Urban Combatives!

Tim_Murphy

To those in the know, if this an accurate look at what Urban Combatives is about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-WS09dneHs&feature=player_embedded

Do people really pay money for this?

pma-ire

not looking to blow out anybody's candle. but a fair bit of this stuff will get you in deep doo doo if you were to use it to defend yourself in either the security or LEO environment or in civilian defence.

mark.leonard

Looks like some Dark Knight wannabe

arybvtcw0eolkf

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

To those in the know, if this an accurate look at what Urban Combatives is about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-WS09dneHs&feature=player_embedded

Do people really pay money for this?

Of course people pay money for it, stop riling 'em up ffs Tim :rolleyes:

Ug Lee

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

To those in the know, if this an accurate look at what Urban Combatives is about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-WS09dneHs&feature=player_embedded

Do people really pay money for this?

I think it looks pretty good and I would pay money for this.

ehunt3_14

I'm pretty sure that one of the guy's who posts here, Rob, is featured prominently at the start of that vid. He's a great guy and very good to train with.

yomchi

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

To those in the know, if this an accurate look at what Urban Combatives is about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-WS09dneHs&feature=player_embedded

Do people really pay money for this?

LOL Tim, 5.30am and your up searching this stuff out?

No, nobody pays money for that Tim. That's a wee advertisement video covering some scenarios, that's all mate.

not looking to blow out anybody's candle. but a fair bit of this stuff will get you in deep doo doo if you were to use it to defend yourself in either the security or LEO environment or in civilian defence.

Don't worry Paulo, your candle was blew out years ago :P joking aside, why? And what experience have you in the security or LEO industry to make that claim?
And are you suggesting that there is a right way and a wrong way to defend yourself? Don't you advocate the use of sticks? or will you say you should block an oncoming attack first?

Plastikman_eire

yomchi wrote: »

Don't worry Paulo, your candle was blew out years ago :P joking aside, why? And what experience have you in the security or LEO industry to make that claim?
And are you suggesting that there is a right way and a wrong way to defend yourself? Don't you advocate the use of sticks? or will you say you should block an oncoming attack first?

No I think he's saying that if you "defend" yourself in the manner shown in the vids then you are getting done for assault.

yomchi

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

No I think he's saying that if you "defend" yourself in the manner shown in the vids then you are getting done for assault.

Maybe that's what he means. We'll see what he says, if he says that though, I'll ask - what would you suggest?

Bear in mind again, this is an advertisement not a training video although there are some clips of training in there including a clip similar to Crazy Monkey defence.

Plastikman_eire

yomchi wrote: »

, I'll ask - what would you suggest?

.

Not stomping the head of a downed opponent for a start?

Dyr

Looks like whats i see from my living room window every weekend. Good stuff.

yomchi

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

Not stomping the head of a downed opponent for a start?

Well level of threat and all that. But there is no stomping on heads in that video. Stomping on limbs maybe, but not the head.

flynny51

yomchi wrote: »

Well level of threat and all that. But there is no stomping on heads in that video. Stomping on limbs maybe, but not the head.

Pretty sure I did see one.

yomchi

flynny51 wrote: »

Pretty sure I did see one.

Where?

flynny51

yomchi wrote: »

Where?

Had a look again, at 1.27. heh heh it's actually a bit of a dinky stomp to the upper back / neck. Then he looks around to see did anyone see him before legs it.

cletus

As far as I'm aware, pretty much any strike, including a stomp to the body or head, to a downed "opponent" is a no-no for self defence. Once you do this you have now become the aggressor. When the guy is on the ground its time to run away, not stomp him into a puddle

yomchi

cletus wrote: »

As far as I'm aware, pretty much any strike, including a stomp to the body or head, is a no-no for self defence. Once you do this you have now become the aggressor. When the guy is on the ground its time to run away, not stomp him into a puddle

Again, level of threat dictates the level of response. When the guy is on the ground, who's to say he'll not get up and run after you. But having said that stomping on the head is something I wouldn't advocate.

yomchi

flynny51 wrote: »

Had a look again, at 1.27. heh heh it's actually a bit of a dinky stomp to the upper back / neck. Then he looks around to see did anyone see him before legs it.

