RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

moro_original

Hi Watty,

Just wondering, and I understand we don't know yet, but would you think a 65 cm dish is sufficient. I would intend only using it for Ka-Sat (no offsets).

However, complicating matters I'd be putting it up on the outskirts of Belfast in Co. Down. :S

Thanks

watty

This is likely NOTHING LIKE the RTE Announcement to be made shortly!

Summary:

1. Saorsat is an infill and backup service (we knew that from RTE statement at the Committee hearing July 2010 I think)
2. It's on 9E Ka-Sat. (I said that on the day it was announced, based on my remembrance of meetings about Ka-Sat with the people people providing it for Internet. But only now RTE admit this is true!)
3. The service is going ahead (I never believed it would not, but that's "official")
4. RTENL and RTE are "happy" with Coverage (But we don't know what their goals are!), testing completed.
5. The Service might not be "live" when the "Announcement" is made. It may be live later, but will be live before ASO, 24th October 2012.
6. The Onwave LNBFs are the real thing (But they "jumped the gun" selling them already).
7. Everyone that sells Sat gear in Ireland ought to have the Ka-band LNBFs before the service is live.
8. There might be only 20,000 LNBFs (But there might be 25,000 households that can't get Saorview, but 10,000 to 15,000 of those might have Irish TV via Sky so won't bother)
9. The dish is 80cm for a single feed! (44cm is technically possible, it sort of makes sense what they are doing! The south east can likely offset LNB for 28E and point at 9E, larger dishes needed esp for Eurobird channels from 28E in North West and far South West. The Ka-Sat Irish Spot footprint better than Eurobird for Donegal.
10. It's likely at launch and maybe indefinitely no TV3 or 3E (As they are not going to pay even a small amount for maybe 1% to 2% more viewers when DTT has already added 3E and given them nearly 20% more than Analogue)
11. You need a DVB-S2 box with MHEG5 and HD. (A Freesat box with Diseqec and "other channels" will at least tune the stations. There is 3rd party SW for Humax to semi-integrate the channels into "freesat mode" and keep Diseqc active)
12. You need dual feed or two dishes to get Sky/Freesat and Saorsat. A Diseqc switch is only good for one tuner. For a PVR you need 2 x Diseqc switches or a Multiswitch. A multiswitch can do 8 x PVRs and even Sky boxes (but only for Sky, sub or not). Multiswitches can be extended to 1000 rooms and four satellites.
13. A good meter is needed for Alignment as setting up an 80cm dish Ka-Band is about as hard as perfectly aligning a 1.1m dish on Freesat (x4 harder than 65cm on Sky/Freesat!), but no Skew adjustment.

watty

moro_original wrote: »

Just wondering, and I understand we don't know yet, but would you think a 65 cm dish is sufficient. I would intend only using it for Ka-Sat (no offsets).

However, complicating matters I'd be putting it up on the outskirts of Belfast in Co. Down.

see point (9)

80cm is minimum for "Ireland". Belfast may need 90cm to 110cm. I don't know for sure. Maybe 80cm might work.

Remember effect of heavy overcast can be as much as a light drizzle. Heavy rain has a big impact.

Mike 1972

watty wrote: »

There might be only 20,000 LNBFs (But there might be 25,000 households that can't get Saorview, but 10,000 to 15,000 of those might have Irish TV via Sky so won't bother)

On the other hand......

Some Freesat users may opt for a dual Freesat/Saorview setup and not bother with Saorview even where Saorview is available ?

Or they might have no interest in Irish TV

Or they might have no interest in any TV

watty wrote: »

80cm is minimum for "Ireland". Belfast may need 90cm to 110cm. I don't know for sure. Maybe 80cm might work.

I can see a big political issue being made out of this.

watty

No, because crazily there will be RTE /TG4 funded transmitters IN N.I.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

No, because crazily there will be RTE /TG4 funded transmitters IN N.I.

RTÉ/UK Government funded transmitters, TG4's share of the costs will be paid by British Government.

watty

Saorsat pages updated
http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/
http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/saorsat-reception/

Apogee

Box:


Contents:


Specs:


The LNBFs have a different LO to the Hughes units (21.2GHz vs 18.75GHz).

So to scan into a receiver without changing LO settings and assuming a Universal LNBF:

21200MHz - 20185MHz = 1015MHz and 9750MHz + 1015MHz = 10765MHz.

