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The Catholic / Protestant Debate Megathread

PDN

New mega thread time!

We're sick of the board being taken over by numerous threads where the same rather tired arguments and entrenched positions keep getting rehearsed over and over again.

So, if Protestants and Roman Catholics want to debate the merits of their respective positions this is the place to do it. Any new threads started for this purpose will be locked.

It is OK, in other threads, to say "as a non-Catholic I believe this" or "as a Catholic I don't believe this". That's fine, and people can note your position. But once it moves into arguing against Protestantism or against Catholicism then this is the thread to bring it to.

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Fanny Cradock

Cheers, PDN. I was dreading going through the posts and deciding which to put where. Mega-merge from scratch is the best idea.

PDN

And don't forget, guys and girls, the Forum Charter still applies!

lmaopml

PDN, I know there were a few threads running at the same time and some had a similar theme..

Antiskeptic and I were really only chatting on one of the threads and understanding eachothers relative positions, not really banging on about who has 'D Bestest' opinion, just basic philosophies etc. - I thought it was interesting.....:)...didn't think the posters were 'sick' of us..lol...

Anyway, I understand the merge, but I am really hoping that this is not where all interesting debates that Catholics or Protestants want to 'chat' with eachother in light of the charter are going to end up being put...? In with a lot of 'noise' iykwim...

Vinny-Chase

I have to say one thing I am really surprised at on this forum is there is a lot of anti-Protestant remarks. And I'm Catholic!

Fanny Cradock

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

I have to say one thing I am really surprised at on this forum is there is a lot of anti-Protestant remarks. And I'm Catholic!

It's really only arisen over the last couple of weeks. Still, it sad to see ecumenicism go down the tubes.

vodafoneproblem

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

I have to say one thing I am really surprised at on this forum is there is a lot of anti-Protestant remarks. And I'm Catholic!

To put some perspective on it, there have been occasional anti-Catholic remarks going on here ever since I started reading, often without reply, iirc. One interesting thing I've found about this forum is that there is quite a high percentage of Protestants posting here as compared to their numbers in the general population. All of the mods and some of the loudest and most opinionated posters are Protestant. That is not in any way meant as a swipe at anyone. It's just an observation. I find it interesting sometimes to read the Protestant take on various subjects, tbh. But I also like it when some really knowledgeable Catholics are able to clear up misconceptions that are sometimes bandied about. I just think people started debating with each other a bit more recently than they have in the recent past. We must be running out of atheists to join forces against.

JimiTime

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

To put some perspective on it, there have been occasional anti-Catholic remarks going on here ever since I started reading,

There is a difference between pointing out issues you have with Catholic doctrine, and telling someone that they are in the grip of Satan. Its not a Catholic/protestant thing, its a rude or lacking in decorum thing versus folk wishing for discussion.

All of the mods .... are Protestant.

PDN is Pentecostal and Fanny Craddock is Non-denominational.

PDN

JimiTime wrote: »

There is a difference between pointing out issues you have with Catholic doctrine, and telling someone that they are in the grip of Satan. Its not a Catholic/protestant thing, its a rude or lacking in decorum thing versus folk wishing for discussion.

PDN is Pentecostal and Fanny Craddock is Non-denominational.

And don't forget Asiaprod who, despite his name, is a Buddhist!

I noticed in another thread that a poster was labelled 'anti-Catholic' because they questioned Church policies - that is, to be honest, pretty paranoid.

There's a world of difference, as Jimi has noted, between pointing out areas where we may disagree and aggressively attacking everyone who doesn't agree with you.

lmaopml

Ahh sure I think it works both ways...which is being 'fair', Jimi.

....all the 'medal' and 'icon' and 'Mary' comments down go unmissed either in fairness!

The only way to nullify it is to keep talking though the noise to eachother...

Antiskeptic had a few threads up that were really generating some genuine interest, it was 'he' who was curious and confused about Catholicism. The posters themselves who 'wanted' to chat, chatted....and some of the posters themselves played mod and brought the chat back around, they're bound to get a bit heated the odd time, but how are we meant to talk if we get hormental at every hands turn, or see a perceived 'slur' at every hands turn...

I dunno...

..and how are the Catholics on this board meant to feel when the threat of a multi dump thread looms over 'them' as the only branch (singularly) of Christianity on the board with it? Not even Atheists got that pleasure...

I'm sorry but it has to be said....

hinault

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

To put some perspective on it, there have been occasional anti-Catholic remarks going on here ever since I started reading, often without reply, iirc. One interesting thing I've found about this forum is that there is quite a high percentage of Protestants posting here as compared to their numbers in the general population. All of the mods and some of the loudest and most opinionated posters are Protestant. That is not in any way meant as a swipe at anyone. It's just an observation. I find it interesting sometimes to read the Protestant take on various subjects, tbh. But I also like it when some really knowledgeable Catholics are able to clear up misconceptions that are sometimes bandied about. I just think people started debating with each other a bit more recently than they have in the recent past. We must be running out of atheists to join forces against.

