CRP on Rosslare Rail Line

save the rail

Judgement Day wrote: »

Okay, I will take your word that Joe Ryan is the only political involvement in the campaign - for now. However, 'as an adult', I am telling you that I have no intention of helping, in anyway, with your campaign as long as Mark Gleeson is involved - and I'm not alone in that. Talk to some of his former buddies from Platform 11/RUI if you want more information about who you have on board. Of course you probably value his 'expertise' more anyway - so off you go.

you seem to have an issue with political involvment, why dont you just come straight out with it.

Mark has provided valuable information and has been an asset to the campaign so whatever rows he had with platform11 guys is irrelevant to me or the other members.

save the rail

topnotch wrote: »

what has crp achieved on the rosslare-gorey section

We are only a few weeks into it HOWEVER we have been in contact with IR in regards to later trains ex Dublin and trains meeting the ferries. Also the catering trolley has been discussed. These issues will take time to sort and we are meeting with IR again next month to see what decisions have been made on the requests we put in. We also discussed the car parking issue in wexford and have requested that a poster be displayed to inform passengers that there is FREE parking in the old cinema carpark for train users.

We have also been in contact with BE in relation to meeting trains and ferries too.
We also discussed with Stena Line about the possibility of slight change to timetables to work with IR in having the trains and ferries meet.

topnotch

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!:D
You must be wrecked all that hot air talking and achieving nothing.

save the rail

topnotch wrote: »

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!:D
You must be wrecked all that hot air talking and achieving nothing.

We have achieved more than you.......................
maybe it wont come to anything but at least we are fighting for something we believe in and not just mouthing at people for trying

CIE

topnotch wrote: »

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!:D
You must be wrecked all that hot air talking and achieving nothing

Can't operate a rail line that IE wants to hold onto stubbornly for fear of being proven wrong.

freight would lose more money than passenger would

Em, what? Rail freight makes money. Only with state control and interference does it "lose" money.

DDigital

wild handlin wrote: »

there was plenty of posters on the WRC thread who mooted the WRC as being a failure from day 1, yet all have gone VERY quiet since the opening; especially when the initial figures were released which showed more of a demand for the line than was first expected.....

Have they gone quiet? Seems the thread is still ticking along with both sides of the argument expressing themselves. A few of them have probably been banned as well. Is the WRC a failure? Is it a success? All I know is that the corresponding road is getting a hell of a lot better and a new express bus is running if Im not mistaken? I suppose the success of the WRC really depends on a particular definition of success benchmarked against operating costs, social value blah blah blah....

Now as regards the Wexford railway scenario, I know little about the politics, but I see no harm in questions being asked of it and opinions expressed, even if they are negative. Thats life and it takes many opinions to keep the world developing. We can't all think the same. Ive travelled on the Dublin - Rosslare rail route and its appalling. Perhaps the worst intercity route in the country. If you have experience of other routes then you could be forgiven for thinking that CIEs malaise towards the railway has gone into overdrive on this particular line. Will this campaign help improve it? I don't know. But this is CIE we are talking about after all. I read on a facebook page recently a story about why is barry kenny so well known to the public. That says a lot really when you think about it. They don't seem to be the easiest of semi states to do business with. Senator Shane Ross appears to think they are rotten to the core. If they are, would you trust them to be upfront and honest in their dealings with campaign groups?

cbl593h

topnotch wrote: »

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!:D
You must be wrecked all that hot air talking and achieving nothing.

And when all your "can't do" IÉ attitude comes back on you and bites you on the hole(or the big nose!) and you find yourself on the dole what will you do then???? Look for a tea selling job from Rail Gormless or a gate opening job from save the Rail????

dermo88

There is clearly faction fighting going on which is blocking some of us from seeing the macronomics of the whole rail transport issue. Some cannot see the wood for the trees. Mark Gleeson, P11, RUI, who cares who they are as long as they are capable of getting the results.

Lets consider issues such as the disposal of the Mark 3's, and conclude that Iarnrod Eireann were "damned if they did, and damned if they did'nt" as regards the procurement of the new railcar fleet.

