Correct cornering in Front Wheel Drive?

CiniO

Mr.David wrote: »

I know what you mean, but I don't think I agree. I think you should brake slightly below the cornering speed limit and then throttle through the corner - so in effect the car is 'dragged' through the corner by the accelerating force and as such has less lateral force acting on it (so rolls less through the corner).

Was I said was pure physics. If tyre works with some force (accelerating or braking) then a grip to the side (needed on the corners) is smaller. If you want I can try to find correct calculations for it.

On the other hand though, if the car has a tendency to oversteer, sligh acceleration is needed, as then the back of the car will be heavier and it will provide a better grip for the rear wheels.
In a car with tendency to understeer, the way I described would be probably the best - to keep to most grip for front tyres.

I was taught that if you find yourself half way through a corner and going too fast that you should slam on the brakes briefly. DO NOT feather the brakes or you will likely end up in the ditch. Its a result of weight transfer etc.

It depands. If you realise in the middle of the corner, then you are going too fast and f.e. the corner tightens, then slightly braking might help. Remember though, that any braking in the corner might make the car skid - even if you have ABS, ESP, etc.
If you are in the situation that your car already started skiding the front wheels on the corner, and what actually is happening is a car turning less then it should turn according to how much you turned the steering wheel (because front wheels skid on the side) slightly breaking won't help. You have to reduce speed as fast as possible, otherwise you will end up outside the road. Easier is the option with slamming on a brakes for a moment (might be even less that 1/4 sec). This will make car go ever further outside the corner, but it will reduce speed, and when brake is released, then car should turn according to how much the steering wheel is turned. Other way with making a car to skid it's rear wheels with pushing a brake with left foot while accelerating with right foot is very difficult, and needs loadz of training.

The stages I use (and was taught) are:

1. Evaluate - road condition, vanishing point, weather, oncoming traffic, mud/oil etc etc

2. Position - position yourself correctly (on your side of the road only obviously) relative to the direction of the bend.

3. Brake - in a straight line brake down to the required entry speed.

So far I agree. The only thing - we can almost always hear that you need to brake before the bend. That only applies while the speed is higher that speed we car go through the bend.
Let's say safe speed on the bend would be 90km/h, so someone going 110km/h will have to brake, but someone going 70km/h can go through the bend without doing anything.

Mr.David

CiniO wrote: »

Was I said was pure physics. If tyre works with some force (accelerating or braking) then a grip to the side (needed on the corners) is smaller. If you want I can try to find correct calculations for it.

I don't agree. Based on what you are saying, the fastest way around a corner is in neutral (i.e. no accelerative/deccelerative force only 100% lateral).

CiniO

Mr.David wrote: »

I don't agree. Based on what you are saying, the fastest way around a corner is in neutral (i.e. no accelerative/deccelerative force only 100% lateral).

That's true if you assume the car is perfectly balanced (not oversteering or understeeing).

But as perfectly balanced cars don't exist in real world, you need to be on the gear and operate the accelerator to maintain stability.

2yung2adm

All I can say is I would hate to be the car coming in the opposite direction meeting many of the posters.
Before you enter a bend you take cognisance of the road conditions, weather conditions and amount of traffic on the road or expected to be on the road, to include pedestrians and the vehicle you are driving.

You adjust your speed accordingly-if necessary- by initially lifting off on the accelerator or by applying the brakes if you have not reacted in time.
You do not use your gears to slow the car down - You gear down to go not to slow. Gearing down upsets the balance of the braking system front and rear and you will finish up with over braking on the driving wheels. And of course from another point of view it is a lot easier and cheaper to renew a set of brake pads.
Having adjusted your speed on the straight approach you will also select a gear-if necessary- that gives you instant acceleration above the momentum of the car.

On a left hand bend you will take up position near to the centre line of the road if it is safe to do so-taking into account the road traffic act that states that you keep as close as possible to the left hand side of the roadway-The reason you take up a position towards the centre of the roadway is that it allows you see any obstructions on your side of the road earlier, be it a slow moving vehicle, a stationary obstruction or pedestrians. You mantain a gentle acceleration around the bend ahead of the momentum of the car and you accelerate to the desired speed as you exit. Very simple very straighforward without all this heeling and toeing and what ever you do try, do not try and heel and toe the clutch and accelerator as suggested. From an advanced driver.
Now, what do you do in a series of bends?

