Lurgan Bomb

Notorious97

Fratton Fred wrote: »

but do you condemn them?

I thought i made it clear on my view on this? Im republican, they are republican, i want what they want, i just want it another way. I stated numerous times now i don’t support their campaign as i am firmly behind the GFA, stop looking for an argument.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That's good of you.

You will have to forgive me if I think that the people who bombed the city I have worked in most of my life are complete scumbags. I don't see nationalism as being that important.

Thats your opinion to view the PIRA as scumbags, nobody said you arent entitled to it. If Britains occupation of the north east of our country was not a reality back when the troubles flared up, and had they not treated the native Irish as 2nd class citizens / dogs and when they asked for basic human and civil rights are shot down in cold blood by an army of murderers and scumbags (yes the british army) the PIRA would not have had a reason or indeed circumstances to exist. As you said before this thread is going around in circles, we both have difference views, but i don’t appreciate people claiming that other republicans or myself condone these attacks when we quite clearly don’t.

Thanks

Wolfe Tone

No. I'm trying to goad him defending them in any way shaope of form.

Yawn.

Fratton Fred

Notorious97 wrote: »

I thought i made it clear on my view on this? Im republican, they are republican, i want what they want, i just want it another way. I stated numerous times now i don’t support their campaign as i am firmly behind the GFA, stop looking for an argument.

so, do you condemn their methods? do you condemn the targeting of the PSNI in this manner?

steddyeddy

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Right so, give me your solution.

GO!

I dont have a solution the way the north is going is untenable.

Fratton Fred

steddyeddy wrote: »

I dont have a solution the way the north is going is untenable.

which means what?

Notorious97

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so, do you condemn their methods? do you condemn the targeting of the PSNI in this manner?

Seriously are you messing? I have stated i don’t agree with bombings, last time i checked that is their methods no? Therefore i do not agree with bombings!

As for the PSNI, i don’t personally see a difference between the PSNI and the RUC except they changed the name, i think the crest changed and they recruited some Catholics for show. Saying all that though as a result of the GFA they are in existence under this new name, and therefore should be supported as SF have pledged to do so also. I don’t believe they should be considered legitimate targets as i support the GFA and the achievement of a United Ireland through peaceful means.

The British Army though i read are still raiding houses in Derry recently, and if they are engaging in this and not leaving it up to the police to police the population, i can see how some groups would consider the BA legitimate targets. Saying this though i do not think what the R / C IRA are doing is right, or indeed helpful to the progress of peace within the north east of this island and should refrain from violence and attacks on the BA / PSNI as it wont get us anywhere. Im sorry i havent been labelling these misguided republicans scumbags and bastards are you would like me to, but both the R / C IRA and myself have the same end goal, a United Ireland, i just choose to support a different way of achieving it.

Is this a good enough answer for you? or shall we continue?

Fratton Fred

Notorious97 wrote: »

Seriously are you messing? I have stated i don’t agree with bombings, last time i checked that is their methods no? Therefore i do not agree with bombings!

As for the PSNI, i don’t personally see a difference between the PSNI and the RUC except they changed the name, i think the crest changed and they recruited some Catholics for show. Saying all that though as a result of the GFA they are in existence under this new name, and therefore should be supported as SF have pledged to do so also. I don’t believe they should be considered legitimate targets as i support the GFA and the achievement of a United Ireland through peaceful means.

The British Army though i read are still raiding houses in Derry recently, and if they are engaging in this and not leaving it up to the police to police the population, i can see how some groups would consider the BA legitimate targets. Saying this though i do not think what the R / C IRA are doing is right, or indeed helpful to the progress of peace within the north east of this island and should refrain from violence and attacks on the BA / PSNI as it wont get us anywhere. Im sorry i havent been labelling these misguided republicans scumbags and bastards are you would like me to, but both the R / C IRA and myself have the same end goal, a United Ireland, i just choose to support a different way of achieving it.

Is this a good enough answer for you? or shall we continue?

No condemnation though?