LOL, ok it's a dinky stomp now as opposed to a stomp on the head. LOL he's looking around to see if anyone saw him do it LOL No that's not what he's doing, he maybe just checking for further threats to the situation.

flynny51

yomchi wrote: »

LOL, ok it's a dinky stomp now as opposed to a stomp on the head. LOL he's looking around to see if anyone saw him do it LOL

Well he's hardly going to do a full force stomp in practice. At least not when there's video evidence anyway

yomchi

flynny51 wrote: »

Well he's hardly going to do a full force stomp in practice. At least not when there's video evidence anyway

LOL

tallaght01

I'm no lawyer, but I reckon if you boot someone in the back of the neck when they're down on the street, then you're gonna have a hard time justifying it.

But if you're in your house, and you find some armed crazed rapist in your bedroom, then I imagine you'd be on safer territory. But kicks in the head are so dangerous, and it's risky territory either way.

Plastikman_eire

flynny51 wrote: »

Well he's hardly going to do a full force stomp in practice. At least not when there's video evidence anyway

Which in a nut shell is why I'll always doubt the effectivness of systems like this or KM. To rip of SGB's term, they arent, and can't, be trained with "aliveness"

If stuff like that isnt committed to muscle memory, you arent gonna do it in a real situation

cletus

yomchi wrote: »

Again, level of threat dictates the level of response. When the guy is on the ground, who's to say he'll not get up and run after you. But having said that stomping on the head is something I wouldn't advocate.

If he gets up and runs after you, you can defend yourself again, but self defence only allows for you to do the minimum necessary to escape from the situation

Stomping on the guy when he is no longer an immediate threat, ie on the ground, is not self defence

Doug Cartel

I don't think it's even a case of muscle memory. I think a big part of it is that it doesn't give you a sense of how people will really react to your strikes. In these videos, it's always one gut shot and the guy is down or at least covering and making no attempt to regain the initiative.

What happens when your initial strike/gouge doesn't land flush, or the guy just shrugs it off, or you clock him but as you follow up he initiates a clinch and drags you down? You only learn to deal with these things properly by actually doing them.

I know some places do train with an element of realism, doing sessions where they sacrifice deadly techniques for the ability to train full force, but it seems to be a total crap shoot as to which places do this and which ones don't.

tallaght01

The problem with KM is that so many people are teaching it. There's countless clubs in Ireland, whereas I only know of 2 that are IKMF clubs.

There's nothing stopping anyone setting up a "krav maga" club, just as there's nothing stopping me setting up a taekwondo club.

If you train with an IKMF club, you'll spar hard once you're safe. and you'll test your techniques under reasonable pressure, with the protective gear etc. Not much different to other martial arts.

I still think boing/MMA are the best bets for sef defence, but they're not suitable for your average Joe, especially for people who aren't naturally tough. KM is good for the average punter off the street who wants to learn to strike and grapple a bit. But there' no magic bullet.

But the IKMF i the home of KM and is the only way to go. A notable eception would be the club that;s the subject of the current KM thread on this forum. It' an excellent club, if a bot hardcore for many people.

yomchi

cletus wrote: »

If he gets up and runs after you, you can defend yourself again, but self defence only allows for you to do the minimum necessary to escape from the situation

Stomping on the guy when he is no longer an immediate threat, ie on the ground, is not self defence

Why have to do it all again when you can just make sure he stays down?

As I said at the start that's an advertisement in that clip. Here is some of the training that is done, as you can see it's not pretty, it's not always accurate, but it provides options for those that may need to handle situations like this in their jobs etc or for those that just want to do it to experience it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfyL0b-vOd4&feature=related

yomchi

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

Which in a nut shell is why I'll always doubt the effectivness of systems like this or KM. To rip of SGB's term, they arent, and can't, be trained with "aliveness"

If stuff like that isnt committed to muscle memory, you arent gonna do it in a real situation

I'll post it again, I reckon this is pretty alive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfyL0b-vOd4&feature=related

tallaght01

yomchi wrote: »

Why have to do it all again when you can just make sure he stays down?

