RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

moro_original

Any word on whether there will be flat panel / "squarial" type dishes for this service, or will a solid dish be the only option? I believe the Sky style mesh dishes don't work?

Cheers

Sam Russell

A thought struck me. If one gets Tooway through the UK, then the IP address would be a UK one and BBC iPlayer etc would be available. Mmmmm.

watty

I think you might not.

If you are in Ireland it's on the Irish Spot. Whoever resells it (Bentley Walker, SBI, Digiweb) you will get an Irish IP.

If you get it in UK and move it to Ireland it will not work without re-provisioning. It would be a bit like expecting a Virgin Cable Modem to work on UPC here. Or UPC Netherlands Modem to work here, it won't without provisioning.

Besides at low cap and > 700ms latency it's not real Broadband.

watty

moro_original wrote: »

Any word on whether there will be flat panel / "squarial" type dishes for this service, or will a solid dish be the only option? I believe the Sky style mesh dishes don't work?

Cheers

The Sky type dish isn't even good for Ku. Tends to rust. It's technically a perforated dish and it may not be good enough (too rough or holes too big, I will test).

There is no suggestion of flat panel or "squarial" dish. A 44cm boxed cassegrain (it's a real dish in a box with no arm) may work, but it's been suggested to me that the "approved" size is 65cm. Testing in the next few weeks will tell.

We are hampered by fact that no-one will admit to the parameters or EIRP of the beam. Now that there is a transmission we can analyse what is there.

Note a working 44cm dish in clear sky is no proof. We need to know the signal in reasonably heavy rain and when the transmission is at lowest power, or allow a margin for lower power.

ShaneU

Can't figure out if my tv is mpeg4 or not. It's a samsung ps50c450b, google is not being helpful. It has a digital tuner but I can't seem to pick up any channels, tv is less than a year old.

dmm1000

dont think it is MPEG4
from Amazon :-

System
DTV Reception (DVB-T/T2/C/S2): DVB - T / C
DTV Tuner Built-in: Yes
MHP/ MHEG (version): No

but if not MPEG4 and are recieving a signal to TV you should pick up sound only ( and no picture)
If you pick up neither sound nor picture then you're not recieving a good quality Saorview signal

rlogue

watty wrote: »

RTE is supposed to be running an International Service. But the Government has not yet released funding. Since the Government has NOT funded DTT or Saorsat, RTE quite reasonably thinks any service for people OUTSIDE Ireland should be directly funded, like DW is.

Not reasonable.

RTE have been ducking this on the grounds that they expect the Government to fund the transmission costs. Originally the argument used by RTE and their apologists was that since the BBC overseas services were funded by the UK Government therefore any overseas satellite service should be funded by the Irish government. Of course the UK government no longer fund the World Service radio broadcasts and never ever funded the BBC World TV broadcasts in any case.

I guess Conor Hayes and Co. have found that DW-TV is funded by the German government and is now using this as an excuse not to start the official broadcasts.

As a result people will rightly ignore this nonsense and take out Sky subs to watch Irish TV.

But this money is a lost opportunity for RTE as none of it goes to RTE.

RTE have been consistently a bunch of weasels when it comes to providing an overseas service - Conor Hayes shut down Tara TV even though Setanta were about to rescue it and pay all of the money owed by Tara to RTE. Instead Hayes pushed for Tara to be liquidated. Why? Doesn't make business sense, but that's what he and Liam Miller (the RTE appointed directors of the Tara TV board) pushed for according to the examiner's report.

When RTE's hand was forced by Eamon Ryan to provide the service RTE played and continue to play hard ball with the government on the funding issue. Money was found to pay for DTT with or without the bond - but no money is available to take advantage of the growing Irish diaspora around the world?

Jerky RTE player video is fine to a point but people really want proper full definition video.

Hotblack Desiato

rlogue wrote: »

Jerky RTE player video is fine to a point but people really want proper full definition video.

The best thing about RTE player from their point of view is that it's low cost, they don't have to pay the cost of 'transmission' and as broadband will continue to rapidly improve (outside Ireland, anyway!) it will become more and more viable as an alternative to broadcasting for niche audiences.

Why should RTE spend much money to service viewers which aren't very attractive to advertisers and don't pay a licence? Easier to let ISPs take the strain, and far cheaper. Just ask any UK ISP how they feel about BBC iPlayer :pac:

watty

RTE player is not P2P. It's high cost as RTE is paying the data usage of each user. They DO pay the "transmission cost". It's just with number of viewers x length of viewing x bitrate that the cost is not yet high.