They're Protestant?

I didn't know this.

Why are there no Roman Catholic moderators on this category?

hinault

Could we have a couple of Roman Catholic dedicated threads?

As a RC, I am not particularly interested in discussing Roman Catholic/Protestant debates.
They're futile in my view and personally I have no interest in discussing
Protestant tenets of their respective denominations.

I would though be interested in discussing issues of faith/practice with my fellow RC members.

PDN

hinault wrote: »

Could we have a couple of Roman Catholic dedicated threads?

As a RC, I am not particularly interested in discussing Roman Catholic/Protestant debates.
They're futile in my view and personally I have no interest in discussing
Protestant tenets of their respective denominations.

I would though be interested in discussing issues of faith/practice with my fellow RC members.

And such threads are absolutely fine. In fact such threads should be enhanced, because now they shouldn't descend into the same old spats between Protestants and Catholics.

As for having RC moderators - the Admins appoint mods based on their ability to moderate the forum. There's no quota system in operation.

Fanny Cradock

hinault wrote: »

They're Protestant?

I didn't know this.

Why are there no Roman Catholic moderators on this category?

Let's be clear, neither PDN or myself are Protestant. Furthermore, I don't believe that our denominational tendency's were a factor in the decision to offer us the positions.

PDN

lmaopml wrote: »

..and how are the Catholics on this board meant to feel when the threat of a multi dump thread looms over 'them' as the only branch (singularly) of Christianity on the board with it? Not even Atheists got that pleasure...

I'm sorry but it has to be said....

I'm baffled as to how you reach such a conclusion.

The multi dump thread, as you call it, is a Protestant/Catholic megathread - so it treats both sides equally.

Also, I look at the forum and see several current threads on Catholic issues (women priests, vatican clampdown on liberal opinion, a pontifical high mass, clerical child abuse, capital punishment in the Vatican, and a thread pimping an RC-oriented website). Hardly being marginalised now, are you?

There used to be a lot more Catholic threads but one of the most enthusiastic posters got himself sitebanned for threatening legal action over something that was said in another forum.

JimiTime

lmaopml wrote: »

Ahh sure I think it works both ways...which is being 'fair', Jimi.

Of course.

....all the 'medal' and 'icon' and 'Mary' comments down go unmissed either in fairness!

Again, in many occasions its not whats being said, but how its being said. I would see it as valid to question Marian devotion, trinketry etc. However, there is a line that could be crossed if I tell you you are in the grip of Satan etc.

..and how are the Catholics on this board meant to feel when the threat of a multi dump thread looms over 'them' as the only branch (singularly) of Christianity on the board with it? Not even Atheists got that pleasure...

I'm sorry but it has to be said....

I don't think thats the purpose TBH, though I can see how this thread may not work as its so generic. I think it was established so that any mention of 'one true church, this interpretation is the only valid one' could be moved here and stop irritating discussion.

vodafoneproblem

hinault wrote: »

They're Protestant?

I didn't know this.

Why are there no Roman Catholic moderators on this category?

I stand corrected. As PDN said, apparently Asiaprod is buddhist. (Who'da thunk it! ) Anyway, I would like to see a Catholic mod, tbh. Someone like lmaopml or The Smurf (as a certain late night visitor nick-named him, lol) would be good choices, imo, if it ever comes up. And to Jimi and Fanny: a lot of people consider any non-Catholic Christian as Protestant. No offence meant.

PDN

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Let's be clear, neither PDN or myself are Protestant. Furthermore, I don't believe that our denominational tendency's were a factor in the decision to offer us the positions.

I am a non-Catholic, but I reject the label of Protestant. I'm not protesting against anything - just doing my best to love and serve God as best as I can and in accordance with my understanding of Scripture.

JimiTime

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

Anyway, I would like to see a Catholic mod, tbh. Someone like lmaopml or The Smurf (as a certain late night visitor nick-named him, lol) would be good choices, imo, if it ever comes up.

Why? You think the mods are doing a bad job? You reckon they're given Catholics a raw deal?

And to Jimi and Fanny: a lot of people consider any non-Catholic Christian as Protestant. No offence meant.

No offence taken, its not I or Fanny etc who are ignorant of what Protestantism is. I remember in school being called a pagan:) Some folk have just never gained knowledge outside of their own particular religious bubble.

Vinny-Chase

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

I stand corrected. As PDN said, apparently Asiaprod is buddhist. (Who'da thunk it! ) Anyway, I would like to see a Catholic mod, tbh. Someone like lmaopml or The Smurf (as a certain late night visitor nick-named him, lol) would be good choices, imo, if it ever comes up. And to Jimi and Fanny: a lot of people consider any non-Catholic Christian as Protestant. No offence meant.

What difference does the "label" on the mod have to do with anything. I have to say, in the my short experience on the forum I don't think the mods seem biased. I'm especially not in favour of a mod being a mod just because they're Catholic. Best man/ woman for the job.