As I said at the start that's an advertisement in that clip. Here is some of the training that is done, as you can see it's not pretty, it's not always accurate, but it provides options for those that may need to handle situations like this in their jobs etc or for those that just want to do it to experience it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfyL0b-vOd4&feature=related

I quite like that video for the most part actually. But, honestly, there's wayy too much kicking people in the head when they're down. I think you're potentially in some dodgy territory there.

yomchi

tallaght01 wrote: »

I quite like that video for the most part actually. But, honestly, there's wayy too much kicking people in the head when they're down. I think you're potentially in some dodgy territory there.

Sure, I could agree with that

mark.leonard

I blame Tim Murphy for all of this!

yomchi

mark.leonard wrote: »

I blame Tim Murphy for all of this!

I think we're used to Tim around these parts!

I can picture him now...

Plastikman_eire

yomchi wrote: »

I'll post it again, I reckon this is pretty alive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfyL0b-vOd4&feature=related

That looks decent actually. Is a standard training method, or are those a bunch of hardcore lads?

yomchi

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

That looks decent actually. Is a standard training method, or are those a bunch of hardcore lads?

That's what UC training amounts to, those that want to put their skill to the test can do so in this environment. Generally those that participate in this type of training have been with Lee for some time and would be pretty capable.

So yeh it's standard at the upper end of UC training.

Sid_Justice

tallaght01 wrote: »

I still think boing/MMA are the best bets for sef defence, but they're not suitable for your average Joe, especially for people who aren't naturally tough. KM is good for the average punter off the street who wants to learn to strike and grapple a bit. But there' no magic bullet.

I disagree with this completely. From my limited experience of Krav/UC/RBSD they seem to rely on releasing some kind of primitive , animal and deeply inhumane attitudes/instincts in people to get them to gnarl and shout and act aggressively and kick people in the head or eye gouge. i don't the average joe is able to, unless pushed to the maximum limit, or wants to behave like this. So I don't think it's average Joes who get much out of the Krav but more the wally's who due to their own personal inadequacies seek to indulge their own violent fantasies.

With MMA on the other hand, with regular positive training any softly spoken, timid, quiet person can develop into a handy boxer/grappler.

tallaght01

Sid_Justice wrote: »

I disagree with this completely. From my limited experience of Krav/UC/RBSD they seem to rely on releasing some kind of primitive , animal and deeply inhumane attitudes/instincts in people to get them to gnarl and shout and act aggressively and kick people in the head or eye gouge. i don't the average joe is able to, unless pushed to the maximum limit, or wants to behave like this. So I don't think it's average Joes who get much out of the Krav but more the wally's who due to their own personal inadequacies seek to indulge their own violent fantasies.

With MMA on the other hand, with regular positive training any softly spoken, timid, quiet person can develop into a handy boxer/grappler.

In over 2 years of KM I've never ever learned an eye gouge, or a kick to the head.

KM classes are not populated by bloodthirsy maniacs. They're just normal people. I think I'm a normal, sensible bloke (but am open to correction). My closest friends who do KM are a teacher, a police PT instructor and a financial advisor. I can think of one bloke in my club who is a bit of a nutcase. It's just normal people.
Whereas when I did kenpo there were quite a few lunatics, including one bloke who used to seek out fights in the street to test out his skills (he was na excellent fighter, so he hurt quite a few people, under the illusion that they were starting fights with him-like Begby in train spotting). The instructor used to teach us stuff that would, frankly, land you in jail.

The thing about boxing and MMA is that they require a lot of training out of the gym, and a high level of fitness in order to do well. I've a busy as hell job, but can go along a few times a week to train and just have some fun. if I wanted to be a fighter I'd do boxing.

