Professional Accounting Bodies - Discussion and Comparisons

smcgiff

Potential accounting students often raise the questions - what is the best accounting body and what are the differences between certain bodies. Not as simple a request as the uninitiated may think.

It is hoped this thread will provide a forum to answer these questions.

If providing information you could be detailed i.e. ACCA Vs CPA or more ambitious and include a greater range.

I would include the Technician bodies i.e IATI, AAT and CAT as being among the professional bodies. IATI Vs ACCA etc is a frequent enough request.

Bear in mind no matter how detailed or objective you think you are there will be others out there that may disagree.

I know there are other bodies out there, but if we keep to those that are most relevant to Ireland this would include ACCA, CAI, CIMA, ICPAI, IIPA and AAT, IATI and CAT. I've excluded tax on purpose as this is a separate concern.

Please note that the moderators will police this thread with the view to keeping it as fact based as possible and away from opinions

I may add my own input here, but for now feel free to post your advice/experiences.

smcgiff

I’ve given my shot at this below. I’m an ACCA so I’ll start with these and make some comparisons with the other bodies where relevant, and also set out what I know about the other bodies under their own headings.

ACCA

ACCA has over 140,000 members and over 400,000 students in over 170 countries. There would be over half as many ACCA members in Ireland compared to CAI members, but now has almost twice as many current students than CAI.

ACCA considers itself a global body, but are missing some key reciprocal agreements in Anglo countries, such as the US, Canada and Australia where the CAI have better agreements with its sister organisations. ICPAI also have a reciprocal agreement with CPA Australia. <personal opinion alert> I think this is because ACCA are set up in these countries and would be seen as competitors rather than partners.

ACCA members and Students would be found in small and medium sized practices, but are slowly breaking into some of the big four. ACCA members would also be found at all levels of industry, but most top jobs would remain with CAI members <personal opinion alert> possibly due to historical legacy.

The ACCA exams along with CIMA’s would be rated as among the hardest. Rates are lower than CAI’s exams. Its not unusual for final audit paper to have a lower than 30% pass rate at an individual sitting.

ACCA has for a number of years allowed options in the final stages of its qualification. Broadly speaking there is the traditional audit route or the Management Accounting route (similar to CIMA’s qualification).

ACCA students study in third party colleges, whereas all CAI education is done in-house; they are the college essentially. So you can only do the CAI academic programme through their own internal education. ACCA rate colleges as ACCA approved, ACCA Gold Approved, and ACCA Platinum Approved. There would also be other non approved colleges that offer ACCA lectures.

Teaching Council of Ireland recognise ACCA (and ICPAI) for the purposes of teaching three subjects to leaving cert level. Business Studies, Economics and Accounting. CAI are only recognised for Business Studies and Accounting.

Annual membership fee approx €200 euro approx a third of CAI and ICPAI fees.

Studying costs are borne by student whereas CAI students (excluding "Flexible Option" / Chartered Business Route) have these fees paid for them. <MOD NOTE: Many CAI students don't have their fees paid for them. If they are under a training contact, yes they do; if they are in the Flexible Route, they may or may not, depending on where they are working.>


ACCA students require 3 years approved experience (one of which can be before joining ACCA, but 2 years must be after joining).

ACCA, CAI, CPA and IIPA members can receive a practice certificate or audit certificate if they receive the relevant approved experience.

ACCA qualification has been rated at HETAC level 9 (same level as masters degree).

Designation: ACCA for Member and FCCA for Fellow – can call themselves Chartered Certified Accountant

CAI

The oldest accountancy body in Ireland with over 23,000 members. 3,500 are based abroad.

Chartered students can either enter into a training contract or go into the Flexible Option, where no contract is required at any stage.

ACA would be considered the premium designation, although somewhat diluted since ACCA members became chartered (see below paragraph on chartered satus) in the 90s.

It has excellent reciprocal agreements in the UK, US, Australia and Canada with only tax and legal papers required to get membership of local premier bodies in US, Australia and Canada.

ACA’s will be found in small, medium and the largest practices as well as in industry.

ACA students enter into contracts with ACA approved firms (practice or less usual, industry) and cannot become members until a certain amount of time has elapsed - from 3.5 years to 5 years depending on whether you join as a graduate or school leaver.

<MOD NOTE: This is partly true, as while the majority of students are in practice under contract, about 20% would be in the Flexible Option for CAI, where there is no training contract requirement. These would mostly be found in Industry.>

ACA also provide their students with mock exams before sitting the real thing.

ACA qualification has been rated at HETAC level 9 (same level as masters degree).

Designation: ACA for member and FCA for Fellow – Can call themselves Chartered Accountant.

ICPAI

An Irish based accountancy body with over 5,000 on its books (including members and students).

