Midlands range

Feidhlim Dignan

Im heading up to birr at the weekend and i was wondering if i can shoot at the range without being a member.
i want to put my new .223 through its paces and get her ready for some serious foxing.

bunny shooter

AFAIK you have to be "signed in" by a member and then there is a charge to use the range and you should also bring your FAC for the firearm/s you will be using & proof of adequate insurance too. Contact them to confirm, contact details here

http://www.nationalshootingcentre.ie/contact.html

elius

Id love to join but i just feel 600 for a new comer is border line ridiculous in this day and age.

Tackleberrywho

elius wrote: »

Id love to join but i just feel 600 for a new comer is border line ridiculous in this day and age.

As mentioned you can shoot if invited by a member.
It's much cheaper than a Golf club, & you get insurance as part of it not to mention being able to get answers to questions & or Help if you need it.

It is €265 every year after the first year.

As a result of MNSCI, I have made loads of friends, got loads of tips and help when i was first learning to Zero scopes etc.

I've been a member a since around 2000.
Prior to that everything i heard in an RFD I believed to be fact as i had no other people to advise on scopes etc.

You also get to see other peoples firearms and get to hear first hand the problems and solutions that people have found with them.

If you are competitive you can compete as much as you like.
And if you like to be part of something, Why not be part of the second longest range shooting club in Europe

Also you have the options of getting bigger into Rifles as being an active member is a "purpose" for having lovely toys:D:D

fish slapped

Tackle... has summed it all up

... all you need then is time to go !! (read permission from herself )

:D


Fish

Tackleberrywho

And Don't worry about not being from the Midlands, AFAIK 30 or so counties are represented as members.

I think no members from leitrim and one other county which escapes me at the mo!

Every time I'm there I hear accents from all over Ireland, sometimes from all over the globe!

rrpc

elius wrote: »

Id love to join but i just feel 600 for a new comer is border line ridiculous in this day and age.

Most clubs have a joining fee, it's your investment in the infrastructure that all the other members have invested in.

And you can't say that Midlands hasn't invested. Just looking at the 3,500 scaffolding planks used for the ground baffles makes me weak at the knees.

gunhappy_ie

elius wrote: »

Id love to join but i just feel 600 for a new comer is border line ridiculous in this day and age.

I agree with tac on about the facilities there as well as the members.

And i totally agree with the high joining fee, because it:

A, wards off time wasters.... or othose who seek to join a club to get a gun licence yet never use the club.

and

B, its only fair for members who have been paying over the years to upgarde the range to what it is today. I dont believe it to be fair that someone can come along and join up like that. Ive heard of a club up north charge a joining fee for this exact reason.

That i believe is the justification for the cost :)

Tackleberrywho

When i joined MRC/MNSCI there was a 400,300,200 100 & 50.

The Club house was an old prefab and that was about it.
Now TV,Pool Table, Vending machines,Toilets Large Carpark.
Pistol range, rifle shooting from 50-1200yards!
open week days by appointment, was only pen weekends at first!

It always was dearer to join at first.
If you can afford a new scope or rifle you can afford to join the range.
The range insurance is with IFA Countryside and I receive rebates on my phone bill & Car insurance as a result.

bunny shooter

elius wrote: »

Id love to join but i just feel 600 for a new comer is border line ridiculous in this day and age.

It's €585 for the first year AFAIK so that's €11.25 per week. Then it's €285 per year so that's €5.48 per week and as Tac says that includes insurance.

Have you been there and had a look at the facilities? You'll get nothing like it anywhere else in the ROI.

I just wish I could spend more time there

Tackleberrywho

tac foley wrote: »

Please explain what you mean by 'ground baffles'. I have to admit that I have never encountered such things.

But then I've only been shooting since 1952, and there are sure to be things that are new to me.

Autres pays, autres facons, as we say. ;=\

tac

http://www.nationalshootingcentre.ie/images/baffled-after.jpg


It's an old pic, as it was taken in the winter. it's full of grass now. An Extra Safety Measure!
Before


And after

bunny shooter

Here ya go Tac

Have a look under the "Baffles" title a wee bit down this page;)

http://www.nationalshootingcentre.ie/notice.html

Thanks Tacwho ............... beat me to it

Cass

LongRifle

tac foley wrote: »

Thanks, bunny shooter.