In my eyes, the days of the locomotive hauled heavy express passenger train in Ireland are as dead as the dodo. This has been the way on similar networks in the European Union and elsewhere for the past two decades. The old philosophy was that the locomotives worked passengers in the daytime, freight at night, and it worked quite well while there were enough freight traffic flows in Ireland at the time relevant to the economic conditions. That no longer is the case.

The Mark 4 sets were procured to make use of relatively new 201 Class locomotives. They were only 12 years old when these were introduced. Considering the use of some on the Enterprise, and the option to purchase more Mark 4 stock for use on Galway/Limerick/Tralee services (the digital route map in the coaches shows this intention), it made some operational sense at the time. Now.....it makes less sense. The railcars bring a standard branding for the first time ever across the radial Intercity network, rather than a hotchpotch from the Gold standard of the Mark 3 fleet, to the Bronze of Cravens, to the absolute rot that were the Mark 2d's in their final years.

With track upgrading to UIC60 track, these trains will acquit themselves in time, but it will need investment, which is not likely in the current scenario.

With crisis comes opportunity. This economic crisis will lead to cutbacks and privatisation. The Dublin to Rosslare service is an opportunity to prove that there are options besides CIE and Iarnrod Eireann. It is an opportunity to prove that they have engaged in closure by stealth and Salami tactics. It is an opportunity for a friendly workforce (the staff on the route are the friendliest of any Irish Rail service in my experience) to go and prove that they can make a success.

On a somewhat "pie in the sky" angle - it is also an opportunity for a few nice Purple and Gold railcars to be branded with a local identity that the people of Wicklow and Wexford can have as their own, rather than being treated as an inconvenient outpost by their "colonial" masters in Kingsbridge (Heuston). This seems to have been the case since 1925. They only wanted to use the line as a photo opportunity for advertisements or nice pictures in their annual report, but when it came to providing a viable service, with speeds above 65kph (average), they never wanted to and never will. The actual speed is 55kph overall average at the time of writing (I am converting to metric measures). It can be around 10kph faster. The likely problem is that Iarnrod Eireann, controlling the DART system could sabotage the private operator by pathing a DART on the Bray to Connolly section and ensure failure.

This is why the CRP is required. The Department of Transport and Finance should (metaphorically) point a gun at the Unions and Management of CIE, and state "well, if these are going to provide a faster, cheaper and better service for less, then we will let them". If the staff are sharing profits and bonuses, then they will be motivated. If the staff are happy, the customers will be happy. There will be more customers, and it could be the start of the real revolution in transport in Ireland. Who can deny that this is required?

This occured in Sweden in the 1990's, Australia did it also, under the cloud of a deep recession. Britain, notably did. We could take the best of these models and adapt it to our conditions under best International practice. Its the future, and it should be embraced openly.

corktina

CIE wrote: »

Rail freight makes money. Only with state control and interference does it "lose" money.

WHAT freight? The only way freight could possibly make money is with bulk hauls and lots of them. There is no prospect of anything approaching a viable flow of freight in this area. Rail simply does not go from and to where a customer might want a service ...transhipping to a truck at one or most likely both ends of the journey would be needed and ,with the short hauls in this country, that just cannot be vaible.

What rail does best is Inter City and Commuter but you need to have a lot of it to make even that viable and there just isnt the traffic potential available on the Rosslare line to do it.

cbl593h

corktina wrote: »

WHAT freight? The only way freight could possibly make money is with bulk hauls and lots of them. There is no prospect of anything approaching a viable flow of freight in this area. Rail simply does not go from and to where a customer might want a service ...transhipping to a truck at one or most likely both ends of the journey would be needed and ,with the short hauls in this country, that just cannot be vaible.

What rail does best is Inter City and Commuter but you need to have a lot of it to make even that viable and there just isnt the traffic potential available on the Rosslare line to do it.

