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Correct cornering in Front Wheel Drive?

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    #92
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    djimi wrote: »
    Depends on which way its turning. A car turning right will understeer towards the ditch, however a car turning left will understeer out onto the far side of the road.

    + 1

    50/50 I would think


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    #93
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    no, its not. They are much cheaper and simpler to make than RWD. this is pretty much the only reason they are around.

    Thats a different issue.

    The point was the coincidence of head ons and FWD drive cars.


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    #94
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    djimi wrote: »
    Depends on which way its turning. A car turning right will understeer towards the ditch, however a car turning left will understeer out onto the far side of the road.

    True, I was fixating on the negative camber mention in the OP.

    Though I don't think (my assumption) its a cause of head on crashes. It appears (to me) to be mainly people overtaking and/or losing control of the car and glancing off something.


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    #95
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    I agree, Id imagine that understeer accounts for only a small portion of head on crashes, and its most likely bad overtaking manouevers or people losing control (skidding)/concentration that accounts for the majority of them. Even in the case of where understeer is the cause, Id be much quicker to point out that the excessive speed was the cause of the accident rather than the resultant understeer.


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    #96
    itarumaa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 704 ✭✭✭itarumaa


    Every winter in Finland people crash and die in fwd cars because lift off over streering,

    they overtake a car in front, turn too aggressively to get back in own lane, panic, lift off, the rear of the car goes loose and then collision with the oncoming traffic.

    Fwd car is safe(r) than rwd car in winter, but it can still suprise you and if you do not know what to, well then usually it is a major problem, specially in high speeds.


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    #97
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Is that on snow, because I don't get how you could break traction just pulling into lane otherwise.


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    #98
    itarumaa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 704 ✭✭✭itarumaa


    BostonB wrote: »
    Is that on snow, because I don't get how you could break traction just pulling into lane otherwise.

    Yes, in snow/ice covered roads. Altough winter tyres make a big difference, still this could happen.


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    #99
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Stupidity is not the fault of FWD.


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    #100
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,620 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    ianobrien wrote: »
    The main thing when driving a FWD is not to lift off the power mid corner.

    Ah but that's where the fun begins, it's called lift-off oversteer and is the second way other than using the handbrake to get the back to step out.
    Some FWD cars will behave in that way, Ford Focus with the nicer suspension does that, fun on roundabouts.
    Other cars, mostly the ones that use an iron girder for rear suspension will not do that no matter what you do.
    It is the one thing that makes a FWD car bearable, go into corner too fast, loose grip up front, lift off accelerator, back steps out, apply opposite lock and drift through corner sideways.
    Of course this should never be done on a public road...


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    #101
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Because people end up going backward through the hedge or backwards on the wrong side of the road.


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    #102
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,126 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    BostonB wrote: »
    I think a more reasonable reason is that modern cars have an excess of grip and power compared to older cars. So people (especially in experienced drivers) are over confident and try things they wouldn't in a car with less power and less grip. So through bad judgment and over confidence they end up on the wrong side of the road more often than they used to, and at higher speeds than in the past.
    I would agree there. Ironically the safety features designed to save people too often give people way too much confidence in their own abilities and in the ability of the safety features to get them out of trouble and/or save their lives. They forget that the safety features like crumple zones, airbags etc are designed to mitigate the forces of a crash at 30/40 MPH. Too many reckon the same stuff will work the same way at 70 or 80. Add in the feeling in many cars of being quite disconnected from the road and driving and it compounds the issue IMHO. YOu see this with people driving four wheel drives in slippy conditions. Driving way too fast for the conditions, full sure that the AWD will drag them out. Look at all the eejits who got stuck up the wicklow mountains doing some sightseeing in last winters snow.
    Its just coincidence that there more fwd cars around now.
    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    no, its not. They are much cheaper and simpler to make than RWD. this is pretty much the only reason they are around.
    +1. They're far cheaper to manufacture. Same reason you have mcpherson struts on most cars now and not double wishbones. Nada to do with quality, the best engineering solution or safety and all(or mostly) to do with costs. A lot of the notions of the safety of FWD cars came originally from the manufacturers trying to sell the idea to the public. The other advantage to FWD is that you can have a bigger cabin as the propshaft doesnt impinge on the inside and you're installing the engine transversally.
    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Other cars, mostly the ones that use an iron girder for rear suspension will not do that no matter what you do.
    Dunno about that there are quite a few torsion bar cars that will give you lift off oversteer. The old 205 Gti was a charm for it(in a good way control wise)
    It is the one thing that makes a FWD car bearable, go into corner too fast, loose grip up front, lift off accelerator, back steps out, apply opposite lock and drift through corner sideways.
    Of course this should never be done on a public road...
    It helps if you have an LSD too. Like you said doing that on a public road is beyond daft. If I was driving like that, then I better have a close relative in dire need of a hospital in the passenger seat. Keep it for the track where the surface is consistent, you've got a safety run off and everyone is going the same way.
    BostonB wrote: »
    Stupidity is not the fault of FWD.
    That much is so true.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #103
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Wibbs wrote: »
    ...
    +1. They're far cheaper to manufacture. Same reason you have mcpherson struts on most cars now and not double wishbones. Nada to do with quality, the best engineering solution or safety and all(or mostly) to do with costs. A lot of the notions of the safety of FWD cars came originally from the manufacturers trying to sell the idea to the public. The other advantage to FWD is that you can have a bigger cabin as the propshaft doesnt impinge on the inside and you're installing the engine transversally.....