It’s members would mostly work in practice with small and medium sized practices, with some working in industry.

CPA is not a member of the CCAB (like ACCA, CAI, and CIMA), but are members of the CCAB-I (as are ACCA and the CAI).

CPA would not have as much recognition in practice as ACCA or CAI or in industry as CIMA, ACCA and CAI as evidenced by required qualifications in job ads being considerably more often ACA, ACCA or CIMA (if industry) or simply CCAB.

CPA Ireland has an excellent reciprocal agreement with CPA Australia.

The CPA designation is the most common in the world, but CPA Ireland has no connection with, say, the US CPA.

Study is done at third party colleges

Designation: CPA for Member and FCPA for Fellow – Can call themselves Certified Public Accountants

CIMA

Mostly found in industry – has more than 80,000 members and over 90,000 students worldwide.

It is a very highly thought of qualification in industry scoring excellently in salary surveys.

Would be relatively rare in practice, as its syllabus concentrates less on audit and more on costing and management accounting.

Study is done at third party colleges.

Designation: ACMA for Member and FCMA for Fellow – can call themselves Chartered Management Accountant.

IIPA

A fully recognised accountancy and audit body in Ireland, with members and students totalling in the hundreds.

It would not have nearly as much recognition as would ACCA, ACA or CPA accountants.

It prides itself as catering to the accounting needs of small businesses.

It gives generous exemptions to students with prior learning.

Designation: AIPA for member and FIPA for Fellow – Can call themselves Incorporated Public Accountant.



Accounting Technicians (AAT, CAT and IATI)

These are Accounting support staff and would be trained to prepare accounts up to trial balance level. Quite a number of people studying these courses do so with the intention of taking membership exams of the ACCA, CAI, CIMA and CPA.

AAT is mostly in the UK, and less so now in Ireland. It is sponsored by the chartered bodies in the UK except ACCA which dropped it in the 90s to start up its own CAT technician brand. IATI is sponsored by the CAI in Ireland.

While a terminal qualification in its own right, it would be considered more of a stepping stone to further qualification.

CHARTERED Designation

This is not without debate on boards.ie when it comes to choosing an organisation, so may be helpful.

ICAI (now CAI) were, along with its sister organisations (ICAS and ICAEW) among the first accounting bodies to receive a charter (recognition) from the UK monarchy. This is what chartered means. They have since been able to use the designation ACA (although ICAS were first and can use CA).

ACCA and CIMA received their charter in the last few decades, and are equally chartered. And can call themselves ‘chartered’, but cannot call themselves ‘chartered accountant’ as it is taken, and must call themselves as described in the paragraphs above.

EXCELLENT BODY INFO - See link

http://www.iaasa.ie/publications/Annual_Report2009_Ch7.pdf

This answers a lot of queries people have on the accountancy bodies in Ireland. Student info starts on page 20, ends page 27, but the membership info in the first twenty pages is also excellent.

Acquiesce

Brilliant thread smcgiff, and thanks for such an in-depth post.

smcgiff wrote: »

The ACCA exams along with CIMA’s would be rated as among the hardest. Rates are lower than CAI’s exams. Its not unusual for final audit paper to have a lower than 30% pass rate at an individual sitting.

I read on here that the CAI changed their examining method recently and it is now much tougher and the pass rate has dropped quite a bit, so would this still be the case, especially if we were to ignore the audit paper and the P6 exam, which I think i'm right in saying you don't have to do?

smcgiff

Acquiesce wrote: »

I read on here that the CAI changed their examining method recently and it is now much tougher and the pass rate has dropped quite a bit, so would this still be the case, especially if we were to ignore the audit paper and the P6 exam, which I think i'm right in saying you don't have to do?

Yip - have heard the CAI pass rates have dropped, but from very high levels. This is some years back, but it was not uncommon for 90% pass rates. I don't think they've dropped back to ACCA levels yet though.

I'll give some thought to setting up a sticky comparing pass rates going forward from the different bodies.

Acquiesce

I have just been doing some research, and if you do decide to make a thread on pass rates this may make your life a bit easier.

These are the rates for ACCA
http://www.accaglobal.com/students/exams/rates/acca

I couldn't find anything for CAI, but this is the ICAEW pass rate, I'm not sure how strongly they relate to each other. The first link is for up to 2008, the second for 2010.

http://www.icaew.com/index.cfm/route/154009/icaew_ga/en/Home/Press_and_policy/Press_releases/ACA_Professional_Stage_Exam_Results_published

http://www.icaew.com/examresults/latest/stats.htm

I'm shocked at the difference.

smcgiff

Thanks - would be interesting to see what the CAI results are going forward to see if there is a marked difference with prior CAI results.

I'm sure our CAI student posters will help us out with the info.

