Lissadell -end of the struggle?

Essexboy

This was always a divisive subject in past posts but the house is back in the news for new reasons.

The owners closed the place saying "This action by Sligo County Council makes it impossible to operate Lissadell either as a historic house or indeed a private home for reasons of public health and safety, insurance and, not least, the simple matter of security both for our family and the thousands of visitors to Lissadell, a large proportion of whom are children and the elderly" http://www.lissadellhouse.com/statement.html
BUT
"Hundreds flock to reopened Lissadell" http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0809/1224276419394.html

What happened to the health and safety considerations? Have the owners quietly conceded defeat or, are they so confident of winning that they feel they can safely open again?

UrbanSea

I'm sure alot of consideration and planning went into re-opening,and I'm sure it wasn't taken lightly,they probably worked with the CC or other authorities before opening,behind the scenes.

Gipo3

Hopefully the ruling will be in their favour so Lissadell can be open full-time and bring tourists to Sligo. Its so daft to hear councillors on the radio going on about funding from the tourist board when they have closed the biggest asset to tourism in the county.

mountainy man

I am delighted to hear that they have reopened , I am full of admiration for the new owners regarding all the work they have put into their project , I have visited quite a few times both before they took it on and after and love the place especially the gardens they are inspiring and beautifull. I hope the right of way issues can be sorted out soon as both parties really need to deal with each other amicably to improve the tourism in the county . I hope lissadell goes from strength to strength as our only historical house and gardens available to visit in the area , I will be returning next week , I am a garden addict and need a fix.:D

Truley

mountainy man wrote: »

I will be returning next week , I am a garden addict and need a fix.:D

Yeah I've heard great things about their gardens, am dying to see them! Fair play to the owners I say, I have alot of admiration for them and the work they've put in with virtually no support from the CC.

magnumlady

I'm delighted they have re-opened, the gardens really are lovely.
I took a few photos last year:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/magnumlady/sets/72157622019349150/

T runner

Truley wrote: »

Yeah I've heard great things about their gardens, am dying to see them! Fair play to the owners I say, I have alot of admiration for them and the work they've put in with virtually no support from the CC.

I think in the past the country coucillors have put money into that house. In the eighties they even fixed the roof while they were resurfacing the road in there. If that roof hadnt been fixed you would be looking at a ruin now.

Gipo3 wrote: »

Hopefully the ruling will be in their favour so Lissadell can be open full-time and bring tourists to Sligo. Its so daft to hear councillors on the radio going on about funding from the tourist board when they have closed the biggest asset to tourism in the county.

I think in fairness if the county council bent the law in other aspects we would be on their back in no time and rightly too. If it is a public right of way, it should be open to the public if it isnt it shouldnt. If the CC believe its a right of way they must protect the public's interest and enforce it. End of story.

Gipo3

Its disgraceful that a very small group of people who dont have the wider support of sligo people are able to do this, and the council are to waste millions on this. How stupid are they.

T runner

Gipo3 wrote: »

Its disgraceful that a very small group of people who dont have the wider support of sligo people are able to do this, and the council are to waste millions on this. How stupid are they.

Im not trying to give a general backing to the Sligo CoCo but if they believe its a Right of Way they should enforce it. They should also enforce public rights of way everywhere, mind you.

If they believe its a right of way and they donet enforce it then they are doing wrong by the wider public. You cant have one law for somebody and a different law for someone else, depending on how popular you will be if you enforce the Law in any particular case.

Remember too the wider Sligo public voted the CoCo in to make these decisions.

Remember also rights of ways allows you access through vast areas of the Irish countryside. It is an important Law to uphold.

Its a lovely spot and i hope it stays open but teh rights of way issue is seperate from that.

FloatingVoter

Dublin calling. I'm thinking of visiting (used to go there as a child) - are there any bus services running from Sligo town out to Lissadell ?

genie

Drove to Lissadell this afternoon to visit the Alpine Garden only to find that it's closed as the concert paraphanalia is still being dismantled. There was no mention of this on the Lissadell website so it was a wasted journey. :mad:

mountainy man

mountainy man wrote: »

I am delighted to hear that they have reopened , I am full of admiration for the new owners regarding all the work they have put into their project , I have visited quite a few times both before they took it on and after and love the place especially the gardens they are inspiring and beautifull. I hope the right of way issues can be sorted out soon as both parties really need to deal with each other amicably to improve the tourism in the county . I hope lissadell goes from strength to strength as our only historical house and gardens available to visit in the area , I will be returning next week , I am a garden addict and need a fix.:D

