The Catholic / Protestant Debate Megathread

PDN

New mega thread time!

We're sick of the board being taken over by numerous threads where the same rather tired arguments and entrenched positions keep getting rehearsed over and over again.

So, if Protestants and Roman Catholics want to debate the merits of their respective positions this is the place to do it. Any new threads started for this purpose will be locked.

It is OK, in other threads, to say "as a non-Catholic I believe this" or "as a Catholic I don't believe this". That's fine, and people can note your position. But once it moves into arguing against Protestantism or against Catholicism then this is the thread to bring it to.

Fanny Cradock

Cheers, PDN. I was dreading going through the posts and deciding which to put where. Mega-merge from scratch is the best idea.

PDN

And don't forget, guys and girls, the Forum Charter still applies!

lmaopml

PDN, I know there were a few threads running at the same time and some had a similar theme..

Antiskeptic and I were really only chatting on one of the threads and understanding eachothers relative positions, not really banging on about who has 'D Bestest' opinion, just basic philosophies etc. - I thought it was interesting.....:)...didn't think the posters were 'sick' of us..lol...

Anyway, I understand the merge, but I am really hoping that this is not where all interesting debates that Catholics or Protestants want to 'chat' with eachother in light of the charter are going to end up being put...? In with a lot of 'noise' iykwim...

Vinny-Chase

I have to say one thing I am really surprised at on this forum is there is a lot of anti-Protestant remarks. And I'm Catholic!

Fanny Cradock

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

I have to say one thing I am really surprised at on this forum is there is a lot of anti-Protestant remarks. And I'm Catholic!

It's really only arisen over the last couple of weeks. Still, it sad to see ecumenicism go down the tubes.

vodafoneproblem

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

I have to say one thing I am really surprised at on this forum is there is a lot of anti-Protestant remarks. And I'm Catholic!

To put some perspective on it, there have been occasional anti-Catholic remarks going on here ever since I started reading, often without reply, iirc. One interesting thing I've found about this forum is that there is quite a high percentage of Protestants posting here as compared to their numbers in the general population. All of the mods and some of the loudest and most opinionated posters are Protestant. That is not in any way meant as a swipe at anyone. It's just an observation. I find it interesting sometimes to read the Protestant take on various subjects, tbh. But I also like it when some really knowledgeable Catholics are able to clear up misconceptions that are sometimes bandied about. I just think people started debating with each other a bit more recently than they have in the recent past. We must be running out of atheists to join forces against.

JimiTime

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

To put some perspective on it, there have been occasional anti-Catholic remarks going on here ever since I started reading,

There is a difference between pointing out issues you have with Catholic doctrine, and telling someone that they are in the grip of Satan. Its not a Catholic/protestant thing, its a rude or lacking in decorum thing versus folk wishing for discussion.

All of the mods .... are Protestant.

PDN is Pentecostal and Fanny Craddock is Non-denominational.

PDN

JimiTime wrote: »

There is a difference between pointing out issues you have with Catholic doctrine, and telling someone that they are in the grip of Satan. Its not a Catholic/protestant thing, its a rude or lacking in decorum thing versus folk wishing for discussion.

PDN is Pentecostal and Fanny Craddock is Non-denominational.

And don't forget Asiaprod who, despite his name, is a Buddhist!

I noticed in another thread that a poster was labelled 'anti-Catholic' because they questioned Church policies - that is, to be honest, pretty paranoid.

There's a world of difference, as Jimi has noted, between pointing out areas where we may disagree and aggressively attacking everyone who doesn't agree with you.

lmaopml

Ahh sure I think it works both ways...which is being 'fair', Jimi.

....all the 'medal' and 'icon' and 'Mary' comments down go unmissed either in fairness!

The only way to nullify it is to keep talking though the noise to eachother...

Antiskeptic had a few threads up that were really generating some genuine interest, it was 'he' who was curious and confused about Catholicism. The posters themselves who 'wanted' to chat, chatted....and some of the posters themselves played mod and brought the chat back around, they're bound to get a bit heated the odd time, but how are we meant to talk if we get hormental at every hands turn, or see a perceived 'slur' at every hands turn...

I dunno...

