Kolb Vs Vick

Benimar

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5604002

Could they really trade Kolb?!! Seems a bit crazy to me, he was their 'future' 10 days ago :eek:

ReacherCreature

Ah Christ, the Eagles can't be serious about even attempting to listen to trade enquires. Vick's started one game and played one - it's not guaranteed that he'll be this productive throughout. Kolb is and should be their future - given a shot at least.

raven136

Think this is a really good piece on the Vick/Kolb issue written by the excellent Jason Whitlock:

"Of course trading Donovan McNabb to a divisional rival to make way for the Kevin Kolb era was a huge mistake.


The solution to that error isn’t to ignore Michael Vick’s unexpected brilliant play, the shaky performance of Philadelphia’s offensive line and return Kolb to the starting lineup.


What you do is assess the new information and make the decision that gives your football team the best chance to win now and going forward.

This is Andy Reid’s finest moment. His critics come off as disingenuous and/or obtuse. We beg for powerful, prideful and wealthy men to demonstrate the courage to admit their mistakes and quickly correct them.

Late Tuesday afternoon, Reid did just that, acknowledging his intelligence might have overstated Kolb’s weapons of mass construction and recognizing Vick might finally be prepared to ascend to his QB destiny.


Reid hasn’t damaged the immediate or long-term future of the Philadelphia Eagles. He’s making a play to enhance both.

There’s a reason Vick was the No. 1 overall pick of the 2001 draft and Kolb was the 36th pick of the 2007 draft. Vick was supposed to be the next Steve Young, a left-handed Hall-of-Fame quarterback with the athleticism to play receiver. Kolb, with a little luck, was supposed to be a poor man’s Drew Brees.

The second coming of Steve Young is superior to a cheap Drew Brees knockoff, especially when your offensive line consistently fails to protect the quarterback.

Vick can be Philly’s starting quarterback for at least the next six years. He’s just 30, the same age Young was when he took over in San Francisco. Young won a Super Bowl and two MVP trophies during his eight-year reign in the Bay.



Look, I’m no huge Michael Vick fan. I trashed him pretty much the entire time he played in Atlanta. He reminded me of Allen Iverson, a great talent who lacked the discipline, character and professionalism to be a big-time winner. I repeatedly pointed out that Vick’s black sycophants/enablers were the main reason he failed to mature. Hell, just a couple of months ago, I wrote this column bashing Vick for hosting a “white linen” party that ended in gunfire.

But I’m not going to deny the kid is balling out of control right now. I’m happy he’s finally living up to his potential. And I pray that prison, a year learning under McNabb, mentoring from Tony Dungy and the amazing demonstration of faith Reid and the Eagles organization just showered on Vick help the QB properly handle this success.

I’m like Andy Reid. I’m willing to adjust to new information.

Vick did hard time, lost a fortune and destroyed his reputation for his involvement in a dogfighting ring. That debt is paid. We have to be open minded and let the new Michael Vick emerge.

I absolutely love what I’m seeing on the football field.

“His accelerated play was brilliant,” Reid told reporters in Philadelphia Tuesday. “This is what I think is right. He’s back and maybe even a little better.”

Hell yes, he’s better. He’s more focused. He has more weapons than he ever had in Atlanta. DeSean Jackson, Jeremy Maclin, Brent Celek and LeSean McCoy are all in-their-prime playmakers.

What I love most about Vick 2.0 is the humility he’s shown throughout this process. After he backed up his marvelous second-half play against the Packers with a fabulous performance against the Lions, Vick stated he had no problem turning the team back over to Kolb. When Reid flip-flopped Tuesday, Vick told ESPN’s Sal Paolantonio that he felt “humbled.”

This is potentially a phenomenal story about the kind of redemption that is possible in America. The story is about the possibilities that lie ahead, not what transpired in the past.

McNabb is still my favorite current player. I’m still not happy the Eagles jettisoned him shortly after they acquired a group of skill position players who could complement McNabb’s abilities.

I began this season hoping Kolb would fail, Vick would be a disaster and Reid would get bounced on his ample ass.

