Do you think Fine Gael tds regret keeping Enda as leader?

nw1dqsv7amx026

Well the only people who get to vote for Bertie have to live in Dublin Central so it follows that people from Dublin voted for him???

I assumed you meant his government:)

snow ghost

Kaysen Attractive Typesetter wrote: »

Sounds like FG/Enda Kenny. You refuse to hear.

A National Public Opinion Poll was conducted on behalf of TV3 to be broadcast on 23rdSeptember 2010.
The topics covered were current party standings, Satisfaction with the Government and party leaders. Opinions on the fall out from An Taoiseach, Brian Cowen’s recent (Morning Ireland)interview were also measured.
Interviews were conducted over the telephone, with those aged 18+.
Quota controls were set on gender, age, social class and region to mirror the 18+ population profile.
Interviews were carried out on Tuesday 21stand Wednesday 22ndSeptember 2010.

I asked a question - how is that refusing to hear?

That said thanks for the details of the sample. It can be assusmed from that that most of the sample was done in Dublin, where most of the population resides.

As most statisticians will admit, statistics can be made to seemingly reflect anything. For example, in the poll almost as many Sinn Fein voters wanted Gilmore to be the the next taoiseach as they did Gerry Adams, are we supposed to presume from this that SF should change leader?

It also found that approximately half of the electorate didn't want a general election yet - as such half of the sample are not of sane mind in my humble opinion and their opinions on everything else should be treated with utter contempt.

nw1dqsv7amx026

I'm afraid I agree with Mr Darcy (except the SF bit).

Pity really because I would like to see a FG government!

BlaasForRafa

snow ghost wrote: »

Dublin voters also put in Bertie - says it all really. :rolleyes: Once again the country is being sold down the river by the pale.

Thats crap and you know it.

Also Kenny only won the leadership contest by using the same fashion of cute whoorism and parish-pump politics thats made irish politics the mess that it is since the founding of the state.

Kenny may be a crafty politician with a few heavies like Phil Hogan but thats exactly the kind of politician that the public DON'T want and its being proved time and again. Like previous posters said, FG should be cleaning up and considering how hated FF are they should be around 40% but they're nowhere near that and most of the blame for that goes on Kenny's shoulders.

nw1dqsv7amx026

snow ghost wrote: »

I asked a question - how is that refusing to hear?

That said thanks for the details of the sample. It can be assusmed from that that most of the sample was done in Dublin, where most of the population resides.

As most statiticians will admit, statistics can be made to seemingly reflect anything. For example, in the poll almost as many Sinn Fein voters wanted Gilmore to the the next taoiseach as they did Gerry Adams, are we supposed to presume from this that SF should change leader?

Enda Kenny and his supporters are refusing to hear!

The rest of course you are right!

Most of the population live in Dublin! So, yes an Dublin bias against you is not going to help.

The poll suggests it is not just Dublin, I can't say since I live in Dublin!

Polls have been badly wrong before because you might say one thing and do something different.

Life long FF supporters might find it hard to vote against them! 2 years from now all might be forgiven! If it lasts that long.

Ash.J.Williams

Just thinking back to the last election again....Didn't FG hire an American PR firm for their election and it looked f**ing rediculous.....whilst FF just ploughed on their usual manner...

Corsendonk

I would consider myself a voting floater. I would vote 1 for FG but not with Enda in charge. No charisma, not much experience in the real world of work apart from 3 years as a teacher that he keeps telling everyone. The guy seems a good party organiser but not the type to inspire people out of a recession.

MrDarcy

Kaysen Attractive Typesetter wrote: »

Enda Kenny and his supporters are refusing to hear!

The rest of course you are right!

Most of the population live in Dublin! So, yes an Dublin bias against you is not going to help.

The poll suggests it is not just Dublin, I can't say since I live in Dublin!

Polls have been badly wrong before because you might say one thing and do something different.

Life long FF supporters might find it hard to vote against them! 2 years from now all might be forgiven! If it lasts that long.