Fanny Cradock

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

I stand corrected. As PDN said, apparently Asiaprod is buddhist. (Who'da thunk it! )

And an atheist.

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

And to Jimi and Fanny: a lot of people consider any non-Catholic Christian as Protestant. No offence meant.

They are are allowed to hold such an obtuse opinion. However, quite aside from the opinions of self-avowed Protestants (and where does Anglicanism fit into the equation?), I wonder what members of the Eastern Orthodox Church and Oriental Orthodox Church would think of such an opinion.

vodafoneproblem

^I think there are occasions when it would be helpful having a Catholic viewpoint on issues. I'm not interested in having a go at PDN or Fanny. Also, my use of the term Protestant is a valid one. There are different definitions of Protestant. If people reject the definition as applying to them, then I'm happy not to use it in reference to them.

Fanny Cradock

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

What difference does the "label" on the mod have to do with anything. I have to say, in the my short experience on the forum I don't think the mods seem biased. I'm especially not in favour of a mod being a mod just because they're Catholic. Best man/ woman for the job.

Thank you.

The idea that we have a mod to represent Catholicism just doesn't run. It reminds me of a heated thread on the feedback forum that requested that the soccer forum should have a mod who is a Liverpool supporter. Where does it stop? 20 mods later? Mods enforce the charter and generally help things to run smoothly. That is it.

lmaopml

PDN wrote: »

I'm baffled as to how you reach such a conclusion.

The multi dump thread, as you call it, is a Protestant/Catholic megathread - so it treats both sides equally.

Also, I look at the forum and see several current threads on Catholic issues (women priests, vatican clampdown on liberal opinion, a pontifical high mass, clerical child abuse, capital punishment in the Vatican, and a thread pimping an RC-oriented website). Hardly being marginalised now, are you?

There used to be a lot more Catholic threads but one of the most enthusiastic posters got himself sitebanned for threatening legal action over something that was said in another forum.

PDN, there are very few Catholics who even post here....well from what I've noticed, and often times I've seen stinging comments on 'both' sides, and yes - we've been referred to as 'pagans' you name it..lol....and it's just let slip because we don't respond and don't report like we're in school...

You yourself said the 'regulars' are mostly Protestant. Catholicism 'themed' threads are, in very many cases not started by the handful of Catholics who post around here...but we try to reply etc. They're going to get a bit heated...depending on the topic..

Anyways, you know the history of the forum, I don't, and obviously feel that a 'mega thread' is required....and I'll go along with that, I'm just hoping that it will be fair...

Fanny Cradock

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

^I think there are occasions when it would be helpful having a Catholic viewpoint on issues.

But we do have that! In fact we a number of threads Catholicism on the main page.

philologos

This arrangement is good I think, a lot of the other threads were being ruined by getting into discussions about people not being a part of the "real church" amongst other things. At least here we can have a principled discussion about our disagreements here, and focus on what issues we have in common elsewhere.

Most of the discussion had been of the latter form, until recently, as Fanny Craddock has already pointed out. Although some of the discussion was stimulating, I'd really like to see this forum return to normality. That is, productive discussion about our common faith in Christ.

Fanny Cradock

Jakkass wrote: »

I'd really like to see this forum return to normality. That is, productive discussion about our common faith in Christ.

Here here!

lmaopml

Jackass, I understand the sentiment, I just think it will probably put the couple of Catholics who post here, and who have responded to the coercion [ which manifests itself on 'both' sides ] off....and then it would be Christianity cept for Catholics..

..the peace will presume, because everybody will agree with eachother that the Catholic Church isn't, in fact, the one true church....*sighs* and all the Mary statues should be blasted with a good lightening bolt....

vodafoneproblem

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

But we do have that! In fact we a number of threads Catholicism on the main page.

Oh, I meant in the mod-lounge sense, Fanny. (That jewel-bedecked place with 50" flat-screen tv's and as much tea and triangle sandwiches as you can handle... ) I just think there's a Catholic voice/perspective needed there sometimes.

philologos

lmaopml wrote: »

..the peace will presume, because everybody will agree with eachother that the Catholic Church isn't, in fact, the one true church....*sighs* and all the Mary statues should be blasted with a good lightening bolt....

I'm quite happy to deal with the role of Mary, and the role of the RCC within the Christian community, but it gets a bit inadequate having this being repeated in other threads numerous times over the last week. We get it, you think that the RCC is the one true church, and if we disobey it that it is in some way wrong.

Sometimes Christian issues go far beyond the RCC and that's to be expected. There is nothing wrong with non-denominational discussion.

hinault

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

Oh, I meant in the mod-lounge sense, Fanny. (That jewel-bedecked place with 50" flat-screen tv's and as much tea and triangle sandwiches as you can handle... ) I just think there's a Catholic voice/perspective needed there sometimes.

I agree.
An RC perpsective would be welcome.

We can but ask!:)