Incompetent Teachers

Yes Boss

I was watching Panorama last night and they were doing an expose on incompetent teachers in England. In essence, the percentage was quite high but like here in Ireland they were protected by their Unions!

It reminded me of a conversation i had with a friend of mine recently who told me he had to get grinds for a straight A student because the student knew more than the teacher. However, i was discussing this with two teacher friends of mine in a Waterford school who were able to name the teacher in question without too much information.

I was wondering how much of this is actually going on in Waterford in second and third level (without naming any names)!

wobbles

i wouldnt go so far as to say incompetent, but i would say there are a lot of lazy teachers around, who dont want to put in the required work outside of class. I can only say this from lecturers in WIT though. I didnt go through the educational system in Waterford.

I will say that they are in the minority though, and teachers that do their job, will go above and beyond to help out if you ask them. But i do agree that unions are protecting staff who shouldnt be there. The embargo on hiring new staff is also not helping as if someone gets fired, they cant replace them.

Yes Boss

The program suggested that the difference in a good and a bad teacher was a full grade which could impact someone's prospects... The teachers who were found to be incompetent were moved on like the priests were to a new school to continue where they had left off...

MitchKoobski

The incompetent ones are always going to get found out sooner or later, and most of the time it's by the smart students. The thick lads or 'messers' will usually just think "Ah he/she has no clue, this is great, we dont have to do anything". Happened in my secondary school for a while until a couple of the better students confronted the principal about it and the teacher was replaced after christmas.
Easiest way to spot them is when they do nothing but give handouts and make you do questions in class instead of actual theory. Handouts are helpful n all but explain it in brief and then I'll read further, don't just hand it to me and say "Here read this".

ziedth

I had a history "teacher" in school who no word of a lie made us just read from the textbook every class. That's it, no discussion or anything.


I still got an A1 but it was because I had a huge interest in history as a young fella anyway. I think most of the lads in the class bombed out.

me_right_one

Its amazing the talent some teachers have though. I dont really like teachers TBH, I have a few gripes with some, but I had one history teacher in particular, and every single person in the class got an A in the JC. Even this one messer, it was the only A he ever got. When it comes to ability to teach, some people have it, some people dont. I cant understand why they dont make a "method of instruction" course module mandatory in teacher training college. Any teachers views?

tom thum

i htink that some teachers are like zombies cos all they have ever known is a classroom situation, so , in a way they are institutionalised until they retire. also, we had some brutal teachers. but one tht sticks out for me is my old english teacher. i waas doing honours english for the leaving cert and all the way she said i was flying and to keep it going, so, i did. but i still FAILED it. i didnt even pass it. how wrong was she!!!!!

slainte1

me_right_one wrote: »

Its amazing the talent some teachers have though. I dont really like teachers TBH, I have a few gripes with some, but I had one history teacher in particular, and every single person in the class got an A in the JC. Even this one messer, it was the only A he ever got. When it comes to ability to teach, some people have it, some people dont. I cant understand why they dont make a "method of instruction" course module mandatory in teacher training college. Any teachers views?

Teacher training colleges in the Rep of Ireland are called Colleges of Education.
Have you any idea what the curriculum of these colleges consists of ?

slainte1

tom thum wrote: »

i htink that some teachers are like zombies cos all they have ever known is a classroom situation, so , in a way they are institutionalised until they retire. also, we had some brutal teachers. but one tht sticks out for me is my old english teacher. i waas doing honours english for the leaving cert and all the way she said i was flying and to keep it going, so, i did. but i still FAILED it. i didnt even pass it. how wrong was she!!!!!

Perhaps Ordinary Level English would have been more realistic in your case.

PTH2009

its hard for teachers in schools such as De la salle College and The Mercy because they are big schools and a lot of students would be unoticed in a way.

I went to De La Salle and left with an ok leaving cert. had to do Foundation maths and Irish but got an A1 in Ordinary History. Thank god for places like CTI and Fas which are there for students who didnt particly do that well in School but didnt do too bad if u get me.

mozattack

I say it now, teachers are an absolute disgrace.

I know a PE teacher in a large boys school who earns €75k per annum....yes €1,970 per week for the 36 weeks he 'works'. Nevermind the sick pay, pension etc that he has.

