Sept 10 World Suicide Prevention Day

demonspawn

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Do you not realise that this is exactly what you are doing? You feel that suicide is a non issue and are basically doing exactly what you are accusing others of doing? The basic inference that it's a purely moralistic argument has nothing to do with this at all, it's not a moralistic debate. No one has stated that suicide is right or wrong, no one has judged in either direction the victims thereof, people are simply saying that suicide is an issue, plenty of people entertain suicidal thoughts that need help.

Kind of ironic that i have to do this, but that's a basic genetic fallacy at it's most predominant.

I'm not advocating or advertising a World Suicide Day on a public forum. Suicide is a massive issue to many people and should be treated as such. The fact that there is such a thing as a World Suicide Prevention Day is proof enough that so many people think it's wrong. It completely disregards suicide as a viable alternative to a lifetime of suffering. And all of this one day before the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks. Several motives are at work here.

Your username is incredibly ironic by the way.

Novella

demonspawn wrote: »

I'm not advocating or advertising a World Suicide Day on a public forum. Suicide is a massive issue to many people and should be treated as such. The fact that there is such a thing as a World Suicide Prevention Day is proof enough that so many people think it's wrong. And all of this one day before the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks. Several motives are at work here.

Your username is incredibly ironic by the way.

I get where you are coming from with some of your posts, I really do. I understand that some suicidal people do not see a way out, and want their lives to be over. Some people have indeed endured huge suffering and no amount of talking may help them, no medication combinations etc. However, I still think it's beneficial to have a Suicide Prevention Day. It is rather important to make suicide less of a taboo. There are a lot of people out there who were once suicidal and now living fulfilling lives and perhaps if more awareness was risen, less people would turn to suicide and less people would allow themselves to get to that point... and that's gotta be good.

princess-lala

This shouldn't be about percentages and how many more males/females commit suicide. It should be about preventing it!

The government should be doing more about this imo! They just see statistics and say "well lets try sort this out" and nothing ever comes of it!

People commit suicide for all sorts of reasons, yes money is one but not always the case!

I have always and always will feel very strongly about the prevention of suicide! The only place I know of (and I'm open to correction) that really helps people trying/thinking of suicide is Pieta House in Lucan! I know there is the likes of aware and whatnot but alot of these places run on semi government funding along with fund raising!! They need so much more help!

Novella

I agree, I'd prefer it to be called Suicide Awareness Day too.

CDfm

OK Abigail - I get what you are saying and it is said if someone feels so desperate that that is their only choice.

demonspawn has mentioned reaching out and listening to his sister who was self harming and being there which made a difference and well done demonspawn. So DP you made a difference.

A determined person can take their own life but some people act on impulse too & events like unemployment or habits like alchohol or addictions can be a factor too.

I don't have an agenda here about any moral or religious issue. What I am saying is that World Suicide Prevention Day heightens awareness and that its not just professionals and governments that make a difference.

Logical Fallacy

demonspawn wrote: »

Your username is incredibly ironic by the way.

Hardly, but there is that genetic fallacy again.

I really couldn't be bothered continuing a discussion with someone who can't even debate the points.

I understand where you are coming from, i truly do, but having an issue with the day because it's the day before 9/11 is downright ludicrous, especially when the basis for your issues is that based purely in personal opinion and a kind of odd measure of the relevance of human suffering.

That's about all i have to say on the matter.