Legend100

Excellent thread SmcGiff, really answers alot of the questions that arise on this board and hopefully new students will look at this post before posting their queries on a potential institute choice.

I'm CAI (well will be when i'm admitted next month) and my two cents on the exams are that for when I did my exams (2007, 2008 and finals in 2009) the pass rate was considerably higher than ACCA and it could be said that we had the easier exams (still very tough!!) but that has all changed since the implementation of the new syllabus.

The pass rates have dropped dramatically since the new syllabus was introduced with the Cap1 (what was really introductory accounting at the old prof 2) being at a very high difficulty level for first year exams with the pass rate being much lower than what i came across when i was doing the exams. This has been seen again in the new Cap2 with pass rates much below what was being achieved in the old Prof 3. And the new FAE that is being examined this year will be even worse id say with no requirement in the questions and it up to the student to answer on what they think the issues are. I would say that the difficulty of the new CAI course needs to be highlighted as many students may look up historic pass rates when making their decision and think they will be fine but will find that the new exams are beyond what they are capable of especially when they are studying whilst being locked into a 3.5 year contract.

Other than the exams, i think that you have hit the nail on the head with all the points on the CAI.

The main drawback for the CAI was that you were locked into contract for the 3.5 years (typically but could be more or less depending on your previous college experience) but the introduction of the elevation programme has removed this burden......if you can afford the fees yourself over the three years

smcgiff

Legend100 wrote: »

The main drawback for the CAI was that you were locked into contract for the 3.5 years (typically but could be more or less depending on your previous college experience) but the introduction of the elevation programme has removed this burden......if you can afford the fees yourself over the three years

Would I be correct in thinking the burden is put off, as while you can complete the exams outside a contract you cannot become a CAI member until you've spent your time in contract?!?

Legend100

Yes that is correct. You can do your exams first and get your experience later with the Elevation programme. you still have to do the 3.5 years of experience but the institute can allow up to 18 months of previous relevant work experience against this 3.5 years on application

acca_newby

Quick question. I work in the private sector with an US Multinational company in a marketing role. I'd like to understand what are the barriers for me in getting an accountancy accrediation. Above you mention that one can study for CAI exams without being in a contract. You pay for your own study, but must eventually enter a contract and serve your time before becoming a full member. Can you get work off an accountancy firm part-time to serve your time assuming one gets the accrediation?

hurlingfan11 wrote: »

Can you get work off an accountancy firm part-time to serve your time assuming one gets the accrediation?

With ACCA and CPA part time work would be accepted, however it would be prorata and therefore it would take a lot longer than 3 years to build up enough experience. Not sure about CAI - I don't know if you can enter part time contracts.

smcgiff wrote: »

Yip - have heard the CAI pass rates have dropped, but from very high levels. This is some years back, but it was not uncommon for 90% pass rates. I don't think they've dropped back to ACCA levels yet though.

I'll give some thought to setting up a sticky comparing pass rates going forward from the different bodies.

CAP 2 pass rate was 35% this year. What was ACCA's equivalent? I doubt it was this low. I doubt NASA's new program for rocket surgeons has a lower pass rate. CAI is a joke.

BESman wrote: »

CAP 2 pass rate was 35% this year. What was ACCA's equivalent? I doubt it was this low. I doubt NASA's new program for rocket surgeons has a lower pass rate. CAI is a joke.

ACCA's results will be out on the 23rd I think - should be interesting.

Not sure if this is the right place to ask but I doubt this warrants a thread of its own..

Im signing up to the ACCA exams. But my current employer will not be paying for the exams. I will be paying for the first few myself and then hope to get a job in a relevant accounting position.

Can I sign up to the exams without mentioning my employer? I work in life assurance so its not exactly related to accounting thus why they would not pay for my exams.

girvtheswerve wrote: »

Can I sign up to the exams without mentioning my employer?

Absolutely - Although CAI have a similar route now. Good luck

smcgiff wrote: »

ACCA's results will be out on the 23rd I think - should be interesting.

Is it not the case that a huge proportion of CAI candidates are from the bigger accounting firms? And that they get substantial study leave before exams, whereas candidates for the ACCA exams are by and large funding their study leave from holidays and unpaid leave. The few that I know doing ACCA work either in the likes of PNC or Statestreet, or in a manufacturing industry and get very little time to study. Therefore it would surely follow that the CAI should have a higher pass rate even allowing for the difficulty level being the same?

DolphinTales wrote: »

Is it not the case that a huge proportion of CAI candidates are from the bigger accounting firms? And that they get substantial study leave before exams, whereas candidates for the ACCA exams are by and large funding their study leave from holidays and unpaid leave. The few that I know doing ACCA work either in the likes of PNC or Statestreet, or in a manufacturing industry and get very little time to study. Therefore it would surely follow that the CAI should have a higher pass rate even allowing for the difficulty level being the same?

