RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

Rick_

What about having a spot beam for Ireland on one of the upcoming Astra 1x birds? Surely that's all that's required and the rights holders can't complain of overspill. If it's OK for the main UK broadcasters to broadcast FTA on spot beams for the UK, then why can't RTÉ broadcast on one for Ireland. That way RTÉ can be FTA to all and can also be received on Sky for those that choose to have it and also on any receiver for those that don't.

Should RTÉ not be pushing for this from Astra for the future? It would make much more sense than having it on a different satellite requiring different equipment.

zg3409

A 20Ghz spot beam from 28.2 would require a LNB that can receive both KA and KU. No such one exists (not that it is not possible)

It is possible, right now, for Sky to add the settings needed to receive Saorsat on a Sky HD box, but they have chosen not to do that. It would require new dishes and a dual feed arrangement, but why would they. Even if RTE was free to air from 28.2 there is a good chance Sky would want extra just to appear on their EPG. Sky are in the business of making a profit. Actually providing anything of use is secondary to making profit.

Any spot beam, even a small one, on current KU would still be too wide for RTE.

watty

A combo Ku / Ka LNB is very poor performance. Eutelsat instead demonstrated a special reflector* which passes one band and reflects the other. Thus to have Ka & Ku at same location one LNBF uses the secondary reflector principle and is near the bottom of dish pointed at the small reflector and the other LNBF is at the normal position at the end of the arm.

So it's unlikely a true integrated single LNBF for Ka/Ku will ever exist. The reflector with separate Ka and Ku LNBFs uses existing high performance cheap LNBFs. The Ka guide would severely degrade Ku in a combo and the Fresnel horn will only work for one band. Ka would have to use a plastic lens spike in the middle, degrading Ku even more.
RTE on Ku band isn't possible without encryption and unlike Netherlands or France we can't afford that. The Ka band carriage is cheaper anyway because the one satellite can have 82+ spots by reusing each band and polarisation at the same time from same satellite about 20 times.

Sky won't even add "other channel" settings for European mainland SD transmission, Diseq or some UK FTA HD. (The HW can do all types Diseqc).

Also the Astra Ka band satellites are not the "reuse" kind as Ka-Sat is, they are too big, look at Hylas1 @33W Ka band spots over British Isles, they can be received in Mayo/Galway/Kerry and Netherlands up to Southern Sweden!. Even the "native" Ka-Sat spot is about x4 too big. It's artificially reduced by the "frequency/Polarisation reuse" scheme.

Without Ka-Sat and it's insane 20x reuse to give 82+ spots there would be no Saorsat. Hylas1, Astra etc would all need at minimum a FTV card scheme. Also FTV card schemes are a scam by the card operator! A card only makes sense for Pay TV. Because people can easily put a card in the post and use it ANYWHERE the signal can be received.




(* I was shown this as the terminals for HB6 I think uses it for combined Ka Internet and Ku TV in German 13E market)

Elmo

What are the EPG numbers on Soarsat?

zg3409

Elmo wrote: »

What are the EPG numbers on Soarsat?

I am not sure what your question is. Saorsat is not available via a Sky box. You need a non Sky box. Ideally a Saorview approved combo box. Then you can set the Irish Saorsat channels to any numbers you like. I have not used an approved box. They may order them the exact same as Saorview.

Read the last 20/30 pages to see what it is all about.

Elmo

zg3409 wrote: »

I am not sure what your question is. Saorsat is not available via a Sky box. You need a non Sky box. Ideally a Saorview approved combo box. Then you can set the Irish Saorsat channels to any numbers you like. I have not used an approved box. They may order them the exact same as Saorview.

I am just looking at the numbers they come in on automatically on a Saorsat box. e.g. RTÉ One on channel 1 or 101 or 200 or 234? on a SaorSat box.

I never said anything about a Sky Box.

watty

There are no Saorsat boxes. A combo genuine Saorview box that has Satellite isn't a Saorview box as someone needing Saorsat has no need for Saorview at all.

A Combo box is really stupid for Saorsat.

MarkK

Elmo wrote: »

I am just looking at the numbers they come in on automatically on a Saorsat box. e.g. RTÉ One on channel 1 or 101 or 200 or 234? on a SaorSat box.

There is no specific Saorsat box.

Saorsat does not have channel numbers, you order the channels how you want, like on an analogue tv.

zg3409

MarkK wrote: »

There is no specific Saorsat box.

Well not quite true. In the RTENL SaorSat PDF it mentioned the Triax TSC114 as being Saorsat approved. It does not carry the logo, but RTENL say it is.

More details here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055968485&page=158

Triax say they will launch a Sat only box with a blue display which is yet to appear.

