Would anyone want to really go to heaven?

KeithAFC

As an agnostic, im on the fence with religion to a degree but would anyone seriously want to go to heaven and how long would you be in heaven for. Would you want to sit in heaven with god all 'day' and just talk to him?

Its like when they say about burning in hell for thousands of years, i mean just how long can you burn for. The concept of hell and heaven, both ideas seem to like a complete nightmare and not places you would want to go to after death.

What would be the point of them? Sit around doing nothing forever?

Blikes

I don't think it's quite 'sitting around' as we know it here, but i get your point.

Also, Hell isn't a place of fire and brimstone, it's apparently, a complete separation from God.

Darlughda

Well, I'm thinking heaven is a place of bliss.

In a way what heroin addicts talk about when they need a fix. I reckon it is a some kind of sublime feeling of all being well with you and the world and there is no need to change it.

antiskeptic

KeithAFC wrote: »

As an agnostic, im on the fence with religion to a degree but would anyone seriously want to go to heaven and how long would you be in heaven for. Would you want to sit in heaven with god all 'day' and just talk to him?

Its like when they say about burning in hell for thousands of years, i mean just how long can you burn for. The concept of hell and heaven, both ideas seem to like a complete nightmare and not places you would want to go to after death.

What would be the point of them? Sit around doing nothing forever?

Your 'agnosticism' would appear to be of the self-inflicted variety - in the sense of your not having taken the time to carry out even a cursory inspection of the terrain.

MagicMarker

If there is a heaven then I hope it's something like the holodeck.

candy-gal1

Blikes wrote: »

I don't think it's quite 'sitting around' as we know it here, but i get your point.

Also, Hell isn't a place of fire and brimstone, it's apparently, a complete separation from God.


I never fully get this statement tbh, so if thats the case shouldnt this be hell?

Waking-Dreams

No, this isn't hell, as some believers would tell you, because some think god talks directly to them, communicates with them (in "mysterious ways") and watches over them. Replace the word god with aliens, dead relatives, angels, etc. All are as probable as the other.

It's wishful human thinking, a bit like when we reminisce over a beloved relative who is dead and imagine that they are possibly watching over us, due to our emotional connection to them when they were alive.

Max Power1

Heaven, as a concept, has never been defined to me by anyone afflicted by religious belief, in anything other than religious wishy-washy mumbo jumbo.

The most prevalent response from christian theists when questioned is "heaven is a place that you see god".

.....

and that is your eternity! Frankly better off avoided IMO.

Max Power1

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

No, this isn't hell, as some believers would tell you, because some think god talks directly to them, communicates with them (in "mysterious ways") and watches over them. Replace the word god with aliens, dead relatives, angels, etc. All are as probable as the other.

It's wishful human thinking, a bit like when we reminisce over a beloved relative was is dead and imagine that they are possibly watching over us, due to our emotional connection to them when they were alive.

+1

Its this reason, more than any other, that religion as a concept is still around.

People are more receptive to comforting falsehoods that tell them a nice warm lie, than they are to the cold hard truth.

checkyabadself

No one can say that they want to go to heaven. All they can admit, is that they don't want to die and if they must, which they inevitably will, a place called heaven fills the void of uncertainty and allows them solace in this life. Some people are uncapable of "not knowing", despite claiming to have "great faith".

When I die, I'm assuming that my life will end and my consciousness with it. This may not be the case, and there might possibly be an afterlife, but until that day, I'm not going to live this life pretending to know something I couldn't possibly know.

Pushtrak

I don't need to believe in any life after this one. It's probably the most asshole thing about me, but I kinda would like there to be something of an intermission just after dying where believers are in a state at which they can be honest and say just how much they believed/didn't believe/doubted/felt like a gullible fool or whatever.

In other words, some justification for the "Who needs evidence?" school of (un)thought in an environment where they might as well just talk reality.

candy-gal1

Max Power1 wrote: »

Heaven, as a concept, has never been defined to me by anyone afflicted by religious belief, in anything other than religious wishy-washy mumbo jumbo.

The most prevalent response from christian theists when questioned is "heaven is a place that you see god".

.....

and that is your eternity! Frankly better off avoided IMO.

And by that I can see how easy it is to make up to suit, the whole religon thing. "seeing God" can mean a lot of things tbh same as "Hell".

Waking-Dreams

Where were you all before you were born?

We know the universe has existed for billions of years but most of us didn't experience much of anything up until a few decades ago when we opened our human eyes.

That's what I imagine await us, and to be honest, I was fine with being nothing for the first few billion or so years, so I think I'll be grand to return to dreamless sleep once again.

Max Power1

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

Where were you all before you were born?

We know the universe has existed for billions of years but most of us didn't experience much of anything up until a few decades ago when we opened our human eyes.

That's what I imagine await us, and to be honest, I was fine with being nothing for the first few billion or so years, so I think I'll be grand to return to dreamless sleep once again.

We didnt exist!

