Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Pro-Israel BBC bias on Flotilla Massacre documentary.

Options
2456

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    joebucks wrote: »
    Prata du svenska ocksa? jattebra kompis!
    Shamefully not as well as you and I live here.
    robtri wrote: »
    thanks, that is an advance unedited copy, not finished and possibly not correct and missing parts , is there a final copy??????
    That is all I have robtri. I'll keep you posted though.


  • Options
    #33
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Why are all the IDF cheerleaders ignoring this from the UN report?
    The wounds are consistent with the deceased initially being shot from soldiers on board the helicopter above and receiving a further wound to the head while lying on the ground, already wounded.
    (...)
    live fire from above.They had been sheltering
    (...)
    One bullet entered from the top
    (...)
    The trajectory of both bullets was from top to bottom. He also received bruises consistent with plastic bullet impact



  • Options
    #34
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    alastair wrote: »
    Ken O'Keefe is a prize plonker. He's enough of a pain that you'd be sorely tempted to reconsider your position if you found yourself on the same side on any issue. Shame on the IDF for giving him a beating, but you couldn't be suprised that he happened to be the victim - the mix of strident misplaced egoism with the loopy ideological beliefs would surely drive Ghandi to give him a kick in the nuts.

    Are you surprised this passenger was the victim?

    He was shot twice, and the IDF soliders were kicking his wounds and picking him up and dropping him on the ground. Or what about the woman who was punched three times in the face by a male Israeli? Did she deserve it because of her ideologies?

    Robtri you should watch it too. I didn't know this either but apparently some of the commandos who committed the massacre were some of those who took part in the interrogation of the passengers.



  • Options
    #35
    CokaColumbo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 478 ✭✭CokaColumbo


    harryd2 wrote: »
    Is it necessary to block paper, fruit, cement, medical supplies? It's an apartheid regime.
    If you watch the documentary and review Israeli policy, you will note that the IDF does not seek to prevent the delivery of humanitarian aid, goods and supplies to Palestinian citizens. In the specific case of the flotilla incident, the IDF wished only to inspect the aid (which consisted of weapons also) and deliver it themselves to the Palestinians.

    The blockade only exists because Palestinian groups used to (and still attempt to) use the sea to import munitions, ingredients and devices in order to produce weaponry for use against Israeli citizens. Since the blockade has been in place and Israel has inspected incoming cargo, the number of rocket attacks etc. against civilian Israelis has decreased significantly. You should also note that Israel has since relaxed the land-blockade.

    And "Apartheid" is such an inapplicable word to describe the situation in the middle east. It is grossly offensive to those who do in fact suffer the ills of apartheid. Palestinians, and Muslims in general, who reside in Israel enjoy more rights and liberty than they do in their own countries. Look up the definition of apartheid and see how it conflicts with this fact.
    harryd2 wrote: »
    This is the view of extermists.
    Do you also belive most Muslims support 9/11 ?
    I think you'll find most Palestinans don't want to wipe every Jew off the face of the planet.
    They are happy to conceed a 2-state solution. But apartheid Israel won't accept it.


    No they killed people with LETHAL Weapons.
    I didn't say anything about 9/11. I said that various Muslim governments have a stated goal of killing all the Jews in the middle east.
    You are quick to distinguish ordinary Palestinians from the people they elect into office and give shelter to, but you are not so quick to do the same for Israelis. Think about why that is.

    If you look at the most recent set of peace-talks between Israelis and Palestinians, it was none other than Hamas who massacred five Israeli civilians in a drive-by shooting on the eve of the talks, declaring the act, "heroic". Who was the victim there and who didn't want the talks to succeed?


  • Options
    #36
    Phill Ewinn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭Phill Ewinn


    CokaColumbo wrote: »
    They were left with no choice but to board the ship........... Considering the circumstances, they were right to use lethal force.



    I don't even think this posts deserves a reply. However in the unlikely event that this is your honest belief I'll say this.
    Pirates may forthwith be executed without any Solemnity of Condemnation, by the Marine Law

    Is this the kind of outrageous consequence you're seeking? If murder, kidnap or piracy don't turn your stomach than you deserve no more of my time.

    CokaColumbo added to the ignore list.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    robtri
    Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    Phill Ewinn wrote: »
    I don't even think this posts deserves a reply. However in the unlikely event that this is your honest belief I'll say this.


    Is this the kind of outrageous consequence you're seeking? If murder, kidnap or piracy don't turn your stomach than you deserve no more of my time.