Novella

Yeah, for definite. Also, being close to someone who is suicidal isn't an easy place to be either, and often that isn't recognised at all. I've never had anyone close to me commit suicide or attempt it, touch wood, but I know that generally after a suicide attempt, all the attention is focused on that person. It's so difficult to be close to that person though, always wondering if they'll do it again, if you're gonna say the wrong thing, the what if's... Those people need help and support too.

seensensee

CDfm wrote: »

Suicide Ireland have an on-line memorial section and if you want to put it in context of the type of people who commit suicide take a peek

http://www.suicideireland.com/view-memorials.html

Putting a human face to the term suicide makes all the difference... I've learned more through five minutes on suicideireland than five years of reading newspapers. I did'nt realise there no age limit. Sadness....:(

CDfm

seensensee wrote: »

Putting a human face to the term suicide makes all the difference... I've learned more through five minutes on suicideireland than five years of reading newspapers. I did'nt realise there no age limit. Sadness....:(

Yup - its quite enlightening isn't it.

demonspawn

CDfm wrote: »

demonspawn has mentioned reaching out and listening to his sister who was self harming and being there which made a difference and well done demonspawn. So DP you made a difference.

I didn't make a difference. My sister was put into care and pumped full of lithium and god knows what else. After they decided she wasn't a harm to herself they let her go. She just needed to know that someone would actually care if she was gone.

When I was 17, a friend of mine laid himself down on the railroad tracks in Malahide and that was that. Nobody had the slightest clue he was thinking of suicide. He was 21 or 22. I won't go into the details, but you can't make a difference for someone who has made up their mind that they're ready to go. They will never give you the opportunity. The Church refused to let him be buried beside his family members.

KyussBishop

demonspawn wrote: »

For one, you have no idea why the vast majority of people commit suicide so don't start making baseless assumptions.

I have been diagnosed with clinical depression because of events in my childhood and subsequent events in my early adulthood. I was prescribed medication that made me feel like a zombie so I chose to stop taking it and try to deal with my issues. Some people have issues that will never be resolved, or they don't see the point of living life as a medicated zombie, and so they decide that the best option is suicide.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Medication is rarely the only solution to those problems, and it's arguable that the pain can still be relieved and the suicide be preventable through other methods of treatment.

Yes, we can't objectively know the precise reasons why a lot of people commit suicide, but I'd imagine it's very well documented that it comes down to mental illness (albeit it's probably a wider range of mental illness, not solely clinical depression); that is common knowledge, not a baseless assumption:

Mental disorders are frequently present at the time of suicide with estimates from 87% to 98%.

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Suicide#Mental_illness


In my opinion, if (in a purely objective way) people have no other avenue of treatment, and it is in no doubt that they will be in untreatable pain for their remaining time, assisted suicide should (legally) be an option for them.

However, a person stuck in the depths of depression, will often see no way out and will think things will never improve, when things can; so someone in that position will nearly always not be able to make a logical decision on the issue.


Suicide is a very significant societal problem around the entire world, with its core problem centralized around mental health issues, which leads to it being a very taboo subject as in many places around the world mental illness is not taken as seriously as it should be (both societally and within government, i.e. medical funding).

It is also something still in need of extensive research, as for all the more well known mental illnesses like depression and anxiety, there at the very least dozens of other issues which are not well researched enough to be understood or treated (not to mention the unending need to find better treatments for the well known illnesses).

As a result, having a day dedicated to spreading awareness about this issue is very important for trying to break down these taboo's, and for building up enough momentum/societal-pressure to bring about some positive change regarding the issue.
At the moment, it doesn't get nearly as much attention as it deserves; particularly here in Ireland, with our hideously underfunded and generally inadequate mental health service.

CDfm

demonspawn wrote: »

I didn't make a difference. My sister was put into care and pumped full of lithium and god knows what else. After they decided she wasn't a harm to herself they let her go. She just needed to know that someone would actually care if she was gone.

When I was 17, a friend of mine laid himself down on the railroad tracks in Malahide and that was that. Nobody had the slightest clue he was thinking of suicide. He was 21 or 22. I won't go into the details, but you can't make a difference for someone who has made up their mind that they're ready to go. They will never give you the opportunity. The Church refused to let him be buried beside his family members.

Lighten up DP and I don't really want to comment on individual issues but I believe in life and there is nothing I can do about churches or health authorities.

Our experiences are different and our beliefs on it differ somewhat and I am not as cynical as you are.