Count the lorries going on and off the ferries at Rosslare???

corktina

cbl593h wrote: »

Count the lorries going on and off the ferries at Rosslare???

how will it be more cost effective to transship that freight to a train? and can trains go to everywhere those trucks are heading?

foggy_lad

cbl593h wrote: »

Count the lorries going on and off the ferries at Rosslare???

all going to different towns and villages around the country(much of which is not served by rail!), so you advocate loading all those containers on a train to some central depot then unloading them all and putting them all onto different regional trains and then sending them to different regional freight centres where they are loaded onto trucks for another long journey to their destination!

have you never considered the extremely high cost of labuor to move one container from a ship to train then onto another train then onto a truck? it involves having several staff in stations at all hours often weaiting on delayed trains just so they can unload one or two containers onto a truck and these staff will of course be getting shift bonuses or exhorbitant overtime rates as well as mileage allowances!

there is also the extra time it takes as in most cases trucks are faster than freight trains in ireland and this is never going to change.

Victor

cbl593h wrote: »

And when all your "can't do" IÉ attitude comes back on you and bites you on the hole(or the big nose!) and you find yourself on the dole what will you do then???? Look for a tea selling job from Rail Gormless or a gate opening job from save the Rail????

A little decorum and politeness wouldn't go astray.

CIE

can trains go to everywhere those trucks are heading?

Thanks to current transport policy, the answer is no. Roads and rails do have to be built, after all. And the current government policy favours roads and stifles rail.

foggy_lad

CIE wrote: »

Thanks to current transport policy, the answer is no. Roads and rails do have to be built, after all. And the current government policy favours roads and stifles rail.

CIE has stifled rail almost out of existance in ireland not roads or governments but CIE and the Unions that make up irish rail and keep freight and passenger journeys prohibitively expensive!

and government policy has nothing to do with railways being rebuilt on old antiquated and obsolete allignments where any freight will require even more road freight to get it to its destination! trains(with a very frew exceptions) simply do not go into town and city centres where there might be demand for them and as they should!

corktina

CIE wrote: »

Thanks to current transport policy, the answer is no. Roads and rails do have to be built, after all. And the current government policy favours roads and stifles rail.

facts of life, trucks can go more or less anywhere via anywhere else. Rail cannot hope to serve every factory warehouse and shop in the country. Rail freight is out moded and uneconomic in Ireland evn if you can find a cargo!

CIE

and government policy has nothing to do with railways being rebuilt on old antiquated and obsolete allignments where any freight will require even more road freight to get it to its destination

Where does that happen in Ireland? and what's an "obsolete alignment", relative to what kind of other alignment? Even the most obsolete-seeming of alignments with a single track can be configured to carry way more freight than a four-lane motorway.

I think people need to understand railfreight better. It's meant to keep the "supertrucks" (HGVs) off the roads, not smaller local-delivery trucks that get their cargo either from railcars or other supertrucks. Businesses, agriculture, mining et al are the best equipped for rail freight. Do you expect supertrucks to deliver to the local shops? because that never happened even during rail's "heyday"; you didn't have all sorts of tramways on local roads with people getting their goods off a railcar in the road, but you had lorries (motorised or horse-drawn) picking up their goods at freight stations, just like they get their goods nowadays from distribution centres that the supertrucks delivered the goods to (whereas the same could be achieved by going to a railfreight station). Therefore, the only case of "more road freight" has to do with the HGVs alone.

save the rail

Another point that should be considered is we are SUPPOSED to be reducing CO2 emissions, by taking HGVs off the road and returning to frieght we could manage to reduce it significantly

foggy_lad

CIE wrote: »

Where does that happen in Ireland? and what's an "obsolete alignment", relative to what kind of other alignment? Even the most obsolete-seeming of alignments with a single track can be configured to carry way more freight than a four-lane motorway.

I think people need to understand railfreight better. It's meant to keep the "supertrucks" (HGVs) off the roads, not smaller local-delivery trucks that get their cargo either from railcars or other supertrucks. Businesses, agriculture, mining et al are the best equipped for rail freight. Do you expect supertrucks to deliver to the local shops? because that never happened even during rail's "heyday"; you didn't have all sorts of tramways on local roads with people getting their goods off a railcar in the road, but you had lorries (motorised or horse-drawn) picking up their goods at freight stations, just like they get their goods nowadays from distribution centres that the supertrucks delivered the goods to (whereas the same could be achieved by going to a railfreight station). Therefore, the only case of "more road freight" has to do with the HGVs alone.

erm ok so i live in carlow and build my factory out the kilkenny road a few miles and require a delivery of parts consisting of two containers a few times a week and they have to come by sea through rosslare, they get to the port and are loaded on a train which then goes to dublin and then back to carlow but there are no facilities for freight in carlow so they must go elsewhere and then get loaded on a truck which must be a HGV because they are 35ft-40ft containers... it is easier cheaper much faster and far more reliable to go from port to truck and direct to me than rely on anyone remotely connected to irish rail or CIE.