The 80cm dish is also Inverto branded:


And not bad value for €30 at all:

watty

What diameter is the Horn? Will it sit closer to a common Ku horn than a pair of Ku LNBs?
(Looks similar diameter to the dielectric Alps Ku LNBs that are "pointy" rather than metal horn) In theory it can be about 30% less diameter than similar aperture Ku Horn.

Mike 1972

watty wrote: »

No, because crazily there will be RTE /TG4 funded transmitters IN N.I.

Yes but the proposed transmitters will not give complete coverage which was supposed to be the whole point of Saorsat in the first place ?

The Cush wrote: »

RTÉ/UK Government funded transmitters, TG4's share of the costs will be paid by British Government.

I wonder how long it will be before RTE start arguing that it should recieve a share of Northern Irish TV licence revenue :eek:

watty

We don't know when they say Ireland if they mean the Country or the Island.
We don't know what saorsat will be like in Ballycastle. On the first published "spots" the North East Scotland was different, now the same. I don't know exactly where the point of interference is reached. Absolute signal level isn't an Issue in Ballycastle, only relative level of Irish and NE Scotland spot.

Well, some people expect the Irish Gov to get all of it eventually, but let us keep that for Politics sites.

You could argue why are there ANY RTE /TG4 terrestrial transmitters in N.I. and not something for Carlingford?

excollier

And also, Apogee, what are the actual dish dimensions please? WxH.

darth_maul

Major trade supplier (the one based in Magherafelt) is now stocking these inverto, KA band LNB , don't like revealing trade prices but coming in cheaper than onwave.

excollier

And selling fast, too!

Apogee

Dish up:


Inverted spectrum:


On the basis of the above, 80cm seems to be plenty and more than likely 60cm will be sufficient, unless there is a futher drop in power or they fiddle with the FEC.

Both ports of the LNBF are independent outputs designed for connection to 2 tuners.


Switching from 13 Volts to 18 Volts changes the polarity:


22KHz tone makes no difference.

Without changing the LO on the receiver, TP scan parameters are 10765MHz, SR 25000, Vertical, FEC 1/2, DVB-S2 QPSK:

Apogee

watty wrote: »

What diameter is the Horn? Will it sit closer to a common Ku horn than a pair of Ku LNBs?

35mm approx. While the feedhorn diameter is a little smaller, the electronics housing might get in the way (60mm x 30mm x 115mm),

excollier wrote: »

And also, Apogee, what are the actual dish dimensions please? WxH.

80cm x 75cm rim to rim.

The Cush

darth_maul wrote: »

Major trade supplier (the one based in Magherafelt) is now stocking these inverto, KA band LNB , don't like revealing trade prices but coming in cheaper than onwave.

http://www.vanjak.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=33187 £19.59 according to the site. Is VAT and delivery extra?

Onwave price €35 (€25+VAT+courier delivery)

excollier

Yes, delivery + vat (20%) are extra.

Elmo

@The Cush

Isn't that the same price with currency exchange?

The Cush

Elmo wrote: »

@The Cush

Isn't that the same price with currency exchange?

VAT is 3% lower. Cost of delivery?

watty

Apogee wrote: »

On the basis of the above, 80cm seems to be plenty and more than likely 60cm will be sufficient, unless there is a futher drop in power or they fiddle with the FEC.

You KNOW how much margin you need for Rain?

That's a very very brave statement when RTE say 80cm is minimum, Ka-Band has HUGE increase in attenuation as water in air increases. It's very dry air right now.

Apogee

watty wrote: »

That's a very very brave statement when RTE say 80cm is minimum, Ka-Band has HUGE increase in attenuation as water in air increases. It's very dry air right now.

It's raining here.

watty

But we don't know how heavy, from what altitude or how widespread to SSE of you. Nor do we know where you are on the Footprint.

I'd originally estimated 44cm was Ok, which is technically possible. But when RTE claim you need 80cm for a single feed it's a bit unreasonable, especially when there is no official service to claim "65cm will do". I know you are expert, but RTE/RTENL have to be the ones setting the standards.

Apogee

To be honest, based on the reliability of information that previously came from RTE/NL, I'd sooner trust my own eyes & reports from other users on here.

watty

Almost all reports here are anecdotal, and many from people that are only hobbyists. RTENL have a contract with Eutelsat and real Communications Engineers.