I’ve changed my mind. This is a better story.

An organization with a reputation for cheapness and stubbornness gave Kolb $10.5 million in guaranteed money, committed to Kolb throughout the offseason and reacted properly when presented a set of new facts.

Reid is my new favorite football coach, and I hope the Eagles reach the Super Bowl."

cooker3

I disagree with pretty much all of that article. Vick didn't have the arm and never will have the arm to win a championship imo. He is 30 so the main feature which makes him stand out, his pace, is going to diminish so not a chance in hell he is their main QB for 6 years.

I think dropping Kolb, because of 1 bad half is madness. If you go by that logic Belichick should drop Brady after the 2nd half vs the Jets.

As far as I am concerned what he is doing is very damaging mid-long term to the Eagles. He is desperately trying to save his job and, consequently, sacrificing any chance Kolb has of being the multi-season QB for the Eagles just so he gets another year in the job. Kolb's confidence must be absolutely shot now.

Syferus

I'd guess that depending on the preformance of Vick being consistent enough to take the Eagles to the play-offs - taking the still in the air idea that he'll be the starter at the end of the season for granted - that the Eagles would want to keep both of them, at least for next year unless someone loves Kolb and is willing to give something huge in return for him.

Who knows, they may end up franchising Vick and trading him next year, alá Cassel a couple of years back.

Stev_o

Reid's kicked himself up the ass though coming out to the media and changing his words around to say that Vick is the number one. Paints him in a bad light for the public and fans mean really can people take his word now? He should of left this whole discussion behind closed doors imo.

Dohnny Jepp

cooker3 wrote: »

I disagree with pretty much all of that article. Vick didn't have the arm and never will have the arm to win a championship imo. He is 30 so the main feature which makes him stand out, his pace, is going to diminish so not a chance in hell he is their main QB for 6 years.

I think dropping Kolb, because of 1 bad half is madness. If you go by that logic Belichick should drop Brady after the 2nd half vs the Jets.

As far as I am concerned what he is doing is very damaging mid-long term to the Eagles. He is desperately trying to save his job and, consequently, sacrificing any chance Kolb has of being the multi-season QB for the Eagles just so he gets another year in the job. Kolb's confidence must be absolutely shot now.

Because Kolb has shown so much potential? It's one thing looking good at training, but another to be good in matches. Kolb aint ever been good in maches, so how can he be considered the future.

frostie500

I really dont know what to think about this anymore, in the summer I was excited by Kolb and the faith the team had in him. But after I rewatched Vick's second half against the Packer and the Lions game I have to say Vick looked terrific.

When you see him performing miracles in the pocket(there is no other word for the way he consistently kept plays alive) its impossible not to think that the Eagles need to keep playing him. Vick is a better football player than Kolb right now and the Eagles need to evaluate him and see which of them is the future leader of the team. Kolb got a new deal but it only has two years to run so we're not married to the guy just yet.

Vick on the other hand has only a year left and to be honest if he keeps playing like he has, and putting in the effort in film study and practice, he could be an unbelievable player for us. Its worth remembering that when he led the Falcons to an NFC title game in 04 everyone thought he could get teams to that level consistently(thats why he was the number 1 overall as well). From that point on obviously his career went off the rails but he has all the physical attribues-speed, elusivness and a rocket arm-top succeed in the NFL if he continues to put in 100% effort to the Eagles. He knows this is his last chance and the Eagles know he gives them the best chance to win. Vick is the starter until he starts making a mess of things

tallaghtoutlaws

Look guys this is simple. Andy Reid is stuck between a rock and a hard place. The only reason Vick has the starting spot is because recent performance and the fact the fans love him for some daft reason. Reid knows he is on borrowed time and starting Vick is giving him a longer rope to hang himself with.

Reid unfortunately has fallen into the trap of pleasing those who will try to get him pushed out if he fails with Kolb. Now don't get me wrong Vick adds something to that team but as far as I am concerned as is many others Vick will never get that Bowl. Starting both of them in a system that allows it would have been better.

tallaghtoutlaws

frostie500 wrote: »

I really dont know what to think about this anymore, in the summer I was excited by Kolb and the faith the team had in him. But after I rewatched Vick's second half against the Packer and the Lions game I have to say Vick looked terrific.