I know another teacher who earns €60k for teaching home economics (wow!) while, for example, accountants (qualifed) working near me earn around €35k to €40k with no benefits...

That same person has 3 kids and had them in autumn because they know then that when the (fully paid) maturnity leave is over, they have the summer off. In the space of 5 years she worked around 1.5 to 2 yrs costing the taxpayer €250k at least.

Its a joke... they should be shot.

ziedth

I did foundation Irish too, I just didn't undestand a word I mean not a single bloody word of it and I think I still managed to get like a D2 or something.

It's idiot proof. All just ticking boxes and stuff,

maybe straying a little off topic but I always feel really bad for Maths teachers because I think the Ordinary level is to varied in that I got an A2 which I worked really hard for but wasn't nearly food enough for the higher level but there were lads in the same class who were seriously struggling with the ordinary level as there always is.

slainte1

mozattack wrote: »

I say it now, teachers are an absolute disgrace.

I know a PE teacher in a large boys school who earns €75k per annum....yes €1,970 per week for the 36 weeks he 'works'. Nevermind the sick pay, pension etc that he has.

I know another teacher who earns €60k for teaching home economics (wow!) while, for example, accountants (qualifed) working near me earn around €35k to €40k with no benefits...

That same person has 3 kids and had them in autumn because they know then that when the (fully paid) maturnity leave is over, they have the summer off. In the space of 5 years she worked around 1.5 to 2 yrs costing the taxpayer €250k at least.

Its a joke... they should be shot.

How refreshing it was to read that well-argued critique of our education system. Just as a matter of interest, do you have any idea how many Leaving Cert points one needs for entry to PE college ?

Benimar

mozattack wrote: »

I say it now, teachers are an absolute disgrace.

I know a PE teacher in a large boys school who earns €75k per annum....yes €1,970 per week for the 36 weeks he 'works'. Nevermind the sick pay, pension etc that he has.

I know another teacher who earns €60k for teaching home economics (wow!) while, for example, accountants (qualifed) working near me earn around €35k to €40k with no benefits...

That same person has 3 kids and had them in autumn because they know then that when the (fully paid) maturnity leave is over, they have the summer off. In the space of 5 years she worked around 1.5 to 2 yrs costing the taxpayer €250k at least.

Its a joke... they should be shot.

How dare she claim the right of every working woman in Ireland!

dayshah

ziedth wrote: »

I had a history "teacher" in school who no word of a lie made us just read from the textbook every class. That's it, no discussion or anything.


I still got an A1 but it was because I had a huge interest in history as a young fella anyway. I think most of the lads in the class bombed out.

Secondary school is no place for creative thought. Now type that out 500 times.

Similar experience. Ended up dropping it as a subject on account of this, but go through plenty of history books in my own time.

Edit: in fairness most of my teachers were good and permitted independent thought if it was well founded.

me_right_one

slainte1 wrote: »

Teacher training colleges in the Rep of Ireland are called Colleges of Education.
Have you any idea what the curriculum of these colleges consists of ?

Er, thanks for that random bit of information!?!?!? I'm afraid I cant help you with finding out whats on the curriculum, but one thing I know for sure is that MOI wasn't on it when I last checked a year or two ago. One would imagine it should be the bread and butter of these Colleges of Education.

slainte1

me_right_one wrote: »

Er, thanks for that random bit of information!?!?!? I'm afraid I cant help you with finding out whats on the curriculum, but one thing I know for sure is that MOI wasn't on it when I last checked a year or two ago. One would imagine it should be the bread and butter of these Colleges of Education.

And indeed it is !

me_right_one

slainte1 wrote: »

And indeed it is !

When did it come in?

alabandical

mozattack wrote: »

I say it now, teachers are an absolute disgrace.

I know a PE teacher in a large boys school who earns €75k per annum....yes €1,970 per week for the 36 weeks he 'works'. Nevermind the sick pay, pension etc that he has.

I know another teacher who earns €60k for teaching home economics (wow!) while, for example, accountants (qualifed) working near me earn around €35k to €40k with no benefits...

That same person has 3 kids and had them in autumn because they know then that when the (fully paid) maturnity leave is over, they have the summer off. In the space of 5 years she worked around 1.5 to 2 yrs costing the taxpayer €250k at least.