Esel

2yung2adm wrote: »

...what ever you do try, do not try and heel and toe the clutch and accelerator as suggested.

I know you meant 'brake and accelerator'.

2yung2adm

esel wrote: »

I know you meant 'brake and accelerator'.

No, no, I was referring to a previous post that stated "Clutch and accelerator"!! this remark was to emphasise what is being written here.

Esel

2yung2adm wrote: »

No, no, I was referring to a previous post that stated "Clutch and accelerator"!! this remark was to emphasise what is being written here.

Ah right - I didn't spot that in a previous post. You could have made it a bit more obvious that was your point, though!

ianobrien

Right, here's my two cents on how go drive a front wheel drive. I'll preface this by saying that most of what I've learned was driving hot hatches in low grip situations, ie gravel and mud lanes.

The main thing when driving a FWD is not to lift off the power mid corner. Left foot braking can help settle the car over bumps, but keep the power on is the key. Brake before the corner, and if you reckon you're going too fast, turn in anyway. If the car is understeering, a pick of the handbrake is needed, while keeping the throttle wide open. Having said that, modern cars have massive levels of grip, and 99% of people never get near the limits of the car in normal day to day driving.

On dry tarmac, you'll only start to run out of grip when the tyres stop squealing. If they are still making noise, they're fine. As an example, I've often entered roundabouts at 70kph in the dry with no problems.

When the grip is low, I've learned to accelerate before the corner, and not lift. Braking into a corner promotes understeer, and lifting off mid corner typically reduces rear end grip due to weight transfer to the front. Lifting off the throttle in the AX GT on low grip situations would result in lift-off oversteer (usually corrected with the throttle wide open)

Just in case you peg me as a hooligan and boy racer, I have learned all this by driving on mud lanes, gravel lanes and quarries, wet grassy fields etc. The principles are the same, it's just things happen quicker on the road....

meathstevie

-Chris- wrote: »

Get yourself a copy of Roadcraft OP, it'll tell you all you need to know about cornering safely on the road.

+1 It's dry as cereal without milk to read but it's THE driving manual to get. I've done an advanced driving course entirely based on it and I came out the other end driving faster ( alerter and more responsive is probably a better way of putting it ), smoother, more in control AND safer. And I wasn't exactly an unexperienced driver before either.

Esel

meathstevie wrote: »

I've done an advanced driving course entirely based on it.

Where, and how much?

BostonB

2yung2adm wrote: »

...You do not use your gears to slow the car down - You gear down to go not to slow. Gearing down upsets the balance of the braking system front and rear and you will finish up with over braking on the driving wheels. And of course from another point of view it is a lot easier and cheaper to renew a set of brake pads........

You mean engine braking. So named because uses the engine not the gears, and it doesn't wear anything out anymore than driving does, and done properly you don't use the brakes at all.
Its most practical use is down hills or mountains to save your brakes from overheating and failing.

and...

2yung2adm wrote: »

You adjust your speed accordingly-if necessary- by initially lifting off on the accelerator .......

...this is engine braking...

Donnelly117

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

heel and toe, i.e. blip throttle to get revs up with your heel while your toe is on the clutch so as to not loose speed
Of course it might be different on the track...

jesus, how big are your feet?

-Chris-

ianobrien wrote: »

Right, here's my two cents on how go drive a front wheel drive. I'll preface this by saying that most of what I've learned was driving hot hatches in low grip situations, ie gravel and mud lanes.

The main thing when driving a FWD is not to lift off the power mid corner. Left foot braking can help settle the car over bumps, but keep the power on is the key. Brake before the corner, and if you reckon you're going too fast, turn in anyway. If the car is understeering, a pick of the handbrake is needed, while keeping the throttle wide open. Having said that, modern cars have massive levels of grip, and 99% of people never get near the limits of the car in normal day to day driving.

On dry tarmac, you'll only start to run out of grip when the tyres stop squealing. If they are still making noise, they're fine. As an example, I've often entered roundabouts at 70kph in the dry with no problems.