I also made a trip to lissadell today to see the gardens and was very dissapointed to see the alpine garden closed , I was really looking forward to seeing it again and therefore very pissed off , no mentioning of this on their website is awfull was a 50 mile round trip wasted. I thought that the owners being from Dublin would mean better comunication of the facts but they must have contracted "sligoitis" shame.:(

T runner

mountainy man wrote: »

I also made a trip to lissadell today to see the gardens and was very dissapointed to see the alpine garden closed , I was really looking forward to seeing it again and therefore very pissed off , no mentioning of this on their website is awfull was a 50 mile round trip wasted. I thought that the owners being from Dublin would mean better comunication of the facts but they must have contracted "sligoitis" shame.:(

A simple phone call to make sure perhaps if you were putting all your eggs in the "Alpine Garden" basket? Maybe you have a bad case of self righteous Dublinitis?

Essexboy

mountainy man wrote: »

I also made a trip to lissadell today to see the gardens and was very dissapointed to see the alpine garden closed , I was really looking forward to seeing it again and therefore very pissed off , no mentioning of this on their website is awfull was a 50 mile round trip wasted. I thought that the owners being from Dublin would mean better comunication of the facts but they must have contracted "sligoitis" shame.:(

Actually they are from KILDARE: assuming everywhere east of Mullingar is in Dublin is a form of "sligoitis"!

JOBSOXO

Good news for all, in that the owners have come to their senses & rather than running away with the ball & refusing to let any one else play with it. They have recently reopened the House again (Until 19th of October). This obviously negates their argument that it would be impossible to manage with the Right of way through the Estate. It is about time they took a new approach & worked with the Co Co. & the locals rather trying to insist to their terms only. :rolleyes:

dardevle

......



afaik these limited openings are for tax purposes.




....

Contra Proferentem

dardevle wrote: »

......



afaik these limited openings are for tax purposes.




....

That would be unfortunate, as it is about time that some sense was displayed by all parties involved in what has become such a bitter dispute.

The continued attitude of the owners simply supports theories that they were simply involved for profit and wanted to have a "lord of the manor" set up at Lissadell, determining who could visit the estate and who could not.

Such attitudes were left in the days of old for a reason.

partyguinness

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/court-rules-in-favour-of-lissadell-owners-in-right-of-way-case-1.1590985


Finally at an end

tipptom

Paid 4 million for it,invested 9 million,fought a legal case costing 7 million,looks like they have a million kids,knew barristers were on good money but this puts it in another stratosphere.

Could they get this money back on tourism to the house?

red sean

tipptom wrote: »

Paid 4 million for it,invested 9 million,fought a legal case costing 7 million,looks like they have a million kids,knew barristers were on good money but this puts it in another stratosphere.

Could they get this money back on tourism to the house?

They've been receiving generous tax breaks all along by opening the house for the minimum required time to qualify.
Constance Markievicz and her family must be turning in their graves today to see her beloved country return to the tyranny of the past which she dedicated her life to destroying.
Only difference now is, the tyrants are Irish not British!

partyguinness

red sean wrote: »

They've been receiving generous tax breaks all along by opening the house for the minimum required time to qualify.
Constance Markievicz and her family must be turning in their graves today to see her beloved country return to the tyranny of the past which she dedicated her life to destroying.
Only difference now is, the tyrants are Irish not British!

That is the very definition of hyperbole.

Sligo CC certainly had no interest in looking after the place so fair play to the Cassidy's for taking the initiative.

Remember this was a Celtic Tiger purchase and the CC fought them all the way and now must pay. I remember being absolutely baffled by the High Court decision. Bryan McMahon let his heart rather than his head affect his decision.

red sean

Are you a local? What is you're connection to this situation?

I am a local who has lived near Lissadell for 50 years and knew the Gore-Booths and the estate long before the current owners took over.
There was never a problem accessing any part of the estate at any time, either on foot or by car/tractor or whatever.
In fact, Miss Aideen Gore-Booth loved to chat to the local people as she met them.

Much of the annoyance of the local people has been caused by the arrogant manner in which the current owners went about closing these rights of way.
The Co. Co. had included these rights in their plans and this was disputed by the owners. The Council then, on behalf of the locals, had no choice but to contest the issue in a Court of law.

partyguinness

red sean wrote: »

Are you a local? What is you're connection to this situation?

