Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email Niamh on [email protected] for help. Thanks :)
New AMA with a US police officer (he's back!). You can ask your questions here

New DIT Campus - Grangegorman

«13456713

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,283 ✭✭✭ irishguy


    Is this still going ahead? Have they said how they are going to fund it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,298 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    irishguy wrote: »
    Is this still going ahead? Have they said how they are going to fund it?

    It was planned that a lot of the funding would come from the sale of the colleges campus' around the city but of course the original budget was based on property prices during the boom. These campus' are no longer and never again will be worth what they were valued at during the boom so its hard to see where they will get the money from now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭ nowecant


    Hi there


    The Irish Times reported as of April 30th was that this should still go ahead. There was an article about it in the Irish Times which anyone with a subscription can take a look at here (and possibly post the contents onto this page) http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/commercialproperty/2008/0430/1209420603609.html The DIT Student newsletters also suggest that its still going ahead and regularly give progress updates.

    I’m currently studying in DIT and was very surprised to learn that there are in fact 39 separate locations around the city housing DIT facilities. It appears that some of the much smaller locations like the ones near Bolton St but not in the main building are all counted as part of the larger campuses. I can only imagine that it must cost DIT a fortune to run all of these with porters, cleaning and the provision of even basic facilities.

    A single large campus would also benefit the students hugely in terms of facilities; currently I have to go to 3 separate libraries for some of my books. Access to lectures would also be immeasurably improved not to mention ease of timetabling.

    I’m very interested to see what others think of the style of architecture being proposed for the new campus? While it is not to my taste I can see that it probably in line with other modern campuses around the world.

    I suppose my biggest problem is that they appear to be using all of the available space, while I understand it is much more costly to build upwards and is harder to get planning permission leaving some additional space would make it easier to expand in future.

    The new campus I presume would also have a major impact on the University Rankings http://www.topuniversities.com/university/165/dublin-institute-of-technology DIT has made good progress on this particular website (I know there are other ranking systems) though it did slow between 2008 - 2009)

    2006 = 370
    2007 = 351
    2008 = 328
    2009 = 326

    I also understand that there are plans for Broadstone Bus Garage to be a kind of Phase 2 of the development. This seems to be hinted at in some of the plans on the GDA (Grangegorman Development Agency) Website where you can see the old train station seems to be integrated with the new campus. I also seem to remember something in the paper a while back (12 months or so) about the minister of transport rejecting CIE plans to reinstate this as a train station saying that the Luis would be using all available track facilities on the way out to Broombridge. Does anyone have any more info on this?


  • Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭ nowecant


    Also

    If they could source the funding not only would they get it built much cheaper and faster now but it would also provide thousands of jobs


  • Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭ nowecant


    irishguy wrote: »
    Is this still going ahead? Have they said how they are going to fund it?

    I would suggest borrowing, I heard figures of about 1 - 1.5 Billion to complete the work though Im not certain about this. While this is a lot of money I still believe it is worth it. DIT is currently the countries biggest educational institution with circa 23,500 students, the majority working in vastly substandard conditions compared to other colleges.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 454 ✭✭ irishdub14


    nowecant wrote: »
    I would suggest borrowing, I heard figures of about 1 - 1.5 Billion to complete the work though Im not certain about this. While this is a lot of money I still believe it is worth it. DIT is currently the countries biggest educational institution with circa 23,500 students, the majority working in vastly substandard conditions compared to other colleges.

    +1

    Very true, plus it would be great having another ultra modern purpose built campus like DCU but better! The plans look great!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭✭✭ Arbutus


    The Grangegorman project is still on course to go ahead, in fact it is hoped that a Government decision will be made over the next two weeks to allow the Grangegorman Development Agency to proceed with Consultation on their draft strategic plan. The project also includes a health element. The current psychiatric hospital must be vacated before work starts on the new DIT facilities. Enabling works for a new 66 bed state of the art facility will begin in August.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,834 ✭✭✭ markpb


    The Board Snip nua report recommended cancelling this project:
    Given the current uncertainty in relation to this project, the Group proposes to discontinue all current funding (€1.5m) for the agency. This measure could also avoid further capital expenditure on the planned €1.5bn capital development Programme associated with Grangegorman. The Group further recommends that the State dispose of land associated with this project to generate revenue for the Exchequer and that the option be explored of consolidating DIT on alternative lands, e.g. at Tallaght Institute of Technology as suggested at D.2.3 above.