..and how are the Catholics on this board meant to feel when the threat of a multi dump thread looms over 'them' as the only branch (singularly) of Christianity on the board with it? Not even Atheists got that pleasure...

I'm sorry but it has to be said....

hinault

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

To put some perspective on it, there have been occasional anti-Catholic remarks going on here ever since I started reading, often without reply, iirc. One interesting thing I've found about this forum is that there is quite a high percentage of Protestants posting here as compared to their numbers in the general population. All of the mods and some of the loudest and most opinionated posters are Protestant. That is not in any way meant as a swipe at anyone. It's just an observation. I find it interesting sometimes to read the Protestant take on various subjects, tbh. But I also like it when some really knowledgeable Catholics are able to clear up misconceptions that are sometimes bandied about. I just think people started debating with each other a bit more recently than they have in the recent past. We must be running out of atheists to join forces against.

They're Protestant?

I didn't know this.

Why are there no Roman Catholic moderators on this category?

hinault

Could we have a couple of Roman Catholic dedicated threads?

As a RC, I am not particularly interested in discussing Roman Catholic/Protestant debates.
They're futile in my view and personally I have no interest in discussing
Protestant tenets of their respective denominations.


I would though be interested in discussing issues of faith/practice with my fellow RC members.

PDN

hinault wrote: »

Could we have a couple of Roman Catholic dedicated threads?

As a RC, I am not particularly interested in discussing Roman Catholic/Protestant debates.
They're futile in my view and personally I have no interest in discussing
Protestant tenets of their respective denominations.


I would though be interested in discussing issues of faith/practice with my fellow RC members.

And such threads are absolutely fine. In fact such threads should be enhanced, because now they shouldn't descend into the same old spats between Protestants and Catholics.

As for having RC moderators - the Admins appoint mods based on their ability to moderate the forum. There's no quota system in operation.

Fanny Cradock

hinault wrote: »

They're Protestant?

I didn't know this.

Why are there no Roman Catholic moderators on this category?

Let's be clear, neither PDN or myself are Protestant. Furthermore, I don't believe that our denominational tendency's were a factor in the decision to offer us the positions.

PDN

lmaopml wrote: »

..and how are the Catholics on this board meant to feel when the threat of a multi dump thread looms over 'them' as the only branch (singularly) of Christianity on the board with it? Not even Atheists got that pleasure...

I'm sorry but it has to be said....

I'm baffled as to how you reach such a conclusion.

The multi dump thread, as you call it, is a Protestant/Catholic megathread - so it treats both sides equally.

Also, I look at the forum and see several current threads on Catholic issues (women priests, vatican clampdown on liberal opinion, a pontifical high mass, clerical child abuse, capital punishment in the Vatican, and a thread pimping an RC-oriented website). Hardly being marginalised now, are you?

There used to be a lot more Catholic threads but one of the most enthusiastic posters got himself sitebanned for threatening legal action over something that was said in another forum.

JimiTime

lmaopml wrote: »

Ahh sure I think it works both ways...which is being 'fair', Jimi.

Of course.

....all the 'medal' and 'icon' and 'Mary' comments down go unmissed either in fairness!

Again, in many occasions its not whats being said, but how its being said. I would see it as valid to question Marian devotion, trinketry etc. However, there is a line that could be crossed if I tell you you are in the grip of Satan etc.

..and how are the Catholics on this board meant to feel when the threat of a multi dump thread looms over 'them' as the only branch (singularly) of Christianity on the board with it? Not even Atheists got that pleasure...

I'm sorry but it has to be said....

I don't think thats the purpose TBH, though I can see how this thread may not work as its so generic. I think it was established so that any mention of 'one true church, this interpretation is the only valid one' could be moved here and stop irritating discussion.

vodafoneproblem

hinault wrote: »

They're Protestant?

I didn't know this.

Why are there no Roman Catholic moderators on this category?

I stand corrected. As PDN said, apparently Asiaprod is buddhist. (Who'da thunk it! ) Anyway, I would like to see a Catholic mod, tbh. Someone like lmaopml or The Smurf (as a certain late night visitor nick-named him, lol) would be good choices, imo, if it ever comes up. And to Jimi and Fanny: a lot of people consider any non-Catholic Christian as Protestant. No offence meant.