As for the positioning of stations and rail lines just look at the newlw refurbished western rail corridor phase1 which might have a few more passengers if it was laid out properly and there are several other stations that are connected to towns but are so far away they do not in reality serve those towns at all!

heuston station serves inchicore more than it does dublin city centre!
balina station is half a mile from the town
balinasloe station is 15minutes from the town
Carlow station is a half a mile from the town centre
charleville 1mile from the town
Cloughjordan 1.5 miles from Town Centre
even cork station is about 15-20minutes from the city centre
drogheda station is a mile from the town centre and dundalk the same.

this is the same storey for most stations they are too far from where people are located to be of any use.

steamengine

The penny might drop in years to come, at the moment the country is in motorway mode. Nothing wrong with that as we were about forty years behind the curve anyway. However, what may radically alter things in favour of rail will be the expected increase in oil prices as we move further into the 21st century.

Shifting freight by road costs 70% more in fuel costs than by rail and the average passenger train mpg is reckoned to be between 8 and 12 - same approximately as a bus. The savings are obvious. The clever bit about rail is that it is relatively frictionless compared with other forms of motorised transport, a point not lost on the early railway engineers.

CIE

foggy_lad wrote: »

erm ok so i live in carlow and build my factory out the kilkenny road a few miles and require a delivery of parts consisting of two containers a few times a week and they have to come by sea through rosslare, they get to the port and are loaded on a train which then goes to dublin and then back to carlow but there are no facilities for freight in carlow so they must go elsewhere and then get loaded on a truck which must be a HGV because they are 35ft-40ft containers... it is easier cheaper much faster and far more reliable to go from port to truck and direct to me than rely on anyone remotely connected to irish rail or CIE

...thanks to government manipulation of the transport network. Instead of building up the railways and encouraging freight sidings, they build the roads instead and shrink the railways, leaving you no viable choice of mode save the one they choose for you. Or alternately, they do not leave both to the private sector.

As for the positioning of stations and rail lines just look at the newl(y) refurbished western rail corridor phase1 which might have a few more passengers if it was laid out properly and there are several other stations that are connected to towns but are so far away they do not in reality serve those towns at all

You've just closed the Northern Line between Dublin and Belfast. Does Portmarnock station serve Portmarnock (a busy DART station two miles from the strand and business centre, never mind the residential centres of the town)? or Rush and Lusk station, which is in reality located in Effelstown? Those stations are much further away from their town centres than any station along the Galway-Limerick line; in fact, the stations on the line in the west in question are almost ideally situated. So what do you mean by "laid out properly", and what are you trying to compare them to? Do you want them to be put underground so they serve the exact centre of the towns?

heuston station serves inchicore more than it does dublin city centre!
bal(l)ina station is half a mile from the town
balinasloe station is 15 minutes from the town
Carlow station is a half a mile from the town centre
charleville 1 mile from the town
Cloughjordan 1.5 miles from Town Centre
even cork station is about 15-20 minutes from the city centre
drogheda station is a mile from the town centre and dundalk the same.

this is the same storey for most stations they are too far from where people are located to be of any use

Thought this thread was about intercity rail and not commuter rail?

Kent station 15-20 minutes from Cork city centre?? I could walk it in less than ten minutes. Driving is even a shorter time.

Cloughjordan's station is 1.5 kilometres from the town centre, not miles. (That's nine-tenths of a mile.) How close do you want the station to get to a town of about 780 people?

As for Ballinasloe, how curved do you want that line to get? It's one of the straightest railways around. The distance to Ballinasloe's town centre is similar to the distance between Portmarnock DART station and Portmarnock strand; but the station is surrounded by the residential areas by Derrymullan and Cleaghmore, so it's not like it's not near anybody.