Now, humour me. It states that this 'complies with all current range safety regulations'. What range safety regulations are they that make structures like this necessary?

It looks to be a pretty windy old location there - so what happens to the wind over the baffles? How do you shoot over the wind over the baffles? Have the rest of us got it all wrong with the design of OUR ranges that don't have ground based baffles?

I've still not got my my head around this - it's NOT photo-shopped, now is it?

tac

You should see how many baffles it took to get to the 1200yrd!;)

Tackleberrywho

ezridax wrote: »

Thats a better pic, you should get them to stick it up on the website!

elius

To be honest with you i could justify it if i lived close but at most id make it down once a month. I dont see why they dont except day members. If the gardai see you fit to hold a rifle shorely to god the midlands range can.. And it would present quite abit of revenue for the club which in turn could help keep membership costs down. If i could drive down for the day once a month pay 70 quid and shoot for a day id consider good value to be honest.

Who wants to bring me:D

Tackleberrywho

elius wrote: »

To be honest with you i could justify it if i lived close but at most id make it down once a month. I dont see why they dont except day members. If the gardai see you fit to hold a rifle shorely to god the midlands range can.. And it would present quite abit of revenue for the club which in turn could help keep membership costs down. If i could drive down for the day once a month pay 70 quid and shoot for a day id consider good value to be honest.

Who wants to bring me:D

Any member including yours truly can sign you in for the day, you can only shoot if you have your own Public Liability insurance firearms certs with you .

€70x12 €840 per year if you go your way!

Remember its only €5 and change a week after year 1!

elius

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Any member including yours truly can sign you in for the day, you can only shoot if you have your own Public Liability insurance firearms certs with you .

€70x12 €840 per year if you go your way!

Remember its only €5 and change a week after year 1!

Yey but 600 hundred lids as an awefull lot up front. Id love to head down at some point with the pea shooter lol. Might take ya up on that tac thanks does country side alliance cover you?

Tackleberrywho

elius wrote: »

Yey but 600 hundred lids as an awefull lot up front. Id love to head down at some point with the pea shooter lol. Might take ya up on that tac thanks does country side alliance cover you?

Yes, but you have to bring your card and your licence!!

No Pea Shooting without it!

Rovi

elius wrote: »

I dont see why they dont except day members.

They can't, and neither can any other Authorised Club or Range; 'day or temporary membership' is specifically prohibited in legislation:
S.I. No. 308 of 2009

FIREARMS (AUTHORISATION OF RIFLE OR PISTOL CLUBS) REGULATIONS 2009 wrote:

4. (4) A club shall not run any day or temporary membership schemes.

Tackleberrywho

Rovi wrote: »

They can't, and neither can any other Authorised Club or Range; 'day or temporary membership' is specifically prohibited in legislation:
S.I. No. 308 of 2009

Good Man Rovi!
Thats what I was looking for

It wasn't me!

Just an aside, but having seen the two photos together drives it home. Those baffles really uglied up the place, big time.

Feidhlim Dignan

sorry guy but what are the baffles for? sound, bullet stopping?

Tackleberrywho

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Just an aside, but having seen the two photos together drives it home. Those baffles really uglied up the place, big time.

T'is not about being Purdy, Tis about keeping DOJ happy

Tackleberrywho

Feidhlim Dignan wrote: »

sorry guy but what are the baffles for? sound, bullet stopping?

Bullet stopping if you hit the deck they say!

I've never seen a round hit the deck, But How and Trevor!

rrpc

Feidhlim Dignan wrote: »

sorry guy but what are the baffles for? sound, bullet stopping?

They are there to prevent ricochets from leaving the range. There are other ways of doing this, but ground baffles on long ranges can be the easiest.

mrhd

Rovi wrote: »

They can't, and neither can any other Authorised Club or Range; 'day or temporary membership' is specifically prohibited in legislation:
S.I. No. 308 of 2009

Another ill concieved piece of legislation. I can understand DOJ wanting to stop guys without a FAC walking in off the street and renting club rifles etc.

But I for example have a rifle FAC and NARGC insurance, which implies DOJ/GS think I am safe and trustworthy. I would occasionally use a range on a pay as you go basis, if it were allowed, to zero scopes rather than having to find a safe location locally.

That section of the SI would allow for pay-as-you-go for FAC holders using their own rifles, if we lived in a country with logical thinking politico's. And because it is an SI it can as I understand it be amended by the minister without having to go back to the Dail.

