Correct cornering in Front Wheel Drive?

woody33

I've been driving FWD for a long time and seem to get around corners fine, but I would like advice or a link about the best way to corner. I suppose brake, half throttle around and accelerate as you straighten up? Sometimes I find myself in a fast corner with bad camber and running a bit wide and a good understanding of the dynamics would be nice. Ta.

Is this for road driving ? Hopefully not. For road driving advanced driving folks reckon you should take corners closer to the white line than the verge. On the track it's totally different.

Martron

woody33 wrote: »

I've been driving FWD for a long time and seem to get around corners fine, but I would like advice or a link about the best way to corner. I suppose brake, half throttle around and accelerate as you straighten up? Sometimes I find myself in a fast corner with bad camber and running a bit wide and a good understanding of the dynamics would be nice. Ta.

if you were running wide you going too fast.

woody33

Yes road driving. Going too fast maybe, but I'd still like to know how to handle the situation.

djimi

Take the corner at the correct speed and you wont have to worry about it.

FWD cars understeer, which means then when you power on they tend to drift outwards away from the apex of the corner (Im talking about at speed; under normal driving conditions you wont notice it). The way I have always learned is to brake sufficiently so that you can take the corner safely, hold enough power to take the corner and accelorate out of the corner as you straighten.

Martron

in a situation like that especially if you are caught out you could experience something called lift off over steer. which essentially means when you stop applying power to the front wheels they grip again and the back could step out.

dr.fuzzenstein

Approach the corner on the opposite side, left for right and vise versa, remember your braking point.


Change gear before you're in the corner, heel and toe, i.e. blip throttle to get revs up with your heel while your toe is on the clutch so as to not loose speed when you switch down a gear as the engine will be at correct revs.
Make sure to kiss the apex of the corner, don't throttle up yet and after the car has straightened put the foot down.
Of course it might be different on the track...

Martron

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoICf55jED8

Tipp Man

If you are going wide in a bend to me it indicates that you are in too high a gear and going too fast

On our country roads most bends should be taken in 3rd gear allowing the driver to be in control of the car and not running wide

firefly08

You can start to add the throttle before you are fully straightened up...can't really explain how you know when it's safe, you get a feel for it though...

You want to brake in a straight line obviously, then ease off the brake as you steer around the corner, then ease back onto the power as you straighten up - it's as if your right foot is tied to the steering wheel: steering wheel goes one way, foot goes up (off the brake), steering wheel goes the other way, foot goes down (on the power)

Also obviously make sure you pick a low enough gear, that has a big affect on safety and how tightly you take the corner.

But for gods sake don't treat the road like a racetrack. If you do find yourself going round a bend too fast, be careful to brake gently, adjusting your braking in either direction in a corner can be dangerous!

Bonito

woody33 wrote: »

Yes road driving. Going too fast maybe, but I'd still like to know how to handle the situation.

I find using my brake, the middle pedal, to slow before the corner helps, a lot. Depending on how tight the corner is I may continue braking 'til I need to drop a gear, maybe even 2.

I then slowly accelerate as I come out of the bend while straightening up the wheel.

woody33

Good stuff, keep it coming. I never did master heel-and-toe, you mean blip throttle with toe on brake, I take it?

Bonito

woody33 wrote: »

Good stuff, keep it coming. I never did master heel-and-toe, you mean blip throttle with toe on brake, I take it?

Blip the throttle while dropping a gear to make the gear change smoother.

djimi

woody33 wrote: »

Good stuff, keep it coming. I never did master heel-and-toe, you mean blip throttle with toe on brake, I take it?

If youre driving a road car on a normal road (ie not in Mondello on a track day) then you do not need to heel and toe, double clutch, or anything like that.

Its somewhat worrying that you are asking about racing techniques while presumably taking about driving on the road...

dr.fuzzenstein

Bonito wrote: »

Blip the throttle while dropping a gear to make the gear change smoother.

Heel and toe is actually braking and blipping the accelerator at the same time with your right foot.

Here's an article:

http://www.diseno-art.com/tutorials/heel_and_toeing.html

and here's a picture:



Once again, all of this is absloutely useless to you outside a race track. Unless you need to get your time to the shops down by a couple of tenths.

Bonito

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Heel and toe is actually braking and blipping the accelerator at the same time with your right foot.

Here's an article:

http://www.diseno-art.com/tutorials/heel_and_toeing.html

and here's a picture:



Once again, all of this is absloutely useless to you outside a race track. Unless you need to get your time to the shops down by a couple of tenths.

3 pedals. 2 feet. Does not compute. :pac:

woody33

I don't think i'm boy-racering around the back roads, and my usual ride is a little 1 litre Polo on skinny tyres, but I enjoy it and want to keep safe, so any extra knowledge on dynamics would be useful and help keep me out of trouble. An advanced driving course would be great but you know how it is...time and money (and geograohy). Must try left foot braking (not).