Where do you draw the line? Will we ignore Saorview Certification?


That is a spectrum. It's only a partial story about signal quality. (Moving marker just to side of peak and then calculating simple analogue SNR in dB would be a start. The peak level on screen on it's own is no use)

What BER have you?
What is the recommended BER limit?

How do you know what carrier Power they are going to run in 2013?

Admit that 65cm is purely a guess. We can only go on what RTE or RTENL or Saorview publish. They have not published yet, but HAVE verbally confirmed that 80cm is minimum recommended for single feed.

I'll of course be delighted if they when they publish in print revert back to the claim of 65cm. There must be some good reason why they said 65cm before and now say 80cm.

tomslick

Just taped my new Ka lnb to the side of the Ku lnb. Drove my motor to 13east and picked up RTE on 9east at 50%ish. Picture is perfect. Great stuff, every house should have one.

Not very technical but its abit too cold to be worrying about BER, SNR and dB.

moro_original

tomslick,

Just wondering what type and size of dish you are using?

Apogee

watty wrote: »

Admit that 65cm is purely a guess. We can only go on what RTE or RTENL or Saorview publish. They have not published yet, but HAVE verbally confirmed that 80cm is minimum recommended for single feed.

I'll rely on what I see in front of me rather than hearsay.

tomslick

moro_original wrote: »

tomslick,

Just wondering what type and size of dish you are using?

It is a Triax 110 dish. The Ku LNB is an inverto ultra single. When the Ka was in prime position signal was up in the 90%

moro_original

Apogee,

Out of curiosity, where abouts are you (what County even)? Would give me a clue regards my situation here in Northern Westeros.

(Thanks tom!)

watty

Signal is irrelevant!
Only quality (BER) counts. or at least Signal vs the background level not on the carrier.

Apogee

moro_original wrote: »

Apogee,

Out of curiosity, where abouts are you (what County even)? Would give me a clue regards my situation here in Northern Westeros.

(Thanks tom!)

Check your inbox.

NewHillel

Apogee wrote: »

I'll rely on what I see in front of me rather than hearsay.

What you see is irrelevant.
Spectrum Analysing is futile.
Loquitos has spoken.
You shall be assimilated.

The Cush

http://www.satellitetv.ie/shop/index.php?controller=product&path=27&product_id=352 are now selling the Ka LNBs for €49.

The following is from the site (emphasis is mine)

Ka Band Twin LNB

This Twin Ka LNB is ideal for the reception of Saorsat on 9east, because its a Twin LNB you can run 2 satellite receivers from one dish and now receive RTE and TG4 all over Ireland and most of the UK.

Available over most of the UK? How accurate is that statement?

channnels

Some speculation follows. Maybe RTE have reduced the power of the Saorsat transmission for one or any number of the following reasons:

1: Saorsat power had to be reduced to cut down the leakage of highly valuable RTE material to Britain. Otherwise the all-powerful rights holders would ritually disembowel Conor Hayes and that, well that would be terrible.

2: Saorsat power is to be reduced because RTE is bust. They can't afford the cost of a higher power transmission so have cut a "St Vincent de Paul deal" with Eutelsat. Saorsat will be radiated on increasingly reduced power until RTE NL determine how big a dish people will tolerate. Expect an influx of 1.8m Channel Masters at your local Peats.

3: Demand for Ka-band LNBs has been worryingly strong in mainland Europe. Two Ka LNBs are rumoured to be sold to a couple of German Radio Hams. Watty and Saorview:Brian from RTE NL have been despatched to an unnamed village in the Rhine-Westphalia province to track them down and liquidate them in an effort to send a message to enthusiasts to back off attempting to pick up Irish TV abroad.

4: RTE NL have noticed that there is a worrying trend of insubordination by the enthusiast community and therefore have launched an attack - get Watty to enforce obedience by dismissing all Saorsat reception reports unless fully certified by Marconi himself. Since Marconi has been dead since 1937 it is regretted that no reception reports can be entertained.

Finally I can announce that I have a contact in RTE NL who tells me they are pleased to announce the Saorsat logo. It will consist of a satellite dish modelled on the Jodrell Bank earth station with a friendly white coloured elephant called Des Mac who will be Tommy and PJ's new friend in the upcoming TV ads for the service.

Apogee

The Cush wrote: »

Available over most of the UK? How accurate is that statement?