I can only hope.

rrpc

mrhd wrote: »

Another ill concieved piece of legislation. I can understand DOJ wanting to stop guys without a FAC walking in off the street and renting club rifles etc.

But I for example have a rifle FAC and NARGC insurance, which implies DOJ/GS think I am safe and trustworthy. I would occasionally use a range on a pay as you go basis, if it were allowed, to zero scopes rather than having to find a safe location locally.

That section of the SI would allow for pay-as-you-go for FAC holders using their own rifles, if we lived in a country with logical thinking politico's. And because it is an SI it can as I understand it be amended by the minister without having to go back to the Dail.

I can only hope.

Except that a club with an authorisation, by default gives anyone who's a member a licence to use club guns. So a temporary membership would allow anyone use any club firearm without actually having a licence, by just paying a small 'temporary' membership fee.

mrhd

Fair enough.

But Section 4 of the SI could be expanded a little to say something along the lines of 'this restriction will not apply to FAC holders wishing to use the firearms to which the FAC applies'

rrpc

mrhd wrote: »

Fair enough.

But Section 4 of the SI could be expanded a little to say something along the lines of 'this restriction will not apply to FAC holders wishing to use the firearms to which the FAC applies'

It allows for visitors and in fact specifies that certain information with regard to visitors (including their FAC number) be recorded by the club.

It really depends on the club after that, to specify under what circumstances a visitor can use the range.

I'm sure there'll be more detail on this in the upcoming ranges SI.

Rovi

tac foley wrote: »

Now, humour me. It states that this 'complies with all current range safety regulations'. What range safety regulations are they that make structures like this necessary?

The DOJ have chosen to use/adapt the Canadian Range Design and Construction Guidelines (PDF 6.28MB), which details all this stuff.

To the best of my knowledge (very much open to correction), that's still what they're working with.

Sceptical minds might view some of this as a fine way of imposing obstacles and costs on ranges in the hope that they might eventually give up in the face of the constant deluge of bureaucracy and expense, I'm sure that couldn't possibly be the case though.

Cynical minds will note the provision therein for the sport and acceptance of the qualifications of Range Officers of 'The Shooting Sport Whose Name Shall Not Be Spoken', and ponder as to how DOJ/Nasty Little Man managed to overlook that particular bit of evidence as to the acceptability of the sport in one of their own preferred documents. :mad:

rrpc

Rovi wrote: »

The DOJ have chosen to use/adapt the Canadian Range Design and Construction Guidelines (PDF 6.28MB), which details all this stuff.

To the best of my knowledge (very much open to correction), that's still what they're working with.

AFAIK, it's been heavily adapted and in fact augmented with some new ideas such as having a combination of danger area and no danger area templates. I know one range that's adopted that template.

There are other ways of avoiding ricochets off the range floor. Lowering the level between the firing point and target line is one that anyone who's been to Stickledown range in Bisley will be familiar with.

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

Except that a club with an authorisation, by default gives anyone who's a member a licence to use club guns. So a temporary membership would allow anyone use any club firearm without actually having a licence, by just paying a small 'temporary' membership fee.

Well, yes, but; according to 2(4)(d), anyone can use a firearm on an authorised range. Membership and the firearm being a club firearm aren't mentioned in 2(4)(d). So unless it's a specific condition in the authorisation (and granted, it is in many, but not in all), the SI doesn't do what it was intended to do. (and there's the question of what the paying of a range fee does to visitor status, if someone was to look into that can for worms...)

But then, the SI was only ever a first slash at the problem; fine-tuning it can and should happen. It's just a question of manpower and political will.

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Well, yes, but; according to 2(4)(d), anyone can use a firearm on an authorised range. Membership and the firearm being a club firearm aren't mentioned in 2(4)(d). So unless it's a specific condition in the authorisation (and granted, it is in many, but not in all), the SI doesn't do what it was intended to do. (and there's the question of what the paying of a range fee does to visitor status, if someone was to look into that can for worms...)

Easily circumvented by issuing the authorisation under section 4A and thus making it subject to the clubs SI. Payment is a different proposition, but if you take entry fees for a compeition...

pedroeibar1

mrhd wrote: »

Another ill concieved piece of legislation. I can understand DOJ wanting to stop guys without a FAC walking in off the street and renting club rifles etc.