I have to admit he did but when you are fighting to hold down your spot or be the starter you will either raise your game or sh1t the bed and Vick raised his game and gave Philly fans a performance worthy of starting. Watch what happens when Vick has bad performances. Feel Bad for Kolb and Vick in fact as Philly will show either of them any mercy if they fail.

Peyton Manning

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Feel Bad for Kolb and Vick in fact as Philly will show either of them any mercy if they fail.

I know what you're saying, but personally I could never feel bad for that scumbag. I hope absolutely everythat that could go wrong does go wrong for him.

Syferus

Archimedes wrote: »

I know what you're saying, but personally I could never feel bad for that scumbag. I hope absolutely everythat that could go wrong does go wrong for him.

I absolutely detest what he was involved in with a passion that few would understand, but your attitude is simliarly pathetic.

ReacherCreature

Dohnny Jepp wrote: »

Because Kolb has shown so much potential? It's one thing looking good at training, but another to be good in matches. Kolb aint ever been good in maches, so how can he be considered the future.

He's played just 13 times and started twice, you're being unfair. He hasn't a chance to show off what he's like fully. I say (when he's healthy) throw him in and get him experience. If going by what you say, Peyton Manning would be throwing balls in the Arena League by this stage instead of possessing HOF career.

People are being too harsh on Kolb.

Peyton Manning

Syferus wrote: »

I absolutely detest what he was involved in with a passion that few would understand, but your attitude is simliarly pathetic.

Tell you what, why don't you keep your opinion about my attitude to yourself and discuss the topic at hand.

Fact of the matter is, Vick was given a golden opportunity in the NFL. He was a poster boy, the highest paid amongst his peers, and he blew it doing something highly despicable for a few dollars more. Now I'm all for rehabilitation, so great, he served his time and was released. I have no problem with that, but it was an absolute joke for Goodell to reinstate him to the NFL. He let every owner, athlete and fan of the NFL down, and should not be allowed near a professional football field under the NFL umbrella again.

Syferus

Archimedes wrote: »

Tell you what, why don't you keep your opinion about my attitude to yourself and discuss the topic at hand.

I will if you will keep your feelings about wishing utter failure on someone to yourself and not veer hard left away from the topic.

Otherwise, sir, not a chance.

Peyton Manning

Syferus wrote: »

I will if you will. Otherwise, sir, not a chance.

Top notch reply there, son.

tallaghtoutlaws

Syferus wrote: »

I will if you will. Otherwise, sir, not a chance.

Out of curiosity where did archie give his opinion on your attitude?

Syferus

You guys.

davyjose

Archimedes wrote: »

Tell you what, why don't you keep your opinion about my attitude to yourself and discuss the topic at hand.

Fact of the matter is, Vick was given a golden opportunity in the NFL. He was a poster boy, the highest paid amongst his peers, and he blew it doing something highly despicable for a few dollars more. Now I'm all for rehabilitation, so great, he served his time and was released. I have no problem with that, but it was an absolute joke for Goodell to reinstate him to the NFL. He let every owner, athlete and fan of the NFL down, and should not be allowed near a professional football field under the NFL umbrella again.

The guy is entitled to earn a living though, Archie. If you're all for time served, and rehabilitation, then surely he should be given a shot?

I can see why you want the guy to fail and I totally get that, but he has every right to play in the NFL. Should the guy live on the streets?

tallaghtoutlaws

Syferus wrote: »

You guys.

Do you know Michael Vick personally that you would jump to his defense and attack Archie's opinion? I failing to see your reasoning behind your first post before the edit in fact both posts.

Michael Vick is the topic at hand here as is Kolb so if either QBs character comes into question it is on topic really. And lets not forget Vick chose to put himself in public eye so us questioning his character is fair game. After all he is a convicted criminal.

tallaghtoutlaws

davyjose wrote: »

The guy is entitled to earn a living though, Archie. If you're all for time served, and rehabilitation, then surely he should be given a shot?