I am a local who has lived near Lissadell for 50 years and knew the Gore-Booths and the estate long before the current owners took over.
There was never a problem accessing any part of the estate at any time, either on foot or by car/tractor or whatever.
In fact, Miss Aideen Gore-Booth loved to chat to the local people as she met them.

Much of the annoyance of the local people has been caused by the arrogant manner in which the current owners went about closing these rights of way.
The Co. Co. had included these rights in their plans and this was disputed by the owners. The Council then, on behalf of the locals, had no choice but to contest the issue in a Court of law.

....and which they have lost.

My connection with the area/issue is of no relevance and neither is yours and a very lazy argument to resort to when someone does not agree with you.

The High Court decision was bad and unfortunately local passions are so inflamed they cannot see this. Bizarre sense of entitlement at play.

Of course, it is very annoying when these things happen but the Gore-Booth family are long gone and time to look forward. Not backward. I just hope the locals will respect this new reality no matter how unpalatable.

periodictable

red sean wrote: »

They've been receiving generous tax breaks all along by opening the house for the minimum required time to qualify.
Constance Markievicz and her family must be turning in their graves today to see her beloved country return to the tyranny of the past which she dedicated her life to destroying.
Only difference now is, the tyrants are Irish not British!

Begruding bulls**t.
The Irish state looked at this place when it was up for sale and decided it would cost €30million plus to buy and renovate. Cassidy and Walsh have done it for 1/2 this, as well as significantly boosting tourist numbers in the Sligo area.
Your attitude and the behavior of the politician who started this sordid episode smacks of great Irish begrudgery.
In Co Clare, a public right of way was extinguished by the county council for the development of a private resort. Sligo county council should have had the balls to talk with the owners and extinguish what it considered rights of way, and perhaps ask to instead leave one or two far from the house open. Instead, Sligo people will now foot the bill for a lengthy and unnecessary legal outing.
By the way, explain the tyranny you are talking about.

pedroeibar1

red sean wrote: »

Much of the annoyance of the local people has been caused by the arrogant manner in which the current owners went about closing these rights of way.
The Co. Co. had included these rights in their plans and this was disputed by the owners. The Council then, on behalf of the locals, had no choice but to contest the issue in a Court of law.

They did not close 'the rights of way' because those 'rights' never existed. The council did not have to disput what clearly was a false claim. Congratulations to the owners. The decision in their favour was unanimous, with none of the five judges dissenting. A kick in the a$$ to all those who want to introduce ‘right to roam’ in Ireland and who have no respect for individual ownership and property rights. The sad thing is that the taxpayer now will have to stump up the legal bill because of the pigheadedness of a few vote searching local politicos.

partyguinness

I think a lot of the bad attitude from the locals stems from "Let's stick it the Jackeens. How dare they!"

Electricman

red sean wrote: »

Are you a local? What is you're connection to this situation?

I am a local who has lived near Lissadell for 50 years and knew the Gore-Booths and the estate long before the current owners took over.
There was never a problem accessing any part of the estate at any time, either on foot or by car/tractor or whatever.
In fact, Miss Aideen Gore-Booth loved to chat to the local people as she met them.

Much of the annoyance of the local people has been caused by the arrogant manner in which the current owners went about closing these rights of way.
The Co. Co. had included these rights in their plans and this was disputed by the owners. The Council then, on behalf of the locals, had no choice but to contest the issue in a Court of law.

The arrogance of this post is astounding. First of all no one denies that the Gore- Booths let the public use the estate when they were the owners. They are not the owners now, and the new owners are not obliged to act in the same manner as any previous owner. Secondly as decided by the Supreme Court, this morning there are no “rights of way” in Lissadell Estate. Get back under your rock Red Sean and remember when you are paying your rates and property taxes, your hard earned money is being used to fund stupid court cases like this.

Curly Judge

red sean wrote: »

They've been receiving generous tax breaks all along by opening the house for the minimum required time to qualify.
Constance Markievicz and her family must be turning in their graves today to see her beloved country return to the tyranny of the past which she dedicated her life to destroying.
Only difference now is, the tyrants are Irish not British!

You would probably prefer it if the house was allowed to fall to rack and ruin so long as your socialist sensibilities were satisfied?
Tyrants....ffs?

red sean

partyguinness wrote: »

I think a lot of the bad attitude from the locals stems from "Let's stick it the Jackeens. How dare they!"

