didn't basically bankrupt the country.

M three

DeVore wrote: »

Due to a thread on Boards here, I decided to put it directly to Mr Gogarty that he and other supposedly angry TDs should step down and trigger a general election.

My "tweet" in full:
"@PaulGogartyTD I and others would like to know why you and other supposedly angry TD's dont resign and trigger a G.E. http://bit.ly/bCf1rm "

His reply:
@DeVore it's called patriotism


I find this answer deeply unsatifactory and smacks of glib smart-arsedness. I've subsequently put this to him:
@PaulGogartyTD Patriotism would be allowing the people of Ireland self determination. We would prefer an answer not a glib soundbite.


On the plus side, at least he's responding directly which is more then the vast majority of our "representatives".

DeV.

good god. how convenient to blame a green party member for propping up the government. just like blaming the pd's all those years ago.
well guess what, the pd's are long gone and fianna fail are still fcukking us over.

flynnlives

I see the FF trolls are out in force tonight!

Seriously tho, FF must have thought christmas had come early in 2007 when these green lunatics showed up looking for a piece of the pie! what bits have they actually accomplished in their pfg? lightbulbs and the banning of one stag hunt!

I notice that their much hyped ideology of banning corporate donations has been quietly shelved during the week!

meglome

M three wrote: »

good god. how convenient to blame a green party member for propping up the government. just like blaming the pd's all those years ago.
well guess what, the pd's are long gone and fianna fail are still fcukking us over.

As much as i disagreed with the Green Party supporting Fianna Fail I do feel kinda sorry they are going to get destroyed at the next election. Though play with fires and you will get burned.

OutlawPete

meglome wrote: »

As much as i disagreed with the Green Party supporting Fianna Fail I do feel kinda sorry they are going to get destroyed at the next election.

Why would you feel sorry for them, if that happens?

Wide Road

flynnlives wrote: »

I see the FF trolls are out in force tonight!

Seriously tho, FF must have thought christmas had come early in 2007 when these green lunatics showed up looking for a piece of the pie! what bits have they actually accomplished in their pfg? lightbulbs and the banning of one stag hunt!

I notice that their much hyped ideology of banning corporate donations has been quietly shelved during the week!

What is the FG position on banning corporate donations?

DeVore

Because they were elected for a reason OTHER then to prop up FF and that reason was important and remains unchanged.

I feel nothing for the specific PEOPLE involved but I feel sorry that the "Green Party" will cease to exist and their worthy cause along with them, but perhaps its best. Perhaps a genuine Green Party can arise from the ashes.

DeV.

meglome

OutlawPete wrote: »

Why would you feel sorry for them, if that happens?

Well I do agree with many of their policy's and always saw them as a place to give a vote to. However I won't be voting for them after supporting those Fianna Fools.

DeVore

Wide Road. Last warning, I've had to move several of your post for being off topic. I've even gone as far as creating a whole NEW topic for them here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056049329

Further offtopicness will lead to an opportunity to reappraise your approach next week.

DeV.

flynnlives

Wide Road wrote: »

What is the FG position on banning corporate donations?

i dunno. But they didnt go on and on about a specific policy only for it to be completely ignored and quietly shelved.

DeVore

Flynn. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you and I posted at the same time.


Further off-topicness will be deleted.

DeV.

M three

DeVore wrote: »

Because they were elected for a reason OTHER then to prop up FF and that reason was important and remains unchanged.

I feel nothing for the specific PEOPLE involved but I feel sorry that the "Green Party" will cease to exist and their worthy cause along with them, but perhaps its best. Perhaps a genuine Green Party can arise from the ashes.

DeV.

so you are saying that it was the green partys job to ensure that fianna fail dont do what they've always been doing, which just in case you dont know is thieving and lying??

so come next election we shouldnt blame fianna fail but the greens???

DeVore

No, I'm blaming the specific people elected under the Green Party banner for not doing what they were elected to do, which is to champion green issues. Which imho, they haven't.