Ya know my requirement from anyone to wants to lead this country is really very simple, it's not rocket science or in any convoluted at all. All I'm looking for is some basic f*cking PASSION. I look at Gilmore when he is on the news, his stiffled and coached manner of speaking points to a man who has spent his life in committee meetings. Kenny is even worse, with his cynical manner on everything while never actually having any answer on anything.

When I saw Bruton on PrimeTime when the big heave was on, for the first time in YEARS, I saw some f*cking passion from a politician. Talking from the heart, saying it as it is, an ability to identify with the person on the dole or the family in dire straits and an understanding of the urgency of the situation we are now in. I actually felt relieved listening to him because I genuinely didn't think that the people in FG would be so utterly so f*cking STUPID to leave Kenny in place when there was clearly such a better candidate for the role that Kenny had occupied.

When Bruton spoke, there was no, "we have turned the corner", or "look at the little green shoots", or, "let's all move forward now"... No there was simply looking the camera in the eye and saying that unless we start doing something very different from what we are doing at the moment, we are in the manure business, he spoke about people being literally terrified, how wave after wave of pessimism is wrecking the country, because people are afraid that we don't actually have a plan to get out of this.

There's an old saying, "any wind is favourable if you do not know to which port you are sailing", if you want to get out of a bad situation then it starts with a clear and simple plan and everyone involved has to know and understand where they fit into the plan.

None of that is currently happening here, there is no plan, and token soundbytes such as, "the smart economy", "the green economy", "the knowledge economy", does not constitute a plan.

Ultimately FG have failed this entire country by leaving Kenny in place, and for what you must wonder??? Because proven GOBSH*TES like PJ Sheehan and Phil Hogan reckon that they will go further under Kenny than under Bruton.

MrDarcy

Corsendonk wrote: »

I would consider myself a voting floater. I would vote 1 for FG but not with Enda in charge. No charisma, not much experience in the real world of work apart from 3 years as a teacher that he keeps telling everyone. The guy seems a good party organiser but not the type to inspire people out of a recession.

Jesus Christ a teacher in charge of the country, could you imagine anything more f*cking dangerous at this time???

MrDarcy

Kaysen Attractive Typesetter wrote: »

Enda Kenny and his supporters are refusing to hear!

The rest of course you are right!

Most of the population live in Dublin! So, yes an Dublin bias against you is not going to help.

The poll suggests it is not just Dublin, I can't say since I live in Dublin!

Polls have been badly wrong before because you might say one thing and do something different.

Life long FF supporters might find it hard to vote against them! 2 years from now all might be forgiven! If it lasts that long.

Sure wasn't Michael Collins from Cork?!?

snow ghost

If Bruton ever became leader of this country it really would be time to leave and let the last person turn out the lights.

Bruton showed how devious and inept he was when he decided to lead a leadership challenge in his own party when there was a vote of no-confidence in the leader of the government, a leader of the opposition party and government who was culpabale for the major mess the country is in.

He put his own selfish aspirations above that of the country or his party... imagine what the traitor would do to the country if he was willing to stab his own leader in the back at a time when he shoudl have been putting the boot into Cowen?

To make matters worse the idiot Bruton went on Vincent Brown that night and giggled like a little girl when asked why he did it.

A drunk Cowen is more credible and has more integrity than Bruton.

MrDarcy

snow ghost wrote: »

If Bruton ever became leader of this country it really would be time to leave and let the last person turn out the lights.

Bruton showed how devious and inept he was when he decided to lead a leadership challenge in his own party when there was a vote of no-confidence in the leader of the government, a leader of the opposition party and government who was culpabale for the major mess the country is in.

He put his own selfish aspirations above that of the country or his party... imagine what the traitor would do to the country if he was willing to stab his own leader in the back at a time when he shoudl have been putting the boot into Cowen?

To make matters worse the idiot Bruton went on Vincent Brown that night and giggled like a little girl when asked why he did it.

A drunk Cowen is more credible and has more integrity than Bruton.

There's never a perfect time for change. Any person who has the guts to put themselves out there at the moment deserves a huge amount of credit for that alone, especially in a country full of begrudgers like this place.