What "jackeens"?
The term 'jackeen' usually refers in a derogoatory manner to people from Dublin. The current owners of Lissadell estate are not from Dublin!
Do your homework please!

red sean

periodictable wrote: »

Begruding bulls**t.
The Irish state looked at this place when it was up for sale and decided it would cost €30million plus to buy and renovate. Cassidy and Walsh have done it for 1/2 this, as well as significantly boosting tourist numbers in the Sligo area.
Your attitude and the behavior of the politician who started this sordid episode smacks of great Irish begrudgery.
In Co Clare, a public right of way was extinguished by the county council for the development of a private resort. Sligo county council should have had the balls to talk with the owners and extinguish what it considered rights of way, and perhaps ask to instead leave one or two far from the house open. Instead, Sligo people will now foot the bill for a lengthy and unnecessary legal outing.
By the way, explain the tyranny you are talking about.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion with out that opinion being referred to in a crude manner!
Anyway, regarding the portion of your post that I highlighted, at the outset the Co.Co did indeed request to do meet with the owners to discuss this possibility of what you say, but this request was refused by the owners.

blackiebest1

@Red Sean, not quiet correct, Sligo Co. Co installed in their plan, prompted by Mr. Leonard, that the right of way('s) existed. The Cassidys then took legal action, the CoCo, then offered mediation!

red sean

Not as I recall it, so we'll have to agree to disagree!
The fact the Council is being blamed in this whole thing is a bit pointless.
When both sides had different points of view and mediation wasn't going to happen, the court of law is unfortunately the only way out.
Rights of way must be defined in law on many occasions, particularly in the event of possible damages claims arising from events on these pieces of land.
In the Lissadell case, we now can fairly safely say we know what is and is not a right of way (depending on whether a case is brought to Europe as mentioned in some media circles), even if many of us disagree!

periodictable

red sean wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to their opinion with out that opinion being referred to in a crude manner!

Someone needs to point out that the emperor is bollock naked.

Bellview

Barristers are laughing literally as the legal fees just make the case seem illogical no matter who is right or wrong

Kettleson

Holy smoke, a lot of veteran boards.ie members have come out of retirement to have their say on this one. You can nit-pick your way into oblivion, with a smattering of pack mentality thrown in for good measure. But for what it's worth, I'm with Red Sean. Enjoy them strolls along the beach folks, just mind how you go.

tipptom

Kettleson wrote: »

Holy smoke, a lot of veteran boards.ie members have come out of retirement to have their say on this one. You can nit-pick your way into oblivion, with a smattering of pack mentality thrown in for good measure. But for what it's worth, I'm with Red Sean. Enjoy them strolls along the beach folks, just mind how you go.

Im with Red Sean to,Millionaire Irish judges side with millionaire Irish barristers shocker and don't be going on about the buying the house as if they were making some sort of altruistic gift to the Irish people when the council did not step in,the Casssidys overpaid for a place that was for the Cassidys financial benefit.

Curly Judge

tipptom wrote: »

Im with Red Sean to,Millionaire Irish judges side with millionaire Irish barristers shocker and don't be going on about the buying the house as if they were making some sort of altruistic gift to the Irish people when the council did not step in,the Casssidys overpaid for a place that was for the Cassidys financial benefit.

That hardly makes sense, now does it?
....Even by the standards of loony left economics?

Kettleson

It is somewhat ironic that the English owners offered a Cead Mile Failte and every man woman and child was welcome to walk the grounds and did so for many many decades with never a bother.

Where to now? An 8 foot perimeter barbed wire fence? Security cameras? Prosecutions for trespass?

I'm sure permission to build a plain perimeter block wall would not be granted...well actually I'm not so sure. I'm off for a stroll.

periodictable

tipptom wrote: »

the Casssidys overpaid for a place that was for the Cassidys financial benefit.

What they do with their money is their business.

red sean

Kettleson wrote: »

It is somewhat ironic that the English owners offered a Cead Mile Failte and every man woman and child was welcome to walk the grounds and did so for many many decades with never a bother.

Where to now? An 8 foot perimeter barbed wire fence? Security cameras? Prosecutions for trespass?

I'm sure permission to build a plain perimeter block wall would not be granted...well actually I'm not so sure. I'm off for a stroll.

Going to be very interesting to see how these non-rights of way now will be protected. We've already seen the spikes, barbed wire etc that were erected after the High Court ruling. An American tourist likened it to East Germany in the '60s!

periodictable

red sean wrote: »

Going to be very interesting to see how these non-rights of way now will be protected. We've already seen the spikes, barbed wire etc that were erected after the High Court ruling. An American tourist likened it to East Germany in the '60s!