Its a joke... they should be shot.

In fairness mozattack, your argument is a bit ridiculous.

You're comparing teachers at the top of a pay scale with accountants who are probably at the start of their career.

And what qualifies as 'work' anyway? Any teacher worth their salt puts in a lot more hours than they are paid for.

Yes Boss

Benimar wrote: »

How dare she claim the right of every working woman in Ireland!

I don't think the point is about the teacher claiming 'the right of every working women in Ireland' but the fact that she has strategically had 3 children to ensure that she did not have to work for 3 full years. Now i feel that is milking the system!

jmcc

slainte1 wrote: »

Teacher training colleges in the Rep of Ireland are called Colleges of Education.
Have you any idea what the curriculum of these colleges consists of ?

Reading the answers to the problems in the textbooks?

Regards...jmcc

#15

jmcc wrote: »

Reading the answers to the problems in the textbooks?

Regards...jmcc

Wrong.

#15

me_right_one wrote: »

When did it come in?

More than a year or two ago anyway.

Maybe you should have looked for the word 'methodologies' in the course information.

slainte1

jmcc wrote: »

Reading the answers to the problems in the textbooks?

Regards...jmcc

Thank you for your reply. I think you have demonstrated quite clearly how little you know about what happens in our Colleges of Education. And of course, it must be said, why would you know ?
But given the fact that you know so little perhaps you are not ideally placed to make judgements.

Benimar

Yes Boss wrote: »

I don't think the point is about the teacher claiming 'the right of every working women in Ireland' but the fact that she has strategically had 3 children to ensure that she did not have to work for 3 full years. Now i feel that is milking the system!

I can think of easier ways to get out of work! (She wouldn't have gotten 3 years PAID anyway, it would have been around 2)

To be fair she is milking the system a bit, but that's the systems fault. A lot of women would probably do it if they could.

It's also hard to know without knowing the woman if she is just lazy or wanted to spend as much time as possible with her kids in their formative years.

jmcc

slainte1 wrote: »

Thank you for your reply. I think you have demonstrated quite clearly how little you know about what happens in our Colleges of Education.

So enlighten us then.

Regards...jmcc

MitchKoobski

Benimar wrote: »

I can think of easier ways to get out of work! (She wouldn't have gotten 3 years PAID anyway, it would have been around 2)

To be fair she is milking the system a bit, but that's the systems fault. A lot of women would probably do it if they could.

It's also hard to know without knowing the woman if she is just lazy or wanted to spend as much time as possible with her kids in their formative years.

Naw I had a teacher exactly like that. Completely lazy in 1st and 2nd year. From 3rd year, through transition year and to the end of 6th year I think I saw her for a total of 5 months. Every other time she was either heavily pregnant or on maternity leave.

jmcc

#15 wrote: »

Wrong.

Ah yes! I forgot the drinking, the social affairs and the double lobotomies aspects.

Regards...jmcc

#15

jmcc wrote: »

Ah yes! I forgot the drinking, the social affairs and the double lobotomies aspects.

Regards...jmcc

Wrong again.

Bit of a trend here.

jmcc

#15 wrote: »

Wrong again.

So will you enlighten us as to what goes on there?

Bit of a trend here.

I tend to be a bit cynical when it comes to Irish teachers and their opinions of their intellect and expertise. Some are relatively smart but others are not.

Regards...jmcc

slainte1

jmcc wrote: »

So enlighten us then.

Regards...jmcc

I'm usually up to a challenge but I'm going to pass at attempting to enlighten you jmcc.
You complained in your post that the Colleges of Education did not teach a Method of Instruction "the last time you looked."
This, of course, is complete nonsense, as anyone who has ever attended, or lectured in, any of our Colleges of Education will quickly tell you.
To return to the main thread if I may. Yes of course there are teachers who are lazy and incompetent. They are significantly outnumbered by the teachers who are dedicated and inspirational.
The knee jerk reaction is to crib about long holidays and pay. I say to those people if it's so attractive and the pay is so good and the hours so short why don't they do it ? Very high points are required to gain entry to a College of Education. I have never met a student teacher who entered the profession to become rich.
Teaching is a difficult profession, whether it's at primary, secondary or tertiary level. Nobody's interests are served by bouts of teacher bashing

me_right_one

#15 wrote: »

More than a year or two ago anyway.