    CokaColumbo added to the ignore list.

    you do know this is a discussion forum ....

    or would u rather a forum where everyone thinks the same...


  • Options
    #38
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    alastair wrote: »
    Eh no - unless you're suggesting he was killed by a bean bag shotgun? That's not live ammo being used in that video.

    A-screengrab-from-the-Tur-006.jpg

    You obviously don't read anything I post. Cognitive dissonance is a bytch aint it?

    (again :rolleyes:) From the UN report regarding murder victim Ibrahim Bilgen.
    Forensic evidence shows that he was shot in the side of the head with a soft baton round at such close proximity and that an entire bean bag and its wadding penetrated the skull and lodged in the brain.

    Defend that.

    Besides...



    uzi__.jpg

    This is the 9mm ammo the mini UZI's use: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x19mm_Parabellum.

    Most of the murder victims and the wounded were shot with 9mm bullets. "A kind not used by Israeli commados. ". It's a joke and the jokes on you.


  • Options
    #39
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    harryd2 wrote: »
    No they killed people with LETHAL Weapons.

    duh. You don't say?

    What weapons did they use first?


  • Options
    #40
    robtri
    Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    You obviously don't read anything I post. Cognitive dissonance is a bytch aint it?

    (again :rolleyes:) From the UN report regarding murder victim Ibrahim Bilgen.



    Defend that.


    so the guy was shot with a standard non lethal weapon ( the irony is overwhelming here)
    so it is quite plausible that the death was not intentional then..


  • Options
    #41
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    You obviously don't read anything I post. Cognitive dissonance is a bytch aint it?

    (again :rolleyes:) From the UN report regarding murder victim Ibrahim Bilgen..

    again :rolleyes: - Is Ibrahim Bilgen Furkan Dogan? No he isn't - was Furkan Dogan killed with a beanbag gun? No he was not. Does the video show the murder of Furkan Dogan? No it does not.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    Phill Ewinn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭Phill Ewinn


    robtri wrote: »
    you do know this is a discussion forum ....

    where posters have the option to choose not to listen to the rantings of hate.


  • Options
    #43
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    meglome wrote: »
    Look as I've said I don't think Israel had any right to board that ship. However it's the use of the words massacre and mass murder that I have issue with. People died, no question about that. They died in an illegal action by Israel, no question about that. But I've seen nothing that points to a massacre or mass murder.

    Don't want to get into the other off topic stuff right now but I wanted to address this.

    It was by definition mass-murder and a massacre. It has nothing to with rhetoric or your or my opinions on what we consider a massacre or mass murder.

    MASS MURDER
    Mass murder (in military contexts, sometimes interchangeable with mass destruction) is the act of murdering a large number of people (four or more), typically at the same time or over a relatively short period of time.[1] (CHECK) According to the FBI, mass murder is defined as four or more murders occurring during a particular event with no cooling-off period between the murders. (CHECK) A mass murder typically occurs in a single location in which a number of victims are killed by an individual.[2]

    (CHECK)

    Mass murder may be committed by individuals or organizations. (CHECK) Examples are the shooting of unarmed protestors, the carpet bombing of cities, the lobbing of grenades into prison cells and the random execution of civilians.[3]
    (CHECK)

    MASSACRE
    1. The act or an instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly. (CHECK)


  • Options
    #44
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    alastair wrote: »
    again :rolleyes: - Is Ibrahim Bilgen Furkan Dogan? No he isn't - was Furkan Dogan killed with a beanbag gun? No he was not. Does the video show the murder of Furkan Dogan? No it does not.

    Typical. It doesn't matter if the video shows his murder or not. it was someone in the video if not him. What is important and undeniable is that that Furkan Dogan was brutally murdered. So lets stop dancing around the periphary trying to pick holes in items that doesn't.

    This is based on his autopsy report. I'd like you to explain the implications of the manner in which he died to me.
    Furkan Dogan, a nineteen-year old with dual Turkish and United States citizenship, was on the central area of the top deck filming with a small video camera when he was first hit with live fire. It appears that he was lying on the deck in a conscious, or semi-conscious, state for some time. In total Furkan received five bullet wounds, to the face, head, back thorax, left leg and foot. All of the entry wounds were on the back of his body, except for the face wound which entered to the right of his nose. According to forensic analysis, tattooing around the wound in his face indicates that the shot was delivered at point blank range.