The issue with ISPs is Congestion. No ISP is designed for the majority being online streaming at same time.

SD7792

Are you able to pick up these channels using a freest box?

watty

yes and no.
You need a dual or multi-feed dish, or a second dish and a LH Circular Ka band LNBF that is not yet available (will be soon) pointed for 9E. Also a "Freesat" or ANY kind Sky box is no use. You need either a "Freesat HD" box in non-freesat mode or a generic DVB-S2 HD box (but that will have no MHEG5). The MHEG5 ought to work on a "Freesat HD" box but might not. Similarly we don't know yet about "series link"

Freesat uses a "universal" type Orthogonal / Linear Ku Band LNBF pointed at 28E.

http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/saorsat-reception/
http://www.saortv.info/about/faq/

Hotblack Desiato

watty wrote: »

RTE player is not P2P. It's high cost as RTE is paying the data usage of each user. They DO pay the "transmission cost". It's just with number of viewers x length of viewing x bitrate that the cost is not yet high.

They do pay, but the viewers are paying too for the data they receive, whereas with broadcasting the viewer pays nothing (apart from the licence which arguably they need for watching TV on the internet, anyway.)

It doesn't scale well but for niche audiences it's going to get more and more viable in the next few years, we were talking about a niche channel for expats.

The issue with ISPs is Congestion. No ISP is designed for the majority being online streaming at same time.

No. They make money by vastly overselling bandwidth, if everyone actually used what they're paying for their business model would fail badly.

Minstrel27

ninja900 wrote: »

Why should RTE spend much money to service viewers which aren't very attractive to advertisers and don't pay a licence? Easier to let ISPs take the strain, and far cheaper. Just ask any UK ISP how they feel about BBC iPlayer :pac:

I don't understand why they don't turn off encryption when there is a programme they would have clearance for ie. those available internationally on the RTÉ Player. Problem solved. It works for RAI in Italy.

Capt'n Midnight

Early days yet, but which would be the better all in one box solution - or is it much of a muchness ?

A box that does combined sat and DTT

or

one sat box with diseq and two LNB's

Obviously if you've difficulty setting up antenna's or aligning LNB's your choice will be dictated by what you can do.

rlogue

Minstrel27 wrote: »

I don't understand why they don't turn off encryption when there is a programme they would have clearance for ie. those available internationally on the RTÉ Player. Problem solved. It works for RAI in Italy.

Well that would be the obvious and possibly cheapest thing to do! Much of RTE One and TG4's prime time schedules are already clear on the RTE player so why not? After all the issue is regarding sports and imported programming rights so I would agree these programmes must be encrypted but the rest could simply be FTA.

Mr. Rabbit

yes and no.
You need a dual or multi-feed dish, or a second dish and a LH Circular Ka band LNBF that is not yet available (will be soon) pointed for 9E. Also a "Freesat" or ANY kind Sky box is no use. You need either a "Freesat HD" box in non-freesat mode

I assume watty, you could use a seperate Freesat HD box/PVR and dish for Saorsat (i.e. two different systems) and the EPG will work OK ?

That might be a far better solution than attempting to combine Freesat with Saorsat on the one box and dish, even if it is a bit more expensive.

Unless someone can come up with a solution to the EPG problem.

watty

Minstrel27 wrote: »

I don't understand why they don't turn off encryption when there is a programme they would have clearance for ie. those available internationally on the RTÉ Player. Problem solved. It works for RAI in Italy.

Because it's Sky and not an RTE feed. Sky is paying for the Carriage. Their contract even forbids them supplying it to Mainland UK. Sky don't know or care what programs can be FTA.

Also even home produced stuff would cost RTE SOMETHING more if FTA over UK.

watty

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

I assume watty, you could use a seperate Freesat HD box/PVR and dish for Saorsat (i.e. two different systems) and the EPG will work OK ?

That might be a far better solution than attempting to combine Freesat with Saorsat on the one box and dish, even if it is a bit more expensive.

Unless someone can come up with a solution to the EPG problem.

No. Either the EPG will work on the Freesat box or not. It's likely to work. MHEG5 should work too. But it depends on the box.

The only point of Saorsat for people in 98% of the country *IS* to use one Freesat HD PVR for both.

Series link is an unknown.