    Of course it's still up to the government to decide what to do. I can't see it happening in the short term. Selling vast quantities of the city centre in a slow market won't raise the money they expected, probably won't cover the costs of constructing the new campus and would further depress the market (which I can't imagine they're keen to do).

    If they can't cover the costs from sales, they'll have to borrow the money on the market and since Moody downgraded us this morning, it will cost even more than before.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,283 ✭✭✭ irishguy


    It would be good for it to go ahead, but the government cant afford to borrow 1.5Billion so I cant see this going ahead for another 10 years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭ nowecant


    I really don’t like the idea of consolidating the campuses of DIT, IT Tallaght and Blanchardstown IT on the 15 Acre site out in Tallaght as I believe was also suggested in the report. I just think that would be a huge step back for DIT, which has made massive gains in recent years. There might however be some merit to making ITT and ITB part of the DIT college in order to streamline programs etc... and to lesson overhead running costs. Ill also admit as a Student of DIT that I would have been less likely to choose the college if it was out in Tallaght and I would suggest many more would be the same. For students living outside the city center most travel links are towards the city center and would mean that a huge amount would have to take 2 or more modes of transport to get to college.

    I am also wondering about the price tag of 1.5 Billion. While I have no idea what a college campus like this should cost it just seams very cheap considering what the plans entail. Is there anyone here who would have a better idea about this?

    If it was 1.5 Billion isn’t that less than what we are borrowing every two weeks at the moment? And if so i would consider it a good investment considering the jobs created and the possibilities of big savings in the running of the college.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭ nowecant


    Arbutus wrote: »
    The Grangegorman project is still on course to go ahead, in fact it is hoped that a Government decision will be made over the next two weeks to allow the Grangegorman Development Agency to proceed with Consultation on their draft strategic plan. The project also includes a health element. The current psychiatric hospital must be vacated before work starts on the new DIT facilities. Enabling works for a new 66 bed state of the art facility will begin in August.

    That is good news, ill try and keep an eye out for the decision. From my reading in the press including the DIT Student news and a conversation I had a while back with one of the members of a community project in Stonybatter it seams like most local people are pro the development. 23 thousand students and staff will all have to eat and sleep somewhere so it could be the big injection the north inner city needs to reinvent itself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭✭✭ Arbutus


    The price tag on the Grangegorman project is not €1.5 billion. Current estimates have set out that in order to replace DIT's core facilities in Grangegorman the overall cost will be in the region of €496 million. Of this it is expected that around two thirds will come from a variety of DIT sources including but not exclusively the sale of property. The rest will come from Government grants ranging over 7-8 years.
    As well as a major drop in property prices there has also been a major drop in the cost of construction generally. This must be factored into the cost projections for Grangegorman. Also within the cost plans the possibility of property markets not recovering very quickly has been considerd and the different packages and phases can be planned accordingly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 534 PaulieBoy


    Fingers crossed that the whole stupid plan is dropped !
    I spent four years in Bolton St, three thus far in Kevin St, think it's great that you can go to college in the city center and not some huge soulless dump in some outer part of Dublin.
    Invest the money in upgrading what is already there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,511 ✭✭✭✭ FreudianSlippers


    PaulieBoy wrote: »
    Fingers crossed that the whole stupid plan is dropped !
    I spent four years in Bolton St, three thus far in Kevin St, think it's great that you can go to college in the city center and not some huge soulless dump in some outer part of Dublin.
    Invest the money in upgrading what is already there.
    Grangegorman isn't exactly in "some outer part of Dublin" - it's like a 5 minute walk from Bolton St.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,298 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    PaulieBoy wrote: »
    Fingers crossed that the whole stupid plan is dropped !
    I spent four years in Bolton St, three thus far in Kevin St, think it's great that you can go to college in the city center and not some huge soulless dump in some outer part of Dublin.
    Invest the money in upgrading what is already there.

    Invest money in upgrading what is already there and pump vast sums of money into facilities that are not now and will never be fit for the purpose intended at the expense of other important resources which are vital to the success of the college. I just finished in Bolton Street and the place is a dump, regardless of how much soul you think it has. If you showed someone from a top university in another country around the building they would laugh when you told them this is supposed to be this country's centre of excellence in terms of engineering/architecture/construction related degrees. The place is a kip and being beside Cineworld doesnt make up for that. With the new Luas line Grangegorman will be within 10 minutes of the city centre so its not exactly "some outer part of Dublin". And a single modern campus for all DIT students with proper facilities for clubs, societies sports clubs and various other interest groups would have a lot more soul then a serious of run down campus' scattered across the city.


  • Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭ cormy


    PaulieBoy wrote: »
    Fingers crossed that the whole stupid plan is dropped !
    I spent four years in Bolton St, three thus far in Kevin St, think it's great that you can go to college in the city center and not some huge soulless dump in some outer part of Dublin.
    Invest the money in upgrading what is already there.

    Don't you mean: "I think it's great I can go to college for 7 years ... 'so far' "

    Pete_Cavan is completely correct. Some of the facilities I've seen in Kevin St. are really very poor indeed. Lecture theatre equipment and furniture (i.e. 'sliding' whiteboards; OHPs; lighting; seating), that is falling apart; floor and wall tiles missing/paint peeling; pretty grim toilet facilities. These are the basics that should be gotten right, never mind the fact of the lack of modern AV equipment in classrooms/lecture halls. The city centre campus locations of DIT do *not* an Institute of Higher Education make, I'm afraid. The right facilities are the foundations (literally in the case of Grangegorman), upon which the plans for the development of DIT rest.

    .... plus Grangegorman is not in the middle of nowhere or 'some outer part of Dublin' as you assert.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭ dynamick


    The McCarthy report said this:
    D. 9 Discontinue funding for Grangegorman Development Agency
    The Grangegorman Development Agency is a statutory agency established in 2006 by the Government to redevelop the former St. Brendan's Hospital grounds in Dublin city centre as a new campus for the Dublin Institute of Technology (DIT) and to provide community health facilities on behalf of the Health Services Executive. Given the current uncertainty in relation to this project, the Group proposes to discontinue all current funding (€1.5m) for the agency. This measure could also avoid further capital expenditure on the planned €1.5bn capital development Programme associated with Grangegorman. The Group further recommends that the State dispose of land associated with this project to generate revenue for the Exchequer and that the option be explored of consolidating DIT on alternative lands, e.g. at Tallaght Institute of Technology as suggested at D.2.3 above.

    The most recent question in the Dáil was in May when Seán Haughey said that the Grangegorman project was being assessed by the government and that the results of that assessment were not yet known.
    http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20100506.xml&Ex=All&Node=H14-4

    I think the previous complaints about moving DIT out of the city centre referred to McCarthy's proposal to move DIT to Tallaght rather than Grangegorman.

    3rd level colleges have to compete for students and placing themselves in Tallaght would lead to very low demand for places. Who would want to spend the best years of youth in U of Tallafornia? Grangegorman is a cool location, a proper city campus close to Smithfield.

    This is the kind of project best handled by a PPP where one company would both build the new college and sell the old buildings for a fixed fee, otherwise the costs would run riot. DIT has grown to a pretty high standard, whereas BIT and TIT are local technical colleges, fit for purpose but not in the same league. (no offence meant to students of those colleges).

    This project is probably feasible if combined with a rationalisation of the DIT colleges where duplicate administrators and underemployed lecturers were taken out quietly and shot in the back of the head.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,834 ✭✭✭ markpb


    dynamick wrote: »
    Grangegorman is a cool location, a proper city campus close to Smithfield.

    What on earth has Smithfield got that helps with it's coolness!?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,298 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    markpb wrote: »
    What on earth has Smithfield got that helps with it's coolness!?

    The Cobblestone! Coolest pub in Dublin.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭✭✭ Arbutus


    It will cost significantly less to develop a new campus in Grangegorman than it would to keep the current 39 sites and upgrade them to a sustainable standard. Looking at it as a purely financial aspect the move to Grangegorman is the only one which makes sense.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 534 PaulieBoy


    dynamick wrote: »

    Grangegorman is a cool location, a proper city campus close to Smithfield.
    Grangegorman is a kip in a ****ty part of the city, close to Smithfield another kip in a ****ty part of the city. But hey, that's just an opinion :-)

    It's never gonna happen so don't get too excited!


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,588 ✭✭✭ Bluetonic


    PaulieBoy wrote: »
    Grangegorman is a kip in a ****ty part of the city, close to Smithfield another kip in a ****ty part of the city. But hey, that's just an opinion :-)
    Yes because Bolton St is utopia.