Joe 90

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Heel and toe is actually braking and blipping the accelerator at the same time with your right foot.

Once again, all of this is absloutely useless to you outside a race track. Unless you need to get your time to the shops down by a couple of tenths.

Not quite true about it being useless. With a non synchromesh gearbox you just don't have a choice. You have to double clutch. OK not many non synchro boxes around now but its not that long ago that you found them in a lot of trucks.
Pretty pointless though driveing a road car at road speeds.

Owen

Don't mind the heel-toe/which side of the road stuff. Only applicable if you're on the track.

The best way to corner regardless of the car you're in is to visualise the point where the left hand side of the road and right hand side of the road meet in the corner. It's called the vanishing/limiting point. As you drive into a corner, the ideal scenario is to have this point moving away from you at a constant speed that your car is matching. If it's moving towards you, you're going too fast and you need to brake. If it's moving away, you need to accelerate.

Ideally you'll go into the corner matching the vanishing point, and after you've gone through the apex, the point should move away rapidly, allowing you to accelerate out of the corner.

mickdw

I dont understand all the people telling the OP he is going too fast.
Is there anyone here who hasnt gone into a corner & almost got caught out? I certainly have specially when driving **** box of a car therefore any tips the OP can get are going to help.

I know exacty what you are talking about OP. You go into an unknown off camber bend at a speed which would be perfectly safe if the road was cambered properly & you find the front scrubing wide.
A Polo can easily be made to understeer or oversteer depending on driving style. If you run it into a bend in too high a gear with the effect of the engine almost dragging you along, it will tend to slide wide. You are then caught in the middle of the bend in a high gear & with limited options.
I would tend to be in a lower gear. braking into the bend, loading up the front wheels and getting a pretty certain turn in. Even with a low powered front drive car, you can then play with the accelerator to control it through the bend, whereas if stuck in top gear, you really cannot.

Matt Simis

mickdw wrote: »

I dont understand all the people telling the OP he is going too fast.
Is there anyone here who hasnt gone into a corner & almost got caught out? I certainly have specially when driving **** box of a car therefore any tips the OP can get are going to help.

Not really no, though in my FWD car it is a lot more prone almost getting to that point. But there is still plenty of steering traction left to correct.

djimi

mickdw wrote: »

I dont understand all the people telling the OP he is going too fast.
Is there anyone here who hasnt gone into a corner & almost got caught out? I certainly have specially when driving **** box of a car therefore any tips the OP can get are going to help.

If I ever feel like Ive almost been caught out (and its rare) its because I took the corner too fast. Enter the corner at the correct speed and camber or anything else doesnt come into it. Its rare (if at all) that I ever get understeer in my Integra, and I would imagine I would want to really throw it into a corner then hit the power fairly hard to notice any real understeer. Neither are sensible ways of driving tbf...

mickdw

djimi wrote: »

If I ever feel like Ive almost been caught out (and its rare) its because I took the corner too fast. Enter the corner at the correct speed and camber or anything else doesnt come into it. Its rare (if at all) that I ever get understeer in my Integra, and I would imagine I would want to really throw it into a corner then hit the power fairly hard to notice any real understeer. Neither are sensible ways of driving tbf...

Ok but the OP is driving a Polo & from experience a drop of rain can make things very interesting in one of those. More so after getting out of good car.

-Chris-

Get yourself a copy of Roadcraft OP, it'll tell you all you need to know about cornering safely on the road.

Anan1

mickdw wrote: »

I dont understand all the people telling the OP he is going too fast.
Is there anyone here who hasnt gone into a corner & almost got caught out?

Yes - when I was going too fast.

mickdw

Anan1 wrote: »

Yes - when I was going too fast.

Well that is my point - most of us have gone in too fast, at least know how to handle it best. Ok, I might not have stated original post that well

Cuddlesworth

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Don't mind the heel-toe/which side of the road stuff. Only applicable if you're on the track.

The best way to corner regardless of the car you're in is to visualise the point where the left hand side of the road and right hand side of the road meet in the corner. It's called the vanishing/limiting point. As you drive into a corner, the ideal scenario is to have this point moving away from you at a constant speed that your car is matching. If it's moving towards you, you're going too fast and you need to brake. If it's moving away, you need to accelerate.

Ideally you'll go into the corner matching the vanishing point, and after you've gone through the apex, the point should move away rapidly, allowing you to accelerate out of the corner.

With the added effect of increased visibility as you start looking past corners and not at the car in front.

woody33

I might add that I was driving these same roads in a friend's 300hp Subaru recently, he was telling me to take corners faster that the car could handle it, and I'm thinking there could be a cyclist around that left hander and a car coming the other way. In fact just a couple of days ago I came to a right hand curve and a bunch of cyclists popped into view. Fine, but there was a patrol car edging out to see if they could get past them. Well, I tucked pretty tight to the left I can tell you. Thanks for the ideas, I'll check them out, vanishing point was a thing I used to know but had forgotten. Drive safe, I was thinking of getting those Cooper Rain Experts, but that's for another thread.