Maybe you should have looked for the word 'methodologies' in the course information.

Well I distinctly remember it being raised as a point by a group of teachers at an engineering recruitment research meeting where I work in late 2008, that they basically do not teach you "how" to teach in the COI's, or at least they cover it inadequately. This was a concern from those teachers themselves, and they mooted it as a possible root cause reason as to why third level engineering and science courses are dropping off as a choice for LC students. Their point was that the COI's lack of methodologies, method of instruction, method techniques, call it what you will, was basically churning out plenty of people who knew their subject matter, but were incompetent "teachers". Thanks for replying BTW.

jmcc

slainte1 wrote: »

I'm usually up to a challenge but I'm going to pass at attempting to enlighten you jmcc.

So that's a 'fail' or 'not completed' for you then?

You complained in your post that the Colleges of Education did not teach a Method of Instruction "the last time you looked."

A bit dodgy on the comprehension too. I never complained about any MOI or anything like it. Another fail?

To return to the main thread if I may. Yes of course there are teachers who are lazy and incompetent. They are significantly outnumbered by the teachers who are dedicated and inspirational.

Those who are lazy and incompetent should be removed from the system as they are damaging the futures of those whom they teach.

Very high points are required to gain entry to a College of Education.

It is hardly on a par with Medicine, is it?

Regards...jmcc

#15

jmcc wrote: »

So will you enlighten us as to what goes on there?

No, because

1) I'm not a secondary teacher

and

2) The course content is easily available for anyone who knows how to use the internet.

I tend to be a bit cynical when it comes to Irish teachers and their opinions of their intellect and expertise. Some are relatively smart but others are not.

I tend to be a bit of cynical when it comes to boards posters, their opinions, intellect and expertise. Some are relatively well-informed but others are not.

#15

jmcc wrote: »

It is hardly on a par with Medicine, is it?

Regards...jmcc

No it isn't, that's why the pay isn't on par with doctors.

baronflyguy

I know this is far fetched but i think it would be interesting to have a licence to be a teacher.

take maths for example....

Say every 3 years the math teacher should be tested and examined in higher maths. This could be split into two parts. Written exam and also teaching methods. A random Higher Level Maths topic is selected and the teacher must demonstrate how they would teach that topic to a group of examiners.
This then would remove doubts parents have against schools have competent teachers and also allow schools to dismiss incompetent teachers easier.
If he/she passes they get their licence renewed and everyone is happy.
I wonder would the unions like this idea?

If the teacher is good they will have no bother getting their licence renewed per subject they are entitled to teach.

By the way I would also like to see drivers re examined every 5-10 years. I've come across some brutal drivers lately.

slainte1

jmcc wrote: »

So that's a 'fail' or 'not completed' for you then?

A bit dodgy on the comprehension too. I never complained about any MOI or anything like it. Another fail?

Those who are lazy and incompetent should be removed from the system as they are damaging the futures of those whom they teach.

It is hardly on a par with Medicine, is it?

Regards...jmcc

Congratulations, jmcc. I am crushed and only too happy to admit defeat !

#15

me_right_one wrote: »

Well I distinctly remember it being raised as a point by a group of teachers at an engineering recruitment research meeting where I work in late 2008, that they basically do not teach you "how" to teach in the COI's, or at least they cover it inadequately. This was a concern from those teachers themselves, and they mooted it as a possible root cause reason as to why third level engineering and science courses are dropping off as a choice for LC students. Their point was that the COI's lack of methodologies, method of instruction, method techniques, call it what you will, was basically churning out plenty of people who knew their subject matter, but were incompetent "teachers". Thanks for replying BTW.

Interesting.

Were they primary or secondary teachers?

What subjects did they teach?

Do you know what colleges they complained about btw?

Yes Boss

#15 wrote: »

No it isn't, that's why the pay isn't on par with doctors.

However, an incompetent doctor can be fired!

jmcc

slainte1 wrote: »

Congratulations, jmcc. I am crushed and only too happy to admit defeat !