But I for example have a rifle FAC and NARGC insurance, which implies DOJ/GS think I am safe and trustworthy. I would occasionally use a range on a pay as you go basis, if it were allowed, to zero scopes rather than having to find a safe location locally.

That section of the SI would allow for pay-as-you-go for FAC holders using their own rifles, if we lived in a country with logical thinking politico's. And because it is an SI it can as I understand it be amended by the minister without having to go back to the Dail.

I can only hope.

I know times are tough and it is difficult to fork out an entry fee BUT Midland's fees are very reasonable (I’m not a member).
Put them in perspective- golf and yacht/sailing clubs run at minimum €1500 PA with a similar amount as a once-off joining fee. Most of them have a reduced level of fee for Country Members (those living more than 100kms away) but that is about €400 - €600 PA which is about double what Midlands charges for ordinary membership.
Most golf& sailing clubs have haemorrhaged members over the last couple of years and have not increased fees – some of the new golf clubs have dropped entry fees just to survive.
FWIW, I cannot see how Section (4) of SI 308/2009 [A club shall not run any day or temporary membership schemes.] could prevent the creation of “Country Member” status if a club wanted to do so. The purpose of the legislation would appear to be to prevent casual callers from being instructed in firearms use/training. It could be an earner, country member status @€;120 and allowing 12 visits p.a. could entice those who would not be happy to pay full whack - but club would have to do the sums on existing members dropping in status.
P.

kildare.17hmr

tac foley wrote: »

But it's NOT a long range - it's only 300m it says on the gweth about the range.

1200 yards is a long range. Stickledown Range at bisley is this long, and has no ground baffles.

2500m is a pretty long range. The one I shoot on in the north of England has no ground baffles.

...and 5000-15000m IS a long range. The one I shoot on in the USA is called Idaho and that has no ground baffles either.

Sorry, I KNOW I said I'd shut-up, but it notes above that it is based on regulations governing the construction of ranges in Canada. I shoot in Canada and I've never seen a range like that there.

However, in charity, I've asked a friend of mine in Quebec - a fellow Swiss rifle shooter -who is big on ranges, to offer me a crumb of comfort.

tac
www.swissrifles.com

eh midlands has a 1200 yard range tac
http://www.nationalshootingcentre.ie/

rrpc

tac foley wrote: »

But it's NOT a long range - it's only 300m it says on the gweth about the range.

1200 yards is a long range. Stickledown Range at bisley is this long, and has no ground baffles.

I think you'll find that I mentioned that a couple of posts above your reply. Stickledown has a lowered range floor to prevent ricochets, it also has a danger area of 1.5 miles (I think) beyond the stop butts.

There are many different ways of handling the problem on ranges, ground baffles are just one of them. Different ranges depending on where they are or what calibres are used on them take different approaches. I don't know of any that don't engineer some solution to the problem.

poulo6.5

Rovi wrote: »

They can't, and neither can any other Authorised Club or Range; 'day or temporary membership' is specifically prohibited in legislation:
S.I. No. 308 of 2009

I understand that it is the law and all that but I can not for the life of me understand why.
Can anyone here tell me why it would be illegal for a club to allow new shooters the chance to zero their rifle in a safe environment with people around to help and give pointers and advise.
Or am I just mad for thinking like that.
Maybe there is something I am missing here. But that seems to me to be counter productive.

Think of it this way. A lad has gone out and gotten permission from farmers and walked the land and has done all the the nesseserry things needed to buy a rifle ".22" for instance. Licence is issued and he picks up the rifle and 100 rounds. It could have bin the first time he ever layed a hand on a gun.

Now what do we expect him to do.
First of all asuming it needs a scope tie person has to for a scope
Then load the rifle and shoot something. But what. Hay look there is a stone over there I'll shoot that.
Now where did the bullet go.
Remember this lad never had a gun never heard about zeroing and for all the world the round could have gone anywhere. Anyway you can see where I'm going with this.

Now let's assume that it is allowed (or even a requirement ) to do a day at a range. What do you think is the best option.

shedd7

poulo6.5 wrote: »

I understand that it is the law and all that but I can not for the life of me understand why.
Can anyone here tell me why it would be illegal for a club to allow new shooters the chance to zero their rifle in a safe environment with people around to help and give pointers and advise.
Or am I just mad for thinking like that.
Maybe there is something I am missing here. But that seems to me to be counter productive.