    Furthermore, the trajectory of the wound, from bottom to top, together with a vital abrasion to the left shoulder that could be consistent with the bullet exit point, is compatible with the shot being received while he was lying on the ground on his back. The other wounds were not the result of firing in contact, near contact or close range, but it is not otherwise possible to determine the exact firing range. The wounds to the leg and foot were
    most likely received in a standing position.

    Start with the:

    1. Non violence of Dogan when he was shot: fillming with a camera
    2. Shot in the back from the helicopter and lay unconscious/semi-conscious on the ship for a while
    3. Some IDF murderous bastard finds the already dying Dogan and shoots him from point blank range in the face.


  • Options
    #45
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    robtri wrote: »
    so the guy was shot with a standard non lethal weapon ( the irony is overwhelming here)

    Is it possible to be overwhelmed with irony?
    :D;)
    robtri wrote: »
    so it is quite plausible that the death was not intentional then..

    No. It is not plausible in any shape or form whatsoever.

    I've posted this already. It is from the UN report and based on the official autopsy report.
    brahim Bilgen, a 60 year old Turkish citizen, from Siirt in Turkey, was on the top deck and was one of the first passengers to be shot. He received a bullet wound to the chest, the trajectory of which was from above and not at close range. He had a further two bullet wounds to the right side of the back and right buttock, both back to front. These wounds would not have caused instant death, but he would have bled to death within a short time without medical attention.

    Forensic evidence shows that he was shot in the side of the head with a soft baton round at such close proximity and that an entire bean bag and its wadding penetrated the skull and lodged in the brain. He had a further bruise on the right flank consistent with another beanbag wound. The wounds are consistent with the deceased initially being shot from soldiers on board the helicopter above and receiving a further wound to the head while lying on the ground, already wounded.

    Points to note:

    • Shot in the chest from the helicopter. i.e. before any IDF had boarded. Therefore not IDF self-defense.
    • Shot twice more from behind again from the helicopter.
    • He wouldn't have died if the Israelis opted to give him medical attention. Tragically instead...
    • They choose to press a bean bag rifle to the dying and helpless mans head and execute him.
    Quite clearly he was intentionally murdered. You wouldn't know it though if you trusted the panorama sham.


  • Options
    #46
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    CokaColumbo wrote: »
    your last 2 posts

    Incredible amount of mis/disinformation or fabrication/ignorance of facts in your last two posts especially. Haven't got the will to demonstrate it just yet; I will though :).


  • Options
    #47
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Typical. It doesn't matter if the video shows his murder or not.

    It does if you claim the video shows it. But I guess not if you really just want to rant and ignore the context of the post (that it doesn't show his killing).


  • Options
    #48
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Points to note:

    • Shot in the chest from the helicopter. i.e. before any IDF had boarded. Therefore not IDF self-defense.

    Right - because the helicopters disappeared once the boarding began, and no aerial shooting occurred after that point. Oh wait...

    Tell you what - try not to embellish the actual report with your own suppositions?


  • Options
    #49
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    alastair wrote: »
    Right - because the helicopters disappeared once the boarding began, and no aerial shooting occurred after that point. Oh wait...

    Tell you what - try not to embellish the actual report with your own suppositions?

    How about you read the actual report instead of posting this crap?
    However, it has concluded that live ammunition was used from the helicopter onto the top deck prior to the descent of the soldiers.


  • Options
    #50
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    How about you read the actual report instead of posting this crap?

    I've read the report. It makes clear that there's no evidence to suggest that anyone was killed prior to the boarding of the ship. It also makes clear that they don't know where Furkan Dogan was shot from initially. What it definitely doesn't support is the contention that he was:
    Shot in the chest from the helicopter. i.e. before any IDF had boarded. Therefore not IDF self-defense.


  • Options
    #51
    harryd2
    Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭harryd2


    alastair wrote: »
    ?? Is there a contradiction? Did they not board with non-lethal weapons, and use those non-lethal weapons rather than their side arms?
    No they killed people with LETHAL Weapons.
    alastair wrote: »
    duh. You don't say?
    What weapons did they use first?

    Doesn't matter what they used first, ultimately they killed people with their lethal weapons.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #52
    harryd2
    Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭harryd2


    CokaColumbo wrote: »
    this incident demonstrated that there is a deep anti-Israel bias in the Western media..

    Another example of the pro-muslim western media

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1Du97Sv61U


  • Options
    #53
    harryd2
    Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭harryd2


    CokaColumbo wrote: »
    If you watch the documentary and review Israeli policy, you will note that the IDF does not seek to prevent the delivery of humanitarian aid, goods and supplies to Palestinian citizens.