When the grip is low, I've learned to accelerate before the corner, and not lift. Braking into a corner promotes understeer, and lifting off mid corner typically reduces rear end grip due to weight transfer to the front. Lifting off the throttle in the AX GT on low grip situations would result in lift-off oversteer (usually corrected with the throttle wide open)

Just in case you peg me as a hooligan and boy racer, I have learned all this by driving on mud lanes, gravel lanes and quarries, wet grassy fields etc. The principles are the same, it's just things happen quicker on the road....

Do you regularly practice these techniques on public roads?

djimi

-Chris- wrote: »

Do you regularly practice these techniques on public roads?

I think (hope) he may have missed the point of the thread and is referring to rally driving. I hope...

He mentioned a couple of times that he learned these techniques off road, I would be 99% sure he doesn't drive like that on public roads.

-Chris-

Well then I'm not sure if the advice is relevant at all.

(also, the reference to "often entered roundabouts..." gave me the impression that it was learned on gravel/mud but is being used on public roads. Maybe I'm just being paranoid ).

I've entered roundabouts at 70kph too

-Chris-

RoverJames wrote: »

I've entered roundabouts at 70kph too

Oh, me too, and on some roundabouts it'll feel terribly slow, and on others it'll be lunatic fast (and I'm sure we've done both).

If you're left foot braking and feeling the necessity to give a dab of handbrake to correct the understeer, you're probably overcooking it a little too much...

itarumaa

ianobrien wrote: »

The main thing when driving a FWD is not to lift off the power mid corner. Left foot braking can help settle the car over bumps, but keep the power on is the key. Brake before the corner, and if you reckon you're going too fast, turn in anyway. If the car is understeering, a pick of the handbrake is needed, while keeping the throttle wide open. Having said that, modern cars have massive levels of grip, and 99% of people never get near the limits of the car in normal day to day driving.

Well, based on my experience driving in winter with fwd car, handbrake is way too on-off tool to correct the car handling. So if you get understeer, I think lift off would be a better idea, of course depending a lot of situation. Left foot braking is even better (IF you know what you are doing), but handbrake is hard to control accurately.

The only issue with lift off is that when car turns to oversteer, it is important to keep the throttle open and do only small corrections with the steering wheel.

djimi

itarumaa wrote: »

Well, based on my experience driving in winter with fwd car, handbrake is way too on-off tool to correct the car handling. So if you get understeer, I think lift off would be a better idea, of course depending a lot of situation. Left foot braking is even better (IF you know what you are doing), but handbrake is hard to control accurately.

The only issue with lift off is that when car turns to oversteer, it is important to keep the throttle open and do only small corrections with the steering wheel.

The idea of suggesting that anyone use the handbrake to correct the handling in the car shows either how out of touch with reality the guy is or else that he really is talking about purely off road driving. For normal road use the handbrake is there solely to keep the car stationary, nothing else! Most people would sh1t bricks if they pulled up the handbrake while the car was moving, especially if they were taking a corner at the time...

stevenmu

Whether the above rally techniques are used on the road or not, I would suggest that most drivers would need to practice them a lot on gravel/dirt first before trying them on a public tarmac road. Getting them wrong could make a bad situation a lot worse.

Personally when I've found myself going too quick into a bend, I've found gently lifting off has been enough to correct the understeer and get me around ok. Lifting off sharply can make the back end unstable or even step out, but a gentle progressive lift is enough to give a good bit of extra grip to the front without risking the back much. The key is to begin lifting as soon as you realise you are too fast in the bend, ideally even before you start drifting to the outside. The longer you leave it, the more dramatic a correction you need, do it early enough and it's just a gentle bit of a lift and a gentle correction on the steering.

Of course that doesn't help much if you go in way way too fast, but if that's happening to people they really need to look at their general driving habits.

ianobrien

-Chris- wrote: »

Well then I'm not sure if the advice is relevant at all.

(also, the reference to "often entered roundabouts..." gave me the impression that it was learned on gravel/mud but is being used on public roads. Maybe I'm just being paranoid ).

If you want to know how relevant it is, it's all about learning what to do if the car does get away from you on a road. Things happen much slower on mud/gravel/grass and you've got time to try differnet things. Also, if you make a balls of it, the accident will be much slower and usually result only in dented pride (usually in front of your mates).