I'd like to see Pompey win the league, i'd also like to see the current owners clear off. However, if someone with the same view decided to start bombing people in the misguided belief that this would make it happen, i would be very quick to condemnt them and their actions.

FYI, the BA were asked to assist the police in a raid on a house, there was nothing underhand about it, it is common procedure and one that is used across the UK. In fact, I believe they even published the names of the people involved so that it was all above board. It was a Police raid, not an army one. Again, this sort of rhetoric just adds fuel to a fire that does not need it.

Notorious97

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No condemnation though?

I'd like to see Pompey win the league, i'd also like to see the current owners clear off. However, if someone with the same view decided to start bombing people in the misguided belief that this would make it happen, i would be very quick to condemnt them and their actions.

FYI, the BA were asked to assist the police in a raid on a house, there was nothing underhand about it, it is common procedure and one that is used across the UK. In fact, I believe they even published the names of the people involved so that it was all above board. It was a Police raid, not an army one. Again, this sort of rhetoric just adds fuel to a fire that does not need it.

In my opinion if the PSNI wants to be considered a real police force, they should have their own ‘swat’ team to assist on this, and not use the BA as its only bound to be used against them. Thats just my view on it.

How far would you like me to go in condemning them then? I have said i don’t agree with it, bombing innocent people isn’t right. Just because i can see why certain targets are bombed doesn’t mean i agree with it, it just means i can look at a situation and try understand why its happening. Believe it or not, but anybody within the ranks of the IRA didn’t just wake up one morning, have a cup of tea and decide to go bomb the sh*te out of Britain. Im sure if the progress up north that we have now could have been achieved through the civil rights marches (without being murdered for it) then the violence this country witnessed and which history has recorded for all to observe would not have happened on the scale it did.

I await you reply to try have me slag off republicans some more.

Fratton Fred

Notorious97 wrote: »

In my opinion if the PSNI wants to be considered a real police force, they should have their own ‘swat’ team to assist on this, and not use the BA as its only bound to be used against them. Thats just my view on it.

How far would you like me to go in condemning them then? I have said i don’t agree with it, bombing innocent people isn’t right. Just because i can see why certain targets are bombed doesn’t mean i agree with it, it just means i can look at a situation and try understand why its happening. Believe it or not, but anybody within the ranks of the IRA didn’t just wake up one morning, have a cup of tea and decide to go bomb the sh*te out of Britain. Im sure if the progress up north that we have now could have been achieved through the civil rights marches (without being murdered for it) then the violence this country witnessed and which history has recorded for all to observe would not have happened on the scale it did.

I await you reply to try have me slag off republicans some more.

I don't disagree with what yo are saying. The UK failed the people of Northern ireland, big time and, in theory, i support a united Ireland, but i don't think it will come about any time soon.

in my opinion, the North needs a very long normalisation period so that the deons of the past can be exorcised. i think both the UK and the RoI need to find commonality in things like car number plates, currency (I think that once the current recession is over, the UK will adopt the euro, so that is one thing out of the way) and even alignment of taxation. that way there will be no real difference between living in NI or Ireland.

i think the RoI needs to make a few changes, allow alcohol to be sold on Good Friday, stop RTE playing the Angelus (Whatever the **** that is anyway), kick all churches out of the majority of schools and hospitals so that the country looks a lot less catholic.

Then, maybe, the PSNi and AGS could be merged, to form an all Irelalnd police force followed by Stormont and the Dail somehow having a say in how each others country's are run.

Wht NI does not need right now is a bunch of barstool republicans from Dublin telling them what should and shouldn't be done. I think the people up there have been through enough and it would be a good idea if we all left them alone for a while so they can get their lives back to normal.

Notorious97

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I don't disagree with what yo are saying. The UK failed the people of Northern ireland, big time and, in theory, i support a united Ireland, but i don't think it will come about any time soon.

in my opinion, the North needs a very long normalisation period so that the deons of the past can be exorcised. i think both the UK and the RoI need to find commonality in things like car number plates, currency (I think that once the current recession is over, the UK will adopt the euro, so that is one thing out of the way) and even alignment of taxation. that way there will be no real difference between living in NI or Ireland.

i think the RoI needs to make a few changes, allow alcohol to be sold on Good Friday, stop RTE playing the Angelus (Whatever the **** that is anyway), kick all churches out of the majority of schools and hospitals so that the country looks a lot less catholic.