Think of it this way. A lad has gone out and gotten permission from farmers and walked the land and has done all the the nesseserry things needed to buy a rifle ".22" for instance. Licence is issued and he picks up the rifle and 100 rounds. It could have bin the first time he ever layed a hand on a gun.

Now what do we expect him to do.
First of all asuming it needs a scope tie person has to for a scope
Then load the rifle and shoot something. But what. Hay look there is a stone over there I'll shoot that.
Now where did the bullet go.
Remember this lad never had a gun never heard about zeroing and for all the world the round could have gone anywhere. Anyway you can see where I'm going with this.

Now let's assume that it is allowed (or even a requirement ) to do a day at a range. What do you think is the best option.

You have obviously missed a lot of what has happened in the last year. First applicants are required to have successfully completed a firearms safety course, so what you are talking about should not be an issue anymore. Personal experience tells me that your situation as described can and does happen (I was that soldier but in my case it was a tin oil can not a stone and I wasn't even aware of the guy on the other side of the ditch, until I heard some flowery language as the .22 bullets whizzing around made the guy a little nervous):o

kildare.17hmr

the FSC can be done anytime so long as you have it done before applying for the licence, so before you buy or after it does not really matter once you do it

kildare.17hmr

shedd7 wrote: »

You have obviously missed a lot of what has happened in the last year. First applicants are required to have successfully completed a firearms safety course, so what you are talking about should not be an issue anymore. Personal experience tells me that your situation as described can and does happen (I was that soldier but in my case it was a tin oil can not a stone and I wasn't even aware of the guy on the other side of the ditch, until I heard some flowery language as the .22 bullets whizzing around made the guy a little nervous):o

Just because you do the course does not mean you wont need help setting up your rifle fist time, the course covers safe handling and shooting ect, not how to zero a rifle

mrbrianj

I suppose you have to look at the traditional "shooter" in Ireland, there are still only a small number of ranges and Midlands being the only ( I think) real long range club. In the past most guys would have started out hunting with fathers/uncles/older brothers using shotguns and .22 rifles - everything else was heavily restricted. Other countries had wider ranges of guns available and different places to shot them. The Gaurds may not have been too receptive if you were looking of a gun not for hunting.

So I imagine it was assumed that you had a bit if experience, some people would have got a licence without any but usually the informal interview with the Gaurds to make them happy you werent an eejit was enough

Times have changed and it seems you can shot whatever you want with reasonable cause and I suspose thats why we are running in the new licence system- its a bit of a mess but should sort itself out over time

Mr.Flibble

tac foley wrote: »

Certainly, having just received a response from my RCO pal in Canada, there are no ranges THERE that bear the slightest resemblance to that one at Tullaghmore.

Why am I so unsurprised to read that.

I don't believe for a second Stickledown was designed to prevent ricochets in the way RRPC infers. I'm sure it's just an accident of the topography, the desire for level firing points on sloping ground, drainage and the need for each firing point to be able to see over all those in front of it. There are no such elevated firing points on Century.

The irony is that, if I understand it correctly, the old practice of firing "blow-off" shots in Match Rifle shooting was guaranteed to put a lot of shots into this "ricochet-danger" area. But Stickledown has been in use for about 120 years and not that many people have been killed by ricochets. Maybe once our country has been in existence that long the PTB will have gained sufficient maturity to allow more common sense in range and firearms regulation.

Sadly I don't expect to survive long enough to see it.

rrpc

Mr.Flibble wrote: »

Why am I so unsurprised to read that.

I don't believe for a second Stickledown was designed to prevent ricochets in the way RRPC infers. I'm sure it's just an accident of the topography, the desire for level firing points on sloping ground, drainage and the need for each firing point to be able to see over all those in front of it. There are no such elevated firing points on Century.

The 300m and 600m firing points on Century range are elevated above the flat plane of the range. The ranges in Bisley are designed according to the MOD range design criteria JSP403 which does in fact specify raised firing positions. Again, this is somewhat irrelevant given the very extensive danger area behind the stop butts on both ranges.

Midlands ranges are deigned primarily as 'limited danger area' ranges. The main criterion for these types of ranges is that no shot can escape the boundary of the range or the limited danger area specified.