I like to believe that we all in our own small way can make a bit of a difference even here in the boards community.

princess-lala

We could all start quoting our individual cases and what has happened here but thats not what this thread was started for!

Something has to be done about the amount of suicide in our country!! Before more families have to go through the same heartbreak!

princess-lala

Abigayle wrote: »

Are you for real????

Its these 'individual' cases that you are dismissing that is the very point of the 'prevention day' in the first place. It is by using the experience of family and friends, and those who managed to survive their attempts and go on to share their experiences with others.



I think it is you that is missing the point of the thread. Experience can be valuable information.

Yes experience is very valuable information but there still isn't enough awareness about suicide in this country!

Alot of people who attempt aren't properly cared for after their attempt! Talked through the whys and whatnot! Alot of those people just carry on as nothing has happened! They need help and while there still isn't enough suicide awareness out there!

There is still very much a taboo about suicide and that needs fixing! People need to understand suicide more! I know after someone commits suicide there are no answers nor will there ever be!

What I meant by quoting our individual cases was we all know of or know someone who has either succeeded or tried to commit suicide but we need to find a way that this can stop!

Novella

princess-lala wrote: »

Alot of people who attempt aren't properly cared for after their attempt! Talked through the whys and whatnot! Alot of those people just carry on as nothing has happened! They need help and while there still isn't enough suicide awareness out there!

Sorry for just picking this bit of your post, but in fairness, often it's a case of a person attempting suicide and then rejecting all and any help offered afterwards. No hospital can force treatment on a person who does not want it.

princess-lala

Novella wrote: »

Sorry for just picking this bit of your post, but in fairness, often it's a case of a person attempting suicide and then rejecting all and any help offered afterwards. No hospital can force treatment on a person who does not want it.

Oh God I know treatment can't be forced upon someone! But what about the people who want treatment and are put on waiting lists? We should be able to have treatment readily available should we need it!

Novella

princess-lala wrote: »

Oh God I know treatment can't be forced upon someone! But what about the people who want treatment and are put on waiting lists? We should be able to have treatment readily available should we need it!

If a case is considered urgent, waiting lists don't apply and a patient can skip and see a psychiatrist or whatever on the public system. Also, waiting lists are due to demand. It's just not really feasible to argue that waiting lists are the problem because they only exist because so many people need help and it'd be too simple of a solution to suggest getting rid of them. Like, how?!

I mean, I'm not saying the health service is brilliant in this country, of course it is flawed but ime, most doctors, consultants, psychiatrists etc., really are doing the best that they can.

It's important to raise awareness of other services. You mentioned Pieta House yourself - great place. I think it'd be good to see more funding for this kind of service.

princess-lala

Novella wrote: »

It's important to raise awareness of other services. You mentioned Pieta House yourself - great place. I think it'd be good to see more funding for this kind of service.

We have done alot of funding over the last 2 years for Pieta house!

Waiting lists do apply even in urgent cases, I'm not blaming any doctors and whatnot but the health service needs a kick in the ass and nobody should be left waiting even if it isn't overly urgent!

Nobody knows what goes on in another persons mind so these people could go from being non urgent to majorly urgent in a matter of days!

Novella

princess-lala wrote: »

We have done alot of funding over the last 2 years for Pieta house!

Waiting lists do apply even in urgent cases, I'm not blaming any doctors and whatnot but the health service needs a kick in the ass and nobody should be left waiting even if it isn't overly urgent!

Nobody knows what goes on in another persons mind so these people could go from being non urgent to majorly urgent in a matter of days!

But how would it be possible for no one to ever have to wait? How would that actually work?

Exactly. Nobody knows. That's what makes treating all kinds of mental illness so difficult.