Then, maybe, the PSNi and AGS could be merged, to form an all Irelalnd police force followed by Stormont and the Dail somehow having a say in how each others country's are run.

Wht NI does not need right now is a bunch of barstool republicans from Dublin telling them what should and shouldn't be done. I think the people up there have been through enough and it would be a good idea if we all left them alone for a while so they can get their lives back to normal.

I agreed with most of what you said, but not all.

I don’t think the Republic looks as catholic as it once did, in light of all the scandals etc, being a catholic in the republic is entirely different to being one up north. I agree a UI isn’t going to happen over night and unionists will have to be made see they benefit by being in it, i have always said i would happily see unionists having a strong say in the running of our country.

I havent once told the people of NI what to do, and never will i. I havent lived through that experience so its not for me, i can say from what i have read and looked into, that yes Britain failed one side of the community of NI, and helped create and prop up a protestant state for a protestant people. There is alot of work to be done, and hard work too, but as i have said splinter groups serve no purpose in helping move forward the progress already achieved by the GFA

Fratton Fred

Notorious97 wrote: »

I agreed with most of what you said, but not all.

I don’t think the Republic looks as catholic as it once did, in light of all the scandals etc, being a catholic in the republic is entirely different to being one up north. I agree a UI isn’t going to happen over night and unionists will have to be made see they benefit by being in it, i have always said i would happily see unionists having a strong say in the running of our country.

it may not look as catholic as it once did, but trust me, as a non catholic, this is a very very Catholic country. This isn't a problem to me, but for some of the bigots up north, this could be a real stumbling block (or excuse) to unification.

I'm not sure it is just unionists who need to be made aware of the benefits (if there are actually any benefits). There are a lot of people up there who rely on the civil service for their jobs, who receive free prescriptions from a free health service and who only pay a very small amount in certain taxes, like car tax and stamp duty.

Compare the price of a pint or a loaf of bread between Enniskillen and Ballyconnell for example as well, would you like to see the price of your groceries go up by anout 30%? There is a lot of work still to be done and it is a lot more than getting more catholics into the PSNI or stopping the British Army being used in a police raid.

IMHO, a lot of these things are used as excuses because there is, as yet, no serious solution to unification. SF harp on about how it will benefit us all, but how? how will they bridge the differences in the economy?

Germany nearly bankrupt itself when it reunified, how would Ireland cope with a similar economic burden?

KeithAFC

Notorious97 wrote: »

I thought i made it clear on my view on this? Im republican, they are republican, i want what they want, i just want it another way. I stated numerous times now i don’t support their campaign as i am firmly behind the GFA, stop looking for an argument.





Thats your opinion to view the PIRA as scumbags, nobody said you arent entitled to it. If Britains occupation of the north east of our country was not a reality back when the troubles flared up, and had they not treated the native Irish as 2nd class citizens / dogs and when they asked for basic human and civil rights are shot down in cold blood by an army of murderers and scumbags (yes the british army) the PIRA would not have had a reason or indeed circumstances to exist. As you said before this thread is going around in circles, we both have difference views, but i don’t appreciate people claiming that other republicans or myself condone these attacks when we quite clearly don’t.

Thanks

It's not just your country.

KeithAFC

There is a lot of work still to be done and it is a lot more than getting more catholics into the PSNI

This nonsense about getting more catholics into the PSNI simply because they are a catholic needs to stop. I want the best people possible in the PSNI who can do the job to the best of their ability and do it right. I don't care as a unionist what religion you are.

The amount of times i see this being said is really mind boggling.

KeithAFC

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You are defending the indefenceable.