As for Carlow station, what part of the town are you calling the city centre? A third of a mile is not a half mile. You won't have anyone joining in with calling for the station to be moved from St. Joseph's Road/Railway Road to between Pollerton Road and Staplestown Road. Nothing wrong with where the station is. Same with Ballina's railway terminus, or do you want DMUs idling right in the town centre waking people up?

Not to mention all the complaining about Heuston and Connolly. Broadstone is the closest station to Dublin's city centre physically, but why did IE not reopen that and instead build a new station at the Docklands, even further away from the city and not very close to the IFSC anyway? It'd be better to reopen Broadstone for the Maynooth line and (if they ever reopen the line) Navan corridor than build any Luas on there.

CIE

steamengine wrote: »

The penny might drop in years to come, at the moment the country is in motorway mode. Nothing wrong with that as we were about forty years behind the curve anyway. However, what may radically alter things in favour of rail will be the expected increase in oil prices as we move further into the 21st century

Yeah, but it's funny that arguments about "population density" apply to rail only and not road. The alignments for the motorways take up far more space per volume of people and goods moved, for far slower overall average speeds (unless speeding along illegally) and far higher maintenance costs overall.

Shifting freight by road costs 70% more in fuel costs than by rail and the average passenger train mpg is reckoned to be between 8 and 12 - same approximately as a bus. The savings are obvious. The clever bit about rail is that it is relatively frictionless compared with other forms of motorised transport, a point not lost on the early railway engineers.

The bit about less friction needed for railways raises the additional costs of rubber tyres, which also require crude oil in their manufacture. It takes about half a barrel of oil to make a lorry tyre, and your average HGV has about sixteen to eighteen of those depending on configuration. There's also the bit about more moving parts, which contributes to heat inefficiencies and even economies of scale.

corktina

steamengine wrote: »

The penny might drop in years to come, at the moment the country is in motorway mode. Nothing wrong with that as we were about forty years behind the curve anyway. However, what may radically alter things in favour of rail will be the expected increase in oil prices as we move further into the 21st century.

Shifting freight by road costs 70% more in fuel costs than by rail and the average passenger train mpg is reckoned to be between 8 and 12 - same approximately as a bus. The savings are obvious. The clever bit about rail is that it is relatively frictionless compared with other forms of motorised transport, a point not lost on the early railway engineers.

Im sorry but thats nonsense. For the same journey a train may be cheaper (doubtful as your figures look), but the point is that isnt real in that very few consignents are destined for a rail depot and a truck will be needed probably both ends of (WHAT IN IRELAND IS A VERY SHORT) journey with extra fuel and transhipping costs.

steamengine

corktina wrote: »

Im sorry but thats nonsense. For the same journey a train may be cheaper (doubtful as your figures look), but the point is that isnt real in that very few consignents are destined for a rail depot and a truck will be needed probably both ends of (WHAT IN IRELAND IS A VERY SHORT) journey with extra fuel and transhipping costs.

Which part is nonsense ? The fact is that motor road vehicles of all types waste fuel by continuously deforming tyres. Tyres present flat surface contact with the road, whereas a rail wheel is almost point contact. Now, consider a train load of ore from Navan mines, running on basically a frictionless surface and just imagine shifting that lot by road.

Anyway the next evolutionary phase in rail here should involve electrification of all Inter-City lines for starters, which would further reduce fuel costs, especially if nuclear power is utilised to produce the electrical power. Wind energy may also have its part to play. Sorry if some people choke on their cornflakes over this but that is what is happening already in some of the other European countries next to us.

topnotch

There's no point in electrification unless line speeds are dramatically increased above 125mph at least. I would think the cost involved would not be recoverable in a reasonable time frame.
Hybrid type locomotives or railcars which encorporated some form of battery technology would seem to be more practical.

foggy_lad

corktina wrote: »

Im sorry but thats nonsense. For the same journey a train may be cheaper (doubtful as your figures look), but the point is that isnt real in that very few consignents are destined for a rail depot and a truck will be needed probably both ends of (WHAT IN IRELAND IS A VERY SHORT) journey with extra fuel and transhipping costs.

and it is the huge cost of moving the goods from a truck onto a train at the start and then from a train back onto another truck at destination thathas welded the freight coffin lid closed in ireland. years ago all that moving from ship to rail was done by dock workers and labourers on a few shillings a week but people need real wages these days.

steamengine

topnotch wrote: »

There's no point in electrification unless line speeds are dramatically increased above 125mph at least. I would think the cost involved would not be recoverable in a reasonable time frame.
Hybrid type locomotives or railcars which encorporated some form of battery technology would seem to be more practical.

