Luas Red Line (Junkie & Wino Bus)

Aidan1

Murph, I've a better term - 'civil society'. There was some good points in that article (some major flaws too), but a critical one was the reference to the rise of 'city Governments' in other countries, and how directly elected officials were quickly mandated to go and sort out criminality, and could actually do so by pulling agencies together. The cleaning up of Times Square is the classic example, and the absolute model Dublin should pursue, particularly for the Quays. If that means zero tolerance and/or a 'three strikes and you're out' method, even better. Talking to Gardai here, their job is practically impossible - there are people out there with hundreds of criminal convictions, who only ever serve a week or two of prison at the time. Arresting them basically just takes up time doing paperwork, and the prisons are full - putting some one in means that someone else has to leave. This problem requires Government action, and if national Government won't or can't do anything about it, the local Govt better.

I've a pet theory that people in Dublin have largely become blind to the level of crime and intimidation over time. When I arrived in Dublin, after living in Cork city for a few years, I could not get over the disorganised, chaotic mess that Dublin was, and the pervasive nature of crime and the heroin problemn particular. The physical infrastructure and traffic has gotten better over the years, but the crime problem hasn't.

I'm one of those people who got so sick of scumbags on the bus that I went and bought a bike. In 'up and coming areas' of the city, crime and 'anti-social behaviour are major barriers for the use of public transport. Some routes are fine, and others are only for the brave. The 78A from Aston Quay is a challenge from the outset, particularly if you're travelling after 7 and all the bus passes are out. To the be fair, the Gardai do try, I saw plain clothes Gardai on the bus a few times (they used get off at my stop, into an unmarked car, and back into town), but it's not exactly possible to put Gardai on every bus.

AlekSmart

I'm one of those people who got so sick of scumbags on the bus that I went and bought a bike. In 'up and coming areas' of the city, crime and 'anti-social behaviour are major barriers for the use of public transport. Some routes are fine, and others are only for the brave. The 78A from Aston Quay is a challenge from the outset, particularly if you're travelling after 7 and all the bus passes are out.

Another good level-headed post from what I take to be an "ordinary-Joe"

It is my fervent belief that unless the Civic Authorities,Government Departments and my own employers begin to recognize the reality that there are many many more Aidan 1`s who never post of their experiences but simply go and do something about it.

That usually means deciding to abandon Public Transport as a viable or safe means of getting around..

This attitude when allowed to become widespread,spells the death of Public Transport which "Serves all of the Community" replacing it with a far less desirable entity altogether.

It a wakeup post...for sure !!

trellheim

To move back onto the specific topic, this is one I have strong feelings on. The black uniforms can sometimes be seen on the Red line.

Now, you look at revenue protection units. Green line all day long they are like flies on s***te.

Red line it's like tumbleweed city for seeing any Veolia red hi-viz. I do honestly think there's an unspoken lack of enforcement on certain sections/times , as it seems easier to hassle white collar types for the penalty fares, instead of the trams being held up by junkies who won't get off.

foggy_lad

trellheim wrote: »

To move back onto the specific topic, this is one I have strong feelings on. The black uniforms can sometimes be seen on the Red line.

Now, you look at revenue protection units. Green line all day long they are like flies on s***te.

Red line it's like tumbleweed city for seeing any Veolia red hi-viz. I do honestly think there's an unspoken lack of enforcement on certain sections/times , as it seems easier to hassle white collar types for the penalty fares, instead of the trams being held up by junkies who won't get off.

there is more to be made by the white collar types who try to evade the fare than the scumbags who most likely have a pass, the white collar types will actually pay the fine while any scumbags caught well it can be added to a long list of misdameanors!

also there is the whole health and safety aspect for veolia staff who are possibly not allowed patrol the red line at certain times?

stovelid

It's probably going to get worse when the Saggart extension brings it through West Tallaght.

I'm not having a snobbish pop at WT by the way, as I grew up there.

Judgement Day

stovelid wrote: »

It's probably going to get worse when the Saggart extension brings it through West Tallaght.

I'm not having a snobbish pop at WT by the way, as I grew up there.