Giving them excuses. it is the same stuff we have heard time after time "Oh, the Omagh bomb wasn't meant to kill anybody, they just got the warning wrong", or "The Birmingham pub bombers did try and phone in a warning, but the phone box had been vandalised".

To say they weren't targeting children is splitting hairs that do not need to be split. Saying they were not targetting children is giving them some sort of credibility which thy do not deserve.

Who cares if they were targeting children of nor, the simple fact of the matter is that children were hurt, therefore their bombs targetted children, intentionally or not.

Agree. Absolutely pathetic Mussolini.

Notorious97

KeithAFC wrote: »

It's not just your country.

Im well aware i am not the only person living on this island, thanks.

Just because i am not the only person on the island though does not mean i cannot have my view on what’s going on, and make my points.

We were just discussing both our points of view, it wasnt like i was rounding on people who did not agree and telling them it was my country.

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

Agree. Absolutely pathetic Mussolini.

Do I have to go down the route with you too? I already said that it was absolutely despicable, what more do you want me to say?
I honestly do not see how pointing out the aim of the operation(to kill/hurt PSNI) is defending them. The fact is kids were hurt and it should never have happened. They were not directly targeting the kids. Now you can take the line of thought "they don't care who they hurt as long as they get the PSNI" that's grand, and on the evidence of this its clear why one would think that. The fact of the matter is that the PSNI will be targeted again, in fact shots were fired at them that very evening, you wont hear about kids being targeted. To say that they were targeting kids and ignoring correction with regards to who the were targeting is burying your head in the sand and ignoring the problem.

KeithAFC

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Do I have to go down the route with you too? I already said that it was absolutely despicable, what more do you want me to say?
I honestly do not see how pointing out the aim of the operation(to kill/hurt PSNI) is defending them. The fact is kids were hurt and it should never have happened. They were not directly targeting the kids. Now you can take the line of thought "they don't care who they hurt as long as they get the PSNI" that's grand, and on the evidence of this its clear why one would think that. The fact of the matter is that the PSNI will be targeted again, in fact shots were fired at them that very evening, you wont hear about kids being targeted. To say that they were targeting kids and ignoring correction with regards to who the were targeting is burying your head in the sand and ignoring the problem.

I meant him quoting some of the things you said, Omagh for example.

aDeener

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Do I have to go down the route with you too? I already said that it was absolutely despicable, what more do you want me to say?
I honestly do not see how pointing out the aim of the operation(to kill/hurt PSNI) is defending them. The fact is kids were hurt and it should never have happened. They were not directly targeting the kids. Now you can take the line of thought "they don't care who they hurt as long as they get the PSNI" that's grand, and on the evidence of this its clear why one would think that. The fact of the matter is that the PSNI will be targeted again, in fact shots were fired at them that very evening, you wont hear about kids being targeted. To say that they were targeting kids and ignoring correction with regards to who the were targeting is burying your head in the sand and ignoring the problem.

you should know by now that stating facts round here gets ya nowhere :pac:

Wolfe Tone

aDeener wrote: »

you should know by now that stating facts round here gets ya nowhere :pac:

Once they know you are a republican especially! haha

KeithAFC

They planted a bomb in a bin in an area which has kids and people around it. They didn't have a clue there was a bomb planted. They planted a bomb during a peace process which has been going now for years.

Not wise and just pathetic.

Savage Tyrant

KeithAFC wrote: »

They planted a bomb in a bin in an area which has kids and people around it. They didn't have a clue there was a bomb planted. They planted a bomb during a peace process which has been going now for years.

Not wise and just pathetic.

I'm pretty sure if you read back over Mussolini's posts, that's exactly what he thinks too.
Unfortunately it seems to be the case amonst most unionists to hear what they want to hear from Republicans. No care to what exactly has actually been said.
As a Republican I do condemn this "attack" It serves no purpose and serves only to attempt to take Republicanism down the wrong path.
The days of armed resistance thankfully ended when the Provisionals stood down. Enough progress is being made politically to negate the need for armed actions at this time. Due to the actions of the Provisionals, the brits and unionist can no longer ignore the Nationalist people of this island. Now that they have been forced to listen, the armed war is over and it is time soley for political actions to take us forward to a united Ireland.