That may be a factor alright, but most ACCA students I know built up their holidays and used them for study. I know I did, but appreciate this still would not equal CAI holidays. However, I'm not totally convinced it would have made much difference to me - I probably would have treated the first number of weeks as holidays anyway, as I seemed to study more as time pressure built.

I think there could be a sticky dedicated to comparing the differences students in each bodies have to go through to become qualified and I'll give some thought to this when I get a chance.

BESman wrote: »

CAP 2 pass rate was 35% this year. What was ACCA's equivalent? I doubt it was this low. I doubt NASA's new program for rocket surgeons has a lower pass rate. CAI is a joke.

I quite agree with you on this one.... i lost my contract last yr after writing SFMA 4 times! so I switched to ACCA this yr and passed F5 & F9 first time (SFMA is split into two with ACCA - one differentiating factor:rolleyes:)

Judging from my experience with ACA lectures... I believe they stretch for weeks on end with a lot of content but no depth so you end up with volumes to study but no proper understanding of what you are studying!!! The institute should really think more about the quality of lectures instead of the extra cash earned from repeats, revision classes,etc... it puts a lot of strain on students:mad:

smcgiff

I've added more info to the second post on this thread (see added link). There's really excellent info on ALL the bodies in the Republic of Ireland. I learned a lot from this...

Chartered Accountants

smcgiff wrote: »

Potential accounting students often raise the questions - what is the best accounting body and what are the differences between certain bodies. Not as simple a request as the uninitiated may think.

It is hoped this thread will provide a forum to answer these questions.

If providing information you could be detailed i.e. ACCA Vs CPA or more ambitious and include a greater range.

I would include the Technician bodies i.e IATI, AAT and CAT as being among the professional bodies. IATI Vs ACCA etc is a frequent enough request.

Bear in mind no matter how detailed or objective you think you are there will be others out there that may disagree.

I know there are other bodies out there, but if we keep to those that are most relevant to Ireland this would include ACCA, CAI, CIMA, ICPAI, IIPA and AAT, IATI and CAT. I've excluded tax on purpose as this is a separate concern.

Please note that the moderators will police this thread with the view to keeping it as fact based as possible and away from opinions

I may add my own input here, but for now feel free to post your advice/experiences.

Chartered Accountants

I'm from the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Australia (the Institute). I think it's important for students to also be aware of the global opportunities that exist, even though they are based in Ireland.

Two professional accounting bodies which you've mentioned ICAI + ICAEW are both members of the Global Accounting Alliance (GAA). The Institute of Chartered Accountants in Australia is also a member of this unique alliance.

What are the benefits:
Due to reciprocal arrangements between 11 GAA member bodies, it means your Chartered Accountant qualification will be recognised if you are keen to work overseas.

“No matter which of the GAA Institutes is your home, you will be welcomed by any or all of the other GAA Institutes wherever your work takes you”, said Garry Muriwai, Founding Chairman of the Global Accounting Alliance.

For more information on member support, read:
http://www.globalaccountingalliance.com/MemberSupport.html

smcgiff

Chartered Accountants wrote: »

Chartered Accountants

I'm from the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Australia (the Institute).

Hello and welcome,

Not quite the purpose of this thread, but can you tell us what a CAI qualified accountant would need to do to become a member of the Australian chartered institute?

First the requirements to become a non practicing member, and also as an auditor.

instofhorror

smcgiff wrote: »

I’ve given my shot at this below. I’m an ACCA

The ACCA exams along with CIMA’s would be rated as among the hardest. Rates are lower than CAI’s exams. Its not unusual for final audit paper to have a lower than 30% pass rate at an individual sitting.

Very comprehensive mcgiff, fair play.

On the above however, shouldn't there be a personal opinion alert? Its a questionable statement. Lower pass rates don't always indicate a tougher exam. ACCA would generally have a lot of students who have taken different routes to their qualification, so while many CAI students are fresh from their accountancy degree , this may not be the case for many ACCA students. Also, the best students in accounting degrees will have been recruited by the big4, where the vast majority will be doing CAI.

Add to this other factors, such as that there is more study leave for CAI exams, and more mature students (so with greater distractions etc) do ACCA and it provides other reasons why pass rates may be lower.

I know its human nature for people to promote their own experience as being the toughest (and I'll admit to being no different!) but from anecdotal evidence (I've friends who have done ACCA and siad the finals weren't too bad) CAI seem tougher.

smcgiff

instofhorror wrote: »

Very comprehensive mcgiff, fair play.

On the above however, shouldn't there be a personal opinion alert? Its a questionable statement.