    Most NGO's there will disagree with you here.
    After the 2008 invasion many humanitarian trucks were blocked by the Israelis.
    CokaColumbo wrote: »
    In the specific case of the flotilla incident, the IDF wished only to inspect the aid (which consisted of weapons also) and deliver it themselves to the Palestinians.
    Given the record of the IDF it was safe to assume they would have removed anything that was on the banned list, including clothes, shoes, paper, fruit..


    CokaColumbo wrote: »
    You should also note that Israel has since relaxed the land-blockade.
    Yes this is true. Noted. It's basically Israel admitting that the blockade was over the top in the first place.
    A positive step nonetheless.
    Another positive step is Israel has let most of the Humaitarian aid from the flotilla through.
    This surprised me to be honest, as they have blocked much of it in the past.
    CokaColumbo wrote: »
    And "Apartheid" is such an inapplicable word to describe the situation in the middle east. It is grossly offensive to those who do in fact suffer the ills of apartheid.

    Perhaps Nazist would be a better term.

    CokaColumbo wrote: »
    Palestinians, and Muslims in general, who reside in Israel enjoy more rights and liberty than they do in their own countries.

    What country is Palestinians own country?
    European Jews don't belong there ethnically, if you look at the people of the surrounding countries.
    It's an insult to Palestinians to say they, in general, enjoy more liberty than muslims in other countries.
    Living under a blockade having had their land/infrastructure blown apart, can't rebuild it as no supplies allowed into the land. millions of gallons of raw sewage running into the sea every day as their sewrage plants are destroyed. Intermittent electricity, Jews not allowing water into the place.

    CokaColumbo wrote: »
    I didn't say anything about 9/11. I said that various Muslim governments have a stated goal of killing all the Jews in the middle east.

    I didn't say you did, I was asking.
    Yes various muslims have said this, and it's easy for Palestinians to subscribe to it given the daily torture they face.
    However they have conceded to a 2-state solution ie: Letting the Jews keep the land they colonised, and recognising the right for Israel to exist. But Israel won't accept.

    CokaColumbo wrote: »
    If you look at the most recent set of peace-talks between Israelis and Palestinians, it was none other than Hamas who massacred five Israeli civilians in a drive-by shooting on the eve of the talks, declaring the act, "heroic". Who was the victim there and who didn't want the talks to succeed?

    Similary there were 5 Palestinians shot & killed by the IDF the same day as the flotilla raids. Of course this didn't make any media as it happens daily at any rate.

    I don't celebrate or agree with the killing of anyone, but overall the Palestinians have suffered considerably more, and lost multiple times the number of people that Israel has.
    Looking at the 2008 invasion, 1400 palestinians were killed (inc 300 Children) which 14 casualties on the other side, some from friendly fire. 100x here.


  • Options
    #54
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    harryd2 wrote: »
    Most NGO's...
    HAHA. That shut them up; inconvenient truths have a way of doing that.


  • Options
    #55
    robtri
    Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    HAHA. That shut them up; inconvenient truths have a way of doing that.

    whats an NGO????


  • Options
    #56
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Cevdet Kiliçlar, a 38 year old Turkish citizen from Istanbul, was on the Mavi Marmara, in his capacity as a photographer employed by IHH. At the moment he was shot he was standing on the bridge deck on the port side of the ship near to the door leading to the main stairwell and was attempting to photograph Israeli soldiers on the top deck.

    According to the pathology reports, he received a single bullet to his forehead between the eyes. The bullet followed a horizontal trajectory which crossed the middle of the brain from front to back. He would have died instantly.Here he is in front of the camera working for the IHH.


    cache_1620257002.jpg?t=1275942624

    6a00d834522bcd69e20133f3471c3e970b-320wi
    Cevdet Kiliçlar, a 38 year old Turkish citizen from Istanbul, was on the Mavi Marmara, in his capacity as a photographer employed by IHH. At the moment he was shot he was standing on the bridge deck on the port side of the ship near to the door leading to the main stairwell and was attempting to photograph Israeli soldiers on the top deck.

    According to the pathology reports, he received a single bullet to his forehead between the eyes. The bullet followed a horizontal trajectory which crossed the middle of the brain from front to back. He would have died instantly.