If you are so concerned about keeping the place open to the public, why didn't you put your money where your mouth is and buy the place for what you perceive to be the greater good?
If there were a contest for the greatest begrudger in 2013, you'd win it hands down.
As for the American tourist, were he to trespass on private land in his country,he knows he'd be taking his life into his own hands.

reprazant

tipptom wrote: »

Im with Red Sean to,Millionaire Irish judges side with millionaire Irish barristers shocker and don't be going on about the buying the house as if they were making some sort of altruistic gift to the Irish people when the council did not step in,the Casssidys overpaid for a place that was for the Cassidys financial benefit.

So when the high court went against there it was a case of millionaire Irish judges side with millionaire Irish barristers shocker? Or was that a case of Irish judges sides with Irish state shocker?

Sligo CC had the chance of buying the place, they didn't but then wanted it both ways. They wanted to force the couple to keep it open to the public without them having to pay anything towards it.

tipptom

periodictable wrote: »

If you are so concerned about keeping the place open to the public, why didn't you put your money where your mouth is and buy the place for what you perceive to be the greater good?
If there were a contest for the greatest begrudger in 2013, you'd win it hands down.
As for the American tourist, were he to trespass on private land in his country,he knows he'd be taking his life into his own hands.

That's nice of you Constance,so you still think you bought the place for the greater good of the Irish people and who said the American tourist was trespassing?

tipptom

reprazant wrote: »

So when the high court went against there it was a case of millionaire Irish judges side with millionaire Irish barristers shocker? Or was that a case of Irish judges sides with Irish state shocker?

Sligo CC had the chance of buying the place, they didn't but then wanted it both ways. They wanted to force the couple to keep it open to the public without them having to pay anything towards it.

No,Sligo CC was not trying to requisition the house after the Cassidys had bought it,all they were asking is that the rights continued but celtic tiger developers win out again.

Kettleson

What has politics and the "loony left" got to do with it.

I could paint swastikas on my fence and leave old rusting tractors scattered all over my "land", but out of common decency and respect for my neighbours I don't. So too respect for pathways that have been there for years...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHqeDALw058

Warning: The very bad man says the "F" word at 7 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2k6qwc7v-A

tipptom

Curly Judge wrote: »

[/COLOR]

That hardly makes sense, now does it?
....Even by the standards of loony left economics?

They paid loony Celtic tiger prices for their house.Dont know what loony left economics has got to do with it.

Carson10

Hope to see Lisadell re-opened and all the hard work and money spent by the Cassidys to be enjoyed by all. They have done excellent work in restoring and maintaining this wonderful piece of Sligo.

Again the negative attitude and jealousy of Sligo people have lost us 1,000s of tourists since it Closed. Its actually embarrassing.

Fair play to the Cassidys. I offer them all my support.!

If you have a problem, go walk somewhere else!!!

tipptom

Carson10 wrote: »

Hope to see Lisadell re-opened and all the hard work and money spent by the Cassidys to be enjoyed by all. They have done excellent work in restoring and maintaining this wonderful piece of Sligo.

Again the negative attitude and jealousy of Sligo people have lost us 1,000s of tourists since it Closed. Its actually embarrassing.

Fair play to the Cassidys. I offer them all my support.!

If you have a problem, go walk somewhere else!!!

So when people question something in this country and ask their Co Council to question it,according to you its just jealousy,begrudgery and negativity.:rolleyes:

red sean

@Carson10, the family decided to close the house on health & safety grounds according to media reports at the time.
This was their decision and they're entitled to that decision. But, it seems their were no grounds for concern in Sept/Oct every year when they re-opened for tax purposes.Therefore the house could have stayed open to the public all along and kept the few employees workingand an income stream coming in.
Not trying to get into an argument about it, just to clarify that point.

vicwatson

Who pays approx 7,000,000.00 euro that this case has cost thus far? Sligo County Council are a joke taking this case this far, We are broke FFS !

partyguinness

vicwatson wrote: »

Who pays approx 7,000,000.00 euro that this case has cost thus far? Sligo County Council are a joke taking this case this far, We are broke FFS !

On a slightly separate issue, it's absolutely shameful that it should cost this amount of money to take a legal case all the way to the Supreme Court.

The sooner the Government address legal costs in this country the better as highllighted by the Troika. I won't hold my breath.:rolleyes: