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Child Item

Incompetent Teachers

Yes Boss

I was watching Panorama last night and they were doing an expose on incompetent teachers in England. In essence, the percentage was quite high but like here in Ireland they were protected by their Unions!

It reminded me of a conversation i had with a friend of mine recently who told me he had to get grinds for a straight A student because the student knew more than the teacher. However, i was discussing this with two teacher friends of mine in a Waterford school who were able to name the teacher in question without too much information.

I was wondering how much of this is actually going on in Waterford in second and third level (without naming any names)!

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me_right_one

#15 wrote: »

More than a year or two ago anyway.

Maybe you should have looked for the word 'methodologies' in the course information.

Well I distinctly remember it being raised as a point by a group of teachers at an engineering recruitment research meeting where I work in late 2008, that they basically do not teach you "how" to teach in the COI's, or at least they cover it inadequately. This was a concern from those teachers themselves, and they mooted it as a possible root cause reason as to why third level engineering and science courses are dropping off as a choice for LC students. Their point was that the COI's lack of methodologies, method of instruction, method techniques, call it what you will, was basically churning out plenty of people who knew their subject matter, but were incompetent "teachers". Thanks for replying BTW.

jmcc

slainte1 wrote: »

I'm usually up to a challenge but I'm going to pass at attempting to enlighten you jmcc.

So that's a 'fail' or 'not completed' for you then?

You complained in your post that the Colleges of Education did not teach a Method of Instruction "the last time you looked."

A bit dodgy on the comprehension too. I never complained about any MOI or anything like it. Another fail?

To return to the main thread if I may. Yes of course there are teachers who are lazy and incompetent. They are significantly outnumbered by the teachers who are dedicated and inspirational.

Those who are lazy and incompetent should be removed from the system as they are damaging the futures of those whom they teach.

Very high points are required to gain entry to a College of Education.

It is hardly on a par with Medicine, is it?

Regards...jmcc

#15

jmcc wrote: »

So will you enlighten us as to what goes on there?

No, because

1) I'm not a secondary teacher

and

2) The course content is easily available for anyone who knows how to use the internet.

I tend to be a bit cynical when it comes to Irish teachers and their opinions of their intellect and expertise. Some are relatively smart but others are not.

I tend to be a bit of cynical when it comes to boards posters, their opinions, intellect and expertise. Some are relatively well-informed but others are not.

#15

jmcc wrote: »

It is hardly on a par with Medicine, is it?

Regards...jmcc

No it isn't, that's why the pay isn't on par with doctors.

baronflyguy

I know this is far fetched but i think it would be interesting to have a licence to be a teacher.

take maths for example....

Say every 3 years the math teacher should be tested and examined in higher maths. This could be split into two parts. Written exam and also teaching methods. A random Higher Level Maths topic is selected and the teacher must demonstrate how they would teach that topic to a group of examiners.
This then would remove doubts parents have against schools have competent teachers and also allow schools to dismiss incompetent teachers easier.
If he/she passes they get their licence renewed and everyone is happy.
I wonder would the unions like this idea?

If the teacher is good they will have no bother getting their licence renewed per subject they are entitled to teach.

By the way I would also like to see drivers re examined every 5-10 years. I've come across some brutal drivers lately.

slainte1

jmcc wrote: »

So that's a 'fail' or 'not completed' for you then?

A bit dodgy on the comprehension too. I never complained about any MOI or anything like it. Another fail?

Those who are lazy and incompetent should be removed from the system as they are damaging the futures of those whom they teach.

It is hardly on a par with Medicine, is it?

Regards...jmcc

Congratulations, jmcc. I am crushed and only too happy to admit defeat !

#15

me_right_one wrote: »

Well I distinctly remember it being raised as a point by a group of teachers at an engineering recruitment research meeting where I work in late 2008, that they basically do not teach you "how" to teach in the COI's, or at least they cover it inadequately. This was a concern from those teachers themselves, and they mooted it as a possible root cause reason as to why third level engineering and science courses are dropping off as a choice for LC students. Their point was that the COI's lack of methodologies, method of instruction, method techniques, call it what you will, was basically churning out plenty of people who knew their subject matter, but were incompetent "teachers". Thanks for replying BTW.

Interesting.

Were they primary or secondary teachers?

What subjects did they teach?

Do you know what colleges they complained about btw?

Yes Boss

#15 wrote: »

No it isn't, that's why the pay isn't on par with doctors.

However, an incompetent doctor can be fired!

jmcc

slainte1 wrote: »

Congratulations, jmcc. I am crushed and only too happy to admit defeat !

I guess the tactics of some teachers are still the same (that's if you are a teacher/student teacher). It is far easier to admit defeat than to provide explanations.

Regards...jmcc

rasper

Benimar wrote: »

How dare she claim the right of every working woman in Ireland!

If she is "paid in full" well then thats not the right of every working women in Ireland, open to correction but is maternity leave not similar to a social welfare payment eg. €200 pw , everything else is up to the employer so most workers outside of the unionised PS get nothing but the statutory amount

gowayuwilya

im a teacher myself,three yrs now n i have t agree wit comments about imcompetent teachers,wud agree with the licence format and possibly more inspections if dun correctly.no way shud any teacher ever b made "permanent" its a licence for some tho not all to do f%^k all. however there are a lot like myself mad t teach n delighted t do it but with ould farts taking up posts waiting on pension day what do ya do??didnt join any union n never wil coz they more often dan not they protect those that dont do they're job properly. If any teacher comes in does there best no principal r school wud want t c em go provided they're best is good enuf,if its not good enuf they shud get the road end off...n fyi i have some real world experience before i went teaching so i saw both sides.

Yes Boss

gowayuwilya wrote: »

im a teacher myself,three yrs now n i have t agree wit comments about imcompetent teachers,wud agree with the licence format and possibly more inspections if dun correctly.no way shud any teacher ever b made "permanent" its a licence for some tho not all to do f%^k all. however there are a lot like myself mad t teach n delighted t do it but with ould farts taking up posts waiting on pension day what do ya do??didnt join any union n never wil coz they more often dan not they protect those that dont do they're job properly. If any teacher comes in does there best no principal r school wud want t c em go provided they're best is good enuf,if its not good enuf they shud get the road end off...n fyi i have some real world experience before i went teaching so i saw both sides.

If you are a teacher - can you tell us how extensive the problem is?

After some principles had spoken to the reporter on Panorama last night all the others were silenced - They would not talk as they feared losing their jobs. It would be interesting to know how many are being protected and why?

nkay1985

gowayuwilya wrote: »

im a teacher myself,three yrs now n i have t agree wit comments about imcompetent teachers,wud agree with the licence format and possibly more inspections if dun correctly.no way shud any teacher ever b made "permanent" its a licence for some tho not all to do f%^k all. however there are a lot like myself mad t teach n delighted t do it but with ould farts taking up posts waiting on pension day what do ya do??didnt join any union n never wil coz they more often dan not they protect those that dont do they're job properly. If any teacher comes in does there best no principal r school wud want t c em go provided they're best is good enuf,if its not good enuf they shud get the road end off...n fyi i have some real world experience before i went teaching so i saw both sides.

I'm sorry now but what is it you teach? Because I had to stop reading as that post was making my eyes bleed.

kensutz

gowayuwilya wrote: »

im a teacher myself,three yrs now n i have t agree wit comments about imcompetent teachers,wud agree with the licence format and possibly more inspections if dun correctly.no way shud any teacher ever b made "permanent" its a licence for some tho not all to do f%^k all. however there are a lot like myself mad t teach n delighted t do it but with ould farts taking up posts waiting on pension day what do ya do??didnt join any union n never wil coz they more often dan not they protect those that dont do they're job properly. If any teacher comes in does there best no principal r school wud want t c em go provided they're best is good enuf,if its not good enuf they shud get the road end off...n fyi i have some real world experience before i went teaching so i saw both sides.

I can take it for granted that you're not an english teacher.

deisemum

Having teachers in both my own family as well as having married into a family of teachers plus also knowing teachers socially I've heard quite a lot of very negative things about some teachers and it's not just the odd one either.

What I find shocking is the extent some principals and teachers union reps go to closing rank whenever their is a problem some of which is criminal and the individuals involved should actully do time in jail for some of the abuse they've carried out and should never have access to children. A local garda told me he reckons teachers abusing children will be the next scandal and having done my own research into this I'm not surprised. I've had teachers tell me that they've been threatened to say they haven't seen something they've witnessed.

My older lad had a geography teacher that didn't bother his ass teaching but spent his time "parking his car" or "going on a message".

Having said all that there are some fantastic teachers and having 2 children go through the primary school stage most of their teachers were great and I cannot praise them enough but most of the good ones were the younger teachers. There were a few that were just killing time.

My younger lad has just finished primary school, this is a lad that is self-motivated, has never had to be nagged to do his homework or get in trouble in school and hasn't had any discipline issues and is a very bright child. He's loved his 8 years in primary until a few months ago when his teacher went on maternity leave and the replacement took over.

To say she was a nasty b1tch wouldn't adequately convey my opinion of her. I haven't come across 1 parent that had a good thing to say about her. I sent in a letter requesting an appointment with her and she didn't even have the basic manners to acknowledge it or offer an appointment. It's a shame that she's left him with a bad taste about his primary school experience.

My younger lad loves sport and would like to be a PE teacher, he's already researched it and knows about the points, places etc.

I don't have a problem with the length of teachers holidays, I like when my lads are on holidays and look forward to it.

As for teachers working extra hours well they are not the only ones to do so and not get paid for it. Most people that I know that have jobs put in a lot of extra hours and most of them don't get extra payment of it.

dayshah

There are plenty of unsuitable people doing teaching.

I would never want to be a secondary teacher. Too much hassle (though it is usually the unsuitable teachers that get the most hassle). How can you attract better people without offering higher salaries?

If you are a trained accountant why would you want to teach in a secondary school (though my accounting teacher in DLS was good, but he was old and started when times were different). If you are a good accountant you can get way more money, and don't have to deal with the little sh!ts, in a private company.

Everyone here could have tried to be a teacher if they wanted to, and either weren't good enough or chose not to. How much money would it take to induce you to choose to be a teacher. The unsuitable teachers should be let go/sacked but whats the point unless they are replaced by suitable teachers.

(I was in the top classes for most of my subjects and only found about 10% of teachers bad, though teachers in the bottom classes are more likely to be bad).

Yes Boss

deisemum wrote: »

Having teachers in both my own family as well as having married into a family of teachers plus also knowing teachers socially I've heard quite a lot of very negative things about some teachers and it's not just the odd one either.

What I find shocking is the extent some principals and teachers union reps go to closing rank whenever their is a problem some of which is criminal and the individuals involved should actully do time in jail for some of the abuse they've carried out and should never have access to children. A local garda told me he reckons teachers abusing children will be the next scandal and having done my own research into this I'm not surprised. I've had teachers tell me that they've been threatened to say they haven't seen something they've witnessed.

My older lad had a geography teacher that didn't bother his ass teaching but spent his time "parking his car" or "going on a message".

Having said all that there are some fantastic teachers and having 2 children go through the primary school stage most of their teachers were great and I cannot praise them enough but most of the good ones were the younger teachers. There were a few that were just killing time.

My younger lad has just finished primary school, this is a lad that is self-motivated, has never had to be nagged to do his homework or get in trouble in school and hasn't had any discipline issues and is a very bright child. He's loved his 8 years in primary until a few months ago when his teacher went on maternity leave and the replacement took over.

To say she was a nasty b1tch wouldn't adequately convey my opinion of her. I haven't come across 1 parent that had a good thing to say about her. I sent in a letter requesting an appointment with her and she didn't even have the basic manners to acknowledge it or offer an appointment. It's a shame that she's left him with a bad taste about his primary school experience.

My younger lad loves sport and would like to be a PE teacher, he's already researched it and knows about the points, places etc.

I don't have a problem with the length of teachers holidays, I like when my lads are on holidays and look forward to it.

As for teachers working extra hours well they are not the only ones to do so and not get paid for it. Most people that I know that have jobs put in a lot of extra hours and most of them don't get extra payment of it.

That is truly shocking and in line with what was being reported on Panorama!

#15

Yes Boss wrote: »

However, an incompetent doctor can be fired!

I would fully support measures to fire incompetent teachers.

Yes Boss

#15 wrote: »

I would fully support measures to fire incompetent teachers.

Why is it not already in place?

#15

Yes Boss wrote: »

Why is it not already in place?

I have no real idea.

I can make an educated guess at it:

Administrative incompetence (ie Govt or Dept of Ed.)
Unions being stubborn about it
Difficulties in finding an objective way of performance measurement

Now that could be wrong - but it's the best I can come up with as I don't have enough information to go beyond speculation. I think it's a reasonable guess though.

deisemum

Principals can find it very difficult to get rid of a bad teacher and have to contend with union reps who will protect the teacher at all costs. Often the only way to get rid of such teachers is to see them promoted and moved on elsewhere.

When one of my son's was 9 he was abused by a teacher a couple of times before we found out. I'm still disgusted at the extent the principal with the backing of the then parish priest went to with the sickest sort of threats that were made at me to try and frighten me into not reporting it to the gardai, we did and that put a stop to it.

What I cannot understand is how principals who are meant to be educated tell blatent lies to parents if you make a complaint about a teacher. They will tell you that there's never been a complaint about the teacher and praise them up no end but when you turn round and tell them that other parents which you can name have told you that they too have complained about the same teacher to the principal he/she are then forced to admit that yes there have been complaints.

Are these the right sort of people to have in charge of children and childrens welfare? I think not because they're more worried about protecting the reputation of the school at all costs.

#15

deisemum wrote: »

Are these the right sort of people to have in charge of children and childrens welfare?

No they're not.

I hope you followed up with the relevant authorities, those people should be prosecuted.

tom thum

slainte1 wrote: »

Perhaps Ordinary Level English would have been more realistic in your case.

do you really think so?? i mean the dog on the street could see that, but she couldnt. and she was assuring me that i was on the right track to an honour.

Sikie

I have no real idea.

I can make an educated guess at it:

Administrative incompetence (ie Govt or Dept of Ed.)
Unions being stubborn about it
Difficulties in finding an objective way of performance measurement

Now that could be wrong - but it's the best I can come up with as I don't have enough information to go beyond speculation. I think it's a reasonable guess though

Lack of political will to introduce performance management and link it with real consequences like pay and your job! How many ex-teachers are in the government!!!

#15

Sikie wrote: »

Lack of political will to introduce performance management and link it with real consequences like pay and your job! How many ex-teachers are in the government!!!

No need to shout.

bogs

ziedth wrote: »

I did foundation Irish too, I just didn't undestand a word I mean not a single bloody word of it and I think I still managed to get like a D2 or something.

It's idiot proof. All just ticking boxes and stuff,

maybe straying a little off topic but I always feel really bad for Maths teachers because I think the Ordinary level is to varied in that I got an A2 which I worked really hard for but wasn't nearly food enough for the higher level but there were lads in the same class who were seriously struggling with the ordinary level as there always is.

Iwent to CBS Carrick on Suir secondary school and the Maths and English teachers overlooked the pass level students and concentrated on the honours guys instead hense the deplorable results from the pass class.Note there was a percentage of messers in this pass class.

gowayuwilya

nkay1985 wrote: »

I'm sorry now but what is it you teach? Because I had to stop reading as that post was making my eyes bleed.

im not an english teacher,didnt realise i was to type using harvard referencing sorry!! i teach practical subjects n no english is def not my strong point but subject knowledge in my own area is n t b honest dats all that matters

looksee

gowayuwilya wrote: »

im not an english teacher,didnt realise i was to type using harvard referencing sorry!! i teach practical subjects n no english is def not my strong point but subject knowledge in my own area is n t b honest dats all that matters

Are you serious? I smiled when I read your post, or the first couple of lines anyway, as I assumed it was a joke, and given the subject matter, quite a good one. If you are serious then its nearer to trolling. I also teach mostly practical subjects, but it doesn't mean I'm illiterate.

Looking at your post again it is obvious that your spelling and grammar is fine, you are just choosing to use text speak and abbreviations - presumably because you think it looks cool? You don't write teaching notes and reports like that, so do us all a favour and drop the txt spk.

mozattack

As i said in my earlier post. They are a disgrace.

They have priced themselves so far into the sky with telephone number salaries that the country cannot afford to hire more (much needed) younger teachers...

These grade E "professionals" should earn €25k - €35k per annum and not €55k - €75k p.a.

nkay1985

gowayuwilya wrote: »

im not an english teacher,didnt realise i was to type using harvard referencing sorry!! i teach practical subjects n no english is def not my strong point but subject knowledge in my own area is n t b honest dats all that matters

That's fair enough but your post reads like something one of your students would write, not someone who's teaching them. Like looksee said, your grammar and level of English are fine but you're using text speak which apparently creeps into written English too (I saw a university lecturer speaking on this point about six months ago). You may teach a practical subject but you'd still have to do some writing surely! I just think it sets a bad example for young people if they see their teachers using text speak is all.