    These are from his Flickr account. http://www.flickr.com/photos/48893402@N02/ Notice the humanity in his work. A terrorist? :rolleyes: A father of a young girl and boy more like.

    tumblr_l3ib63TkNR1qc6yndo1_500.jpg



    4480851831_d78713784b.jpg

    4480851759_b1df3c5206_m.jpg



    Here he is on the Mavi Marmara shortly before he was murdered, the same camera in hand as he had when he was executed.

    Resim_1276329213.jpg

    CAUTION GRAPHIC

    This is the cameraman with his brains literally blown out assassination style. The entry wound literally between his eyes. Murderous bastards.
    http://www.salem-news.com/stimg/september012010/israeli_self_defense_against.jpg


  • Options
    #57
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    robtri wrote: »
    whats an NGO????

    Non Government Organisation


  • Options
    #58
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    alastair wrote: »
    I've read the report. It makes clear that there's no evidence to suggest that anyone was killed prior to the boarding of the ship. It also makes clear that they don't know where Furkan Dogan was shot from initially. What it definitely doesn't support is the contention that he was:

    I hoped you paid more attention to the UN report than my posts.

    What you've quoted was made in reference to Bilgen not Furkan Dogan. I'm going to make this a little easier for you.
    Ibrahim Bilgen, a 60 year old Turkish citizen, from Siirt in Turkey, was on the top deck and was one of the first passengers to be shot. He received a bullet wound to the chest, the trajectory of which was from above and not at close range. He had a further two bullet wounds to the right side of the back and right buttock, both back to front. These wounds would not have caused instant death, but he would have bled to death within a short time without medical attention.

    Forensic evidence shows that he was shot in the side of the head with a soft baton round at such close proximity and that an entire bean bag and its wadding penetrated the skull and lodged in the brain. He had a further bruise on the right flank consistent with another beanbag wound. The wounds are consistent with the deceased initially being shot from soldiers on board the helicopter above and receiving a further wound to the head while lying on the ground, already wounded.

    Ok. Got that? One of the first passengers of 60+ to be shot. Was shot from above. You with me?

    Now. Combine this with what else we've learned from the UN report.
    However, it has concluded that live ammunition was used from the helicopter onto the top deck prior to the descent of the soldiers.

    Then add it to the remarkably consistent testimonies of his fellow passengers who describe him and others being shot by live ammunition from the helipcopters prior to boarding.

    Not that hard to figure out then is it?

    Ibrahim Dilgen "One of the first passengers to be shot" "was on the top deck" of the Mavi Marmara. His official autopsy revealed his injuries to being consistent with being shot first from the helicopter above. The UN fact finding mission has "concluded that live ammunition was used from the helicopter onto the deck prior to the descent of the soliders".

    In any case it is a red herring, tragic though it is. It is irrelevant who was shot first by live rounds from the helicopter as what is important is that there were shots fired prior to the Isreali commandos boarding, therefore prior to the edited IDF released footage, therefore no case for IDF self-defense (if ever there even was), therefore a crime against humanity.


  • Options
    #59
    harryd2
    Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭harryd2


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Not that hard to figure out then is it?

    It's pretty obvious to any sane person but yer up against the same propaganda crap as usual with the Israelis.
    When they forged the Irish passports.
    They kept quiet about it for days, until they concluded that they might get away with denying it. THEN they started to deny it.


  • Options
    #60
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    In any case it is a red herring, tragic though it is. It is irrelevant who was shot first by live rounds from the helicopter as what is important is that there were shots fired prior to the Isreali commandos boarding, therefore prior to the edited IDF released footage, therefore no case for IDF self-defense (if ever there even was), therefore a crime against humanity.

    Red herring my arse - there's no evidence that anyone was shot prior to the boarding - as reflected in the UN report. So when you state:
    • Shot in the chest from the helicopter. i.e. before any IDF had boarded. Therefore not IDF self-defense.

    It's a supposition not endorsed by the UN report.

    The IDF certainly shouldn't have boarded as they did, but spare the 'crime against humanity' exaggerations and fabricated claims for the UN report.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #61
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    harryd2 wrote: »
    It's pretty obvious to any sane person but yer up against the same propaganda crap as usual with the Israelis.
    When they forged the Irish passports.
    They kept quiet about it for days, until they concluded that they might get away with denying it. THEN they started to deny it.

    Yeah and they don't have 400 nukes either.

    It has just been reported that the Dubai Chief of Police recieved death threats from Mossad.
    http://arabnews.com/middleeast/article150601.ece


Advertisement