Possibly, you didn't question when I said the CAI was the premium designation, but considering the scandals this could be in doubt. Also, lots of people mention ACCA and CIMA being the toughest - so it's not only my, but common, albeit not universal, opinion.

I've heard the quality of ACA students debate before - You'll see from the link above showing that most ACCA students have degrees. Also, by the time ACCA students get to the final stage they are past degree level ability, yet the final level pass rates are still very low.

Also, the current CAI pass rates which you may be aware of were drastically down - how do these pass rates sit with your assertions?

While the Big 4 may want the best students, it doesn't necessarily mean that the best students want to go into Big 4 - That's CAI practice blinkered thinking ACCA, unlike CAI, does not concentrate on practice and so allows an alternative route.

I doubt you're right about mature students - from what I understand they do very well when they go back to education and presumably the same applies with accountancy.

Finally, while CAI students get better holidays, they get them in block which may not be the best, but further it's somewhat if not entirely cancelled out because Big 4 students work considerably longer hours.

Now, as I've said the perceived difficulty of the CAI is up for debate considering the new pass levels. It will be interesting indeed.

instofhorror

smcgiff wrote: »

Possibly, you didn't question when I said the CAI was the premium designation, but considering the scandals this could be in doubt. Also, lots of people mention ACCA and CIMA being the toughest - so it's not only my, but common, albeit not universal, opinion.

I've heard the quality of ACA students debate before - You'll see from the link above showing that most ACCA students have degrees. Also, by the time ACCA students get to the final stage they are past degree level ability, yet the final level pass rates are still very low.

Also, the current CAI pass rates which you may be aware of were drastically down - how do these pass rates sit with your assertions?

While the Big 4 may want the best students, it doesn't necessarily mean that the best students want to go into Big 4 - That's CAI practice blinkered thinking ACCA, unlike CAI, does not concentrate on practice and so allows an alternative route.

I doubt you're right about mature students - from what I understand they do very well when they go back to education and presumably the same applies with accountancy.

Finally, while CAI students get better holidays, they get them in block which may not be the best, but further it's somewhat if not entirely cancelled out because Big 4 students work considerably longer hours.

Now, as I've said the perceived difficulty of the CAI is up for debate considering the new pass levels. It will be interesting indeed.

Thats the point, I'm saying the pass rates perhaps aren't a reliable indicator of which exam is tougher, so the drop in CAI pass rates is irrelevant to my assertions.

That ACCA is tougher is a personal opinion, and should be marked as such, in of course, my personal opinion

smcgiff

instofhorror wrote: »

Thats the point, I'm saying the pass rates perhaps aren't a reliable indicator of which exam is tougher, so the drop in CAI pass rates is irrelevant to my assertions.

It was the same quality, presumably, of CAI student that took the latest exams yet the pass rates went down. It's arguable, among other factors for sure, that the exams were made harder in the most recent sitting. It would be very difficult for factors such as doing away with the compensation pass to fully justify the drop.

instofhorror

Don't know whats going on there, just to put another perspective on it the main question on the FR paper (usually the one most fail) was a cashflow I heard, which is easier than consolidation which it usually is.

I also know a few repeating some of the subjects from last year, and they got high marks -they were astonished, as they felt it was touch and go, similar ( and in one case the person was sure he'd done worse) to last year when they failed twice...

smcgiff

instofhorror wrote: »

Don't know whats going on there, just to put another perspective on it the main question on the FR paper (usually the one most fail) was a cashflow I heard, which is easier than consolidation which it usually is.

Although it can be argued that the unexpected will always be more difficult

instofhorror

Mmmmm..well, you'd still have learnt it, because its always likely for one of the other smaller q's

Shurwhynot

CPA Student here with 2 finals left and 2 sittings in which to pass them, including this one. I'm just wondering if anyone has, or knows anyone, who has failed to pass all 4 finals in the required 4 sittings?

It is by far and away the worst thing about CPA. People dedicate 3-4 years of their lives to try and qualify and then if they dont pass all the final exams in 2 years, that's it for them.

I'm not writing this due to lack of confidence or anything, but it just has me curious. I've heard of people saying that CPA are known to give a 5th chance etc but is this common? They would surely have sympathy if someone had just one exam left for example.

smcgiff

Shurwhynot wrote: »

It is by far and away the worst thing about CPA.

Agreed and the main reason why you'll not find me seriously recommending CPA as a choice for potential students.

I simply do not understand the logic behind it. It’s a contrived difficulty that has no function. Would love for someone from CPA to come on and defend it

With that said - my understanding is that a fifth chance will be made available if begged. The four attempts are consecutive, so if you've given it 2 goes and have to miss the third sitting because you cannot be there it counts as one of your chances being missed. A sixth option will not be made available.