Which is why I have no problem accepting my return to said state of decaying nothingness after my time ends.

seamus

Personally I would have to say that the concept of heaven is a lot less appealing than simply staying on earth.

I posed a question on the Christianity forum before, and the overall idea was that you "become one" with God. As opposed to it being a place where everyone is running around having their own fun, you become part of one uber-consciousness, where you gain a full understanding of the universe and live out eternity in this "bliss".

Sounds like hell to me - one consciousness, who knows *everything*, doing nothing by itself for eternity. How boring would that be? Of course a Christian will tell you that this consciousness transcends boredom. But not bliss oddly, it seems that when you know everything you can pick and choose what emotions you feel.

I would personally prefer to stay here for eternity and spend my time actually working out how the universe works. At least that would give me something to do for all that time.

legspin

If I was guaranteed 72 virgins, probably. Mind you, I would much prefer 3 skanky whores with minds as dirty as my own.

Dades

Thread running a similar theme here. (FYIs).

eire2009

Really depends on what you experience on this earth .. Its possible to live in hell or heaven on this earth so seen as we only know this planet and living its quiet plausible that when we die we could experience the same whether you can derive the concept or not.
When you die even if there is no after life you still live on in the hearts and minds the people you left behind. That could be your only existence hopefully it will be pleasant.

Stercus Accidit

For a human being to enjoy eternity, they would need to be a totally different person to the one they are on earth.

Greedy, insecure, easily bored, always wanting more.

To remove those things would make a blissful heaven, but you wouldn't be human anymore, you wouldn't be yourself.

As such, why judge the greedy insecure human on earths validity for heaven if they wont be that person upon arrival?


Stupid concept, eternal bliss, sounds like some sort of simpsons esque re-nedification.

Shenshen

seamus wrote: »

Personally I would have to say that the concept of heaven is a lot less appealing than simply staying on earth.

I posed a question on the Christianity forum before, and the overall idea was that you "become one" with God. As opposed to it being a place where everyone is running around having their own fun, you become part of one uber-consciousness, where you gain a full understanding of the universe and live out eternity in this "bliss".

Sounds like hell to me - one consciousness, who knows *everything*, doing nothing by itself for eternity. How boring would that be? Of course a Christian will tell you that this consciousness transcends boredom. But not bliss oddly, it seems that when you know everything you can pick and choose what emotions you feel.

I would personally prefer to stay here for eternity and spend my time actually working out how the universe works. At least that would give me something to do for all that time.

I'm with Terry Pratchett on this one... you can't feel any emotions at all if you no longer have any glands.

How boring would neverending existence without emotions be? I imagine an Eastenders Omnibus and nobody's screaming or shouting....

antiskeptic

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

For a human being to enjoy eternity, they would need to be a totally different person to the one they are on earth.

Greedy, insecure, easily bored, always wanting more.

If your prepared to go the whole hog and sum this up as utterly self-centred you'd have a central claim of Christianity right there in a nutshell.

To remove those things would make a blissful heaven, but you wouldn't be human anymore, you wouldn't be yourself.

Unless of course, you desire to be rid of your self-centredness. In which case you'd be wanting 'yourself' to be changed into being another self - with the bit of self that wants this being ahead of the posse - so to speak.

As such, why judge the greedy insecure human on earths validity for heaven if they wont be that person upon arrival?

The person would be judged on the decision of that little bit of themselves that was in a position to decide whether they wanted to abandon their ship. Or whether they wanted to go down with all hands.

Stupid concept, eternal bliss, sounds like some sort of simpsons esque re-nedification.

Hopefully, arrival at this as a logical conclusion has been interrupted

Shenshen

legspin wrote: »

If I was guaranteed 72 virgins, probably. Mind you, I would much prefer 3 skanky whores with minds as dirty as my own.

Here's something to think about... will those 72 virgins remain virgins, as in restore themselves somehow? Otherwise you need to be fairly economical to make those 72 last for all eternity, no?

Stercus Accidit

antiskeptic wrote: »

If your prepared to go the whole hog and sum this up as utterly self-centred you'd have a central claim of Christianity right there in a nutshell.

People follow christianity because they are self centred(at least instinctively self preserving), they desire eternal life, to be reunited with people they miss, to avoid the naughty corner (hell).

Unless of course, you desire to be rid of your self-centredness. In which case you'd be wanting 'yourself' to be changed into being another self - with the bit of self that wants this being ahead of the posse - so to speak.

Our personalities are defined by how we control our base urges, or not, and to say that everything which makes us a human, an animal with self preserving instincts, is to be removed, what on earth actually goes to heaven? A blank slate? A 'soul'? If the soul isn't us with our personality flaws and all, it is just some thing along for the ride and the real person dissapears after death anyway.

The person would be judged on the decision of that little bit of themselves that was in a position to decide whether they wanted to abandon their ship. Or whether they wanted to go down with all hands.

Maybe its the head cold but this analogy doesn't make sense with regard what you have quoted. What part of the person is judged and what part gets into heaven?