Fratton Fred

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

I'm pretty sure if you read back over Mussolini's posts, that's exactly what he thinks too.
Unfortunately it seems to be the case amonst most unionists to hear what they want to hear from Republicans. No care to what exactly has actually been said.
As a Republican I do condemn this "attack" It serves no purpose and serves only to attempt to take Republicanism down the wrong path.
The days of armed resistance thankfully ended when the Provisionals stood down. Enough progress is being made politically to negate the need for armed actions at this time. Due to the actions of the Provisionals, the brits and unionist can no longer ignore the Nationalist people of this island. Now that they have been forced to listen, the armed war is over and it is time soley for political actions to take us forward to a united Ireland.

And if you feel progress is not being made? If you are not getting your way, you are happy for the "armed resistance" to start again?

Tell me, how many innocent lives are you willing to sacrifice on order to get your wish? How many innocent lives is a united Ireland worth? Are you willing to sacrifice your own life or just the lives of others.

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And if you feel progress is not being made? If you are not getting your way, you are happy for the "armed resistance" to start again?

Tell me, how many innocent lives are you willing to sacrifice on order to get your wish? How many innocent lives is a united Ireland worth? Are you willing to sacrifice your own life or just the lives of others.

More sensationalist bollocks from you.

Where did he state anything about sacrificing innocent lives? You've just validated the only point that he wanted to make. Congratulations.

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

More sensationalist bollocks from you.

Where did he state anything about sacrificing innocent lives? You've just validated the only point that he wanted to make. Congratulations.

What does "Enough progress is being made politically to negate the need for armed actions at this time" or "Due to the actions of the Provisionals, the brits and unionist can no longer ignore the Nationalist people of this island."mean then?

I know you are their leader, but can these guys not think for themselves?

Notorious97

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What does "Enough progress is being made politically to negate the need for armed actions at this time" or "Due to the actions of the Provisionals, the brits and unionist can no longer ignore the Nationalist people of this island."mean then?

I know you are their leader, but can these guys not think for themselves?

To answer your questions Fred,

Due to actions of the provisional’s – before the troubles kicked off to the level it did, Catholics and Irish people in the 6 counties were treated like 2nd class citizens, poor housing conditions, poor job prospects, basically a poor quality of life which im sure you are aware of, London and indeed the powers the be within the protestant statelet were more than happy to let this continue and ignore their demands to be treated as equals within their own country. Bloody Sunday i think confirmed for everybody that they would not get civil rights without somebody taking a stand and fighting them, which the provisionals did throughout the troubles. I know i will get sucked back into do you condone bombings now but no i don’t, what i do think is that the present day peace and progress up north would not have been achieved by talking and asking for civil rights. I read a book by a former SAS guy name escapes me right now, but he said that the provos campaign was to simply shoot and bomb their way to the negotiating table which is what happened, and as a result of that war London sat up and listened to irish voices in NI finally.

Armed struggle at this time – We all know the armed struggle is over, the PIRA have themselves said this. Nobody wants a return to the violence of the past, im sure the poster wasn’t claiming people are gearing up for round two, even though the splinter groups would probably have us back in those days if they could. If people can see they are gaining from political structures and that there is progress being made, nobody should ever feel the need to use violence to achieve their aims again.

Not sure if thats a good enough answer for you though, but for the record yes i can think for myself

LordSutch

Notorious97 wrote: »

Due to actions of the provisional’s – before the troubles kicked off to the level it did, Catholics and Irish people in the 6 counties were treated like 2nd class citizens, poor housing conditions, poor job prospects, basically a poor quality of life which im sure you are aware of, London and indeed the powers the be within the protestant statelet were more than happy to let this continue and ignore their demands to be treated as equals within their own country.