I guess the tactics of some teachers are still the same (that's if you are a teacher/student teacher). It is far easier to admit defeat than to provide explanations.

Regards...jmcc

rasper

Benimar wrote: »

How dare she claim the right of every working woman in Ireland!

If she is "paid in full" well then thats not the right of every working women in Ireland, open to correction but is maternity leave not similar to a social welfare payment eg. €200 pw , everything else is up to the employer so most workers outside of the unionised PS get nothing but the statutory amount

gowayuwilya

im a teacher myself,three yrs now n i have t agree wit comments about imcompetent teachers,wud agree with the licence format and possibly more inspections if dun correctly.no way shud any teacher ever b made "permanent" its a licence for some tho not all to do f%^k all. however there are a lot like myself mad t teach n delighted t do it but with ould farts taking up posts waiting on pension day what do ya do??didnt join any union n never wil coz they more often dan not they protect those that dont do they're job properly. If any teacher comes in does there best no principal r school wud want t c em go provided they're best is good enuf,if its not good enuf they shud get the road end off...n fyi i have some real world experience before i went teaching so i saw both sides.

Yes Boss

gowayuwilya wrote: »

im a teacher myself,three yrs now n i have t agree wit comments about imcompetent teachers,wud agree with the licence format and possibly more inspections if dun correctly.no way shud any teacher ever b made "permanent" its a licence for some tho not all to do f%^k all. however there are a lot like myself mad t teach n delighted t do it but with ould farts taking up posts waiting on pension day what do ya do??didnt join any union n never wil coz they more often dan not they protect those that dont do they're job properly. If any teacher comes in does there best no principal r school wud want t c em go provided they're best is good enuf,if its not good enuf they shud get the road end off...n fyi i have some real world experience before i went teaching so i saw both sides.

If you are a teacher - can you tell us how extensive the problem is?

After some principles had spoken to the reporter on Panorama last night all the others were silenced - They would not talk as they feared losing their jobs. It would be interesting to know how many are being protected and why?

nkay1985

gowayuwilya wrote: »

im a teacher myself,three yrs now n i have t agree wit comments about imcompetent teachers,wud agree with the licence format and possibly more inspections if dun correctly.no way shud any teacher ever b made "permanent" its a licence for some tho not all to do f%^k all. however there are a lot like myself mad t teach n delighted t do it but with ould farts taking up posts waiting on pension day what do ya do??didnt join any union n never wil coz they more often dan not they protect those that dont do they're job properly. If any teacher comes in does there best no principal r school wud want t c em go provided they're best is good enuf,if its not good enuf they shud get the road end off...n fyi i have some real world experience before i went teaching so i saw both sides.

I'm sorry now but what is it you teach? Because I had to stop reading as that post was making my eyes bleed.

kensutz

gowayuwilya wrote: »

im a teacher myself,three yrs now n i have t agree wit comments about imcompetent teachers,wud agree with the licence format and possibly more inspections if dun correctly.no way shud any teacher ever b made "permanent" its a licence for some tho not all to do f%^k all. however there are a lot like myself mad t teach n delighted t do it but with ould farts taking up posts waiting on pension day what do ya do??didnt join any union n never wil coz they more often dan not they protect those that dont do they're job properly. If any teacher comes in does there best no principal r school wud want t c em go provided they're best is good enuf,if its not good enuf they shud get the road end off...n fyi i have some real world experience before i went teaching so i saw both sides.

I can take it for granted that you're not an english teacher.

deisemum

Having teachers in both my own family as well as having married into a family of teachers plus also knowing teachers socially I've heard quite a lot of very negative things about some teachers and it's not just the odd one either.

What I find shocking is the extent some principals and teachers union reps go to closing rank whenever their is a problem some of which is criminal and the individuals involved should actully do time in jail for some of the abuse they've carried out and should never have access to children. A local garda told me he reckons teachers abusing children will be the next scandal and having done my own research into this I'm not surprised. I've had teachers tell me that they've been threatened to say they haven't seen something they've witnessed.

My older lad had a geography teacher that didn't bother his ass teaching but spent his time "parking his car" or "going on a message".

Having said all that there are some fantastic teachers and having 2 children go through the primary school stage most of their teachers were great and I cannot praise them enough but most of the good ones were the younger teachers. There were a few that were just killing time.

