Urban Combatives!

Plastikman_eire

yomchi wrote: »

I'll post it again, I reckon this is pretty alive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfyL0b-vOd4&feature=related

That looks decent actually. Is a standard training method, or are those a bunch of hardcore lads?

yomchi

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

That looks decent actually. Is a standard training method, or are those a bunch of hardcore lads?

That's what UC training amounts to, those that want to put their skill to the test can do so in this environment. Generally those that participate in this type of training have been with Lee for some time and would be pretty capable.

So yeh it's standard at the upper end of UC training.

Sid_Justice

tallaght01 wrote: »

I still think boing/MMA are the best bets for sef defence, but they're not suitable for your average Joe, especially for people who aren't naturally tough. KM is good for the average punter off the street who wants to learn to strike and grapple a bit. But there' no magic bullet.

I disagree with this completely. From my limited experience of Krav/UC/RBSD they seem to rely on releasing some kind of primitive , animal and deeply inhumane attitudes/instincts in people to get them to gnarl and shout and act aggressively and kick people in the head or eye gouge. i don't the average joe is able to, unless pushed to the maximum limit, or wants to behave like this. So I don't think it's average Joes who get much out of the Krav but more the wally's who due to their own personal inadequacies seek to indulge their own violent fantasies.

With MMA on the other hand, with regular positive training any softly spoken, timid, quiet person can develop into a handy boxer/grappler.

tallaght01

Sid_Justice wrote: »

I disagree with this completely. From my limited experience of Krav/UC/RBSD they seem to rely on releasing some kind of primitive , animal and deeply inhumane attitudes/instincts in people to get them to gnarl and shout and act aggressively and kick people in the head or eye gouge. i don't the average joe is able to, unless pushed to the maximum limit, or wants to behave like this. So I don't think it's average Joes who get much out of the Krav but more the wally's who due to their own personal inadequacies seek to indulge their own violent fantasies.

With MMA on the other hand, with regular positive training any softly spoken, timid, quiet person can develop into a handy boxer/grappler.

In over 2 years of KM I've never ever learned an eye gouge, or a kick to the head.

KM classes are not populated by bloodthirsy maniacs. They're just normal people. I think I'm a normal, sensible bloke (but am open to correction). My closest friends who do KM are a teacher, a police PT instructor and a financial advisor. I can think of one bloke in my club who is a bit of a nutcase. It's just normal people.
Whereas when I did kenpo there were quite a few lunatics, including one bloke who used to seek out fights in the street to test out his skills (he was na excellent fighter, so he hurt quite a few people, under the illusion that they were starting fights with him-like Begby in train spotting). The instructor used to teach us stuff that would, frankly, land you in jail.

The thing about boxing and MMA is that they require a lot of training out of the gym, and a high level of fitness in order to do well. I've a busy as hell job, but can go along a few times a week to train and just have some fun. if I wanted to be a fighter I'd do boxing.

I think you have a very limited, and prejudiced, view of what KM is and who practices it.

Sid_Justice

Like If I could do Krav one day a week and get good at it because it's simple, why would I train MMA 5 times a week to try and achieve the same goal? What distinguishes Krav from MMA in your opinion (I presume you've never done MMA but use your imagination).

cletus

yomchi wrote: »

Why have to do it all again when you can just make sure he stays down?

Cause you can be done for assault

Doug Cartel

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Like If I could do Krav one day a week and get good at it because it's simple, why would I train MMA 5 times a week to try and achieve the same goal? What distinguishes Krav from MMA in your opinion (I presume you've never done MMA but use your imagination).

Krav is distinguished by it's principal of "Maximum easy for defender and maximum damage and effort for attacker".

I heard it on the internet.

cletus

must be true so...

tallaght01

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Like If I could do Krav one day a week and get good at it because it's simple, why would I train MMA 5 times a week to try and achieve the same goal? What distinguishes Krav from MMA in your opinion (I presume you've never done MMA but use your imagination).

But it's not the same goal. The aim of MMA is to produce a well rounded fighter. You do conditioning work, and you're piting yourself against your peers, and you try to keep pace with them.