However, correct me if I'm wrong, but the worst (and I agree it's crushingly bad) that happens is that you have to resit all final papers, and not expulsion.

Shurwhynot,

Would you be up for detailing your knowledge of the CPA student process. Number of exams to get, how many exams are required to be taken at each stage, how many need to be passed to keep all exams etc how many goes at each stage before loss of passed exams.

Also, what exam help does CPA give? CPA used to give out heavy "hints" and exam guidance that at least covered at least one exam question. Anything else?

If so can you PM me with your contribution? I'll then need to contact someone from each of the other bodies to get their input. I'll then put up a sticky - credit to be given to each contributor.

Hanley

Aren't you only allowed 4 attempts at CAP 1 and CAP 2 level with CAI too?? Dunno what the story is with FAE's tho. I should probably find that out because judging by this weeks exams I could be sitting them all several more times.

censuspro

Shurwhynot wrote: »

CPA Student here with 2 finals left and 2 sittings in which to pass them, including this one. I'm just wondering if anyone has, or knows anyone, who has failed to pass all 4 finals in the required 4 sittings?

It is by far and away the worst thing about CPA. People dedicate 3-4 years of their lives to try and qualify and then if they dont pass all the final exams in 2 years, that's it for them.

I'm not writing this due to lack of confidence or anything, but it just has me curious. I've heard of people saying that CPA are known to give a 5th chance etc but is this common? They would surely have sympathy if someone had just one exam left for example.

Irish Taxation Institute had the same rule up until they changed the syllabus and exam structure this year.

CPA's can also become an ACCA via the mutual recognition directive.

smcgiff

censuspro wrote: »

CPA's can also become an ACCA via the mutual recognition directive.

I think you are referring to the European directive, but I'm not sure membership of any particular body is on offer it's just that you are allowed to practice in a particular country.

Can you clarify the steps as you see them?

MoWoolf

Very comprehensive thread but thought i'd weigh in with my own modest opinion.

I am Acca qualified having started in a (very) small acca sole practitioner and moving to a medium size practice where i qualified. In the Acca versus Aca eternal debate i think it is far more important choosing a quality practice where you receive the support and proper training.

Having many friends and a brother that qualified Aca i personally think that the chartered route is more conducive to passing by providing a very structered course compared to the far more flexible Acca. Obviously flexible is a big adavantage for some people! Also the Istitute provide the lecturers for chartered whereas with acca it's a mixed bag depending on which college you choose. Personally for 2 of the final papers with Acca i had horrendous lecturers in one particular prestigious college which i ended up repeating.

Good luck to anyone starting out.

shadowysmile

...Can't believe that I thought the ACA thing is the British qualification which is ICAEW...I don't know the CAI is called ACA as well...

I've heard of the ICAEW is the most authorized and recognized certification for accountants in Europe, especially in Britain and Irealand. Do I have a chance to get a trainee position for towarding ICAEW in Irealnd? Thanks a million~

mr_edge_to_you

As each day goes on I get more and more frustrated by the level of snobbery I see in this forum by accountants when it comes to their respective qualifications.

Everyone with a professional qualification whether it be an Engineer, Doctor, Solicitor, Accountant etc works damn hard to get to the level they are at.

Each qualification trains its members with a different skill set. Some people might find the subjects easy for one body and very difficult for another.

I think there is absolutely nothing between CIMA/ACCA/ACA in terms of level of qualification.

I have been on the job hunt for the last few weeks after being made redundant so I can see what is happening out there in the economy.

ACA - is very much practice/audit based. It offers many opportunities in Financial Services, Taxation, Auditing and Consulting areas. I did interviews recently for industry Financial Accountant roles and the interviewers were often ACA members.

ACCA - is a qualification that offers the best of both worlds. Carries equal weight in practice and industry. With ACCA, a member should be easily able to work in practice and industry. It is a more broader skillset then ACA I think.

CIMA - is a qualification geared primarily to industry. It is a much different skill set than ACA and ACCA. I genuinely feel it is as much a management qualification as an accounting qualification.

Multinationals in industry are primarily looking for ACCA/CIMA people and Financial Services/Consulting are looking for ACA/ACCA specifically.

If the candidate is right the membership type is less relevant. A good manager will appreciate that if someone has completed professional exams they have a fairly good idea as to what they are at.

I can't say enough that each body requires training in very different skillsets.

The CCAinsider

Very comprehensive comparison between bodies, however, I would add something on international mobility.