Yes, and the Green Line will see an increase in trouble once the cross city link-up is made. The DART had a similar effect when it came on stream. I think it was the oft quoted Duke of Wellington who disapproved of railways on the grounds that they would allow the masses to wander aimlessly - how right he was.

mikemac

Aidan1 wrote: »

The 78A from Aston Quay is a challenge from the outset, particularly if you're travelling after 7 and all the bus passes are out.

A challenge is putting it lightly!
I too got the 78A for over a year, my Luas and DB ticket cost over 900 euro though there was tax incentives too. A good price I reckon but dealing with 78A to Ballyfermot and Red Line Luas wasn't worth it.

So like yourself Aidan1, I too got a bike, didn't renew my ticket and DB and Veola are down 900 euro, I doubt they even care.
As when I used the bus, every troublemaker seemed to have battered cardboard pass which they'd wave at the driver or shout Pass. No need to scan these at all so who tracks how many are out there, must the worlds easiest ID to fake.
If Dublin Bus wish to put their needs over fare paying customers then I won't tell them how to run their business.

The service was frequest, the 79/79A were even faster and there were one or drivers that very friendly, you'd get to know them, I haven't a bad word to say about the drivers.
But where are the inspectors/gardai/security?

I realy doubt I'm the only person to give up an annual ticket and it was the topic of this thread that lost my fares.
And now Dublin Bus management will scream they are losing money so will cut even more services and lay off drivers, vicious cycle I suppose but I can't believe they are not aware of what is happening.
Maybe they lack the will to do anything.

I dreaded the 78A after 7pm :mad: And the Luas wasn't much better up to Bluebell

eia340600

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

never had a single issue or noticed scummers causing trouble
in London
...

KD345 wrote: »

This problem has been happening for years now, and in typical Irish fashion, the same issues exist. No other capital city would allow a public transport system with 90,000 daily passengers be subjected to the same problems that face commuters on the Luas red line.

I have been to London many times and know that when you walk into an underground station outside of peak time your risking, at the your wallet.

I mean are you people that naive?Countries across Europe and the world have major problems on their public transport systems.

I havn't ever been the victim of anything on the LUAS myself but yesterday three junkies boarded.They were loud and smelly and were generally just causing a fuss.At the next stop, 4 ticket inspectors got on(safety in numbers?) and marched straight for the loudmouth druggies.Instantly the three whipped out "free travel" passes.There was nothing the inspectors could do.And the three remained on board, much to the perturbance of other passengers who were being asked for "a lend o' yer phone pleazz mistuur".

I mean how do they expect to keep the lines safe if every scumbag in the city is given a free pass???

dfx-

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

The red line is all that is wrong with Dublin in a convenient highly visible package.
should really be an activity for adventure tourists.

Bolivia's Death Road would pale by comparison..

trellheim

Black uniform security guards on duty @ Jervis St @ 1700 today, also 1xVeolia, same at Abbey St.

Hello : Dear Lurking Veolia Managers : More of this kind of thing please it really does work.

foggy_lad

trellheim wrote: »

Black uniform security guards on duty @ Jervis St @ 1700 today, also 1xVeolia, same at Abbey St.

Hello : Dear Lurking Veolia Managers : More of this kind of thing please it really does work.

if only they could travel around in an old black commer van and spring out where and when needed, where is "lugs" brannigan when needed!

Red Alert

The ticket inspectors should be given the power to withdraw a free travel pass where the people involved have been misbehaving. Same facility should be given to a bus driver.

foggy_lad

Red Alert wrote: »

The ticket inspectors should be given the power to withdraw a free travel pass where the people involved have been misbehaving. Same facility should be given to a bus driver.

aqfaik they already have the power to keep the passes if they suspect fraud and they certainly have the power to put the scumbags off the bus or tram if misbehaving.

JupiterKid

I think we've all pretty much reached the consensus that a serious problem with anti-social behaviour exists along the LUAS Red line and action needs to be taken.

More visible security and gardai prescence at the stops would be a good start.

The problem on the LUAS Red lione are symptomatic of wider problems in Ireland of a distinct lack of respect for civic and public spaces and facilities. It comes from a society that does not have a long history of urbanisation.

AlekSmart

It comes from a society that does not have a long history of urbanisation.

A point JupiterKid,perhaps....but right now there is hardly a village,parish or townland in Ireland that does not have serious problems with civil commotion or just downright savage behaviour.