When I train KM, I do so for a bit of craic. I want to get proficient at striking, and get used to a bit of sparring and taking a knock. I'd imagine a good MMA fighter would knock the mickey off me. That's because me, and most of the people in my club, are not aiming to be fighters.

That's the difference. MMA is about beating pretty fit, skilled opponents. KM for me is, at most, about getting out of a bad situation with me balls intact.

Having said that, I think MMA is just an excuse for people to have a rumble. I think it's an awful sport. Won't be a popular opinion on here, but I know a lot of TMA people share that view.

tallaght01

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Krav is distinguished by it's principal of "Maximum easy for defender and maximum damage and effort for attacker".

I heard it on the internet.

wow, Doug Cartel in wanky-comment-with-no-substance-designed-only-to-troll shocker.

cletus

tallaght01 wrote: »

But it's not the same goal. The aim of MMA is to produce a well rounded fighter. You do conditioning work, and you're piting yourself against your peers, and you try to keep pace with them.

When I train KM, I do so for a bit of craic. I want to get proficient at striking, and get used to a bit of sparring and taking a knock. I'd imagine a good MMA fighter would knock the mickey off me. That's because me, and most of the people in my club, are not aiming to be fighters.

That's the difference. MMA is about beating pretty fit, skilled opponents. KM for me is, at most, about getting out of a bad situation with me balls intact.

Having said that, I think MMA is just an excuse for people to have a rumble. I think it's an awful sport. Won't be a popular opinion on here, but I know a lot of TMA people share that view.

With regards to the start of your post, surely if an mma guy can beat up a skilled opponent, he can beat up whoever it is you are training for, ergo mma does what km purports to do, only better.

With regards to

Having said that, I think MMA is just an excuse for people to have a rumble.

That surely comes under the heading of "wanky comment"

tallaght01

cletus wrote: »

With regards to the start of your post, surely if an mma guy can beat up a skilled opponent, he can beat up whoever it is you are training for, ergo mma does what km purports to do, only better.

With regards to


That surely comes under the heading of "wanky comment"

A) I said above I think MMA is better for self defence than KM or combatives.

I gave a reason for why I don't like MMA. I do think it's an excuse for a rumble. But that's what it is, in my opinion. There's a difference between making wanky comments and giving an opinion that involves taking the piss with someone, as Doug was taking the piss with the OP of the KM thread. I wasn't taking the piss with anyone.

Dyr

cletus wrote: »

With regards to the start of your post, surely if an mma guy can beat up a skilled opponent, he can beat up whoever it is you are training for, ergo mma does what km purports to do, only better.

With regards to

the assumption that self defence is primarily about beating up people would be flawed. If i was worried about self defence I'd probably look into people like the urban combatives fella before I'd try an MMA club.

cletus

tallaght01 wrote: »

I still think boing/MMA are the best bets for sef defence, but they're not suitable for your average Joe, especially for people who aren't naturally tough.

Ah, yes you did, but theres a flaw in your reasoning, namely, this

but they're not suitable for your average Joe

I would consider myself to be the ultimate average joe (should that be average average joe?) Anyway. I train(ed) bjj and mma for the fun of it, much as you and km, I didnt need to be especially tough, although you do toughen up, nor am i in the gym working out 7 days a week, yet I could hold my own againt all the other "weekend warriors", for want of a better phrase, and did as well as could be expected against the guys who competed regularly. I have faith, then that i could reasonably expect to hold my own if confronted by a drunk guy on the street, and it seems, against guyswho do krav as well

and i wasn't looking looking for a rumble, and yes, your statement was wanky, because your opinion was built on your perceptions of other people goals, without any actual knowledge of them

cletus

Bambi wrote: »

the assumption that self defence is primarily about beating up people would be flawed. If i was worried about self defence I'd probably look into people like the urban combatives fella before I'd try an MMA club.