Breezer

jmayo wrote: »

As for the Kenny vs Bruton old argument, people might call Kenny a buffoon or eejit, but that same eejit had the political know how and balls to take on the so called brainy young tigers within the party and beat them.

Any future taoiseach is going to need balls and a will to get stuck in and fight, things I believe Bruton is sorely lacking in comparison to Kenny.
Burton has the economic brains, but I reckon he hasn't the will to fight for things.

This point notwithstanding, every single TD that I liked in FG, who I felt could think, who represented what I like about FG, supported Bruton.

I have no problem with Kenny's lack of charisma etc. as I don't deem it to be overly important in terms of running the country. I do have a problem with the fact that he is now a lame duck, propped up by cute hoor politicians who are the reason people say there is no difference between FG and FF.

We're going to have some form of FG/Labour coalition after the next election. With Labour being all things to all people à la Bertie-era FF, and FG being run by parish pump politicians, it's gonna be as you were lads.

SeanW

deise go deo wrote: »

Just wait for the Budget and see how many people support FF,
Why should how charming Enda is matter anyway, look at what happened when carismatic leaders were in power.
From all accounts Enda is a very different person in real life, Why should we care that he just cant put it accross on camera?

We shouldn't care about charisma, or lack of it, and should prefer to appraise our leaders based on their integrity and their politics.

Unfortunately, that's what we are NOT doing, and that's why Enda K. should have been replaced. Not because he wouldn't make a good leader, but because his lack of apparent personality will prevent him from becoming leader. The probable result from Election 2012 will have Eamon Gilmore as Taoisach, and Enda Kenny as Tanaiste.

Which is a shame.

rugbyman

Seanohea and Gelvinc

Might I ask you who /which party you voted for in the last election.

might I ask how much your decision was basedon the leadership of the chosen ones party, rather than whether that candidate was , iyo, the best on offer to you.

regards ,Rugbyman

enda1

A lot of the fine gael TD's are fairly settled in their 9-5 lifestyle. They don't actually want to get into power and thus have to do something. This way they still get their +100k +expenses +pension, without having to do any hard work and without having to make any enemies in their communities.

This is the main reason Bruton was voted down. He started shaking the boat and woke them up from their slumber.

Bottle_of_Smoke

MrDarcy wrote: »

There's never a perfect time for change. Any person who has the guts to put themselves out there at the moment deserves a huge amount of credit for that alone, especially in a country full of begrudgers like this place.

Whatever about a perfect time. He actually chose the worst possible week to do it in the last 5 years!

nw1dqsv7amx026

I voted independent the last local election.
I have in the past voted, Labour, PD, Greens and mostly FG. Never FF or SF!

I had great admiration for Richard Bruton but was very disappointed to see him take a front bench position after the vote. I think it may have ruined his credibility. It was because he is honourable that he made a mess of the coup!
He needed to be sneaky!

I think if FG had chosed him as leader there would have been a strong chance that FG could have had a significant majority in any coalition.

I am angry that Enda Kenny and his supporters do not see the choice we have, ie:-

Who is the least worst option for government? Excuse my English!

Guess the people are saying Labour!

jmayo

MrDarcy wrote: »

Jesus Christ a teacher in charge of the country, could you imagine anything more f*cking dangerous at this time???

Could it be any worse than say a lawyer or a bookkeeper who claims he went to unviersity and is a chartered acocuntant ?

The next government is probably going to be FG and Labour, no matter even if Obama, JFK or Michael Collins is in charge of FG.
Kenny is despised, not just disliked, and ff have done well in acheiving that, but anyone that thinks Bruton is going to lead anyone to the promised land is I believe deluded.
He knows his economics, but his real political abilities and timing has been shown to be cr**, his ability to really debate is not actually great and I don't see him having the touchy feely ability at all, which even though Kenny hasn't it in public he does have it in more intimate surroundings.

The best FG leader they could have would be someone like Ivan Yates.
Sadly he is no konger in the game.

Anyway the next coalition government will not last since Labour will not be willing to confront their union buddies and Labour members like jack o'connor.

I am sorry to say the sad thing is I predict a ff of some sort, possibly a New ff, to be back in power for the 2016 centenary. :mad:

MrDarcy

jmayo wrote: »

Could it be any worse than say a lawyer or a bookkeeper who claims he went to unviersity and is a chartered acocuntant ?