I'm also sorry that they seem to have destroyed the Green Party along the way.

DeV.

DeVore

I'm also calling Mr Gogarty on his apparent hypocrisy of decrying this government while still propping it up. Either you are part of the problem or you are part of the solution.

DeV.

OutlawPete

meglome wrote: »

Well I do agree with many of their policy's and always saw them as a place to give a vote to. However I won't be voting for them after supporting those Fianna Fools.

I voted for them also, which was why I asked.

I wouldn't vote for them again.

DeVore wrote: »

Because they were elected for a reason OTHER then to prop up FF and that reason was important and remains unchanged.

I agree 100%, but when they were elected, this was put to them and they were adamant that they were not going to be there just to make up the numbers.

The vast majority of Green Party TDs lost their back bone when they got power.


Trevor Sargent in particular.

DeVore wrote: »

I feel nothing for the specific PEOPLE involved but I feel sorry that the "Green Party" will cease to exist and their worthy cause along with them, but perhaps its best. Perhaps a genuine Green Party can arise from the ashes.

I hope your right but I think the Green Party are more damaged now than FF are.

FF voters historically have got very short memories when it comes to their party's shortcomings, I'm not so sure Green Party voters will.

The Labour Party may not be as 'Green' as the Green Party, but I think now at this stage, I'd much rather have for a party that delivers on 50% of a ten promises, than on one that has a thousand promises but yet delivers on none.

M three

do you hold the same ire for all fianna fail td's?

or are you just trying to blame the greens for the treacherous activities of another political party?

OutlawPete

M three wrote: »

do you hold the same ire for all fianna fail td's?

or are you just trying to blame the greens for the treacherous activities of another political party?

Not sure if this is directed at Dev or myself, but I certainly have as much contempt for them both, in equal measures.

I am however more angry with Green Party TDs as I thought they held themselves to a higher standard than FF, I was wrong.

M three

OutlawPete wrote: »

Not sure if this is directed at Dev or myself, but I certainly have as much contempt for them both.

I am however more angry with the Green Party TDs as I thought they held themselves to a higher standard than FF, I was wrong.

question was for dv.

misguided anger pete. you seriously expected the greens to police fianna fail when the police themselves wont / cant do it??

DeVore

I didnt think that "ire" for Fianna Fail was in short supply so I presumed it was taken as "given"

DeV.

ArmaniJeanss

DeVore wrote: »

I find this answer deeply unsatifactory and smacks of glib smart-arsedness.

In fairness your question was deeply unsatisfactory and smacked of glib oversimplification of the issues, and soundbite-ism at its worst.
It got the type of answer it deserved imo.

*****
You still play poker?
In poker terms it would be -EV of the Greens to abandon government at this stage. They will get wiped out which will mean that there is no chance of their being in a position to have some of their policies implemented. Staying in government means that some of their policies will be implemented over the next 18 months.

Patriotism may also be a truthful answer by the way. There is no obvious reason at this stage to expect anything other than a hung Dail if the country had a general election tomorrow; with the 6 main parties and a swathe of local-issue independents spending months trying to make up the majority 87 votes to form a government. This FF/Greens/exPD/a.n.other mess we have at the moment may be fondly looked back on as a stable government in the next decade.

DeVore

Actually, to be completely fair... Paul Gogarty is in my firing line because he

1. Is claiming to be madly "angry" about what FF is doing but continues to support them.

2. Is the only one who seems to be engaging with the populace.

He should be castigated for 1 and praised for 2. imho. He is, at least, not hiding behind Leinster Houses gates (truck-proof or otherwise). I'll say that for him.


DeV

DeVore

Armani, Twitter doesnt allow for long discourses.... I had to craft that question carefully just to get it into the character limit.

I also dont disagree that the alternative to our goverment isnt much better. The whole thing is a mess but I find it galling that someone can proffer a high minded concept such as "patriotism" while clearly abandoning the wishes of the electorate and appearing to save his own skin.

Since when did "they know best"? Isnt the electorate the supreme authority in a democracy?