PDN

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Let's be clear, neither PDN or myself are Protestant. Furthermore, I don't believe that our denominational tendency's were a factor in the decision to offer us the positions.

I am a non-Catholic, but I reject the label of Protestant. I'm not protesting against anything - just doing my best to love and serve God as best as I can and in accordance with my understanding of Scripture.

JimiTime

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

Anyway, I would like to see a Catholic mod, tbh. Someone like lmaopml or The Smurf (as a certain late night visitor nick-named him, lol) would be good choices, imo, if it ever comes up.

Why? You think the mods are doing a bad job? You reckon they're given Catholics a raw deal?

And to Jimi and Fanny: a lot of people consider any non-Catholic Christian as Protestant. No offence meant.

No offence taken, its not I or Fanny etc who are ignorant of what Protestantism is. I remember in school being called a pagan:) Some folk have just never gained knowledge outside of their own particular religious bubble.

Vinny-Chase

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

I stand corrected. As PDN said, apparently Asiaprod is buddhist. (Who'da thunk it! ) Anyway, I would like to see a Catholic mod, tbh. Someone like lmaopml or The Smurf (as a certain late night visitor nick-named him, lol) would be good choices, imo, if it ever comes up. And to Jimi and Fanny: a lot of people consider any non-Catholic Christian as Protestant. No offence meant.

What difference does the "label" on the mod have to do with anything. I have to say, in the my short experience on the forum I don't think the mods seem biased. I'm especially not in favour of a mod being a mod just because they're Catholic. Best man/ woman for the job.

Fanny Cradock

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

I stand corrected. As PDN said, apparently Asiaprod is buddhist. (Who'da thunk it! )

And an atheist.

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

And to Jimi and Fanny: a lot of people consider any non-Catholic Christian as Protestant. No offence meant.

They are are allowed to hold such an obtuse opinion. However, quite aside from the opinions of self-avowed Protestants (and where does Anglicanism fit into the equation?), I wonder what members of the Eastern Orthodox Church and Oriental Orthodox Church would think of such an opinion.

vodafoneproblem

^I think there are occasions when it would be helpful having a Catholic viewpoint on issues. I'm not interested in having a go at PDN or Fanny. Also, my use of the term Protestant is a valid one. There are different definitions of Protestant. If people reject the definition as applying to them, then I'm happy not to use it in reference to them.

Fanny Cradock

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

What difference does the "label" on the mod have to do with anything. I have to say, in the my short experience on the forum I don't think the mods seem biased. I'm especially not in favour of a mod being a mod just because they're Catholic. Best man/ woman for the job.

Thank you.

The idea that we have a mod to represent Catholicism just doesn't run. It reminds me of a heated thread on the feedback forum that requested that the soccer forum should have a mod who is a Liverpool supporter. Where does it stop? 20 mods later? Mods enforce the charter and generally help things to run smoothly. That is it.

lmaopml

PDN wrote: »

I'm baffled as to how you reach such a conclusion.

The multi dump thread, as you call it, is a Protestant/Catholic megathread - so it treats both sides equally.

Also, I look at the forum and see several current threads on Catholic issues (women priests, vatican clampdown on liberal opinion, a pontifical high mass, clerical child abuse, capital punishment in the Vatican, and a thread pimping an RC-oriented website). Hardly being marginalised now, are you?

There used to be a lot more Catholic threads but one of the most enthusiastic posters got himself sitebanned for threatening legal action over something that was said in another forum.

PDN, there are very few Catholics who even post here....well from what I've noticed, and often times I've seen stinging comments on 'both' sides, and yes - we've been referred to as 'pagans' you name it..lol....and it's just let slip because we don't respond and don't report like we're in school...

You yourself said the 'regulars' are mostly Protestant. Catholicism 'themed' threads are, in very many cases not started by the handful of Catholics who post around here...but we try to reply etc. They're going to get a bit heated...depending on the topic..

Anyways, you know the history of the forum, I don't, and obviously feel that a 'mega thread' is required....and I'll go along with that, I'm just hoping that it will be fair...

Fanny Cradock

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

^I think there are occasions when it would be helpful having a Catholic viewpoint on issues.