It fills the pages of Parish Journals,Local Papers and the airwave time of Local Radio usually accompanied by the qualification that it`s the work of a "small minority" ......the reality is that it may be small to begin with but the ability to get away with yahoo`ism adds greatly to the cachet of whatever local half-wit manages it.

Once the Village Idiot has "bested" the system he/she can and usually does move on to greater anti-social doings...one only needs to take account of the substantial amount of "Juvenile Liason Scheme" and "Benefit of the Probation Act" rulings to see how the assembly line works.....and it works like a well oiled machine.

For the less savage and half civilized person there remains little incentive to behave in a sensible and refined manner...there will be no accolade,no support or recognition from the State,you`ll just be expected to get on with it and work your ass off to pay the legal costs of the wild eyed,sneering and supremely confident baloubas who march in and,more importantly,out of our Courts each and every day.

Thats my take on it......Y`all have a nice day now,Y`hear...

trellheim

Spotted a Garda on a Red Line tram at Jervis this AM

wintear

The Guards are always on the Red Line since the court opened up on Parkgate street but they don't seem to be interested in getting involved. Maybe they are only there to go to the court. It is easy enough to identify them by the shoes no matter how high they zip up their jackets.

The problem on the red line is that the only people caught and prosecuted for Fare evasion are "normal" people any one likely to cause trouble is avoided or asked to leave the tram.

mikemac

wintear wrote: »

The problem on the red line is that the only people caught and prosecuted for Fare evasion are "normal" people any one likely to cause trouble is avoided or asked to leave the tram.

So, so true
If you hold your hands up and give your name and address you get a fine.
Act aggressively and swear at the ticket collector and you'll be put off at the next stop, no fine.
And then you get the next tram

foggy_lad

trellheim wrote: »

Spotted a Garda on a Red Line tram at Jervis this AM

i have often seen guards on the red line with their phones out getting pictures of people at different stops, intelligenge gathering? their presence does help but they are simply too busy to patrol the trams.

foggy_lad

feelingstressed wrote: »

So, so true
If you hold your hands up and give your name and address you get a fine.
Act aggressively and swear at the ticket collector and you'll be put off at the next stop, no fine.
And then you get the next tram

you also get the idea that you cant or wont be touched by veolia or the law and you get braver untill some poor customer gets stabbed for refusing to hand over their change or for turning away.

mikemac

Indeed, a lot of people involved in assaults and stabbings will have a string of convictions behind them, starting when they were young.
No stranger to the children's court on small stupid things like shoplifting and stealing bikes or not paying fares but it gets more and more serious until someone gets badly hurt.
The cycle needs to be stopped while they are young

Whoh, that's a post for another thread, going off topic

BenShermin

I notice Dublin Bus have started to put up advertisements on fare evasion. The new ads go along the lines of "the difference between €1.15 and €1.60 could be the standard fare of €50". If that's the case what's the difference between a fake DFSA pass and a real one:rolleyes:? It sure as **** isn't a €50 fine!!

During the boom times the minister in charge of the Department of Social and Family affairs had an easy job. Money was just thrown at at problems to sugarcoat them in a time when the white collars of society were too busy with low taxes and easy credit to give a ****e about the solitary beggar on the Ha'penny bridge of a cold but sunny celtic tiger morning. But hey, many a white collar gent threw a few €2 coins into McDonald's cups of down and outs to act like they gave a damn without having to volunteer for the Simon community. Both the Government and many of us normal workers threw money at a seemingly small homeless problem.

A sober walk through Dublin City at 1am back in the early noughties showed the beginings of a true problem for our city. So called down and outs went to the eateries of middle class drunkards. Sometimes the foreign fast food clerk handed as much as a €50 note to the down and out in exchange for the the coin content of his McDonald's cup. Couple that €50 that some earned every night along with dole payments from the Government and you had the reciepe for a serious problem if a recession was ever to happen.

Nowadays the McDonald's cups are remaining empty after the coffee is gone, the down and outs have evolved into beings that search for money. The annoyance of being asked for spare change 20 times a day has replaced the harmless beggar with the cup. A black market has fueled this more agressive beggar with the likes of €4 ciggarette packs, dodgy DFSA passes and cheap hash for the 78A bus journey from the drug rehab clinic at Cherry Orchard to the herion dealers off Thomas Street. All law abiding public transport users are encountering uncomfortable and sometimes very scary situations at the hands of Dublin's newly evolved down and outs.

I've no idea as to an overall solution to the problem. In the short term though the DFSA and the DoT need to work together to totally scrap the free travel scheme to anybody under the age of 66. Both departments could do this when the overall smart card is issued.

The minister for children needs to make it easier for social workers to put children into foster homes when their real parents are using illigal drugs. If this doesn't happen we'll just end up with thousands of children who want to grow up to be just like mammy and daddy.

The new laws being implimented on begging are a good start but let's face it, putting every junkie into jail will just be a waste of Garda time and will cost on taxes. Instead the minister for Justice needs to allow for tougher sentences for any kind of drug dealing. 25 years in jail should be the target. He has to make it look like a very risky enterprise to get involved in.

Finally, the majority of Irish people need to stand up to the minority every single day. Too many ordinary people are switching to cars because of junkies on buses, too many people still give beggars money on the street. There's no way I'm giving up my cheap 78A commute in favour of a car that will cripple me in tax and insurance, and I'd rather tell a junkie to f*** off than give him even two cent on the street.

We could get OUR city back, but I do fear that it's gone forever:(.

Terrontress

eia340600 wrote: »

I have been to London many times and know that when you walk into an underground station outside of peak time your risking, at the your wallet.

You may fear for your wallet but you are paranoid and wrong to do so.

Each London Underground station has a member of staff working the gates, keeping and eye on things. There is also active cctv monitoring throughout the network. Couple this with a dedicated transport police with powers of arrest and they come down very hard on begging and loitering never mind thefts of wallet. The Oyster has all but eradicated ticket touting.

I'd be interested to know why you've said what you have.

efb

BenShermin wrote: »

I notice Dublin Bus have started to put up advertisements on fare evasion. The new ads go along the lines of "the difference between €1.15 and €1.60 could be the standard fare of €50". If that's the case what's the difference between a fake DFSA pass and a real one:rolleyes:? It sure as **** isn't a €50 fine!!

During the boom times the minister in charge of the Department of Social and Family affairs had an easy job. Money was just thrown at at problems to sugarcoat them in a time when the white collars of society were too busy with low taxes and easy credit to give a ****e about the solitary beggar on the Ha'penny bridge of a cold but sunny celtic tiger morning. But hey, many a white collar gent threw a few €2 coins into McDonald's cups of down and outs to act like they gave a damn without having to volunteer for the Simon community. Both the Government and many of us normal workers threw money at a seemingly small homeless problem.

A sober walk through Dublin City at 1am back in the early noughties showed the beginings of a true problem for our city. So called down and outs went to the eateries of middle class drunkards. Sometimes the foreign fast food clerk handed as much as a €50 note to the down and out in exchange for the the coin content of his McDonald's cup. Couple that €50 that some earned every night along with dole payments from the Government and you had the reciepe for a serious problem if a recession was ever to happen.

Nowadays the McDonald's cups are remaining empty after the coffee is gone, the down and outs have evolved into beings that search for money. The annoyance of being asked for spare change 20 times a day has replaced the harmless beggar with the cup. A black market has fueled this more agressive beggar with the likes of €4 ciggarette packs, dodgy DFSA passes and cheap hash for the 78A bus journey from the drug rehab clinic at Cherry Orchard to the herion dealers off Thomas Street. All law abiding public transport users are encountering uncomfortable and sometimes very scary situations at the hands of Dublin's newly evolved down and outs.

I've no idea as to an overall solution to the problem. In the short term though the DFSA and the DoT need to work together to totally scrap the free travel scheme to anybody under the age of 66. Both departments could do this when the overall smart card is issued.

The minister for children needs to make it easier for social workers to put children into foster homes when their real parents are using illigal drugs. If this doesn't happen we'll just end up with thousands of children who want to grow up to be just like mammy and daddy.

The new laws being implimented on begging are a good start but let's face it, putting every junkie into jail will just be a waste of Garda time and will cost on taxes. Instead the minister for Justice needs to allow for tougher sentences for any kind of drug dealing. 25 years in jail should be the target. He has to make it look like a very risky enterprise to get involved in.