Why do you think the EPG will not work? RTE unlike Freesat is using standard DVB EPG. Even if they add MHEG5 EPG, that's only extra functionality, which may work anyway on some Freesat HD boxes as Freesat uses MHEG5. It's entirely at discretion of setbox maker (NOT part of Freesat spec) to include Diseqc, MHEG on non Freesat mode. ALL should be working with full EPG as that is simply part of DVB spec.

tmcw

rlogue wrote: »

Well that would be the obvious and possibly cheapest thing to do! Much of RTE One and TG4's prime time schedules are already clear on the RTE player so why not? After all the issue is regarding sports and imported programming rights so I would agree these programmes must be encrypted but the rest could simply be FTA.

I'm sure Sky would have something to say about switching their videoguard on and off. I don't know the arrangements Sky Italia have with RAI, but I understand RTE don't pay Sky (or SES-ASTRA) for carriage on 28E. Changing that arrangement would probably cost RTE, and as an end user who wants the FTA UK channels and the Irish channels, periodic encryption of the Irish channels on 28E would drive me insane, even if it was just for 3 or 4 hours a day.

I'm delighted that RTE/TG4 are going to be on 9E, and look forward to seeing how it pans out over the rest of the year. I would probably watch more RTE/TG4 if I can get them on the same box as the rest of my channels.

Mr. Rabbit

Why do you think the EPG will not work?

Because you said:

You need either a "Freesat HD" box in non-freesat mode

Which I assumed mean't you had to tune RTE (Saorsat) in under the "other channels" option in Freesat (non Frreesat mode) if you were using the one dish and one STB for both services ?

I also assume that if you use a seperate dish and seperate Freesat HD box for Saorsat you'll have access to the full 7 day EPG, not just now and next ? For example, if I used a Humax Freesat HD box (or PVR) and dish solely for Saorsat, I'll get the same features as I have for Freesat, only the the channels will be Saorsat ?

I'm assuming this would probably be far simpler and easier than attempting to combine Freesat with Saorsat in one dish and one STB, even though it would obviovusly be more expensive

Mr. Rabbit

also, I have an old 1 metre Satellite dish (for sky analogue) aligned between 13 and 19 degrees east (in order to receive the old Eutelsat serrvice i.e. BBC World etc.). The dish is not perforated.

If I bought the apropriate LNB, Freesat HD STB/PVR ,and realigned the dish would I be able to receive Saorsat ?

Or will I need as new dish ?

watty

EPG has two meanings:
1) The Freesat Channel listing menu
2) The information like RTE Guide on Program Content

Unless Freesat transmit an EPG placeholder, then Saorsat channels will not be on the EPG in sense (1). Sense(2) should work.

For Humax there is a 3rd party channel editor.

old 1 metre Satellite dish

If the Dish is pointed at 16E then an off axis LH Circular ka Band LNB for 9E would be fine. See http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/saorsat-reception/

You would want either a Multiswitch or two Diseqc switches to use Freesat and PVR features also. 13 & 19E can be kept.

Mr. Rabbit

Another question re. Freesat PVRs

With Freesat+ (i.e. the PVR) a dual LNB at least is needed. I gather that with Saorsat, multi feed LNBs are not required in order to activate the PVR functions. Is this correct ? Do you simply have the one feedline which is split at the PVR inputs ? Or am I talking rubblish ?

Apologies if these questions sound stupid but I've no idea as to what's involved here.

Mr. Rabbit

watty wrote: »

EPG has two meanings:
1) The Freesat Channel listing menu
2) The information like RTE Guide on Program Content

Unless Freesat transmit an EPG placeholder, then Saorsat channels will not be on the EPG in sense (1). Sense(2) should work.

For Humax there is a 3rd party channel editor.


If the Dish is pointed at 16E then an off axis LH Circular ka Band LNB for 9E would be fine. See http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/saorsat-reception/

You would want either a Multiswitch or two Diseqc switches to use Freesat and PVR features also. 13 & 19E can be kept.

Thanks Watty.

See what you're getting at re the EPG (which I assumed mean't the electronic programme guide). I have read that some expats attempting to receive Feesat abroad at the edge of the footprint have this issue.

OK on my old dish and PVR issues. Thanks for the info.

watty

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

Thanks Watty.

See what you're getting at re the EPG (which I assumed mean't the electronic programme guide).

Really the 2nd meaning is Electronic Program Guide.

The 1st is really an Electronic Channel Menu. But It has the EPG "built" in at each channel. A user interface kind of thing.