Another benefit of continued driving on low grip surfaces is that the correct reaction will come naturally, and can be of use when driving on the public road. The car will behave in the same way, it's just that everything happens at a higher speed, and you'll have less time to react. If you've got a slide while driving on the public road, and you've got to think about what to to, it's too late.

As for lifting off mid corner, in the AX GT and the 205GTi, lifting off mid corner usually resulted in oversteer. Lifting off in the Almera just unsettles the back a fraction. It's all about the type of car.

ianobrien

RoverJames wrote: »

He mentioned a couple of times that he learned these techniques off road, I would be 99% sure he doesn't drive like that on public roads.

Yep, it's about learning how to drive. I've never driven like that on public roads, but plenty of times on private roads, lanes, closed roads etc...

Remember the bad frost and snow we had after Christmas when the country came to a stop. I was out driving in that weather, and I was comfortable driving in that low grip, as I knew how the car would react.

ianobrien

djimi wrote: »

The idea of suggesting that anyone use the handbrake to correct the handling in the car shows either how out of touch with reality the guy is or else that he really is talking about purely off road driving. For normal road use the handbrake is there solely to keep the car stationary, nothing else! Most people would sh1t bricks if they pulled up the handbrake while the car was moving, especially if they were taking a corner at the time...

If you're in Cork, PM me and I'll show you what I mean. Yes I've picked the handbrake mid corner before, and yes most people would have a heart attack but they dont realise that the handbrake can be used when driving.

Using the handbrake is usually a last resort, and is generally used when all that's left is to hit the ditch.

Having said that, cars with drum brakes have much better handbrakes;)

-Chris-

ianobrien wrote: »

Yep, it's about learning how to drive. I've never driven like that on public roads, but plenty of times on private roads, lanes, closed roads etc...

Fair enough, but the OP is asking about how to corner safely (quickly?) on public roads and so I feel most of the techniques you mentioned aren't relevant to that question and I feel the OP shouldn't be practising those techniques.

Unless the OP is driving in extremes of weather (as you've pointed out), they should be using their anticipation and observation to ensure that they're driving within their limits and not getting into this kind of trouble in the first place.

djimi

Ian alas Im not in Cork but thank for offer :P

Im afraid Im going to have to disagree with you on the handbrake. Im not disagreeing that it cant be used to fix the situation, I know it can, but I would wager than if 99% of drivers on the road were to try and use the handbrake to correct severe oversteer, even as a last resort, they would make the situation worse, not better. Same goes for left foot braking; without experience or some prior training most people would send themselves out the windscreen if they tried left foot braking! Those kind of techniques require a skill level that I dont think a lot of drivers have. Maybe Im selling motorists short tho...

BostonB

Part of the attraction of FWD cars is they are easy to recover, most will come back into line if you lift off the throttle. Very very few will snap into oversteer. If you are under steering in corners you need to slow down. Simple as that. You are driving on or past both your won and the cars limits and you have no margin for error.

Drivers need to realise when they are going too fast.

buckled

BostonB wrote: »

Drivers need to realise when they are going too fast.

Unfortunately by the time most drivers realise there driving too fast, it’s too late. I sure most people have under estimated the severity of a bend at some stage or maybe it tightened mid corner.

Sure, some of the techniques above have no place on public roads, but understanding and learning how to deal with the situation, should it arise, could save yours or somebody else’s life.

In my opinion, we lack some of the basic skills when it comes to driving. We should all be trained on how to deal with understeer, oversteer, skids and low grip diving conditions.

Joe 90

buckled wrote: »

In my opinion, we lack some of the basic skills when it comes to driving. We should all be trained on how to deal with understeer, oversteer, skids and low grip diving conditions.

I suspect that really some people want to drive as a method of transport and don't really have any interest in it. They learn to pass a driveing test. Other people have in interest in driveing and learn to drive.

djimi

buckled wrote: »

In my opinion, we lack some of the basic skills when it comes to driving. We should all be trained on how to deal with understeer, oversteer, skids and low grip diving conditions.

I dont consider learning how to use the handbrake while driving or left foot braking to be basic skills of driving tbf. If we thought people to read the conditions more effectively and avoid putting themselves in situations where they have to use techniques like that then that would be far more valuable.

Its hard enough learning how to drive when you start out, a lot of people have trouble grasping the basics such as how to use their indicators and how to use a roundabout, let alone trying to teach them advanced driving techniques...