Given that TG4 isn't being broadcasted currently, not especially accurate.

Finne1993

channnels wrote: »

Some speculation follows. Maybe RTE have reduced the power of the Saorsat transmission for one or any number of the following reasons:

1: Saorsat power had to be reduced to cut down the leakage of highly valuable RTE material to Britain. Otherwise the all-powerful rights holders would ritually disembowel Conor Hayes and that, well that would be terrible.

2: Saorsat power is to be reduced because RTE is bust. They can't afford the cost of a higher power transmission so have cut a "St Vincent de Paul deal" with Eutelsat. Saorsat will be radiated on increasingly reduced power until RTE NL determine how big a dish people will tolerate. Expect an influx of 1.8m Channel Masters at your local Peats.

3: Demand for Ka-band LNBs has been worryingly strong in mainland Europe. Two Ka LNBs are rumoured to be sold to a couple of German Radio Hams. Watty and Saorview:Brian from RTE NL have been despatched to an unnamed village in the Rhine-Westphalia province to track them down and liquidate them in an effort to send a message to enthusiasts to back off attempting to pick up Irish TV abroad.

4: RTE NL have noticed that there is a worrying trend of insubordination by the enthusiast community and therefore have launched an attack - get Watty to enforce obedience by dismissing all Saorsat reception reports unless fully certified by Marconi himself. Since Marconi has been dead since 1937 it is regretted that no reception reports can be entertained.

Finally I can announce that I have a contact in RTE NL who tells me they are pleased to announce the Saorsat logo. It will consist of a satellite dish modelled on the Jodrell Bank earth station with a friendly white coloured elephant called Des Mac who will be Tommy and PJ's new friend in the upcoming TV ads for the service.

Hilarious!!! :D:D:D

Finne1993

The Cush wrote: »

http://www.vanjak.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=33187 £19.59 according to the site. Is VAT and delivery extra?

Onwave price €35 (€25+VAT+courier delivery)

Vanjak price including VAT and delivery to southern Ireland is £35.50stg. shipping is £12 of that, maybe delivery is cheaper to the north and obviously if you were buying other equipment along with the LNB the shipping cost for it would be minimalised but so far Onwave are the cheapest for the one off sale.

No doubt all the major players here, TVTrade.ie, Satellite.ie etc will have them in stock within the next week or two and then we'll be able to have a proper price comparison.

watty

There are too many narky smart alecks. I'm not trying to mess anyone's fun or stop anyone anywhere watching RTE.

I only want that people get more educated, and don't buy the wrong stuff. Apogee's claims are not backed up by anything EXPLICIT he posted. We don't know the scaling of the spectrogram (10dB, 6dB, 2dB or Linear) or what equipment it represents.

The absolute level is MEANINGLESS. It always has been and always will be on an LNB unless it's a very long cable run, faulty or feeding a splitter.

The Signal to (noise + Interference) Ratio is what counts (On digital systems BER isn't a true measure of digital SNR but similar).

spectrum_noise.jpg
Green bar is important part
Below Red line is mix of local thermal noise, Cosmic noise and Electronics noise.
Purple line is roughly level of interference. Only BER really tells you the effect of Interference and noise.

On the supplied photo we can roughly see the Analogue levels only. The "marker" on the Saorsat peak is 62.9dBuV. We have no idea how "good" that is without comparing with totally clear sky and worst rain attenuation the link designed for. We can roughly see the analogue SNR and S(N+I)R. We should have been told the dBuV at levels of red and purple lines by the marker moved to those two points. Impossible to estimate from screen shot.

Any Ka signal report needs

1. Dish model and size,
2. test equipment used (a domestic sat box isn't test gear)
3. www.met.ie Rain radar snap (available on their site, but may not be up to date)
4. Several readings over several hours
5. Time of day
6. rough location of reception
7. Type of LNBF or LNB and feed
8. Amount of any offset from Arm.

adaptive_fail.jpg
Screen capture needed from www.met.ie to show extent and density of rain

Apogee is pretty expert. He should know better than to put up that screen shot and assert "65cm" is fine. Perhaps if he explains the logic with worked figures?

RTE really did say my 44cm was wrong and 65cm was the size. They recently after Cairan99/Onwave posts confirmed that 80cm is size for a single feed. Not Dual feed.