The speed issue could be resolved simultaneously with electrification, and obviously would be part of any envisaged revamp of the railway system, requiring massive investment. With regard to recovering costs - how does that work out with motorways ? I would imagine with rail the question and answer is the same. These infrastructural projects are put in place to facilitate economic progress and costs are recovered indirectly, if at all.

Hybrid and battery technology could have its place, but it would be nice to see it proven first. At least overhead electrification is already in place here with the Dart, so just extend.

CIE

topnotch wrote: »

There's no point in electrification unless line speeds are dramatically increased above 125mph at least

So DART has to travel above 125 mph? How about railfreight? How about Luas?

What would wreck the advantage of electrification on most main lines is the orgy of DMU purchases that IE has engaged in recently, of course.

I would think the cost involved would not be recoverable in a reasonable time frame

Costs of electrification are recovered with higher volumes of traffic rather than faster traffic, although the advantage of faster traffic becomes inherent thanks to being able to deploy such faster machines onto the infrastructure once in place. The northeastern end of the Dublin-Cork line, of course, hosts the quite voluminous commuter traffic between Dublin and Kildare. (What's left of the line through Naas into Tullow?)

Hybrid type locomotives or railcars which encorporated some form of battery technology would seem to be more practical

Has it been proven practical, first? Electrification is well proven, and is well over a century old. Hybrid and/or battery engines are not commonplace; so far, their only applications are as shunters in rail yards, not as high-speed road engines.

As for battery EMUs, the GSR had the Drumm battery cars, which I presume the railway would have preferred to convert to running from an electrification system if it had the will to build. (It was like pulling teeth to the GSR to even build the 800 class steam engines.)

topnotch

CIE wrote: »

So DART has to travel above 125 mph? How about railfreight? How about Luas?

steamengine was talking about electrifying the intercity network.

CIE wrote: »

What would wreck the advantage of electrification on most main lines is the orgy of DMU purchases that IE has engaged in recently, of course.Costs of electrification are recovered with higher volumes of traffic rather than faster traffic, although the advantage of faster traffic becomes inherent thanks to being able to deploy such faster machines onto the infrastructure once in place. The northeastern end of the Dublin-Cork line, of course, hosts the quite voluminous commuter traffic between Dublin and Kildare. (What's left of the line through Naas into Tullow?)Has it been proven practical, first? Electrification is well proven, and is well over a century old. Hybrid and/or battery engines are not commonplace; so far, their only applications are as shunters in rail yards, not as high-speed road engines.

There is not much point in electrifying the network if journey times are not reduced dramatically given the expense. Shorter journey times are the main way to increase passenger numbers when competing with a modern motorway network. You need the higher speed to get the higher volume.

corktina

steamengine wrote: »

Which part is nonsense ? The fact is that motor road vehicles of all types waste fuel by continuously deforming tyres. Tyres present flat surface contact with the road, whereas a rail wheel is almost point contact. Now, consider a train load of ore from Navan mines, running on basically a frictionless surface and just imagine shifting that lot by road.

Anyway the next evolutionary phase in rail here should involve electrification of all Inter-City lines for starters, which would further reduce fuel costs, especially if nuclear power is utilised to produce the electrical power. Wind energy may also have its part to play. Sorry if some people choke on their cornflakes over this but that is what is happening already in some of the other European countries next to us.

what about all the railcars left idling all night? that doesnt waste fuel?

Anyway we are discussing the Rosslare line...there is no potential freight on that line (or most other lines)that could be more efficently and quicker moved by rail. Rail can only hope to compete with long distance bulk hauls..you know, factory to port or visa versa and its just a fact of living on a small island that every factory has a port within a very short distance.

Wind energy? well Ireland needs its tourism and wind generators on the hilltops ruins the scale and majesty of the scenery.

Navan ores...how many tonnes per train does that shift? Lets see some figures