Finally, the majority of Irish people need to stand up to the minority every single day. Too many ordinary people are switching to cars because of junkies on buses, too many people still give beggars money on the street. There's no way I'm giving up my cheap 78A commute in favour of a car that will cripple me in tax and insurance, and I'd rather tell a junkie to f*** off than give him even two cent on the street.

We could get OUR city back, but I do fear that it's gone forever:(.

Its a dark day in Gotham, if only we had THE COON!

trellheim

Indeed, moving DSFA passes to a DB smartcard seems the way to go.

The easiest way to force this is to remove all non-substantiated subvention { i.e. don't let DB or Veolia claim for the grants unless they have receipts ! }

AlekSmart

Indeed, moving DSFA passes to a DB smartcard seems the way to go.

Indeed Trelheim,this was one of the very first excercises which Dublin Bus brought forward in the infancy of the Smart Card project.

The company`s reasoning was that the Social Welfare Pass holders presented a comprehensive and already collated passenger grouping which would lend itself to fast and accurate data collection from any such test.

I understand that,at the time,the Department of Social Welfare demurred as the cost of the Plastic Smart card would have amounted to 65c per person,a charge which not unreasonably,Dublin Bus felt should be borne by the holder.

The Department of SW were adamant that it would not pay the 65c and neither would it ask it`s "customers" to pay it so the smart-pass suggestion was deemed far too incredible for the (Southern)Irish population.

It also needs to be recognized that the current Smart-Card roll out has been significantly delayed by the 11th hour decision of the Department of Social Protection to participate in it.

The Department of Social Welfare/Protections prevarication on the issue had forced the Integrated Ticketing Implimentation Group to proceed on the assumption that the Social Welfare pass would remain a seperate item.

It needs to be recalled that many of the highest and mightiest of the Senior Civil Servants involved in this shambles have,in the interim, retired on quite attractive terms indeed,some even meriting bonus payments.

But Trelheim,and others,are quite correct,full withdrawal and subsequent re-application and reissue is now the only way to get the Free Travel Scheme monster back in it`s cage.

If this is not forthcoming then the Free Travel Scheme will eventually collapse under the weight of it`s own duplication and uncontrolled expansion.

Hawk Wing 2

feelingstressed wrote: »

So, so true
If you hold your hands up and give your name and address you get a fine.
Act aggressively and swear at the ticket collector and you'll be put off at the next stop, no fine.
And then you get the next tram

I'd guess most of those guards are attending court and are going home, always see loads of them aswell getting on at Hueston

_Kaiser_

The cause of all of the problems described in this thread is the wave of touchy-feely, pc-ness that spread into this country over the last 15/20 years, which in turn led to a general consenus that people can no longer take action for themselves without some sort of social/state validation.

Think about it.. there have always been scumbags, and so-called "recreational" drugs have been around a long time too, but it's only in the last 15 years or so that things have gotten significantly worse.


So why is that (maybe I should cross post this in Humanities)...


- Well first off, the parents who are "raising" this latest generation of scum have been conditioned to believe that it's inappropriate (potentially "abusive") to discipline your child anymore.

I grew up in the 80's and back in those days there was nothing wrong with a parent shouting at/grounding/occasionally slapping their misbehaving child, and also that if another parent came to the door to complain (or took action themselves) you'd be in for worse!

Now, whilst I thus did get the occasional slap (or wooden spoon if my mother was close to it), it certainly didn't scar me for life but what it DID do is teach me a healthy respect for my parents, others and others property - how many times nowadays for example do you see someone slam a door or trolley into someone's car and then just walk off?


- The rise of the "nanny state" has left the majority believing that it's now perfectly OK and acceptable for someone else to do everything for you and that you no longer have to take any personal responsibility for your decisions or actions.
Problems with the kids? That's what the schools are for, Caught speeding? Ah sure don't they have little else to be doing... etc etc

Of course the problem with this "can't someone else do it" mentality is that in the end NOTHING gets done, and NO ONE is responsible.

Don't believe me? Take a look at our economic woes.. we have a political party and banking elite that squandered the biggest boom this country will ever see, and not ONE of them has been brought to account.