Firstly some of the international recognitions mentioned above are already out of date. The international recognitions are changing all of the time and currently there is a 3rd country regime where basically if you are a statutory auditor in Ireland (with ACCA, ACA, CPA, etc…) you can apply to a 3rd country, do an aptitude test in company law and tax and get a similar status in that country. All of the major countries are 3rd countries, America, Canada, Australia etc… and more are being added all of the time. It is a reciprocal thing, they approve us, and we approve them. It is a mutual recognition thing brought in to have a similar quality control over audits in all countries and extends an EU scheme already in place. It is not fully in place yet but it will be shortly. This is in addition to any mutual recognition agreement a local Irish body has with an international body.

I would suggest that people do not get too hung up on international mobility; it is unlikely that you will be signing an audit report in the US any time soon. If you move to Australia and work in public practice you are likely to be well down the local food chain and nowhere near partner level – so being “locally” qualified is really irrelevant until you are well down your career path, at which time anything that is in place now will have completely changed by then. And sometimes being locally qualified is no good, up until recently , say a US qualified auditor moving to Ireland could get membership of a local Irish body, but the local body could not grant that American CPA, statutory auditor status (they did not train in the EU). The third country regime sorts out this problem.

In choosing your professional body, I suggest that you look at your personal circumstances, how much time you have to study and how quickly you want to be finished exams and how flexible you need to be. Might you need to skip a set of exams if there is a rush on at work, do you want to do the exams slowly, how much flexibility do you need in where you study and where you do exams? Ask your employer; they will have a preference, which body they will fund and if you transfer internationally can you finish the exams. Don’t look at the level of difficulty of the exams – they are all much the same contrary to what many posts might tell you. Yes two of the bodies have harder exams then the other two, but ignore this, the difference is immaterial in the grand scheme of things and you might even be better off with a harder set of qualifications in the long run. In terms of one body’s professional standing over another – it depends on who you ask. Employers opinions and job adverts are all that really count.

smcgiff

Elevation Programme wrote: »

So to sum up, Elevation = no contract necessary at any point.

Excellent - Good to know. This is a big departure.

endabob1

There is now an agreement in place (or has been for a few years) in the UK for CIMA & ACCA members to become ICAEW members under the pathways scheme.

http://www.icaew.com/en/join-us/members-of-other-bodies/pathways-to-membership

One thing I will say for CIMA in particular is that while I have worked all over the world with it, if I had my time again, I would have added one of the Chartered Qualifications. Some countries it is virtually a closed shop, unless you are a member of the local Chartered body.

mydiscworld

Comparison of latest pass rates for 2011 for CPA, ACCA and CAI is here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056602953

(Post 7)

mydiscworld

Comparison of Accountancy Student & Member Numbers 2006 - 2010 is here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056637124

Prettyblack

This is wrong:

"Elevation Programme – A recent development from CAI (moving it closer to ACCA’s structure) in that you can study for CAI exams without being in a contract). You pay for your own study, but must eventually enter a contract and serve your time before becoming a full member."

I just rang the Elevation hot line and you don't need to enter into a contract at all to get your membership.

mydiscworld

A comparison of latest pass rates in 2012 for CAI, ACCA, CPA and CIMA can be found here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056602953

(post 9)

doctordolittle

mydiscworld wrote: »

A comparison of latest pass rates in 2012 for CAI, ACCA, CPA and CIMA can be found here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056602953

(post 9)

The only students that the CPA are picking up appear to be those who aren't capable of passing the other bodies exams!

bluemagpie

As an ACA I would recommend it, if you get a contract the structure of the programme is ideal for graduates being set up in a similar manner to uni, and provides decent study leave. I worked with people studying CIMA and ACCA who got 1 day of study leave per exam BUT got paid better, and a lot if these had failed numerous exams along the way but still qualified in the end. It really depends if your company has a graduate scheme, I would recommend taking the option of less pay with more study leave, I don't believe necessarily that any of the qualifications is tougher than any other. I would add that qualification and first time passes does matter depending on where you choose to work. As one poster said it is what recruiters and companies want that matters. As a newly qualified, being ACA with first time passes will give you a much greater chance of getting a job in finance in London etc, especially in investment banks, hedge funds etc.

sandy60

does any one know the pass rate for cpa exams?

mydiscworld

sandy60 wrote: »

does any one know the pass rate for cpa exams?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=82166128#post82166128

mydiscworld

Comparison of Accountancy Student & Member Numbers 2006 - 2012 is here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056637124

mydiscworld

2013 final stage Pass Rates for the Top 4 Accountancy Bodies in Ireland

CAI: In CAI's last two (Autumn) sittings of the Old FAE course the pass rate was 76.3% in 2008 & 76.3% again in 2009.

Under the new FAE course the overall pass rate dropped to 62% in 2010 and fell again to 55% for 2011.

Back at 62.3% for 2012 and and 63.4% in 2013

Note: you can only do CAI finals once per year.

CPA: CPA usually publish their pass figures in their annual reports.

See post 17 in this thread for all results from 2003 to 2012.