I have no assumption really about self defence, I dont, and never have trained for it, I was simply following on from tallagh01's comments

tallaght01

cletus wrote: »

Ah, yes you did, but theres a flaw in your reasoning, namely, this



I would consider myself to be the ultimate average joe (should that be average average joe?) Anyway. I train(ed) bjj and mma for the fun of it, much as you and km, I didnt need to be especially tough, although you do toughen up, nor am i in the gym working out 7 days a week, yet I could hold my own againt all the other "weekend warriors", for want of a better phrase, and did as well as could be expected against the guys who competed regularly. I have faith, then that i could reasonably expect to hold my own if confronted by a drunk guy on the street, and it seems, against guyswho do krav as well

and i wasn't looking looking for a rumble, and yes, your statement was wanky, because your opinion was built on your perceptions of other people goals, without any actual knowledge of them

Look, I don't know you, but I think it's safe to say that you want to fight if you do MMA. I'm not saying you're going looking for streetfights or whatever. But you go to MMA to learn to fight. Whereas in KM there are people who don't spar because they don't want to. There are people who never do anything for fitness outside classes, and most people never do any conditioning.
My point is that those type of people wouldn't suit MMA. I could be wrong, but everyone I know who does well MMA is quite fit, reasonably tough and relishes a fight (in the ring). I definitely can't say that same for people who do KM.

There's a major difference between a wanky comment designed to take the piss out of someone, and fair comment based on reasonably well informed opinion.

cletus

I hate to speak for other people, but I dont think any of the guys i trained with were looking for a rumble, so I dont think it was in the least a reasonably well informed opinion.

Yes most of them would be tough, in the same way a guy who plays rugby is tough, they take knocks. If your doing km and not taking knocks, what happens the first time you actually take a thump?

Just for the record, I am a school teacher, and I have only ever fought in the mma league, but I love training mma

tallaght01

cletus wrote: »

I hate to speak for other people, but I dont think any of the guys i trained with were looking for a rumble,

You don't know anyone who does MMA to fight? Seriously?

We can agree to disagree as I'm done here, as it's all getting a bit silly. I don't believe you for a second though :P

cletus

looks like I'm battling you on two fronts (or at least two threads ). look, I wouldn't equate taking an mma bout with having a rumble. when I hear that word I think of 2.30 am outside supermac's

so maybe its a matter of semantics?

anyway its only the internet

RearNakedJim

tallaght01 wrote: »

I don't know you, but I think it's safe to say that you want to fight if you do MMA.

tallaght01 wrote: »

IYou don't know anyone who does MMA to fight? Seriously?

In coaching the UCD MMA club over the last 3 years i would say at most 10% of my members wanted to "fight" mma. That’s coaching about 60 different people with 4 or 5 competing in the amateur mma league and 1 who is now fighting at amateur on MMA shows.

pma-ire

yomchi wrote: »

And what experience have you in the security or LEO industry to make that claim?

i worked in clubs and pubs on the door for a time. back when you might get away with some of this.

yomchi wrote: »

And are you suggesting that there is a right way and a wrong way to defend yourself? Don't you advocate the use of sticks? or will you say you should block an oncoming attack first?

the stuff in the clip is fine for just casual training, messing about and or even just to get the buzz of being in the attack. i train using sticks partly as an art form and partly for hand-eye coordination.

i would'int tell people to go out and carry a weapon for any reason. if something became available to be used for self defence that is similar then fine.

also, when you are defending yourself you have to be aware of the law in relation to that act of defence (yes i have been working with people that are professionally involved in this side of personal safety training). much of what is shown in martial arts and RBSD (not just lee's system) can get someone in big trouble if all the techniques are followed to the end of a trained sequence without being aware of where to back off and what level of responce would be correct in accordance to the level of the threat etc.

imagine someone got into a scrap with someone and they done a bit of damage to the attacker. then the attacker found out that they had trained with lee or his licensed instructors, they could use videos such as the original one tim posted as grounds for a case against not only the defender, but lee and all associated persons that had trained that person.

Niall Keane

Like If I could do Krav one day a week and get good at it because it's simple, why would I train MMA 5 times a week to try and achieve the same goal? What distinguishes Krav from MMA in your opinion (I presume you've never done MMA but use your imagination).