What do the rest of us do? Whinge about it in the pubs and on boards like this, but take actual ACTION? Of course not.. "can't someone else do it?"


The end result of all this is socially approved anarchy where scumbags are free to harass and intimidate others simply because it might "damage" them to be told "no", and where the rest of the population are little more than meek sheep afraid to put their head up in case they might have to take some responsibility.

So of course the country will suffer.. socially at the hands of these scumbags, politically at the hand of corrupt, lazy politicians, and ultimately that's all we have left as anyone who has ANY sense, and the means to do so, leaves this cesspool to those who created it.

Unfortunately until we as a nation realise that this sort of behaviour is a result of our own actions - more accurately inaction - then nothing will change.. in fact it'll only get worse!

shamwari

Recently, I had to use the Luas to visit my mother who was a patient in St James hospital. On the very first day I used the Luas, this is what I experienced.

1. Arrived at the ticket machine in Lwr Abbey St to purchase a return ticket to ST James. As I was putting my coins into the machine, a tracksuit wearing a baseball cap came over and asked me the usual "..anee spayer chainge budd?" The request was politely declined.

2. Whilst waiting for my Luas, one arrived at the platform opposite where another tracksuit and baseball cap decamped from it. He hocked and spat all the way up the length of the platform before crossing over onto my platform, and then started begging the whole way up along it. Nice of him to use public transport in order to scrounge a few quid, and I bet he didn't bother his ass to purchase a ticket either.

3. On the Luas, things got a whole lot worse. I got a seat, and in the four seats on the opposite side sat a tracksuited couple french kissing (her dentalware resembled a rusty broken fence), and one of the two seat opposite sat a large hold all belonging to the male tracksuit. The window seat was free. An old lady soon walked up the carriage and saw the vacant seat. She made eye contact directly with these two, looked at the bag and then at the vacant seat, and then looked back at the two. Neither had the decency to move the bag as the lady was intimating in order to her sit down. The old lady took the initiative and moved the bag herself, at which point the mail track suit called her something foul and utterly unrepeatable. He then threatened her with what he would do to her if she touched the bag again. The lady never opened her mouth and remained dignified throughout, only to get off at the next stop. A few lads and I made eye contact with each other and I could see that all of us wanted to give this scroat a piece of our minds. I got off at James and left this disgraceful pair to themselves.

4. Later on, I left James to get the Luas back to Connolly. On the platform opposite sat several youngsters around 20 years old. One of these was utterly motionless and statue like, clutching a can of red bull between her knees. A male tracksuit came over with a goodie bag from the chipper, and pleaded with her that she needed to eat something. He then shoved a piece of fish into her face, but her mouth was closed, and all he succeeded in doing was smearing the fish all over her face. Just then their Luas came in, and both he a few others present lifted the comatose girl onto the Luas and it left.

5. My Luas came in and I boarded it near the front behind the driver. I noticed that there was a large crowd near the back and nobody up front, with plenty of seats available. I was about to sit down when I realised why it was so empty: there clearly had been a fight of some sort, and there was broken glass and plenty of blood about. I got up and joined everyone else at the back, who were strangely quiet :rolleyes: Thankfully, I got to Connolly unscathed but bloody worried.

I am in the city centre fairly regularly, and I have noticed a steady and indeed massive decline in the area over the last 18 months or so. It is nothing to do with the Luas, but there is a growing number of people like those I have mentioned above, who walk around most of the day either drunk or under narcotic influences (or both). They act with impunity and nobody seems to care, or want to do anything about it. The main thoroughfare of Dublin has practically been taken over by them. As is the boardwalk, and to a lesser extent, Customs House quay. I mean, if this were going on in a leafy suburb, or Grafton St, or the IFSC, would the same level of ambivalence or tolerance be shown?

The fact that this antisocial malevolence is manifesting itself on the Luas is disgraceful. But the biggest disgrace is that many parts of the city is similarly affected, and nobody who could / should be doing something about it is actually doing that.

Oh, and that was the last time I used the Luas. I made do with the 123 bus instead.

Judgement Day

shamwari - sounds like you had a very unpleasant experience and I trust you wrote to the RPA and Veoila about it as well as posting here? Perhaps a copy letter/email to Noel Dempsey too?

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