Pass rate average for CPA's finals (P2s) in
2010: 57.5%.
2011: 53.8%
2012: 54.2%

You can sit CPA exams twice per year.

ACCA: ACCA seem to publish the pass rates on a global basis only, not the pass rates in Ireland.

Final Stage (Ps) average was
June 2012: 42.3%
June 2013: 41.4%

with two sittings per year.

CIMA: CIMA, like ACAA, seem to publish the pass rates on a global basis only, not the pass rates in Ireland.
Final stage (Strategic Level) pass rate:
2012: 49.8%
2013: 58.3%

with two sittings per year.

Prettyblack

mydiscworld wrote: »

pass rates [snip]

Thanks for this post, Mydiscworld. That makes for very interesting reading - Chartered is the highest at 63%. ACCA very low on 41%.

Ghost.

Why do you think there is such a large difference in the pass rates between CAI and ACCA? 22% is a big difference.

mydiscworld

Prettyblack wrote: »

Thanks for this post, Mydiscworld. That makes for very interesting reading - Chartered is the highest at 63%. ACCA very low on 41%.

Well the Acca and Cima pass rates are worldwide rates not just Irish students.

In my opinion we would have a higher standard of student than average and therefore the Irish pass rates could be higher

Other factors like 2 sittings per year vs one could mean some students concentrating more for that one shot to pass in 12 months. The large block of study leave also helps v perhaps a fortnight off for.your acca or Cima exams

mydiscworld

ACCA have posted their pass rates for all Fundamental and Professional Stage exams for period December 2007 to Dedecmber 2013

http://www.accaglobal.com/gb/en/student/acca-qual-student-journey/qual-resource/acca-qualification/pass-rates.html

First time I've noticed them publish it it this format. However, these are Global results, not just for Ireland.

Professional exam results Dec 2013 sitting
P1 48,P2 49,P3 49,P4 42,P5 30,P6 41,P7 33

cgma.org
CIMA (the Chartered Institute of Management Accountants) and the AICPA (American Institute of Certified Public Accountants) have launched a new global qualification - CGMA Chartered Global Management Accountant.

This will be an additional qualification alongside existing qualifications.

Popup Graphic:
http://www.cgma.org/BecomeACGMA/HowtoQualify/DownloadableDocuments/cgmaInfographicPopup.html

I saw elsewhere but can't find it now that students for both will sit the same case study.

I welcome this new qualification - I will be able to point to a potential American employer that my qualification is also offered by the AICPA.

Equally I have a dim memory of qualifications having to be vetted for SOX to see if they were sufficient.

mydiscworld

CPA’s 2009 to 2013 pass rates are available here

http://www.cpaireland.ie/docs/default-source/Students/pass-rates-for-cpa-ireland-examinations-from-2009-to-2013.pdf?sfvrsn=2

mydiscworld

I notice the CPA pass rates in 2013 for F1 exams jumped from 44% to 61%.

I know one year doesn't make a trend but one significant thing did happen in 2013. You can now do all CPA F1 exams in any order you like and do how many you like.

Before that I believe you had to sit all remaining exams in each sitting.

Should make for higher pass rates and potential better retention of students as they start reaping better rewards for their study efforts

smcgiff

mydiscworld wrote: »

I notice the CPA pass rates in 2013 for F1 exams jumped from 44% to 61%.

I know one year doesn't make a trend but one significant thing did happen in 2013. You can now do all CPA F1 exams in any order you like and do how many you like.

Before that I believe you had to sit all remaining exams in each sitting.

Should make for higher pass rates and potential better retention of students as they start reaping better rewards for their study efforts

CPA finally got there. Good to hear.

DoraExplora

Hi,
I'd like your views on doing CIMA exams post ACCA. I have the ACCA exams done 7 years ago, but being in the job market again and wanting to update knowledge I was looking at the CIMA exams. Getting exemption to management level and doing 3 exams E2 P2 F2, would give an advanced diploma in management accounting.

The course structure is changing in 2015 to computer based/case study.
Are these exams really tough/ would it be worth it?

I am looking to move into industry.
Thanks

mydiscworld

DoraExplora wrote: »

Hi,
I'd like your views on doing CIMA exams post ACCA. I have the ACCA exams done 7 years ago, but being in the job market again and wanting to update knowledge I was looking at the CIMA exams. Getting exemption to management level and doing 3 exams E2 P2 F2, would give an advanced diploma in management accounting.

The course structure is changing in 2015 to computer based/case study.
Are these exams really tough/ would it be worth it?

I am looking to move into industry.
Thanks

You may be able to simply become a CIMA based on your ACCA qualification. People switch bodies from time to time. Ask CIMA.

I know of at least two colleagues who switched from CPA to ACCA and just needed to do a quick interview