    It's good to see that attending third level has really increased your vocabulary and helped you really get across your points! It's also clear to see that your letting sentiment get in the way of all logic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭ dynamick


    NCAD is in a similar location at the edge of the city core area and does very well there. Lower commercial rents mean you get more arty/underground activity. This happens at the edge of all urban cores. Look at hoxton and Old street.
    Smithfield has voodoo lounge and dice bar, glimmerman, lighthouse art cinema, legal quarter, luas, knacker fair, fascist gas lamps, edgy social mix, ice rink in winter and flower markets.


  • Registered Users Posts: 534 PaulieBoy


    Bluetonic wrote: »
    Yes because Bolton St is utopia.

    It's good to see that attending third level has really increased your vocabulary and helped you really get across your points! It's also clear to see that your letting sentiment get in the way of all logic.
    And making personal insults is in no way helping what little argument you have.
    I'm out of here, it's clear debate is not something your used to and I refuse to be dragged into a verbal match over who posses the greatest vocabulary with children.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,588 ✭✭✭ Bluetonic


    PaulieBoy wrote: »
    And making personal insults is in no way helping what little argument you have.
    I'm out of here, it's clear debate is not something your used to and I refuse to be dragged into a verbal match over who posses the greatest vocabulary with children.
    It wasn't a personal insult I was merely point out that your reasons for not wanting to move are unfounded and the way you are portraying them aren't doing yourself or your points any justice. Why the needed to curse? No need in my opinion.

    If you have strong points to make on the matter then make them, but merely saying they shouldn't move due to the two reasons you've outlined already is pathetic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,511 ✭✭✭✭ FreudianSlippers


    PaulieBoy wrote: »
    Grangegorman is a kip in a ****ty part of the city, close to Smithfield another kip in a ****ty part of the city. But hey, that's just an opinion :-)

    It's never gonna happen so don't get too excited!
    Which is a good reason not to revitalise and renew these areas how?


  • Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭ nowecant


    PaulieBoy wrote: »
    Fingers crossed that the whole stupid plan is dropped !
    I spent four years in Bolton St, three thus far in Kevin St, think it's great that you can go to college in the city center and not some huge soulless dump in some outer part of Dublin.
    Invest the money in upgrading what is already there.

    The development of a 21st centaury integrated campus for Irelands largest student population a 10 minute walk from O'Connell St could hardly be called stupid. If you were to argue it was an unnecessary expense that might be one thing, mistimed would be another argument... but stupid?

    Also while I’m not an expert in Boards or any other forum I believe that essentially what you are doing is Trolling. This is a discussion about the proposed development, whether it will go ahead, the possible benefits or problems that might arise.

    I did find your comments interesting that Bolton St and Kevin St, both of which I have attended interesting. Due to the amount of space they have even a massive investment could not make either campus into a top standard college campus. Angier St might have some hope but that’s only for the lucky few students that attend there. How about the poor buggers off out in Portland row at the 5 Lamps? Or many of the other tiny distributed sites around the city?


  • Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭ nowecant


    An Interesting point raised will be the Student Facilities.

    From my experiences in DIT so far these are one of the biggest failings of the college. This is not the fault of the Student Union or the volunteers etc but a simple lack of facilities. There is no obvious place for students to gather especially at night. Like it or not a large part of a students life revolves around nightlife and the bar etc While the plan shows that there will be a definite student area i am not sure if this will include a bar?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,298 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    PaulieBoy wrote: »
    Grangegorman is a kip in a ****ty part of the city, close to Smithfield another kip in a ****ty part of the city. But hey, that's just an opinion :-)

    It's never gonna happen so don't get too excited!

    DCU was built beside Ballymun, one of the poorest areas in the city at the time but is now undergoing to massive redevelopment. I dont think the towers effected DCU in any way but Im sure the redevelopment will benefit them, attracting more studentsand better staff. Similarly I cant see the fact that Grangegorman is not the nicest area of the city having any negative effects on DIT but the presents of the college will benefit the area and the city as a whole.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 534 PaulieBoy


    Bluetonic wrote: »
    It wasn't a personal insult I was merely point out that your reasons for not wanting to move are unfounded and the way you are portraying them aren't doing yourself or your points any justice. Why the needed to curse? No need in my opinion.

    If you have strong points to make on the matter then make them, but merely saying they shouldn't move due to the two reasons you've outlined already is pathetic.
    Dude, why the personal attacks and all the aggression ????

    As to the other posts , I concede some very valid points made.
    I'm still of the opinion that the present structure is one that should be maintained, but I do see how the financial one to move makes sense.
    Didn't think I would get attacked for such an opinion but there ya go!
    Well done to the other posters with some very good posts.


Advertisement