Esel

RoverJames wrote: »

For road driving advanced driving folks reckon you should take corners closer to the white line than the verge.

More than a bit simplistic!

Keep to the left approaching a right-hand bend; the apex will be near the centre line.

Keep to the centre approaching a left-hand bend; the apex will be near the verge.

Still a bit simplistic, I admit - but way better than your advice.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Approach the corner on the opposite side, left for right and vise versa, remember your braking point.


Change gear before you're in the corner, heel and toe, i.e. blip throttle to get revs up with your heel while your toe is on the clutch so as to not loose speed when you switch down a gear as the engine will be at correct revs.
Make sure to kiss the apex of the corner, don't throttle up yet and after the car has straightened put the foot down.

Of course it might be different on the public road...

FYP. Wtf?

_______________________________________

PaintDoctor's advice on the vanishing point is on the ball.

As -Chris- said, get a copy of Roadcraft - and study it.

CiniO

woody33 wrote: »

I've been driving FWD for a long time and seem to get around corners fine, but I would like advice or a link about the best way to corner. I suppose brake, half throttle around and accelerate as you straighten up? Sometimes I find myself in a fast corner with bad camber and running a bit wide and a good understanding of the dynamics would be nice. Ta.

First of all your rule (brake, half throttle and full throtle at the end of the corner) not necceserily is right.

1. Brake - only if you are going too fast for the corner. If not, there's not a point to brake before a corner.

2. Half throttle - i wouldn't just say half. Perfect would be if you could give that much throttle, to make wheels nor accelerate, neither slow down. When no braking or accelerating forces work between tyre and surface, then tyre has the best grip on the sides, which is what you need on the corner.

3. Full throttle - that's pretty much fine.


If you are going a bit wide on a corner (I understand that car is going outside a corner) it means that you are going too fast for this corner.
Try cutting it (making angle of the corner bigger), but remember never to cut a corner outside your lane on normal public road. (that's pretty much dificult, because most Irish country roads have a lanes not more wider than a car, or sometimes even less narrow than them.

If it happens that you go too fast into the corner - two things can happen - the front of the car will skid or the back of the car will skid. In FWD it's most likely front wheels skid, unless you brake during the corner.

If it's back wheels skid, you just need to keep throttle at the same position as it was or even add a little bit, and contrturn the steering wheel the opposite direction. Then the car will start to come back to it's track, but even before it will, straighten the steering wheel, because otherwise you will make it skid the other way. It has to be done very fast - generally the faster you go the faster it has to be done.


If it's a front wheel skid (front wheels tempt to go outside the corner) you can help it in couple of ways.
The easiest is to slam on the brakes for a second or less. If the car doesn't have an ABS it will go straight (towards outside of the corner) but it will slow down, and when you release the brake, car should start turning into the corner. Make sure you don't hole brake pedal pressed for too long, because you will just crash toward outside of the bend.
The other way is to try to convert a front wheel skid into rear wheel skid. To do this add some more throttle, and press a brake pedal with your left foot. This should sharpen an angle of the bend, but it can also cause a rear wheel skid, so you have to be ready to control it.

But to be honest, all this might seem easy when reading, but to do this properly, you need tens or hundreds of hours of training.
After that time, you might be sure, that even if you go too fast into the bend, you will be able to control it.

Mr.David

CiniO wrote: »

Perfect would be if you could give that much throttle, to make wheels nor accelerate, neither slow down. When no braking or accelerating forces work between tyre and surface, then tyre has the best grip on the sides, which is what you need on the corner.
dy to control it.

I know what you mean, but I don't think I agree. I think you should brake slightly below the cornering speed limit and then throttle through the corner - so in effect the car is 'dragged' through the corner by the accelerating force and as such has less lateral force acting on it (so rolls less through the corner).

I was taught that if you find yourself half way through a corner and going too fast that you should slam on the brakes briefly. DO NOT feather the brakes or you will likely end up in the ditch. Its a result of weight transfer etc.

The stages I use (and was taught) are:

1. Evaluate - road condition, vanishing point, weather, oncoming traffic, mud/oil etc etc

2. Position - position yourself correctly (on your side of the road only obviously) relative to the direction of the bend.

3. Brake - in a straight line brake down to the required entry speed.

4. Gear down - after braking drop into the required gear (without cycling down) for example drop from 5th to 3rd.

5. Drive through - Not necessarily accelerating much through the corner but you do need to drive positively through the corner. There's nothing worse than being in the passenger seat with someone who just turns into a corner and all the force acting on the car is lateral - its very uncomfortable.