Yes, we have not yet got the "official announcement". But at this stage anyone claiming 65cm is fine needs

• proper worked figures and test gear
• know exactly what carrier power will be used
• know exactly what FEC will be used
• Actual contours for spot over Ireland

To back up the claim.

I'm a qualified communications engineer and at this stage I'd not make any claim on dish size based on any observation I make or Apogee makes unless it's got a lot more information. If RTE /RTENL wanted this to be a mass market product I still think a 44cm dish is technically possible. Obviously they really only want those that can't get Saorview to install. Though no-one is going to care what a few hobbyists and PVR owners do.

moro_original

Hi Watty,

Thanks for that very comprehensive post. I think it is probably fair to say that Onwave are making the recommendation of an 80cm dish with input from RTENL.

As much as I'd prefer a 65cm dish, I think given my north eastern location I should probably play it safe and get the 80cm one. 65cm dish is about 66% the area of 80cm dish, and seeing as I am fringe reception anyway...

Are we waiting with bated breath on a statement this week, do we think?

watty

Or Triax 90cm or 110cm if you want dual feed in Donegal.

Apogee

watty wrote: »

On the supplied photo we can roughly see the Analogue levels only. The "marker" on the Saorsat peak is 62.9dBuV. We have no idea how "good" that is without comparing with totally clear sky and worst rain attenuation the link designed for. We can roughly see the analogue SNR and S(N+I)R. We should have been told the dBuV at levels of red and purple lines by the marker moved to those two points. Impossible to estimate from screen shot.

Had you bothered to read the entire post properly, you could have easily calculated the SNR for yourself.

watty wrote: »

Apogee is pretty expert. He should know better than to put up that screen shot and assert "65cm" is fine. Perhaps if he explains the logic with worked figures?

I have never claimed to be expert. But then, I don't feel to the need to continually remind people that I'm a "qualified communications engineer" either.

watty wrote: »

I'm a qualified communications engineer and at this stage I'd not make any claim on dish size based on any observation I make or Apogee makes unless it's got a lot more information.

The difference being that while several posters on here have been making hands-on observations since the start of the tests, including in the pissing rain, you'd sooner dimiss them and rely on what your friend down the pub told you.

watty

The difference being that while several posters on here have been making hands-on observations since the start of the tests, including in the pissing rain, you'd sooner dimiss them and rely on what your friend down the pub told you.

That's almost libel. It's certainly completely speculative.
I don't even go to the pub. It was Ciaran99 that claimed to be told about it down at the Pub.

I haven't published results of any of my tests as I think the information is worthless. All the publish observations are worthless without knowing what the final live service power & FEC is and if the nearest French and Scottish spots are running with carrier on same or overlapping carrier frequency and what symbol rate and power they are.

I actually fabricated a horn for the Hylas LNB/ODU. After thinking about it for a while I decided it was all a waste of time to publish anything before RTE confirms what is being received is the real service with final parameters. Also it's likely there will be a 2nd carrier for the 2nd Mux. That will slightly change the quality of the signal. Also I can feed the LNBs to a real Lab bench calibrated HP spectrum analyser to compare levels, not the basic portable ones that installers use. It actually works to 18GHz directly and 47GHz with an external mixer. I have used it on X band and Ku band directly using a Waveguide to Coax transition.

Subsequent mux if they ever happen are unlikely to be on Saorsat as they would likely be pay TV.

This is the first time such a satellite has been deployed with TV (The USA multispot Wildblue KA Band has no TV) and the first time such frequency and polarisation reuse from the same orbital position has been deployed within Europe. Also the first Ka-Band TV in Europe. As a result all the reception reports at this stage are fairly meaningless for the the final service over the next year as Ka-Sat gets "populated".

We don't have signal strength contours nor the signal level change designed for between worst conditions where operation is still expected and the truly clear sky. All we have are Internet connection service areas. It's very likely that for a "reasonable" size dish and maximum carrier that the spots might be x4 to x6 the area shown if there were only four spots rather than 82 spots re-using the two sub-bands and two polarities.

Had you bothered to read the entire post properly, you could have easily calculated the SNR for yourself.

No, suitably accurate information isn't there. If you read my post properly you'd understand why.

If you are not expert why do you rubbish the posts of people that are experts. Why do you claim you know better?