    Just to clarify I was quoted out of context, and you're doing it again. AFAIK I never made a connection between the popularity of FWD and safety. I was referring to the suggestion there was a link between FWD cars and head on crashes.

    On a separate point, its not a notion that under-steer is easier to correct than over-steer. Indeed many cars (FWD and RWD) have extra under-steer added by design to make them easier for the average joe.
    It is common practice among automobile manufacturers to configure production cars deliberately to have a slight linear range understeer by default. If a car understeers slightly, it tends to be more stable (within the realms of a driver of average ability)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Understeer


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    #104
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I would agree there. Ironically the safety features designed to save people too often give people way too much confidence in their own abilities and in the ability of the safety features to get them out of trouble and/or save their lives. They forget that the safety features like crumple zones, airbags etc are designed to mitigate the forces of a crash at 30/40 MPH. Too many reckon the same stuff will work the same way at 70 or 80. Add in the feeling in many cars of being quite disconnected from the road and driving and it compounds the issue IMHO. YOu see this with people driving four wheel drives in slippy conditions. Driving way too fast for the conditions, full sure that the AWD will drag them out. Look at all the eejits who got stuck up the wicklow mountains doing some sightseeing in last winters snow.


    God yeah.
    One of the worst, most idiotic, stupidest pieces of driving I saw was last Jan in Wicklow mountains. Some fuck-muppet* in a huge rangerover can around a corner at about 60mph (yes 60mph on the snowiest day!) and nearly rear ended some poor woman and her daughter who had just pulled out at a junction the other side of the corner. I still can't believe he stopped in time. It was so stupid I nearly lost it and would have had a go at the guy were I a bit closer and I was just walking along. Poor woman must have been terrified.


    * I just made this up to find a suitable term for this idiot an hereby copyright the word


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    #105
    Esel
    Registered Users Posts: 22,148 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    itarumaa wrote: »
    Every winter in Finland....
    BostonB wrote: »
    Is that on snow?
    Doh! :D

    Not your ornery onager



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    #106
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    esel wrote: »
    Doh! :D

    Doh yourself. They actually manage to clear roads in finland unlike Ireland.

    http://www.tiehallinto.fi/servlet/page?_pageid=71&_dad=julia&_schema=PORTAL30&menu=4864&_pageid=71&kieli=en&linkki=7607&julkaisu=3087

    So who's to know what conditions he was on about.


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    #107
    kyote00
    Registered Users Posts: 1,572 ✭✭✭kyote00


    are you seriously suggesting some try this ****e on a normal road (or bend)

    heel and toe ffs
    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Approach the corner on the opposite side, left for right and vise versa, remember your braking point.

    racing_line.png
    Change gear before you're in the corner, heel and toe, i.e. blip throttle to get revs up with your heel while your toe is on the clutch so as to not loose speed when you switch down a gear as the engine will be at correct revs.
    Make sure to kiss the apex of the corner, don't throttle up yet and after the car has straightened put the foot down.
    Of course it might be different on the track...


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