There is also a new Walker Combo for sale slightly cheaper box which may become approved:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056628216

In reality if you want a Saorsat/28.2 combined setup the cheapest solution is to get the Walker WP75SAT-HD or the WP95SAT-HD, but I would buy them quickly. They have 7 days TV guide on both 28.2 and 9 East. There is a suggestion they will stop supplying them for legal reasons. Very cheap and 7 day guide on 28.2, unlike the approved box.

Normally I would not suggest buying an unapproved box, but the approved ones cannot match the 28.2 side of things.

http://www.powercity.ie/?par=10-24-WP75HD&pages=1&prod=WP75HD&brands=WALKER&image=

http://www.powercity.ie/?par=10-24-WP95SAT&pages=1&prod=WP95SAT&brands=WALKER&image=


I would love to see a proper review of these, but I can't justify buying one.

MarkK wrote: »

Saorsat does not have channel numbers, you order the channels how you want, like on an analogue tv.

I am not sure how approved boxes handle channel numbers. I presume, as you say, you number them youself. They don't seem to auto re-tune (unlike Saorview approved boxes:correction=wrong) hence the requirement to re-scan when TG4 was added.

watty

Well not quite true. In the RTENL SaorSat PDF it mentioned the Triax TSC114 as being Saorsat approved. It does not carry the logo, but RTENL say it is.

1) RTE NL havn't published a spec?
2) Where is it officially listed as a Saorsat box outside of an RTENL PDF?
3) That's a Saorview box DTT that has a satellite tuner, so it would take deliberate stupidity to make it incompatible on Satellite
4) Even if it is Certified for Saorsat, it's a pointless box to buy for Saorsat. It's a combo.

Saorview boxes don't auto retune. You need to recan if a Multiplex is added and for 3 TX sites in October that change frequency.

If you want/have to have Saorsat you'd be mad to not get Freesat HD.

Saorsat = 3 real channels, one Pseudo news channel and one repeat channel
Freesat HD = Over 40 real channels excluding +1s and regional variations. Some real news channels

So a Freesat HD box that supports Diseqc and non-Freesat channels is thus the best solution if you can only get Saorsat and want UK TV, like if you watch Wales, IOM or N.I. Freeview (Freeview HD coming soon NI) a Freeview HD box that works on Saorview is more sense than a Saorview box.

Anyone would be mad to buy a Saorview Combo if they can't get Saorview and have to get Saorsat.

Only Sky & Freesat have "auto tuning", the Freeview, Saorview and Saorsat don't.

Mr. Rabbit

I think the Humax Freesat HD boxes are OK for Saorsat, aren't they ?

watty

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

I think the Humax Freesat HD boxes are OK for Saorsat, aren't they ?

Not out of the box. May only apply to HD PVR. You need to add 3rd party SW and there may still be some Freesat scheduling issue if you watching Saorsat when a Freesat program scheduled via EPG due to start. Read the appropriate forums.

There is no perfect solution.

zg3409

watty wrote: »

1) RTE NL havn't published a spec?

Correct

2) Where is it officially listed as a Saorsat box.

In RTENL's own Saorsat PDF

The first SAORSAT Approved Set-Top-Boxes is currently available for around €180. This, Triax TSC114 model, is a combination Set-Top-Box which is also SAORVIEW Approved. It can be used with SAORSAT, SAORVIEW and a combination of either SAORSAT or SAORVIEW with UK, or other, Free-To-Air satellite services.
Similar specification and more basic SAORSAT Approved Set-Top-Boxes are expected into the market in the near future.

http://www.rtenl.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/RTÉNL-SAORSAT-FAQs-Mar-2012-Rev-1.1.pdf

4) Even if it is Certified for Saorsat, it's a pointless box to buy for Saorsat. It's a combo.

That's what I said

Saorview boxes don't auto retune. You need to recan if a Multiplex is added and for 3 TX sites in October that change frequency.

I bow to your superior knowledge. I thought they did.

If you want/have to have Saorsat you'd be mad to not get Freesat HD.

The question I was attempting to answer was Saorsat channel numbers. The boxes from powercity I linked to have 7 days guide for both Saorsat and Freesat knockoff. Not bad for the money.

Elmo

Sorry just to make this totally clear in relation to Saorview. Approved IDTV/STBs will not auto-retune for new muxs coming online in the future if there are any?

Back to Saorsat. I thought that, while saorsat provided the Irish channels, it also provides other FTA services such as BBC, ITV etc. by default rather then in terms of marketing.