I think you have a very limited, and prejudiced, view of what KM is and who practices it.

Sid_Justice

Like If I could do Krav one day a week and get good at it because it's simple, why would I train MMA 5 times a week to try and achieve the same goal? What distinguishes Krav from MMA in your opinion (I presume you've never done MMA but use your imagination).

cletus

yomchi wrote: »

Why have to do it all again when you can just make sure he stays down?

Cause you can be done for assault

Doug Cartel

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Like If I could do Krav one day a week and get good at it because it's simple, why would I train MMA 5 times a week to try and achieve the same goal? What distinguishes Krav from MMA in your opinion (I presume you've never done MMA but use your imagination).

Krav is distinguished by it's principal of "Maximum easy for defender and maximum damage and effort for attacker".

I heard it on the internet.

cletus

must be true so...

tallaght01

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Like If I could do Krav one day a week and get good at it because it's simple, why would I train MMA 5 times a week to try and achieve the same goal? What distinguishes Krav from MMA in your opinion (I presume you've never done MMA but use your imagination).

But it's not the same goal. The aim of MMA is to produce a well rounded fighter. You do conditioning work, and you're piting yourself against your peers, and you try to keep pace with them.

When I train KM, I do so for a bit of craic. I want to get proficient at striking, and get used to a bit of sparring and taking a knock. I'd imagine a good MMA fighter would knock the mickey off me. That's because me, and most of the people in my club, are not aiming to be fighters.

That's the difference. MMA is about beating pretty fit, skilled opponents. KM for me is, at most, about getting out of a bad situation with me balls intact.

Having said that, I think MMA is just an excuse for people to have a rumble. I think it's an awful sport. Won't be a popular opinion on here, but I know a lot of TMA people share that view.

tallaght01

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Krav is distinguished by it's principal of "Maximum easy for defender and maximum damage and effort for attacker".

I heard it on the internet.

wow, Doug Cartel in wanky-comment-with-no-substance-designed-only-to-troll shocker.

cletus

tallaght01 wrote: »

But it's not the same goal. The aim of MMA is to produce a well rounded fighter. You do conditioning work, and you're piting yourself against your peers, and you try to keep pace with them.

When I train KM, I do so for a bit of craic. I want to get proficient at striking, and get used to a bit of sparring and taking a knock. I'd imagine a good MMA fighter would knock the mickey off me. That's because me, and most of the people in my club, are not aiming to be fighters.

That's the difference. MMA is about beating pretty fit, skilled opponents. KM for me is, at most, about getting out of a bad situation with me balls intact.

Having said that, I think MMA is just an excuse for people to have a rumble. I think it's an awful sport. Won't be a popular opinion on here, but I know a lot of TMA people share that view.

With regards to the start of your post, surely if an mma guy can beat up a skilled opponent, he can beat up whoever it is you are training for, ergo mma does what km purports to do, only better.

With regards to

Having said that, I think MMA is just an excuse for people to have a rumble.

That surely comes under the heading of "wanky comment"

tallaght01

cletus wrote: »

With regards to the start of your post, surely if an mma guy can beat up a skilled opponent, he can beat up whoever it is you are training for, ergo mma does what km purports to do, only better.

With regards to


That surely comes under the heading of "wanky comment"

A) I said above I think MMA is better for self defence than KM or combatives.

I gave a reason for why I don't like MMA. I do think it's an excuse for a rumble. But that's what it is, in my opinion. There's a difference between making wanky comments and giving an opinion that involves taking the piss with someone, as Doug was taking the piss with the OP of the KM thread. I wasn't taking the piss with anyone.

Dyr

cletus wrote: »

With regards to the start of your post, surely if an mma guy can beat up a skilled opponent, he can beat up whoever it is you are training for, ergo mma does what km purports to do, only better.