My younger lad has just finished primary school, this is a lad that is self-motivated, has never had to be nagged to do his homework or get in trouble in school and hasn't had any discipline issues and is a very bright child. He's loved his 8 years in primary until a few months ago when his teacher went on maternity leave and the replacement took over.

To say she was a nasty b1tch wouldn't adequately convey my opinion of her. I haven't come across 1 parent that had a good thing to say about her. I sent in a letter requesting an appointment with her and she didn't even have the basic manners to acknowledge it or offer an appointment. It's a shame that she's left him with a bad taste about his primary school experience.

My younger lad loves sport and would like to be a PE teacher, he's already researched it and knows about the points, places etc.

I don't have a problem with the length of teachers holidays, I like when my lads are on holidays and look forward to it.

As for teachers working extra hours well they are not the only ones to do so and not get paid for it. Most people that I know that have jobs put in a lot of extra hours and most of them don't get extra payment of it.

dayshah

There are plenty of unsuitable people doing teaching.

I would never want to be a secondary teacher. Too much hassle (though it is usually the unsuitable teachers that get the most hassle). How can you attract better people without offering higher salaries?

If you are a trained accountant why would you want to teach in a secondary school (though my accounting teacher in DLS was good, but he was old and started when times were different). If you are a good accountant you can get way more money, and don't have to deal with the little sh!ts, in a private company.

Everyone here could have tried to be a teacher if they wanted to, and either weren't good enough or chose not to. How much money would it take to induce you to choose to be a teacher. The unsuitable teachers should be let go/sacked but whats the point unless they are replaced by suitable teachers.

(I was in the top classes for most of my subjects and only found about 10% of teachers bad, though teachers in the bottom classes are more likely to be bad).

Yes Boss

deisemum wrote: »

Having teachers in both my own family as well as having married into a family of teachers plus also knowing teachers socially I've heard quite a lot of very negative things about some teachers and it's not just the odd one either.

What I find shocking is the extent some principals and teachers union reps go to closing rank whenever their is a problem some of which is criminal and the individuals involved should actully do time in jail for some of the abuse they've carried out and should never have access to children. A local garda told me he reckons teachers abusing children will be the next scandal and having done my own research into this I'm not surprised. I've had teachers tell me that they've been threatened to say they haven't seen something they've witnessed.

My older lad had a geography teacher that didn't bother his ass teaching but spent his time "parking his car" or "going on a message".

Having said all that there are some fantastic teachers and having 2 children go through the primary school stage most of their teachers were great and I cannot praise them enough but most of the good ones were the younger teachers. There were a few that were just killing time.

My younger lad has just finished primary school, this is a lad that is self-motivated, has never had to be nagged to do his homework or get in trouble in school and hasn't had any discipline issues and is a very bright child. He's loved his 8 years in primary until a few months ago when his teacher went on maternity leave and the replacement took over.

To say she was a nasty b1tch wouldn't adequately convey my opinion of her. I haven't come across 1 parent that had a good thing to say about her. I sent in a letter requesting an appointment with her and she didn't even have the basic manners to acknowledge it or offer an appointment. It's a shame that she's left him with a bad taste about his primary school experience.

My younger lad loves sport and would like to be a PE teacher, he's already researched it and knows about the points, places etc.

I don't have a problem with the length of teachers holidays, I like when my lads are on holidays and look forward to it.

As for teachers working extra hours well they are not the only ones to do so and not get paid for it. Most people that I know that have jobs put in a lot of extra hours and most of them don't get extra payment of it.

That is truly shocking and in line with what was being reported on Panorama!

#15

Yes Boss wrote: »

However, an incompetent doctor can be fired!

I would fully support measures to fire incompetent teachers.

Yes Boss

#15 wrote: »

I would fully support measures to fire incompetent teachers.

Why is it not already in place?

#15

Yes Boss wrote: »

Why is it not already in place?

I have no real idea.

I can make an educated guess at it:

Administrative incompetence (ie Govt or Dept of Ed.)
Unions being stubborn about it
Difficulties in finding an objective way of performance measurement

Now that could be wrong - but it's the best I can come up with as I don't have enough information to go beyond speculation. I think it's a reasonable guess though.