I can see why you want the guy to fail and I totally get that, but he has every right to play in the NFL. Should the guy live on the streets?

I always sided on the NFL not giving him his job back. But it seems they don't care so there is nothing my personal feelings about him will do to change the NFL's decision. But I will touch on the bit in bold.

Plenty of jobs out there for an ex con especially a famous one. Had the NFL not given him his job back are you saying he would have been on the streets? I would say he would have done everything in his power to find another job after all he was in debt.

Peyton Manning

davyjose wrote: »

The guy is entitled to earn a living though, Archie. If you're all for time served, and rehabilitation, then surely he should be given a shot?

I can see why you want the guy to fail and I totally get that, but he has every right to play in the NFL. Should the guy live on the streets?

No by all means once he's served his time, his entitled to do what he wants. I do think however that NFL athletes, as role models to millions worldwide and as folks who are vastly over compensated for that role, they should have a bit more cop on. Discipline in the NFL is at an all time low, Goodell is nothing more than a glorified principle at the moment tbh, handing out detention. A swift one-striker and your out policy needs to be implemented for these guys who earn millions and millions, especially in cases as extreme as Vicks. He had his chance as a multi-million dollar role model, he blew it spectacularly. That should be that.

Syferus

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Do you know Michael Vick personally that you would jump to his defense and attack Archie's opinion? I failing to see your reasoning behind your first post before the edit in fact both posts.

Michael Vick is the topic at hand here as is Kolb so if either QBs character comes into question it is on topic really. And lets not forget Vick chose to put himself in public eye so us questioning his character is fair game. After all he is a convicted criminal.

I fail to see how calling any player a 'scumbag' and emotionally wanting them to fail 'utterly' enters into a discussion obstensibly about the competition between Kolb and Vick. He over stepped the bounds, and like it or not all I did was call him on it.

You asked me do I know Michael Vick personally; let's turn that around. Do you?

davyjose

ReacherCreature wrote: »

He's played just 13 times and started twice, you're being unfair. He hasn't a chance to show off what he's like fully. I say (when he's healthy) throw him in and get him experience. If going by what you say, Peyton Manning would be throwing balls in the Arena League by this stage instead of possessing HOF career.

People are being too harsh on Kolb.

That's not quite true... Manning, upon joining the Colts broke numerous Rookie records. It's a different situation though. Kolb has had a few years to learn under the tutelage of an elite NFL QB. And Kolb has joined a regular playoff contender, not the worst team in the league.

That means sh!t to Kolb, however, because he wasn't given a shot. Kolb is in a very similar situation to Rodgers 2 or 3 years ago, except Green bay didn't give Vick the starting gig 20 minutes into Rodgers career. And now 2 years later Rodgers is considered an elite QB. I don't know what the chances of Kolb being as good as Rodgers are (slim probably), but by all accounts, he had the capabilities to take a good franchise far.

Now they have a showreel at QB.

If I were an NFL level QB, the 32nd team on my list would be Philly (just behind Oakland).

tallaghtoutlaws

Syferus wrote: »

I fail to see how calling any player a 'scumbag' and emotionally wanting them to fail 'utterly' enters into a discussion obstensibly about the competition between Kolb and Vick. He over stepped the bounds, and like it or not all I did was call him on it.

Over stepped what bounds? The thread name is Kolb Vs Vick. This is a Discussion about two men who are in the public eye. Guys who are in the media and choose to be there. Vick has no one else to blame but himself for people forming bad opinions on him. Archie has a right to his opinion and who are you to attack his opinion.

You asked me do I know Michael Vick personally; let's turn that around. Do you?

WTF has this got to do with me Knowing Vick? I form my opinion of a man who was constantly in the media and whom I have watched in the NFL. I never attacked someones opinion in a way it comes off I am defending someone I know like you did. and never have I given an opinion of Vick that indicates knowing him. So feel free to come down of that high horse you seem to be sitting on.