With regards to

the assumption that self defence is primarily about beating up people would be flawed. If i was worried about self defence I'd probably look into people like the urban combatives fella before I'd try an MMA club.

cletus

tallaght01 wrote: »

I still think boing/MMA are the best bets for sef defence, but they're not suitable for your average Joe, especially for people who aren't naturally tough.

Ah, yes you did, but theres a flaw in your reasoning, namely, this

but they're not suitable for your average Joe

I would consider myself to be the ultimate average joe (should that be average average joe?) Anyway. I train(ed) bjj and mma for the fun of it, much as you and km, I didnt need to be especially tough, although you do toughen up, nor am i in the gym working out 7 days a week, yet I could hold my own againt all the other "weekend warriors", for want of a better phrase, and did as well as could be expected against the guys who competed regularly. I have faith, then that i could reasonably expect to hold my own if confronted by a drunk guy on the street, and it seems, against guyswho do krav as well

and i wasn't looking looking for a rumble, and yes, your statement was wanky, because your opinion was built on your perceptions of other people goals, without any actual knowledge of them

cletus

Bambi wrote: »

the assumption that self defence is primarily about beating up people would be flawed. If i was worried about self defence I'd probably look into people like the urban combatives fella before I'd try an MMA club.

I have no assumption really about self defence, I dont, and never have trained for it, I was simply following on from tallagh01's comments

tallaght01

cletus wrote: »

Ah, yes you did, but theres a flaw in your reasoning, namely, this



I would consider myself to be the ultimate average joe (should that be average average joe?) Anyway. I train(ed) bjj and mma for the fun of it, much as you and km, I didnt need to be especially tough, although you do toughen up, nor am i in the gym working out 7 days a week, yet I could hold my own againt all the other "weekend warriors", for want of a better phrase, and did as well as could be expected against the guys who competed regularly. I have faith, then that i could reasonably expect to hold my own if confronted by a drunk guy on the street, and it seems, against guyswho do krav as well

and i wasn't looking looking for a rumble, and yes, your statement was wanky, because your opinion was built on your perceptions of other people goals, without any actual knowledge of them

Look, I don't know you, but I think it's safe to say that you want to fight if you do MMA. I'm not saying you're going looking for streetfights or whatever. But you go to MMA to learn to fight. Whereas in KM there are people who don't spar because they don't want to. There are people who never do anything for fitness outside classes, and most people never do any conditioning.
My point is that those type of people wouldn't suit MMA. I could be wrong, but everyone I know who does well MMA is quite fit, reasonably tough and relishes a fight (in the ring). I definitely can't say that same for people who do KM.

There's a major difference between a wanky comment designed to take the piss out of someone, and fair comment based on reasonably well informed opinion.

cletus

I hate to speak for other people, but I dont think any of the guys i trained with were looking for a rumble, so I dont think it was in the least a reasonably well informed opinion.

Yes most of them would be tough, in the same way a guy who plays rugby is tough, they take knocks. If your doing km and not taking knocks, what happens the first time you actually take a thump?

Just for the record, I am a school teacher, and I have only ever fought in the mma league, but I love training mma

tallaght01

cletus wrote: »

I hate to speak for other people, but I dont think any of the guys i trained with were looking for a rumble,

You don't know anyone who does MMA to fight? Seriously?

We can agree to disagree as I'm done here, as it's all getting a bit silly. I don't believe you for a second though :P

cletus

looks like I'm battling you on two fronts (or at least two threads ). look, I wouldn't equate taking an mma bout with having a rumble. when I hear that word I think of 2.30 am outside supermac's

so maybe its a matter of semantics?

anyway its only the internet

RearNakedJim

tallaght01 wrote: »

I don't know you, but I think it's safe to say that you want to fight if you do MMA.

tallaght01 wrote: »

IYou don't know anyone who does MMA to fight? Seriously?

In coaching the UCD MMA club over the last 3 years i would say at most 10% of my members wanted to "fight" mma. That’s coaching about 60 different people with 4 or 5 competing in the amateur mma league and 1 who is now fighting at amateur on MMA shows.