DeV.

OutlawPete

M three wrote: »

question was for dv.

Apologies.

M three wrote: »

..misguided anger pete. you seriously expected the greens to police fianna fail when the police themselves wont / cant do it??

No, never said that I expected them to "police fianna fail".

I expected them to have some back bone and stand firm to the issues and polices that they seem to hold so dear.

The Green Party were like clowder of Cheshire cats at the beginning of the affair and so they clearly must have swallowed whatever FF had sold to them.

Then then began rolling over and compromising on a daily basis to the point where it became laughable.

Everytime this happened, they would come out with the usual rubbish about how they worked hard to get whatever breadcrumbs FF gave them and that the Green Party's members should really be happy to get that much because of the economic climate and how Green issues are no longer being given priority.

The truth is, they liked the taste of power and still do and will do whatever it takes to hang on to it.

I don't care who is in Government next to be honest with you, just once neither of those two parties are, that's all that matters to me.

DeVore

I expect them to police themselves. They havent.

I also expect them to not lie down with dogs and then complain of fleas.


DeV.

southsiderosie

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

In poker terms it would be -EV of the Greens to abandon government at this stage. They will get wiped out which will mean that there is no chance of their being in a position to have some of their policies implemented. Staying in government means that some of their policies will be implemented over the next 18 months.

Like what? The government has NO MONEY. We're likely to see Green initiatives getting cut, not the other way around.

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Patriotism may also be a truthful answer by the way. There is no obvious reason at this stage to expect anything other than a hung Dail if the country had a general election tomorrow; with the 6 main parties and a swathe of local-issue independents spending months trying to make up the majority 87 votes to form a government. This FF/Greens/exPD/a.n.other mess we have at the moment may be fondly looked back on as a stable government in the next decade.

The spin here make my head hurt. It would not take months to form a government; the markets wouldn't allow it. Plus Labour would have to be very clear about who they would and would not go into government with before the election.

In addition, I think a broader coalition government would go a long way in preventing the kind of information hoarding that the current government is involved in. This is one of the most critical moments in the history of the Republic, and the government does not seem to be able to shift out of back room wheeling and dealing mode. There needs to be an open honest debate about the nature of the upcoming cuts and the direction of the country from this point on, not fanciful employment reports and vague mumbling about moving forward.

OutlawPete wrote: »

FF voters historically have got very short memories when it comes to their party's shortcomings, I'm not so sure Green Party voters will.

THANK YOU. This is exactly what FF voters don't seem to get: in general, Green voters have much higher expectations of their party, and if they have to be in opposition to hang on to their base, then so be it. Green votes are based on policy not family history or raw populism. This was patently obvious in the 2009 local elections, especially in Dublin: Green candidates had doors slammed in their faces for propping up the FF government, and Labour got a huge bounce. Tough **** for them; like DeV said, if you lay down with dogs you may get up fleas.

Wide Road

DeVore wrote: »

The whole thing is a mess but I find it galling that someone can proffer a high minded concept such as "patriotism" while clearly abandoning the wishes of the electorate and appearing to save his own skin.

Since when did "they know best"? Isnt the electorate the supreme authority in a democracy?

DeV.

Are you implying that Paul should act on opinion polls? If so, Enda is in big trouble. You and your "thanks" friends are very quiet on this.

DeVore

Dude I last posted at something like 6am. You post at 11 saying I'm very quiet on something you just brought up a sentence before.

Contrary to popular belief, I do sleep.

I'm highlighting his response to my questions and prompting a discussion about whether this jibes with his proclaimed position of being a "rebel" and his own man. Either he is his own man and he is choosing to stay (which seems to be his line) or he is being disingenuous and saying one thing while his actions betray him. Beyond that it's up to his constituents to decide, ironically whenever we have the general election.

DeV.

DeVore

In fact I really wish he would come here and talk to us and explain his stance. Twitters character limit forces soundbites and stifles deep discussion on complex topics. Personally I would like to hear more of his reasoning for his stance.

DeV.