The next government is probably going to be FG and Labour, no matter even if Obama, JFK or Michael Collins is in charge of FG.
Kenny is despised, not just disliked, and ff have done well in acheiving that, but anyone that thinks Bruton is going to lead anyone to the promised land is I believe deluded.
He knows his economics, but his real political abilities and timing has been shown to be cr**, his ability to really debate is not actually great and I don't see him having the touchy feely ability at all, which even though Kenny hasn't it in public he does have it in more intimate surroundings.

The best FG leader they could have would be someone like Ivan Yates.
Sadly he is no konger in the game.

Anyway the next coalition government will not last since Labour will not be willing to confront their union buddies and Labour members like jack o'connor.

I am sorry to say the sad thing is I predict a ff of some sort, possibly a New ff, to be back in power for the 2016 centenary. :mad:

Well a solicitor or a book keeping I imagine would not be coming out of a kind of entrenched warfare mentality that a teacher would be used to. I'm no fan of solicitors, but useless and all as they are, they are typically self employed. Teachers spend their whole working lives avoiding and obstructing change. There is no accountability within their profession whatsoever, a teacher CANNOT be dismissed from their post no matter how useless they are, they are used to automatic pay increments that to me are just plain wrong.

As for timing, the time for doing anything is "now". Bruton decided that action was required and he took action. It wasn't necessary to consider the timing or what was going on in another party. This is all part of what's wrong with this country, people spend far too much time looking at the optics of a situation and while spending several weekends reading and studying the Sunday Indo and pondering and feeling the political landscape that might have some small bearing on the matter, they fail to take action NOW, in case the optics might not look right on the day, meanwhile, NOTHING ACTUALLY GETS DONE!!!

He rightly understood the absolute urgency of the situation we are in and he took action. When he sh*t really hit's the fan around here IMF style, we can say someone tried to take action but as is always the way in this country, petty pathethic gombeen self interests over-ruled the need of the day.

snow ghost

Someone said Kenny spent all of three years as a teacher. So what - Michael Collins worked in a bank, didn't stop him being an effective leader.

What a weak point raving on about him being a teacher when he has been in politics for much, much longer.

Bruton let the country and his own party down when he chose to stab his leader in the back rather than focus attention on getting rid of Cowen et al.

Bruton's disgraceful timing and actions means he will always be seen as a failed backstabbing weasle with nothing whatsoever to offer.

jmayo

MrDarcy wrote: »

Well a solicitor or a book keeping I imagine would not be coming out of a kind of entrenched warfare mentality that a teacher would be used to. I'm no fan of solicitors, but useless and all as they are, they are typically self employed. Teachers spend their whole working lives avoiding and obstructing change. There is no accountability within their profession whatsoever, a teacher CANNOT be dismissed from their post no matter how useless they are, they are used to automatic pay increments that to me are just plain wrong.

So seeing as the two guys at the top, have over the last couple of years made anything upto a 100 billion (include all financial institutions recapitalisation and probable NAMA related losses) of private sector debt the nation's debt, are legal professionals does that not question ability of legal professionals to run the country ?

To a degree you are indulging in something that became apparent when Brian Whelehan was being touted for election in Laois/Offally which is that some people look down their noses or dismiss some because they are not educated enough or not in certain professions.

We didn't need an economics expert as Toasieach or indeed minister of finance to prevent the banks meltdown in the first place.
We just needed someone cauctious with a bit of cop on and good old honesty.
That way the lunacy where 100% mortgages were been dished out to kids with no savings to buy overpriced property from developers with billion euro loans for ego projects could have been averted.

MrDarcy wrote: »

As for timing, the time for doing anything is "now". Bruton decided that action was required and he took action. It wasn't necessary to consider the timing or what was going on in another party. This is all part of what's wrong with this country, people spend far too much time looking at the optics of a situation and while spending several weekends reading and studying the Sunday Indo and pondering and feeling the political landscape that might have some small bearing on the matter, they fail to take action NOW, in case the optics might not look right on the day, meanwhile, NOTHING ACTUALLY GETS DONE!!!