But we do have that! In fact we a number of threads Catholicism on the main page.

philologos

This arrangement is good I think, a lot of the other threads were being ruined by getting into discussions about people not being a part of the "real church" amongst other things. At least here we can have a principled discussion about our disagreements here, and focus on what issues we have in common elsewhere.

Most of the discussion had been of the latter form, until recently, as Fanny Craddock has already pointed out. Although some of the discussion was stimulating, I'd really like to see this forum return to normality. That is, productive discussion about our common faith in Christ.

Fanny Cradock

Jakkass wrote: »

I'd really like to see this forum return to normality. That is, productive discussion about our common faith in Christ.

Here here!

lmaopml

Jackass, I understand the sentiment, I just think it will probably put the couple of Catholics who post here, and who have responded to the coercion [ which manifests itself on 'both' sides ] off....and then it would be Christianity cept for Catholics..

..the peace will presume, because everybody will agree with eachother that the Catholic Church isn't, in fact, the one true church....*sighs* and all the Mary statues should be blasted with a good lightening bolt....

vodafoneproblem

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

But we do have that! In fact we a number of threads Catholicism on the main page.

Oh, I meant in the mod-lounge sense, Fanny. (That jewel-bedecked place with 50" flat-screen tv's and as much tea and triangle sandwiches as you can handle... ) I just think there's a Catholic voice/perspective needed there sometimes.

philologos

lmaopml wrote: »

..the peace will presume, because everybody will agree with eachother that the Catholic Church isn't, in fact, the one true church....*sighs* and all the Mary statues should be blasted with a good lightening bolt....

I'm quite happy to deal with the role of Mary, and the role of the RCC within the Christian community, but it gets a bit inadequate having this being repeated in other threads numerous times over the last week. We get it, you think that the RCC is the one true church, and if we disobey it that it is in some way wrong.

Sometimes Christian issues go far beyond the RCC and that's to be expected. There is nothing wrong with non-denominational discussion.

hinault

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

Oh, I meant in the mod-lounge sense, Fanny. (That jewel-bedecked place with 50" flat-screen tv's and as much tea and triangle sandwiches as you can handle... ) I just think there's a Catholic voice/perspective needed there sometimes.

I agree.
An RC perpsective would be welcome.

We can but ask!:)

Fanny Cradock

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

Oh, I meant in the mod-lounge sense, Fanny. (That jewel-bedecked place with 50" flat-screen tv's and as much tea and triangle sandwiches as you can handle... ) I just think there's a Catholic voice/perspective needed there sometimes.

Then I think you misunderstand the role of mod. I don't push a non-denominational agenda in my role as mod. Likewise, PDN doesn't push a Pentecostal agenda. It is worth repeating: Mods are here to make sure the charter is kept and to oversee the smooth running of day-to-day business. That is all.

JimiTime

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

^I think there are occasions when it would be helpful having a Catholic viewpoint on issues.

What on earth has that got to do with Mods A catholic poster is always free to give their viewpoint. Put 'Catholic Only' in the subject, and I'm sure they'll give their viewpoint even quicker.

Have you actually thought this through and questioned HOW having a catholic Mod will mean more catholic discussion? Its the same posters, giving the same posts etc.

Also, my use of the term Protestant is a valid one.

Indeed it is from a dictionary POV, but it is unfortunately a pretty meaningless term when you consider that it simply a christian who's 'not a catholic'. You cannot say 'what does a protestant believe'? So its useless.

hinault

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Then I think you misunderstand the role of mod. I don't push a non-denominational agenda in my role as mod. Likewise, PDN doesn't push a Pentecostal agenda. It is worth repeating: Mods are here to make sure the charter is kept and to oversee the smooth running of day-to-day business. That is all.

I understand, Craddock.

I personally do not have a problem with any of the mods and their point of view/beliefs as regards the forum.

I am simply making the point that I find it surprising that there isn't even one moderator, who is RC.

JimiTime

hinault wrote: »

.

I am simply making the point that I find it surprising that there isn't even one moderator, who is RC.

Why is it surprising? Most of the posters who frequent this forum are not Catholics, so by probability alone its not surprising that there are no RC mods. Up until fairly recently, Kelly1 was the only regular catholic poster.

hinault

JimiTime wrote: »

Why is it surprising? Most of the posters who frequent this forum are not Catholics, so by probability alone its not surprising that there are no RC mods. Up until fairly recently, Kelly1 was the only regular catholic poster.