Mrmoe

I 100% agree with what you say here in that it is ultimately up to the individual whether they seek help or support. However, why are you so against preventative measures? And by that I mean looking at the fundamental causes of why people suffer. If we do not even make an attempt to tackle these then suicide will always be at the same level it is now. It's not a case of either or but looking at both.

metrovelvet

Novella wrote: »

Sorry for just picking this bit of your post, but in fairness, often it's a case of a person attempting suicide and then rejecting all and any help offered afterwards. No hospital can force treatment on a person who does not want it.

Yes they can. They can force you to go to hospital if you are a danger to yourself or they can section you.

Novella

metrovelvet wrote: »

Yes they can. They can force you to go to hospital if you are a danger to yourself or they can section you.

Yeah. But it's really easy to say you're not a danger to yourself and discharge yourself.

Novella

Seriously Abi, major respect for being so open.

metrovelvet

I think something should be done for the people who survive it and for those who have been left to deal with the huge messes people who kill themselves leave behind.

They get NO attention or funding from anyone.

CDfm

Health Professionals and emergency services have one goal and that is to keep you alive.The days of sectioning people are largely over but it can still happen. People also voluntarily check themselves in if they feel there is something wrong.

I like the way Abigayle focused on awareness and demonspawn who I dont agree with articulated it from a quality of life perspective but he tells it like it is for him. A hard thing to do.

The words "mental health" are frightening to most people and the word "suicide" is enough to cause most people to run. The mention of cannabis and alcohol -the abuse of which can cause the problem is much cooler indeed.

The one thing that always worries me is that people always want the government or someone else to do it and never think that they themselves have a responsibility themselves.

sam34

because of my job, and other more personal reasons, i'm staying out of this discussion by and large.

however, i just want to correct one or two inaccurate statements

metrovelvet wrote: »

Yes they can. They can force you to go to hospital if you are a danger to yourself or they can section you.

Novella wrote: »

Yeah. But it's really easy to say you're not a danger to yourself and discharge yourself.

if you have been sectioned/certified, you cannot discharge yourself. you can only be discharged by a consultant psychiatrist or a mental health tribunal.

and it's not just a matter of saying you're not a danger to yourself, there would have to be objective evidence of an improvement in mental state before discharge would be even considered.

CDfm wrote: »

The days of sectioning people are largely over but it can still happen.

there are over 2000 people sectioned every year in this country, so its not out of vogue just yet. obviously its not first line treatment and other avenues are tried first, but psychiatrists dont shy away from it either.

Novella

Tbph, I've had a lot of dealings with mental health services in Ireland. I have been hospitalised a number of times due to self injury and attempts at suicide. Sure, I've been told I'll be admitted to the psych ward etc., but each and every time I was adamant that no one understood me, that I was doing the right thing, that no one could help me. I am sure you do believe that it's not easy to walk out of a hospital when you are a danger to yourself, but in my experience, it is. It's ridiculously simple.

sam34

Novella wrote: »

Tbph, I've had a lot of dealings with mental health services in Ireland. I have been hospitalised a number of times due to self injury and attempts at suicide. Sure, I've been told I'll be admitted to the psych ward etc., but each and every time I was adamant that no one understood me, that I was doing the right thing, that no one could help me. I am sure you do believe that it's not easy to walk out of a hospital when you are a danger to yourself, but in my experience, it is. It's ridiculously simple.

i cant comment on your personal experience

i know that if it was my professional opinion that someone was a serious risk to themselves because of mental illness, i would not let them out of hospital, and one of the functions of the mental health act is to prevent someone in that condition from leaving.

speedboatchase

I will do my part tomorrow by not killing myself

sam34

i really cant comment on people's personal experiences, as i'm sure you'll understand

in terms of where the line is drawn - it isnt drawn, as such

there is no 'one thing that will definitely get you certified', if you get my meaning

it depends on a lot of factors, and each case is taken on its own merits

i dont mean to be deliberately vague, or unhelpful, but thats the way it is.

decisions are made based on current presentation, past history, etc

now, i'm off for the night and am unlikely to be checking in here before next monday, so wont be able to answer any more q's!