I can't name my (accurate) sources. But I've been FAR more often right than wrong in the past. If I guess or speculate I say so.

moro_original

Having looked at Apogee's original post you can see that when the incorrect polarisation is used the 'noise' is 50 dBuV. The signal is circa 62 dBuV, so roughly a 12 dB SNR (based purely on signal amplitude, not considering the modulation).

It would be interesting to have a plot of signal strength / SNR against time with secondary axis giving an indication of relevent weather conditions. A nice project I might have to think about.

watty

Unfortunately that isn't useful unless we know how far he is from the spot that uses that polarisation and frequency, if it's running or not, what sort of test gear it is and the exact weather.

So 12dB SNR is not anything like accurate. Also without knowing the exact weather (it's pissing rain isn't accurate enough) that can't be related to any particular margin. If the red dotted line is about 50dBuV on the edited version of Apogee's screen shot then the real margin was a lot less than 12dB with the weather and dish and alignment he had, given whatever carrier EIRP, FEC, symbol rate and DVB-S2 APSK mode was in use at the time. How much less is really not possible to say. How much Analogue SNR margin is needed for final service? We don't know. So can't assume a particular size dish. At least two usually good sources say 80cm is the minimum. Thus it's arrogance and misleading the public to suggest due to the reception report that "65cm would do".


Then you need to know what Symbol rate, carrier power, FEC and DVB-S2 APSK parameters the real service transmission is using. There simply isn't the information to guess what minimum dish size is needed from that post. I doubt Apogee will ever admit it. He will continue the personal attacks as he has always done when any one criticises any aspect of his posts.

Any report need this from www.met.ie as a minimum:

captured via screen from http://www.met.ie/latest/rainfall_radar.asp

BTW, why shouldn't I claim Apogee is expert, based on the usually high standard and informative nature of his posts.

tomslick

Just have finished my low end setup. Ka lnb taped to the side of a Ku lnb. Dish driven to 13east. Ka feed into port 2 of a 4 way diseqc and into second tuner of a Vu duo. Transponder readings on Vu SNR 50-52%, AGR 43-45%, BER 0. Dish is a Triax 110.

Picture is perfect. Weather is heavy cloud and rain.

Gipo3

dish size?

Apogee

watty wrote: »

I haven't published results of any of my tests as I think the information is worthless. All the publish observations are worthless without knowing what the final live service power & FEC is and if the nearest French and Scottish spots are running with carrier on same or overlapping carrier frequency and what symbol rate and power they are.

Why don't you ask your source to provide the live service power and FEC and then the claim that an 80cm dish is required can be verified?

watty wrote: »

Also I can feed the LNBs to a real Lab bench calibrated HP spectrum analyser to compare levels, not the basic portable ones that installers use. It actually works to 18GHz directly and 47GHz with an external mixer. I have used it on X band and Ku band directly using a Waveguide to Coax transition.

Does the HP unit provide BER readings for DVB-S2 QPSK modulated signals?

Apogee

watty wrote: »

So 12dB SNR is not anything like accurate. Also without knowing the exact weather (it's pissing rain isn't accurate enough) that can't be related to any particular margin. If the red dotted line is about 50dBuV on the edited version of Apogee's screen shot then the real margin was a lot less than 12dB with the weather and dish and alignment he had, given whatever carrier EIRP, FEC, symbol rate and DVB-S2 APSK mode was in use at the time. How much less is really not possible to say. How much Analogue SNR margin is needed for final service? We don't know. So can't assume a particular size dish. At least two usually good sources say 80cm is the minimum. Thus it's arrogance and misleading the public to suggest due to the reception report that "65cm would do".

So you make a big song and dance about not being able to calculate the SNR, and when it's subsequently pointed out to you that the answer was staring you in the face all along, you change tack and dismiss it as irrelevant.

watty wrote: »

Then you need to know what Symbol rate, carrier power, FEC and DVB-S2 APSK parameters the real service transmission is using. There simply isn't the information to guess what minimum dish size is needed from that post.

You're now claiming that an 80cm will be required, despite claiming for the last several months that a 60cm or less would be sufficient. Where's your evidence to support this claim?

watty wrote: »

He will continue the personal attacks as he has always done when any one criticises any aspect of his posts.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

UlsterMan

Got one of the Inverto KA Band LNB's today. Set up a Zone 2 Sky dish (handy at the time) and had no problems getting it to work. Based in Portadown.