Any screen shots of a Saorsat STB screen output before the user has chosen channel positions? Are no automatic positions?

zg3409

Elmo wrote: »

Sorry just to make this totally clear in relation to Saorview. Approved IDTV/STBs will not auto-retune for new muxs coming online in the future if there are any?

No.

Back to Saorsat. I thought that, while saorsat provided the Irish channels, it also provides other FTA services such as BBC, ITV etc. by default rather then in terms of marketing.

From Saorsat 9 East there is only Irish Channels. to get BBC etc you need a second LNB for 28.2. BBC is not available on 9East. FTA from 28.2 and 9E are seperate. You can use the one box via a DiSEqC. A Saorsat box only means it will work OK on 9East. Saorsat only provides a guide for 9East.

Any screen shots of a Saorsat STB screen output before the user has chosen channel positions?

It is the same as any FTA box, except that it works 100% with 7 day guide on Saorsat.

Are no automatic positions?

No. I have not seen anyone test the only official box on Saorsat, but it's fairly safe to say it treats Saorsat signal the same as any free to air station. It just has the extra software to decode the 7 day guide and extra features.

It is not the same as a Freesat box. None of the channels are locked. You can move channels around.

You can use non approved boxes on Saorsat. They may or may not work with the 7 day guide and digital text etc. The signal is totally unencrypted and meets various international standards.

watty

No, no IDTV/STB certified do autotune. Some boxes/TV (nothing to do with Saorview) have an auto-rescan feature which should be turned off as it will pickup "junk" when weather is strange.

Same exactly applies with Freeview in UK.

Saorsat is from 9E on Ka-Sat using Ka-band LNBF. It's ONLY ever going to be at best a copy of Saorview. That was known from July 2010 when it was announced. At the minute it's a "cut down" copy as TV3/3e are tight fisted.

UK Free to Air is best received with a "Freesat HD" box. ALL UK satellite TV (and the Sky provided courtesy feed (at entirely Sky's cost) of Encrypted Irish channels solely for Irish Sky Subscribers) is all on Ku Band and from a different place in the Sky.

There is no more connection between Freesat and Saorsat as there is for 19E German TV. Less as a different kind of LNBF is needed.

To get Freesat and Saorsat you need either two dishes (or one larger dish with dual feeds) and either a Diseqc switch (two for a PVR) or a Multiswitch (can do several PVRs and expandable up to 1000 or 2000 receivers) to switch between 9E (Saorsat) and 28E (Freesat + some other FTA UK or Sky).

The Satellite receiver needs at least DVB-S2, DVB-S, MPEG4, MPEG2, MHEG5 and HD (All Freesat HD boxes have this) and ability to control Diseqc switches (Multiswitch pretends to be a Diseqc) and have non-Freesat channels. A Sky HD box won't work.

A multiswitch system can feed a Sky box (UK channels only) and Freesatboxes and PCs and generic boxes all at the same time for up to FOUR satellites.


This dish gets on the Left most LNBF 28.2 = All UK TV
on the next two LNBFs it gets Mostly German on 19.2E and various European, North Africa and Arab etc on 13E
The right most LNB is for 9E (though in the photo it's a Ku Band LNBF, not Ka for Saorsat)

This feeds a "multiswitch" so even a Sky box works (there are two Sky boxes) because if Diseqc commands are not sent the coax has 28.2E, all the UK channels.

As a minimum you need the larger dish, bar, two LNBFs and a Diseqc switch for UK + Saorsat. For a PVR you need TWO Diseqc switches (or a single multiswitch).

watty

Any FTA DVB-S2 HD box will do the Saorsat 7 day guide.
MHEG5 is needed for Interactive and any other later MHEG5 application. Freesat HD boxes and boxes with CI+ all have MHEG5. But not all Freessat HD boxes do MHEG5 for non-Freesat channels. Some don't have Diseqc. Some won't do 7 day guide, though they ought to.

If a Freesat Box does 7 day guide on some German stations on 19E it will on Saorsat too.

satwyn

zg3409 wrote: »

I am not sure what your question is. Saorsat is not available via a Sky box. You need a non Sky box. Ideally a Saorview approved combo box. Then you can set the Irish Saorsat channels to any numbers you like. I have not used an approved box. They may order them the exact same as Saorview.

Read the last 20/30 pages to see what it is all about.

anyone tried a sky hd box for the rte channels on 9e i would have thought it would work under other channels if fec sr could be set properly

zg3409

Symbol Rate SR cannot be set properly on a Sky box. I also has no DiSEqC which is necessary for switching from 28.2 to 9East, so no it is not possible

Digitaltv

satwyn wrote: »

anyone tried a sky hd box for the rte channels on 9e i would have thought it would work under other channels if fec sr could be set properly

rte on saorsat works on hd freest rx, with other channels.:)

detective

Can someone please tell me the best receiver for Saorsat and Freesat with HD, PVR & EPG (if possible).