He rightly understood the absolute urgency of the situation we are in and he took action. When he sh*t really hit's the fan around here IMF style, we can say someone tried to take action but as is always the way in this country, petty pathethic gombeen self interests over-ruled the need of the day.

Sorry what a load of ****.
Bruton got caught in the headlights the night he was interviewed by a so so RTE interviewer mirriam o'callaghan.
Good God she is no Brian Farrell or Olivia O'Leary.
He then made a bags of his removal of Kenny and made an absolutely terrible hames of an interview on Vincent Browne's show.

What action did he take ?
He decided to make his move, probably with advice of his returned brother and he then proceeded to make a bags of it.

Even if he had won would FG have ousted ff by now.
No they wouldn't since they can't do anything short of shooting the opposition benches to remove them from power.

All I ever hear is "why doesn't Kenny get cowen out ?".
When the f*** are people going to cop on the ones who can get them out are us, the people.
If enough people (including public, private, student, worker, retired) make their daily lives difficult with say a continous mass protest or mass boycott then they have to give up.

Then I hear "why doesn't Kenny call for this" ?
It is very dangerous route for any politican to go down demanding countrywide mass stoppages since they might see it as releasing the genie from the bottle.
That could be the reason why even the great spoofer and media favourite of some Gilmore doesn't request it either.

BTW I don't read the sunday indo unless I get free copy such as in hotel as I refuse to part with cash to ff lackie idiots such as eoghan harris, fionan sheehan, john drennan and brendan o'connor.
I also no longer buy the tribune since they have on their payroll simon kelly who scoffs at the debts his father and indeed probably himself have left the state.

Seanohea

rugbyman wrote: »

Seanohea and Gelvinc

Might I ask you who /which party you voted for in the last election.

might I ask how much your decision was basedon the leadership of the chosen ones party, rather than whether that candidate was , iyo, the best on offer to you.

regards ,Rugbyman

I voted for fianna fail in the last general election, and since i'm an electrician and involved in the construction industry you can see why i voted the way i did.

I obviously have no real blind party allegiance, the way i vote will be based which candidate or partie's policies i agree with the most.
My decision to vote for fianna fail in the last election would have been influenced in some way at the time by Bertire Ahern being the leader, i had great respect for him at the time, and could easily understand what he was saying and the point he was trying to make on any issue when he spoke in public.

I can't understand the criticism of Richard Bruton for trying to become leader of Fine Gael when he did. Any suggestion that he did it for himself and for his own selfish reasons doesnt make sense in my opinion. I think he was brave to do what he did and as were every fine gael TD that opposed Enda Kenny.
They were all leaving themselves open to being removed from front bench positions, they did what they did in the interest of the country and in the interest of the Fine Gael party.
They recognise the electorate do not want Enda Kenny as the next taoiseach, and at this moment in time Richard Bruton has to be the best option in the Fine Gael party. An intelligent, articulate politician, a great debater in my opinion, and someone who can easily think and repond on his feet.

The Bishop Basher

Speaking with our local FG councellor at the door step at the last local elections I raised the Enda Kenny issue with him..

I told him I would never vote for FG in a GE as long as Enda is the leader of the party. He admitted that he'd been hearing that a lot !!

At the time of the leadership challenge I heard the same councellor on the radio supporting Enda's leadership.

FG have only themselves to blame. I see a lot of sheep on here calling Bruton a backstabber. I disagree. He knows what's good for his party and good for this country and he tried to do something about it.

The leader's popularity polls have been saying the same thing for nearly three years now. It's shame the majority of FG are so blind to reality.

jmayo

Seanohea wrote: »

...
I obviously have no real blind party allegiance, the way i vote will be based which candidate or partie's policies i agree with the most.
My decision to vote for fianna fail in the last election would have been influenced in some way at the time by Bertire Ahern being the leader, i had great respect for him at the time, and could easily understand what he was saying and the point he was trying to make on any issue when he spoke in public.

Sorry after a comment like that and what was already known about him at the time of the last election I just disregard the rest of your post.