Peyton Manning

Syferus wrote: »

I fail to see how calling any player a 'scumbag' and emotionally wanting them to fail 'utterly' enters into a discussion obstensibly about the competition between Kolb and Vick. He over stepped the bounds, and like it or not all I did was call him on it.

You asked me do I know Michael Vick personally; let's turn that around. Do you?

I over stepped the boundaries by wishing professional failure on a man who tortured dogs, made them fight each other to the death, and drowned them while taking bets on how long they would live for?

Glad you have your priorities in check. Can you not see why he is the most hated man in the NFL? Can you not see why many others like myself are of the hope that his career rots? Like I said, he had his chance and he blew it. I don't buy any of this second chance crap in the NFL. If you need a second chance to earn contracts worth dozens of millions, you're an absolute idiot and don't deserve it in the slightest.

davyjose

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

I always sided on the NFL not giving him his job back. But it seems they don't care so there is nothing my personal feelings about him will do to change the NFL's decision. But I will touch on the bit in bold.

Plenty of jobs out there for an ex con especially a famous one. Had the NFL not given him his job back are you saying he would have been on the streets? I would say he would have done everything in his power to find another job after all he was in debt.

In fairness, if one corporation shouldn't hire him, why should any other?

If he's beneath the NFL, then you can be pretty damn sure, he's beneath a lot of other places.

The NFL doesn't hold a standard any higher than most other large organisations. OJ simpson is still in the fcuking hall of fame ffs!

tallaghtoutlaws

davyjose wrote: »

In fairness, if one corporation shouldn't hire him, why should any other?

Personally I believe the NFL shouldn't have taken him back for many of the reasons Archie stated above. The main reason is the Role Model and influence it will have on young players.

If he's beneath the NFL, then you can be pretty damn sure, he's beneath a lot of other places.

BS and we both know it. There are thousands of companies in the US not in the public eye or influencing young kids that hire ex cons. I have a problem with any company taking on ex cons where the role the work in they are role models to kids and have influence on youth.

The NFL doesn't hold a standard any higher than most other large organisations. OJ simpson is still in the fcuking hall of fame ffs!

Again see above. And OJ Simpson was retired when all of his nonsense happened. His HOF accolade is for his abilities on the field and nothing else. His personal life doesn't factor into the equation.

davyjose

Archimedes wrote: »

Glad you have your priorities in check. Can you not see why he is the most hated man in the NFL? Can you not see why many others like myself are of the hope that his career rots? Like I said, he had his chance and he blew it. I don't buy any of this second chance crap in the NFL. If you need a second chance to earn contracts worth dozens of millions, you're an absolute idiot and don't deserve it in the slightest.

Archimedes, nobody is disputing whether or not the man deserves another shot in the NFL. The guy has the ability to compete in the NFL, that's all that matters. I'm sorry, but if the US federal government decides to turn the guy back out into the public, then he has the right to work ... wherever that may be.

I COMPLETELY understand your desire to see the guy fail, and truth be told, it wouldn't exactly bring a tear to my eye either, but at the end of the day the decision to pick Vick comes down to the QB's abilities to lead the Eagles. Nothing else.

Syferus

Archimedes wrote: »

I over stepped the boundaries by wishing professional failure on a man who tortured dogs, made them fight each other to the death, and drowned them while taking bets on how long they would live for?

Glad you have your priorities in check. Can you not see why he is the most hated man in the NFL? Can you not see why many others like myself are of the hope that his career rots? Like I said, he had his chance and he blew it. I don't buy any of this second chance crap in the NFL. If you need a second chance to earn contracts worth dozens of millions, you're an absolute idiot and don't deserve it in the slightest.

The idea that someone cannot be redeemed or even allowed the chance to fail without the same spite and ill will that typified their original actions is a horrible one and one that would crumble the fabric of society if excercised.

I don't even like Vick and I don't like what he did but I also don't profess to understand the intricacies of his value as a human being today, now, after paying his legal due to society. He has a long way to go to pay his moral dues, but the idea that someone would wish failure on someone else means they are guilty of hatred in their own way and nothing good ever will come from hatred.