Several posters currently are RC's and they contribute here.

Can't speak about the past demographics of this section of the Forum.



I would hope that it is not a deliberate policy not to select moderators who are RC.

lmaopml

JimiTime wrote: »

Why is it surprising? Most of the posters who frequent this forum are not Catholics, so by probability alone its not surprising that there are no RC mods. Up until fairly recently, Kelly1 was the only regular catholic poster.

Exactly the point JimiTime! Just 'one'....I wonder why?
..and see what happens when a few more Catholics post! We get told the 'regulars' are tired of us..pml...

It's not like that's all the new Catholic posters said either; they put forward valid points when they were asked questions, not just 'We are the one true Church blahdeblah'......and made a challenge as to the dynamic of the board.......

...and we got a 'mega thread' just for us...

Fanny Cradock

hinault wrote: »

I would hope that it is not a deliberate policy not to select moderators who are RC.

No, it's not.

JimiTime

hinault wrote: »

I would hope that it is not a deliberate policy not to select moderators who are RC.

:rolleyes:

owenc

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

I have to say one thing I am really surprised at on this forum is there is a lot of anti-Protestant remarks. And I'm Catholic!

Yea and i can't see why they are like that, i thought that no one cared about religion down south like they do up here but i guess thats definitely wrong!

Fanny Cradock

owenc wrote: »

Yea and i can't see why they are like that, i thought that no one cared about religion down south like they do up here but i guess thats definitely wrong!

Well, I would say that it generally isn't as polarising round these parts. Internet forums tend to be an exception.

owenc

hinault wrote: »

They're Protestant?

I didn't know this.

Why are there no Roman Catholic moderators on this category?

Who cares what bloody religion they are, IT DOSN"T MATTER, ITS NOT GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE!!!:rolleyes:

PDN

lmaopml wrote: »

Exactly the point JimiTime! Just 'one'....I wonder why?
..and see what happens when a few more Catholics post! We get told the 'regulars' are tired of us..pml....

You got told no such thing. The mods are tired of arguments going on in multiple threads as to whether Protestantism or Catholicism is right. So we are equally as tired of the Protestants engaging in sush threads as we are of the Catholics.

..and we got a 'mega thread' just for us..

No you didn't. That is totally untrue.

We got a megathread for Protestant/Catholic arguments - so by definition that makes it 50% Protestant and 50% Catholic. :rolleyes:

So put your persecution complex away please.

vodafoneproblem

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Then I think you misunderstand the role of mod. I don't push a non-denominational agenda in my role as mod. Likewise, PDN doesn't push a Pentecostal agenda. It is worth repeating: Mods are here to make sure the charter is kept and to oversee the smooth running of day-to-day business. That is all.

I know you and PDN do your best to keep the peace here, and sometimes it's not easy, especially with the odd trouble-maker dropping by. However, sometimes Catholics have been told to hush up a bit here just for giving their view on things and so I think a Catholic perspective from a mod would help everybody feel able to express their views without fear.

JimiTime

lmaopml wrote: »

Exactly the point JimiTime! Just 'one'....I wonder why?

Well why do YOU think? Is it more persecution complex?

..and see what happens when a few more Catholics post! We get told the 'regulars' are tired of us..pml...

Where were you told that the regulars were 'Tired of you'?

It's not like that's all the new Catholic posters said either; they put forward valid points when they were asked questions, not just 'We are the one true Church blahdeblah'......and made a challenge as to the dynamic of the board.......

What?? This is a discussion forum, the dynamic of which changes regularly. I have had heated debate with PDN, FC etc. What we have had recently, and it is being carried on here is the notion that there is some kind of conspiracy against RC's. Funnily enough, it seems that most RC's that come here say that at some point, yet its RC's who are the only people trying to force their particular brand on others as the 'One True Church'. Lets call a spade a spade, if all this One true church stuff stopped, there would be no mega thread. i mean whats the point in contantly harping on about such things when you know that your audience does not agree with you? Its like using the bible to show an atheist they're wrong about morals. You are appealing to something that holds no sway. Now, here, there is a place for Catholics to show how they are the true church, and for others to show that they aren't. It means the topic wont creep into other threads again.

...and we got a 'mega thread' just for us...

No, EVERYONE got a megathread for matters pertaining to the discussion of the differences between Catholics and Protestants. Why do you only see that as a Catholic thing? Is that perhaps a bit of paranoia or maybe a persecution complex?

lmaopml

PDN, I don't see why a couple of warnings couldn't be issued. Actually I witnessed one, and the poster apologised....and we all moved on like grown ups.

Then the debates got closed and we all got lumped in together in order to speak about a number of different topics...! both Protestants who were curious of our position and wanted clarity, and Catholic posters who were replying, yes it got 'lively' but certainly not out of hand - and now we must use the 'one' thread...

...and the Cherry on the top is the clincher that the regs are sick of hearing that from a Catholic position we believe we are the one true church..

Jeewiz just ignore it, or report it - what's with the baby tactics...

JimiTime

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

I know you and PDN do your best to keep the peace here, and sometimes it's not easy, especially with the odd trouble-maker dropping by. However, sometimes Catholics have been told to hush up a bit here just for giving their view on things and so I think a Catholic perspective from a mod would help everybody feel able to express their views without fear.

TBH, these insinuations have gone far enough IMO. Provide instances where Catholics have been singled out for simply expressing their opinion or take your insinuations back. That is the only honourable thing to do IMO.

PDN

lmaopml wrote: »

PDN, I don't see why a couple of warnings couldn't be issued. Actually I witnessed one, and the poster apologised....and we all moved on like grown ups.

Warnings are issued when people breach, or come close to breaching the Charter. The new megathread makes no difference to that, as normal Charter and forum rules apply.

But what is frustrating is when you have the same old arguments multiplying across four threads at once - including hijacking what could otherwise be useful discussions. That's why we have a creationism megathread, a clerical child abuse megathread, and now a Protestant/Catholic megathread.

...and the Cherry on the top is the clincher that the regs are sick of hearing that from a Catholic position we believe we are the one true church.

I've only seen one person (Jimitime) say that they are sick of that - and, while he is entitled to his opinion, it has no bearing on any moderating decisions.

Jeewiz just ignore it, or report it - what's with the baby tactics...

The only baby tactics I'm seeing is a bit of whining about a moderating decision.

JimiTime

lmaopml wrote: »

PDN, I don't see why a couple of warnings couldn't be issued. Actually I witnessed one, and the poster apologised....and we all moved on like grown ups.

Then the debates got closed and we all got lumped in together in order to speak about a number of different topics...! both Protestants who were curious of our position and wanted clarity, and Catholic posters who were replying, yes it got 'lively' but certainly not out of hand - and now we must use the 'one' thread...

...and the Cherry on the top is the clincher that the regs are sick of hearing that from a Catholic position we believe we are the one true church..

Jeewiz just ignore it, or report it - what's with the baby tactics...

Actually, apart from the little sly digs about baby tactics, I think you have a point. I think this megathread is much too generic. I think the issue here is a simple one, Its the 'One true church' assertion. IMO, thats the thread that should be created. All this 'We want a catholic mod etc is just nonsense stuff.

What think all of yee?

vodafoneproblem

Jimi, you're getting very personal and aggressive in your comments to me on this thread. I don't want to point out the instances you're demanding of me because I'd rather keep the discussion general.

Edit: I feel you're trying to push me to have a go at, and get into conflict with, the mods, and I'm not biting. As for your personal and aggressive comments to me, the evidence is there for everyone to see on this thread.

JimiTime

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

Jimi, you're getting very personal and aggressive in your comments to me on this thread. I don't want to point out the instances you're demanding of me because I'd rather keep the discussion general.

More baseless rubbish. You have made accusations against the mods of this forum without providing backup, Now you have accused me of being personal and aggressive without foundation. Your idea of keeping things general seems to just let you make pronouncements about people, and when they ask you to provide backup you accuse them of being personal. So do the honourable thing, and provide backup for your accusations or take them back. It is entirely reasonable for me to ask this.

You either have something to back you up, or you don't. What would you say if I accused you of being aggressive towards protestants? Would you not expect some form of evidence to back up such an accusation?