PS you must be one of the few that could understand the points he was trying to make on some occassions he was speaking lkike for instance in the Tribunals in Dublin Castle.

Seanohea wrote: »

...
...at this moment in time Richard Bruton has to be the best option in the Fine Gael party. An intelligent, articulate politician, a great debater in my opinion, and someone who can easily think and repond on his feet.

I knew I shouldn't have read on, but please Bruton a great debater ?
He has on a few occassions being pushed out of it by what appears to be lesser intellects belonging to opposing ffers.

Although is it anywonder you laud Bruton so much as debater if you could manage to fully understand bertie all the time.

Swanner wrote: »

... FG have only themselves to blame. I see a lot of sheep on here calling Bruton a backstabber. I disagree. He knows what's good for his party and good for this country and he tried to do something about it.

The leader's popularity polls have been saying the same thing for nearly three years now. It's shame the majority of FG are so blind to reality.

First thing I never called Bruton a back stabber, I said he was politically stupid, probally naieve and not the great shakes the media and more than a few people around here believe.

Secondly I am no FG sheep as I am not nor never have been a member.
Yes I do vote for them, but that is because I realised they probably best reprsented my views and aspirations.

From the 1980s under the leadership of haughey I realised what ff stod for was not in my interest nor usually even in the interest of the country.
Nothing since has really made me change my opinion of the soldiers of dysentery.
In fact all the dodgy unethical members and deals have just solidified my opinion that they should be outlawed as a subversive organisation intent on destroying the state.

Labour have always been too tight with public sector dominated unions for my taste so they only ever get a lower preference.
The PDs were always in my opinion too right wing and sadly just one step away from their ff roots.

Raiser

Fine Gael have only had 8 years of watching Enda Kenny fail as Leader - Perhaps in another 8 years or so they'll decide they've given up on him?

Seanohea

jmayo wrote: »

I knew I shouldn't have read on, but please Bruton a great debater ?
He has on a few occassions being pushed out of it by what appears to be lesser intellects belonging to opposing ffers.

Although is it anywonder you laud Bruton so much as debater if you could manage to fully understand bertie all the time.

You say on a few occasions Bruton has been pushed out of it by lesser intellects, if this can be described as shouting him down without any real substance in their answers, i have seen it happen but i dont think that the substance and facts behind Richard Bruton's responces can ever be questioned. I have rarely seen him caught out or having to rely on typical politicial cliches.

One thing is for sure, even though i disagreed with what he was saying at times or his policies, i found it far easier to listen to Bertie than to the dithering of Enda Kenny.

Idbatterim

FG and FF could do themselves alot of favours by getting rid of their leaders, who cares what those in the party want, we will be the ones who count come vote time. Its all so easy, Kenny and Cowen, could just step down, saying its in the interest of the party. I dont see why they need to be overthrown, when they are useless. Labour being the most popular party according to the poll that was run frightens me. And FF and FG can immediately change that, but arent doing anything about it. But ofcourse Im not surporsied labour are doing so well, sure they wont be cutting anything, they are just going to pull money out of their a**!

flutered

kenny is a teacher, when i watch or listen to him it is akin to watching wood wrap,does he pocket the difference between his replacements salery and what would be his own, will he be intitled to part of a teachers pension as well as the perks from kildare street, my local fg activist is a retired primary head, who also is drawing disibility benifit, with 3 nice little earners as well, the local labour candidate in the next election will be a teacher, now i am left with the dff, i have no one that i can vote for, unless a candidate that appeals to me comes out of the blue, (hopefully)

Carstuck

jmayo wrote: »

I knew I shouldn't have read on, but please Bruton a great debater ?
He has on a few occassions being pushed out of it by what appears to be lesser intellects belonging to opposing ffers.

Although is it anywonder you laud Bruton so much as debater if you could manage to fully understand bertie all the time.


Bruton is an excellent debater. One of the few politicians that actually answer qustions and that give a real understanding on economic issues. Kenny on the other hand gives such a stupid answer that another member of the party nearly has to clear it up. Remember his 'stunt' on the Late Late Show? Laughable tbh.