I guess that would be sport illegal techniques Sid?, the fallacy goes that they must be banned because they are dangerous (true) and can take someone out instantly (false). Take the famous eye-gouge, kick in the balls or biting techniques, not used in sport because they can cause irreversible damage to an athlete, and we all respect that. Personally I have fought through rounds with broken ribs, toes, and a hand once from punching and once with a cracked cheek bone from the second of three - three minute rounds, I won that fight. My coach won a European by stopping his opponent in the second round despite having has three of his teeth smashed in the early part of the round. So what do you think will happen if a km dude miraculously develops range, angle and timing skills and pulls off a strike to the eyes?

Remember a lot of violent individuals are that way because they are used to having seven shades kicked into them and accepting violence as a natural part of everyday life, at times something to be sought out, something with entertainment value.

There are environments in this country where violence is a fact of life, you’re reared on it, to back down only marks you out as an easy victim, better to fight back and lose, and so establish that you’re not an easy mark. It develops enviable kung-fu skills such as the infamous “Oliver Bond Iron Shirt” My guess is, however, that the middle class suburban housewife or office worker that is trained to carry out “maximum damage” moves aren’t really up for receiving the same amount of pain and violence themselves? And I can count on one hand the number of fights I’ve seen ended without the winner receiving blows. I think this is why martial artists with full contact experience take issue with some of the km claims?

BTW all combat sport athletes here will probably verify my experience in running into tools in the ring who do use illegal techniques, eye-gouging during sprawls, aiming kicks at the groin all the stuff that is supposed to make RBSD different. When this happened to me on the Lei Tai, and now when it happens to my students as I have forewarned and advised them, I retaliated with other illegal techniques, goring them with elbows and knees, spiking them “accidently” with throws, and suffocating with the glove. Anyone with any ring mileage has seen it all, and knows how to deal with it, but we also know that the attacker doesn’t freeze once his technique has been redirected, he recovers and retaliates, it’s painful to watch someone think otherwise.

So back on topic, I’ve never had a UC guy claim that what he does is the most advanced martial system in the world, used by the combat elite, even a pinch of an understanding of it can take out the Joker and other hardened criminals. It’s scientifically tested methods are too dangerous to be used in the ring implying fight sports are really inefficient, outdated relics, taking years to become good enough and powerful enough to be of any use, that any system that engages in combat sports e.g. Muay Thai etc. is therefore limited to ring rules. But it seems that this is km’s jingle?

BTW what’s with the rock music used to “spar”, run a gauntlet etc.? What happens if there is no music to make you go ape-**** when you need to?:D

corkma

when it comes to the legality of the "brutal" techniques its important to look at who'll be judging u. Martial artists have a greater understanding of the danger of a decent punch than the average person. what u perceive to be a serious threat may not matter to the judge who's never been in as fight in his life and considers elbows knees and head stomps to be barbaric. its important to remember this when training.

On the combatives/KM vs sport training, I've always been less suspicious of the sports gyms.
the sport option seems to usually be cheaper and more honest. I also think if u can spar with decent athletes, you can land a decent punch on a thug

Baggio...

Hi there,
my name is Lee Morrison, I am what UC is all about and I can tell you that what you see in some of the scenario training clips is depicted to show the Combatives skill sets applied under non-compliant conditions. This is just a small part of our training, used to see how we can apply our said Hard Skills under duress.

The primary function of our training relates to Personal Security and non-physical options, this relates to avoidance, escape and de-esculation as a primary objective, these are our Soft Skills.

As anyone in the know, should know any good Self Protection curricullum should focus on two key elements namely; the said Soft skills geared toward avoiding violent confrontation in the first place and our Combative tools or Hard skills, which should be gross-motor in nature as the physical part of the equation, employed should our personal security fail...

Now here's the thing, as most people who know me or have actually trained with me, will tell you, Combatives is geared towards the extreme end of the Self-Protection scale, this is not basic self-defence practiced at your local leisure center incorporating break away techniques with a stiff tone of voice...

We train for the worse event scenario, where the violence volume dial is set for ten. You know the one, the chav, crack head who wants to put a screw driver in your heart, while his mates kick your head like a coke can filming it on their mobile phone for a giggle later.

Now if I meet a ten in the street I've got a shot, but if I train a seven and meet ten i'm f##ked, but conversely to that if I train for ten and meet a seven, I can always lower the tone as they say. Like I say we train for the worst eventuality. If that offends you, please don't feel compelled to watch my clips or visit my website.