Yeah, so the IRA embarked on a thirty five year murder fest, punctuated by 'spectaculars' oh yeah, they 'resisted' the Brits by murdering 1700 Irish & British people (approx), great guys the Provo's indeed, great defenders of the Irish people :rolleyes: Thankfully Provo sympathisers are very thin on the ground these days, most have grown up & accepted that murder is not the way forward, specially if you are murdering the very people you wish to Unite with (ie: the Orange/British-Irish & their culture)!

Notorious97

LordSutch wrote: »

Yeah, so the IRA embarked on a thirty five year murder fest, punctuated by 'spectaculars' oh yeah, they 'resisted' the Brits by murdering 1700 Irish & British people (approx), great guys the Provo's indeed, great defenders of the Irish people :rolleyes: Thankfully Provo sympathisers are very thin on the ground these days, most have grown up & accepted that murder is not the way forward, specially if you are murdering the very people you wish to Unite with (ie: the Orange/British-Irish & their culture)!

To be honest the Orange Order are sectarian and if they were not around anymore they would not be missed in my opinion, i don’t have problems with protestants, i see us as all rightful inhabitants on this island, i just think what the OO stand for is very sectarian. Obviously you get elements on the republican side of things who are very sectarian too and i don’t see a place for them either in a united Ireland. If you care to read the 1916 proclamation it is a document promoting equality for all people of this island.

You can call the provos murderers, i will call the SAS and BA, RUC, LVF, UVF, UDA murderers and terrorists too. Where does that get us though? Slag off the provos all you want though, but when the sh*t was hitting the fan for nationalists up north at the hand of the british, our mickey mouse ‘free state’ army and government done sweet fu*k all to help our own people within the 6 counties. More pressure could have been put on the british to rid the 6 counties of inequalities, but it wasn’t. Fact of the matter is the so called Republic of Ireland failed irish people in northern Ireland, as did the british government.

Thats how the provos came into being, thats why also. Was there alot done by both sides which was out of order? Yes, very much so. But it happened and i strongly believe that if this had not happened, we would not have nationalist being listened to as they are today. Thats just my view, i respect others on here with their views, but i don’t think i have made any crazy claims that people don’t already know.

mickydoomsux

Notorious97 wrote: »

Slag off the provos all you want though, but when the sh*t was hitting the fan for nationalists up north at the hand of the british, our mickey mouse ‘free state’ army and government done sweet fu*k all to help our own people within the 6 counties.

They weren't and still aren't 'our own people'. They live in Northern Ireland which is under British rule so therefore they are not Irish but rather Northern Irish or British.

If our army had gone up there to 'help' it would have been seen as an invasion which is an act of war that would have caused a retaliation that would have seen the rest of the country swallowed up by the British.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What does "Enough progress is being made politically to negate the need for armed actions at this time" or "Due to the actions of the Provisionals, the brits and unionist can no longer ignore the Nationalist people of this island."mean then?

I'd say it means what it says.

Btw, don't wring your hands near the keyboard, it makes terrible posts.

Notorious97

mickydoomsux wrote: »

They weren't and still aren't 'our own people'. They live in Northern Ireland which is under British rule so therefore they are not Irish but rather Northern Irish or British.

If our army had gone up there to 'help' it would have been seen as an invasion which is an act of war that would have caused a retaliation that would have seen the rest of the country swallowed up by the British.

Thats a ridiculous view, alot of people within northern Ireland claim to be irish and i am more than happy to have them as i see them as irish too. I do not claim all people within 6 counties to be irish, i respect some consider themselves british, so id appreciate if you lost the stupid view that they are all british when some claim to be irish.

I wasn’t demanding our army invade, as i said a mickey mouse army wouldn’t have overcome a british one, i was more stating that pressure could have been put on Britain to fix the problem instead of ignoring it. They propped up the powers that be within the 6 counties and allowed for the situation to occur that an armed struggle would take place. As i also mentioned had progress occurred through talking and marches, nobody would have had any reason to take up arms to the level that they did, but again this wasn’t the case. Im only giving my thoughts on it.

Edit - im actually sick of repeating myself at this stage so im not going to bother anymore