Hopefully, arrival at this as a logical conclusion has been interrupted

Distracted, not interupted.

aidan24326

KeithAFC wrote: »

What would be the point of them? Sit around doing nothing forever?

I think alot of people who are religious and/or claim to believe in an afterlife don't really stop to think through the full implications of what eternity actually means. Effectively there would be no escape from your own existence. Ever. That's a nightmarish concept tbh.

Blikes wrote: »

Also, Hell isn't a place of fire and brimstone, it's apparently, a complete separation from God.

This is one of those really really wishy washy descriptions of heaven, that is difficult if not impossible to refute as you don't really know what it is you're trying to refute in the first place (and in truth neither does the other side). Typically vague and open to any interpretation that takes your fancy. This religion stuff is clever if nothing else.

seamus wrote: »

Personally I would have to say that the concept of heaven is a lot less appealing than simply staying on earth.

Personally I wouldn't consider either very appealing. Granted I wouldn't mind staying on earth for a bit longer than the lousy 70-odd years that we get, but staying here for ever would be as big a nightmare as heaven or hell. The earth wasn't a particularly appealing place to be for most of the time that humans have existed, and who knows what an awful place it could be in the future.

Valmont

aidan24326 wrote: »

Effectively there would be no escape from your own existence. Ever.

Not unless they have LSD in heaven, which I'm sure they do, given that it's paradise and all that. Why else would God create psycedelic drugs?

legspin

Shenshen wrote: »

Here's something to think about... will those 72 virgins remain virgins, as in restore themselves somehow? Otherwise you need to be fairly economical to make those 72 last for all eternity, no?

I don't know. If they're anything like the girls I knew as a a younger man you'd have to ply them with so much drink beforehand just to loosen them up they'd be comatose. They'd expect you to call the next day. I'm fairly sure as well that they would want a wedding ring before you could explore theirs... I'm beginning to think that it all may be more trouble than it's worth and the skanky hoes really is the way forward.

antiskeptic

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

People follow christianity because they are self centred(at least instinctively self preserving), they desire eternal life, to be reunited with people they miss, to avoid the naughty corner (hell).

I only found out Hell exists on the day I found out I'm not going there. Can your logic modify to accomodate?

Our personalities are defined by how we control our base urges, or not, and to say that everything which makes us a human, an animal with self preserving instincts, is to be removed, what on earth actually goes to heaven? A blank slate? A 'soul'?

What you call human, Christianity calls fallen human. Hence the possibility for two types of response to base urges: deny/permit. It isn't humanity that choses base urges, it is sub-humanity (or falleness) that choses so. To be 'saved' is to press the ejector button on the sub-human element of ourselves.

It's not that there will be no choice 'in heaven', it's just that there will be no option to chose between sub-human options.

If the soul isn't us with our personality flaws and all, it is just some thing along for the ride and the real person dissapears after death anyway.

I don't see how removing flaws in anything results in it not being itself (or even more itself). Is a battered BMW which is repaired, reupholstered and resprayed not more of a BMW rather than less?

Maybe its the head cold but this analogy doesn't make sense with regard what you have quoted. What part of the person is judged and what part gets into heaven?

The greedy aspect to yourself is something that you can either come to loathe about yourself. Or it is something you can come to make excuses for (so as to permit it to continue functioning). If coming to loathe then salvation beckons - which will involve you being rid of that aspect of yourself (see BMW analogy)

If on the other hand you love your greed (albeith finding it disquieting at times) and don't come to loathe it then the 'you' doing the loving will be Judged. Judged as greedy that is. And as greedy, will be of no use in the Kingdom of God. And so, will be discarded.

seamus

antiskeptic wrote: »

I don't see how removing flaws in anything results in it not being itself (or even more itself). Is a battered BMW which is repaired, reupholstered and resprayed not more of a BMW rather than less?

But that would require these flaws to have been introduced after the soul was created. By whom?

What I mean is that if the BMW rolls off the line with intentional dents and flaws which you later correct, then no, you don't have the same car that rolled off the production line.

On the other hand, if you create the BMW perfectly, then batter it with a baseball bat, only to repair it again, then that's just plain weird...

clived2

To me,

the concept of heaven is baffling,

Scenario: You have a lovely wife and 3 kids, You get killed in a car crash
and go to "heaven" I can assure you, it is not heaven, if i am not with my family, no matter whats there

antiskeptic

seamus wrote: »

But that would require these flaws to have been introduced after the soul was created. By whom?

On the other hand, if you create the BMW perfectly, then batter it with a baseball bat, only to repair it again, then that's just plain weird...

By the soul itself. This BMW can drive itself around the place. It was told to stick to the paved roads for which it was designed ... but wasn't prevented from taking to the dirt track if it so choose.

Canis Lupus

clived2 wrote: »

I can assure you, it is not heaven, if i am not with my family,

I'd gamble there are a few men who would disagree with that :P