All I suggest is get all the facts for a bigger picture first, then make your decision, assumption, opinion of me or UC.

In terms of kicking a floored subject, I'd say it depends; if my starter for ten drops the threat, whereby he's knocked out, knocked down or demonstrate-ably no longer wants any part of what he's created, then fine, i'm gone.

For civilian SP we advocate only doing what's necessary to facilitate an escape, or prevent the subject from injurying us further.

But if he's floored and grabs my leg whilst accessing a screwdriver to pump repeatedly into my femoral whilst I seek my retreat, then f##k yeah i'm following up, with whatever means necessary. Force to threat parallel and all that.

Anyway I always find it amusing how it takes just one little keyboard Commando to set the ball of debate rolling for the rest of you. We're 4 pages in and still no further comment from Tim Murphy ( : yet anyway.

All I can say is I'm sorry if the way I teach offends you, but I believe in education before assumption in order to avoid the mother of all f##k ups, so here's the deal;

I am teaching in Kildare tomorrow and Wexford on Sunday and am in Dublin on Monday please accept my hospitality in the form of a free invite to any of the said events to see first hand, gain hands on experience, test what you already know and open your mind to new knowledge.

In short please visit and work out for yourself if what I teach is worth paying for, I believe there's even free tea and a light lunch ( :

Peace....

corkma

I agree with a lot of what your saying. What are your thoughts on reality courses vs normal club? Im admitting my own ignorance, I've never trained in a "self protection" club, this is a genuine question and not a criticism. Reading what instructors like morrisson and thompson have to say has made me change the way I train. However, I've never trained in these types of systems. My main reason has been a preference for training a few times a week with a club rather than going to seminars.

Tehol

It's my belief that you won't find trouble if you don't look for it. You find yourself in a situation where you need to use this kind of stuff you could just be very unlucky. If it happens again then you are obviously somewhere you shouldn't be or doing something that you shouldn't be doing. Just save your money and stay out of trouble.;)

Tim_Murphy

yomchi wrote: »

LOL Tim, 5.30am and your up searching this stuff out?

It wasn't 5:30 where I was at the time dude.

Baggio wrote:

Hi there,
my name is Lee Morrison,

So Rob and Lee are actually the same person?! :eek:

Anyway I always find it amusing how it takes just one little keyboard Commando to set the ball of debate rolling for the rest of you. We're 4 pages in and still no further comment from Tim Murphy ( : yet anyway.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha I haven't been on a computer since I created the thread. Anyway, I only asked a question.

Look at the end of the day if people want to do role play then more power to them I say, whatever you are into. There's probably healthier subjects to focus on than kicking peoples heads into the ground but that's your own business.

Tim_Murphy

tallaght01 wrote: »

Look, I don't know you, but I think it's safe to say that you want to fight if you do MMA. I'm not saying you're going looking for streetfights or whatever. But you go to MMA to learn to fight.

Of all the people I've come across training in MMA gyms the vast majority never compete (or rumble outside Supermacs! :pac:). The majority of those that do compete will only do so at amateur level.

tallaght01 wrote: »

Whereas in KM there are people who don't spar because they don't want to. There are people who never do anything for fitness outside classes, and most people never do any conditioning.

Well people might want to learn how to swim without getting wet but it's not going to happen. TBH I've come across the type of people you are talking about and to be honest they are the ones who would probably benefit most from training in a good MMA/combat sport gym.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Baggio... wrote: »

I am teaching in Kildare tomorrow and Wexford on Sunday and am in Dublin on Monday please accept my hospitality in the form of a free invite to any of the said events to see first hand, gain hands on experience, test what you already know and open your mind to new knowledge.

In short please visit and work out for yourself if what I teach is worth paying for, I believe there's even free tea and a light lunch ( :

Peace....

Tell you what, I'd genuinely like to tag along on Monday in Dublin and have a look at whats on offer!.

Baggio...

Hello (It's me Rob this time).

Hey Makikomi drop me a line any time.

I take it Tim wont be down tho'.

Cheers,

Rob.