The difficulty with designing full danger area ranges (like Stickledown) is that you have to have control of a significant portion of land beyond the stop butts and radiating out in a cone from the firing points. It's a very expensive proposition which is usually cheaper and simpler to achieve using an engineered solution like ground and overhead baffles.

Edit: Just looking at the safety templates in the original Canadian specs and it specifies a 2.8Km safety distance for the .308 Winchester, 4.2Km for .338 Lapua Magnum and a whopping 6.6Km for the Browning .50 :eek:

That's a lot of land even if your max calibre is .308 Win.

Mr.Flibble

rrpc wrote: »

The 300m and 600m firing points on Century range are elevated above the flat plane of the range. The ranges in Bisley are designed according to the MOD range design criteria JSP403 which does in fact specify raised firing positions. Again, this is somewhat irrelevant given the very extensive danger area behind the stop butts on both ranges.

The 300m firing point is elevated to get it closer to the level of the targets, to conform with ISSF rules. There is no 600m firing point. The 600yds one is raised a few inches to provide a better surface to shoot off.

You brought up Bisley; now you say it's irrelevant. You need to make up your mind.

Mr.Flibble

rrpc wrote: »

That's a lot of land even if your max calibre is .308 Win.

Canada's a big country.

Sparks

Mr.Flibble wrote: »

Canada's a big country.

And here's not; so standards in one place get adapted for the other. Which is one reason why we have things like ground baffles.

tac foley wrote: »

if your Midlands range has a clientele who habitually hit the ground whilst shooting at 300m, who am I to point out that they would appear to be unique in the shooting world?

They are very unique in the shooting world in that they have to deal with the DoJ; and if the price for a 1200yd range is a few ugly-looking and functionally superflous boards on the range, well, small price.

tac foley

I have been PM'd by a member of this board and asked to remove certain words from one of my posts in this thread which are seen, by him, as insulting and demeaning.

Not wishing to embarrass, offend, insult or imply anything else other than respect for anybody here by further postings on this subject, I have deleted all my posts prior to this one.

You will all appreciate that I can do nothing about those posts that have quoted my words.

Thank you.

tac

Mr.Flibble

Sparks wrote: »

They are very unique in the shooting world in that they have to deal with the DoJ; and if the price for a 1200yd range is a few ugly-looking and functionally superflous boards on the range, well, small price.

Did they have to put them on the 1200yd (& presumably 600yd) range(s) as well? It won't have been that small a price

rrpc

Mr.Flibble wrote: »

The 300m firing point is elevated to get it closer to the level of the targets, to conform with ISSF rules. There is no 600m firing point. The 600yds one is raised a few inches to provide a better surface to shoot off.

You brought up Bisley; now you say it's irrelevant. You need to make up your mind.

I didn't say Bisley is irrelevant. I pointed out that different ranges use different templates to maintain safety, Bisley was an example of a danger area range and Stickledown was an example of a depressed range floor that wouldn't present the same ricochet hazard as Tullamore as well as having a substantial danger area. You then brought up Century range as if it was in some way the same as Tullamore and I've pointed to the fact that it also has a large danger area. What's irrelevant is the height of the firing point on a danger area range because the ricochet hazard is already engineered out.

You can pick any range you like and you'll find that it has used whatever is the most cost effective solution. In Canada it might be that land is cheaper, so a danger area template is probably the best alternative. In Ireland, land is expensive or just impossible to acquire so other solutions have to be found.

There's no right or wrong way, just the optimum way for the circumstances. They could have raised the firing points in Midlands, but that would have also meant raising the stop butts. Alternatively they could have dug out the range floor but that would have affected drainage and have been a massive undertaking over such a large area. Creating a danger area would have been prohibitively expensive in land costs.

Kryten

tac foley wrote: »

I have been PM'd by a member of this board and asked to remove certain words from one of my posts in this thread which are seen, by him, as insulting and demeaning.

Not wishing to embarrass, offend, insult or imply anything else other than respect for anybody here by further postings on this subject, I have deleted all my posts prior to this one.

You will all appreciate that I can do nothing about those posts that have quoted my words.

Thank you.

tac

Seen your quotes in other peoples posts and wondered have you been moderated out of the scene

You have a unique perspective as a well travelled and internationally experienced shooter and if I may say, you speak a lot of sense. My late father would have liked you