There is usually a button you can press when on a channel to see the programs related just to that Channel, an Electronic Program Guide!

watty

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

Another question re. Freesat PVRs

With Freesat+ (i.e. the PVR) a dual LNB at least is needed. I gather that with Saorsat, multi feed LNBs are not required in order to activate the PVR functions. Is this correct ? Do you simply have the one feedline which is split at the PVR inputs ? Or am I talking rubblish ?

Apologies if these questions sound stupid but I've no idea as to what's involved here.

Freesat, Sky and most other Ku band services the LNB can be on High or Low band and Horizontal or Vertical polarity, thus you can't split it. You need a Quad or Octo, or for more receivers a Quad or Quattro (each outlet is fixed at one of four possible) feeding a Multi-switch.

But Ka-sat achieves 82 spots by frequency and polarisation reuse. It has 4 dishes on satellite, each fed by 20 to 24 offset feeds, so each feed is reflected to a slightly different place on the ground. Mathematically you only need 4 different types of spots to ensure that no two adjacent spots match.

So any particular Ka-Sat spot will only be using one part of Ka band and one polarisation. Thus if the signal is strong enough a coax can be split to feed two receivers (using a Satellite IF splitter, not a TV F-connector splitter). Or two Diseqc Switches if you want Freesat also. With a multiswitch you only need feed one of the four LNB in ports. You can even have 3/4ths of the channels from another Ku LNB (quattro) on the other 3 ports! Or the two signals from a C-band Dual (H & V or L&R only).

Mr. Rabbit

watty wrote: »

Freesat, Sky and most other Ku band services the LNB can be on High or Low band and Horizontal or Vertical polarity, thus you can't split it. You need a Quad or Octo, or for more receivers a Quad or Quattro (each outlet is fixed at one of four possible) feeding a Multi-switch.

But Ka-sat achieves 82 spots by frequency and polarisation reuse. It has 4 dishes on satellite, each fed by 20 to 24 offset feeds, so each feed is reflected to a slightly different place on the ground. Mathematically you only need 4 different types of spots to ensure that no two adjacent spots match.

So any particular Ka-Sat spot will only be using one part of Ka band and one polarisation. Thus if the signal is strong enough a coax can be split to feed two receivers (using a Satellite IF splitter, not a TV F-connector splitter). Or two Diseqc Switches if you want Freesat also. With a multiswitch you only need feed one of the four LNB in ports. You can even have 3/4ths of the channels from another Ku LNB (quattro) on the other 3 ports! Or the two signals from a C-band Dual (H & V or L&R only).

Thanks watty, I appreciate all the info.

I would imagine this service being very popular up here once it's up and running, especially in areas that can't get Saorview or don't have access to the new RTE mini mux. Places such as the East coast of Antrim (Larne, Glenarm, Carnlough, Waterfoot etc. ) spring to mind. Up until now the only way they could get RTE was through Sky.

It'll be interesting to see how au fait the local aerial/satellite installers are with all the technical issues.

Apogee

Just wanted to see if it was feasible to get a signal on a low quality Lidl dish (that's seen better days). Put Ka-LNB on centre focus + half roll of insulating tape to keep it in place. Signal must be considerably down on what you'd get with a proper integrated LHCP Ka-LNBF.



Locks no problem and no artefacts in video/audio. So wanted to see if I could get 28E on as well - not exactly a work of art, but it works.

Dish


LNB/F span


and rear span

Apogee

As the VU+ can read the Freesat EPG, you should be able to get an integrated EPG like you can with Freesat/Saorview. But the UK EPG was missing...



Yet if you went to the individual channels, you can get the full 7-EPG.

RTE 1


BBC One HD


If you look at the top right corners of the pics, you'll see the time and dates are wrong. Not only are RTE looping the video, but the EPG data is looped as well. So if the box powers on when tuned to the Saorsat channel, it thinks it's 14 April, hence the BBC EPG doesn't appear for 'now'.

Whereas if you power on the box on a Freesat channel, the grid is populated for all the UK channels.


That weirdness aside, an integrated EPG will be possible on Linux boxes when the service goes live. And both Freesat/Saorsat on the one dish connected by a Diseqc switch should be AOK.

watty

I'd say the date/time wierdness is because this is just a pre-encoded file of a transport stream?

Yes, what you illustrated was what I was trying to explain that there are usually two user interfaces to EPG, the "menu guide" and the info when you are on a channel that is only EPG for a single channel.