Also is it best to have two separate dishes or a single dish with an offset?

zg3409

detective wrote: »

Also is it best to have two separate dishes or a single dish with an offset?

It depends. If you already have a dish up and are happy to put up another 80cm/1M solid dish then why take down a working dish. If you have no dish up already a 90cm dish with dual feed is a lot neater. One dish is cheaper than two dishes.

It is easier to align 2 seperate dishes, but not much harder if you have a signal meter.

I would say go for a single dish if your existing dish is a mesh type and get a rust resistant TD88 or similar.

Note SaorSAT is only for those who cannot get saorview, due to no TV3 nor 3E.

watty

Digitaltv wrote: »

rte on saorsat works on hd freest rx, with other channels.:)

Not on all "Freesat HD" boxes if you want UK TV too as some don't support Diseqc at all.

satwyn

the sky boxes used to have 2 sr 22000 27500 not sure about fec if it can be set manually or not no need for diseqc switches on 1 dish setup set on 9e just wondering if the sky hd receivers can actually lock onto the signal you also could use a simple ab switch if you're stuck

satwyn

satwyn wrote: »

the sky boxes used to have 2 sr 22000 27500 not sure about fec if it can be set manually or not no need for diseqc switches on 1 dish setup set on 9e just wondering if the sky hd receivers can actually lock onto the signal

No, for two reasons. Firstly you can't enter a 25000 SR into a HD box. It's still only 22000 or 27500. You can't even enter the 29500 SR used by most HD transponders on Astra 2A/2B.

Secondly, the HD box won't lock on to DVB-S2 transponders even if the SR does match. This was why Channel 4 HD wasn't able to be tuned via Other Channels until recently (when the transponder reverted to DVB-S).

watty

10 years ago the "out of sub" Sky box was a bargain, esp if you had a UK address. Now if you are not using it for Sky payTV it's a sad crippled thing compared to anything else.

Karsini is 100% correct.

Also "Other Channels" was never great and after some other upgrades a few years ago had a tendency to lose them all.

Finally who in Ireland is going to go to bother of a Satellite install and not get the UK Selection of FTA channels too?

The Cable, Deflector and MMDS industry created to get main UK channels before there was ever Sky, Virgin, UPC or "Multichannel".

Sponge Bob

watty wrote: »

10 years ago the "out of sub" Sky box was a bargain, esp if you had a UK address. Now if you are not using it for Sky payTV it's a sad crippled thing compared to anything else.

Karsini is 100% correct.

It is fine as an SD unit, it was always badly crippled as a HD 'freeview' or recording proposition ( you lose your recordings out of sub) but tolerable with the white card if you can get one.

KasparsS

Dont bother with saorsat to big fus for 2 stations.
To expensive to put 2 dishes up.
The areal for saorview will do the work ask any sat installer on adverts.ie they know what they talking about.
http://www.adverts.ie/for-sale/q_satellite+install/

zg3409

KasparsS wrote: »

big fus for 2 stations.

The stations on saorsat are:
Television Services:
RTÉ One RTÉ Two HD TG4 RTÉ News Now RTÉjr RTÉ One+1

RTÉjr & RTÉ One+1 share timeslots, jr during the day, + 1 evenings.

Digital Teletext: RTÉ Digital Aertel

Radio Services: RTÉ Radio 1 RTÉ Radio 1 Extra RTÉ 2FM RTÉ Lyric RTÉ RnaG RTÉ Pulse RTÉ 2XM RTÉ Choice RTÉ Gold RTÉ Chill / Junior.

The only missing stations at the moment are TV3 and 3E. It may be more stations in the future. If you can get Saorview then that is what is recommended.

KasparsS

zg3409 wrote: »

The stations on saorsat are:
Television Services:
RTÉ One RTÉ Two HD TG4 RTÉ News Now RTÉjr RTÉ One+1

RTÉjr & RTÉ One+1 share timeslots, jr during the day, + 1 evenings.

Digital Teletext: RTÉ Digital Aertel

Radio Services: RTÉ Radio 1 RTÉ Radio 1 Extra RTÉ 2FM RTÉ Lyric RTÉ RnaG RTÉ Pulse RTÉ 2XM RTÉ Choice RTÉ Gold RTÉ Chill / Junior.

The only missing stations at the moment are TV3 and 3E. It may be more stations in the future. If you can get Saorview then that is what is recommended.

People like tv3 and 3e so no point to bother unles you have 9e allready:pac: