Overtaking legally on motorway

coolbeans

bazzachazza wrote: »

Doesn't answer fully this specific scenario Coolbeans.

I agree thats what the law says but does it cover being separated by two whole clear lanes. It needs to be updated IMHO I don't think the law has been updated to cover 3 lane roads let alone 3 laners with extra lane. What if said twat is doing 65k in that lane. What if you join doing 100k and pass him without knowing are you considered to be breaking the law.

Indeed, I was replying to Limklad. Should've used quotes.

coolbeans

bazzachazza wrote: »

Doesn't answer fully this specific scenario Coolbeans.

I agree thats what the law says but does it cover being separated by two whole clear lanes. It needs to be updated IMHO I don't think the law has been updated to cover 3 lane roads let alone 3 laners with extra lane. What if said twat is doing 65k in that lane. What if you join doing 100k and pass him without knowing are you considered to be breaking the law.

Haven't a clue. The law does seem to be a donkey in this situation though.

unkel

keithclancy wrote: »

I'm not saying it works in Germany either, I've moved out into the Overtaking lane to safely overtake trucks while doing around 200km/h and some left lane cruising toolbag flys up the overtaking lane flashing his lights to get out of the way. So you've a choice, sit there or pull in and agressively push on the brakes to slow down to the speed of the vehicle your overtaking.

i.e. I'd be in the overtaking lane overtaking, but wouldn't be overtaking fast enoughfor the gobshíte behind me.

It's gonna sound harsh and I don't want to be an arsehole here, but ultimately that's incompetent motorway driving. You should always know what speed any car behind you is doing. You should never have to force a car behind you to slow down.

sesna

unkel wrote: »

It's gonna sound harsh and I don't want to be an arsehole here, but ultimately that's incompetent motorway driving. You should always know what speed any car behind you is doing. You should never have to force a car behind you to slow down.

I completely disagree. It's the responsibility of the driver behind to adjust to traffic conditions ahead, especially if travelling well over 100mph on Autobahn, or blatantly braking the speed limit in the case of Ireland. Always seems ironic to me that some drivers in Ireland are so pedantic about the law on keeping left (flashing lights, mouthing off etc), but at the same time conveniently seem to forget the law on speed-limits while they are travelling at 100mph on a motorway.

Mr CJ

coolbeans wrote: »

From the RotR:

You must not overtake when

* You are at or near a pelican crossing, zebra crossing or at pedestrian signals.
* A traffic sign or road marking prohibits it.
* You are approaching a junction.
* You are on the approach to a corner, bend, dip in the road, hump-back bridge, brow of a hill or on a narrow road.
* You are in the left-hand lane of a dual carriageway or motorway when traffic is moving at normal speed.

So from this you can pass a vehicle on your right if they are moving slower than max speed allowed? which is what I thought in the first place, as for example I certainly would not drive behind some old dear driving at 50kph on a clear overtaking lane as I would risk someone plowing into me.

If you really are in a rush just stay in the left most lane its always empty, for some strange reason everyone is attracted to the overtaking lane or middle lane, I witnessed a car a couple of hundred meters behind me entering the motorway which was clear and steering all the way over to the fast lane... Irish motorists have atrocious lane discipline, even with 4 lanes on the m50 you still end up having to slow for some plonker hogging the overtaking lane

I always say if they built a motorway with 10 lanes in this country you will still have the same problem because very few drivers out there actually know how to drive proper

coolbeans

sesna wrote: »

I completely disagree. It's the responsibility of the driver behind to adjust to traffic conditions ahead, especially if travelling well over 100mph on Autobahn, or blatantly braking the speed limit in the case of Ireland. Always seems ironic to me that some drivers in Ireland are so pedantic about the law on keeping left (flashing lights, mouthing off etc), but at the same time conveniently seem to forget the law on speed-limits while they are travelling at 100mph on a motorway.

I disagree. Your maneuver shouldn't interfere with anyone else regardless of the speed the guy coming up behind you is doing. If he's going very fast and you can't match his speed if you pull out to overtake, well then, it's best to wait.

sesna

Mr CJ wrote: »

I always say if they built a motorway with 10 lanes in this country you will still have the same problem because very few drivers out there actually know how to drive proper

Lack of training in driving test. I know two people from Dublin who have passed their driving tests, one with a driving license for over ten years, but have never travelled on the M50 because they are too scared to. Incidentally they're both female (sorry).

CiniO

coolbeans wrote: »

From the RotR:

You must not overtake when

* You are at or near a pelican crossing, zebra crossing or at pedestrian signals.
* A traffic sign or road marking prohibits it.
* You are approaching a junction.
* You are on the approach to a corner, bend, dip in the road, hump-back bridge, brow of a hill or on a narrow road.
* You are in the left-hand lane of a dual carriageway or motorway when traffic is moving at normal speed.

RotR is just a book with guidelines how to behave on the road.
What really applies is a law. If I have time tomorrow, I'll go through Road Traffic Act and see if there is anything about it. Hope there is

2yung2adm

limklad wrote: »

Would you mind quoting the Piece of Law that you claim it is illegal.

I will quote it for you.

GENERAL BYELAWS 1964

SECTION 17(3)

A driver shall not drive from one traffic lane to another without good cause, and without yeilding the righ of way to traffic in that other lane.

That creates the offence

Mr CJ

2yung2adm wrote: »

I will quote it for you.

GENERAL BYELAWS 1964

SECTION 17(3)


That creates the offence

I am actually suprised someone asked you that in the first place lol I am sure most would assume this using common sense

sesna

Mr CJ wrote: »

So from this you can pass a vehicle on your right if they are moving slower than max speed allowed? which is what I thought in the first place, as for example I certainly would not drive behind some old dear driving at 50kph on a clear overtaking lane as I would risk someone plowing into me.

It referred to a situations you must not overtake in.

sesna

coolbeans wrote: »

I disagree. Your maneuvere shouldn't interfere with anyone else regardless of the speed the guy coming up behind you is doing. If he's going very fast and you can't match his speed if you pull out to overtake; well then, it's best to wait.

So if there is a broken down car up ahead in the travelling lane (on a two-lane motorway), I should come to a stop behind it rather than pull out into the overtaking lane. All so I wont slow down someone completely disregarding the speed-limit travelling at 100mph.

I would have no hesitation moving out unless I was certain I was going to be smashed into by the other driver in the overtaking lane. Let them contact the guards if they're concerned that I have slowed them down from 160km/p/h to 120km/p/h

Mr CJ

sesna wrote: »

It referred to a situations you must not overtake in.

Yeah exactly, thats what I said as in if traffic is not moving at normal speed (i assume below speed limit) then I assume you can pass?

I stand to be corrected and i understand them quotes are not law before someone points that out again

sesna

Mr CJ wrote: »

Yeah exactly, thats what I said as in if traffic is not moving at normal speed (i assume below speed limit) then I assume you can pass?

I stand to be corrected and i understand them quotes are not law before someone points that out again

You said "slower than the max speed allowed" though. Thats different to slow moving traffic queues in which overtaking on the left is allowed. Difference between a heavy traffic jam at 5pm rush hour and some bag travelling at 70km/p/h at midnight on the motorway.

Mr CJ

sesna wrote: »

Ah sorry, your post makes sense now.

Its after 12 and possibly past your bed time... its cool lol

sesna

Mr CJ wrote: »

Its after 12 and possibly past your bed time... its cool lol

I edited my last post though after re-reading. It is way past bed time so I may be wrong though

Mr CJ

sesna wrote: »

You said "slower than the max speed allowed" though. Thats different to slow moving traffic queues in which overtaking on the left is allowed. Difference between a heavy traffic jam at 5pm rush hour and some bag travelling at 70km/p/h at midnight on the motorway.

Yeah so if your driving down the motorway in the early hours of the morning and its clear but you come across a motorist doing say 90 on the fast lane, I would be very suprised that it would be illegal for me to pass him on my right, the mistake that alot of people do is change lane and go behind the slow car for a moment and sees that the slow car is making no attempt to move, then the driver at rear changes lane back and overtakes... when in the blind spot the slow car leaves the fast lane to clear it and could crash into overtaking car.

Your better off staying in the left lane in this situation and if the (slow) fast lane driver makes no attempt to change lane as your approaching cautiously pass on the left, its just using common sense and im sure any genuine cop would use the same and not say or do anything, but then again there are always cops that nit pick over ridiculous things

rubberdiddies

As happened to me today and on other occasions whilst driving at 100 alongside a car to my right driving at the same speed, the car to my right then slows down for no apparent reason to 90, do I also have to slow down to 90 to match his speed so I'm not overtaking him on the left?

sesna

rubberdiddies wrote: »

As happened to me today and on other occasions whilst driving at 100 alongside a car to my right driving at the same speed, the car to my right then slows down for no apparent reason to 90, do I also have to slow down to 90 to match his speed so I'm not overtaking him on the left?

Never thought of that, another anomaly in the law as it stands. Seems the only way to avoid breaking the law would be to outbrake the other driver, and be vigilant for drivers in the overtaking lane slowing down !

sesna

Mr CJ wrote: »

the mistake that alot of people do is change lane and go behind the slow car for a moment and sees that the slow car is making no attempt to move, then the driver at rear changes lane back and overtakes... when in the blind spot the slow car leaves the fast lane to clear it and could crash into overtaking car.

You have outlined a realistic scenario of what actually happens. But the whole premise of the thread is that it would actually be illegal to overtake the slower driver (even if approaching slowly and cautiously) on the left unless it is a slow moving traffic queue, and not just one car travelling slowly late at night. This applies to overtaking with or without changing lane as outlined in your example.

2yung2adm

bazzachazza wrote: »

I'm going to email a few people who are Supposed to know the law and finally get a professional opinion on this matter I would love to know once and for all what the law is.

THIS IS THE LAW ON THE MATTER
As I said in a previous post it is a grey area.

Sec 19 sub paragraph 3 of The General Byelaws 1964
Subparagraph 3 creates the regulation for overtaking and that is

A driver shall overtake on the right and shall not move in towards the left until it is safe to do so.

Sec 19 sub paragraph 4 of The General Byelaws 1964
gives permission to overtake on the inside in certain circumstances
it states

19(4) Notwithstanding paragraph (3) of this bye-law, a driver may overtake on the left—
(a) where the driver of the vehicle about to be overtaken has signalled his intention to turn to the right and the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after having overtaken, to go straight ahead or to turn to the left,

my note: This does not apply to a motorway for obvious reasons.

19(c) in slow-moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver's right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicle.

my note: This applies to to all traffic situations whether on a motorway or otherwise.
We now come to Section 19 (b) General Byelaws 1964
This is the grey area

19(b) where the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after having overtaken, to turn left at a road junction and has signalled this intention

This section of the R.T.A. General Byelaws 1964 can be interpreted as meaning that

if you are intending to exit left at a junction you may overtake on the inside with the caveat that you must turn left after having overtaken and you must have signalled your intention.
Can this be used in an auxilliary lane? I do not think so as it could mean that you will have to drive perhaps for some miles with your indicator on.

I believe that it may only be used at the exit slip road.

A judge would take a very dim view of any driver involved in an incident while abusing the system

sesna

2yung2adm wrote: »

This section of the R.T.A. General Byelaws 1964 can be interpreted as meaning that if you are intending to exit left at a junction you may overtake on the inside with the caveat that you must turn left after having overtaking and you must have signalled your intention.

Did not realise that using indicator during driving manouver is outlined in the law. Seems unusual that its possible to be in contravention of a law if the bulb has blown in the indicator, unbeknownst to the driver.

2yung2adm

Mr CJ wrote: »

I am actually suprised someone asked you that in the first place lol I am sure most would assume this using common sense

Yes, for safe driving common sense has to be used both in driving and interpreting the rules and regulations, coupled with defensive driving

2yung2adm

CiniO wrote: »

RotR is just a book with guidelines how to behave on the road.
What really applies is a law. If I have time tomorrow, I'll go through Road Traffic Act and see if there is anything about it. Hope there is

The Road Traffic Acts are not guidelines. They create the rules, regulations and penalties and bring the aforesaid into Law. They give the Gardai their powers and the Judges their authorisations to implement a penalty.
Perhaps what you mean is that the interpretation of the regulations may appear to differ from the written word as these rules and regulations cannot allow for all situations.

2yung2adm

sesna wrote: »

Did not realise that using indicator during driving manouver is outlined in the law. Seems unusual that its possible to be in contravention of a law if the bulb has blown in the indicator, unbeknownst to the driver.

Signalling the intention is not qualified in the legislation as to whether it has to be a mechanical means or if a hand signal would suffice in that situation.
BTY an indicator bulb will not blow unbeknown to you as the tell tale light on the dash-and that is a legal requirement- will flash at twice the speed when a bulb blows.
You would be in trouble if you pleaded that in a court lol.

coolbeans

CiniO wrote: »

RotR is just a book with guidelines how to behave on the road.
What really applies is a law. If I have time tomorrow, I'll go through Road Traffic Act and see if there is anything about it. Hope there is

I think that's silly. The RotR is the motorist's bible in Ireland. It may be full of deficiencies and need updating but if what's written in there cannot be interpreted as law by the layman I think there is something seriously wrong.

djimi

I was of the impression that the rules of the road was the law just written in laymans terms? As in if you go against the rules of the road you are actually breaking the law, its just worded differently in actual law? Is there something Im missing here?

2yung2adm

djimi wrote: »

I was of the impression that the rules of the road was the law just written in laymans terms? As in if you go against the rules of the road you are actually breaking the law, its just worded differently in actual law? Is there something Im missing here?

The rules of the road are a simplified version of the S.Is that create the regulations and thus the law on the matter.
When push comes to shove its the legislation that will be relied upon.

Same situation as a certificate of insurance. It gives the outline and satisfies the requirements of The Road Traffic Act but it is the policy document that will be relied upon when something happens.
How many of you have read your policy document.? I think you will get some nasty shocks when you do.

cyclopath2001

2yung2adm wrote: »

THIS IS THE LAW ON THE MATTER

Sec 19 sub paragraph 3 of The General Byelaws 1964

NO IT IS NOT!

Those bye-laws were revoked in 1997 and replaced by new regulations.

Regulation 10 is relevant:

10. (1) A driver shall not overtake, or attempt to overtake, if to do so would endanger, or cause inconvenience to, any other person....

(4) Subject to the provisions of sub-article (5), a driver shall overtake on the right and shall not move in towards the left until it is safe to do so.

(5) A driver may only overtake on the left—

( a ) where the driver of the vehicle about to be overtaken has signalled an intention to turn to the right and the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after overtaking, to go straight ahead or to turn to the left,

( b ) where the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after overtaking, to turn left at the next road junction and has signalled this intention,

( c ) in slow moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver's right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicle.

The most important bit is paragraph 1.

daveharnett

What is the sanction for failing to keep left?
It strikes me that one unmarked TC car doing nothing else for a month could sort this out (and pay for itself if fines apply). I reckon a single car could get through about 20 stops per shift on the M50?