Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

marno21

KCAccidental wrote: »

majority of that infrastructure built in Socialist times. Say what you want, but they valued public transport

I wonder now many times did the Hungarians hear about "new Metro Budapest"?

Or did the socialists talk about how great quality bus corridors were on routes with traffic warranting a Metro?

Perhaps FG could do with having a chat with these boys, they seem to be a bit more on the ball.

spacetweek

KCAccidental wrote: »

majority of that infrastructure built in Socialist times. Say what you want, but they valued public transport

Car ownership wasn't allowed.

KCAccidental

spacetweek wrote: »

Car ownership wasn't allowed.

yes it was, just wasn't encouraged! Also helped that the big oil companies weren't able to lobby government to tear up tramlines.

anyways, straying a bit off topic...

Consonata

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Half the GDP, think you need to check that fact, Ireland is just slightly larger than Budapest in terms of GDP.

Where's your source for that?

Irish GDP: $283 Billion currently



Hungarian GDP: $121 Billion Currently



Ireland Stats Hungary Stats

So it isn't a case of lack of finance, considering Hungary is still building train lines, and has done within the last 4 years. Its a lack of political will and effort.

LXFlyer

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

It doesn't look to me like it'll be finished in the next 15 weeks, it still seems to be a building site along large parts of the line. And opening the city to an entirely new traffic system in the run-up to Christmas sounds like a bit of a potential disaster.
I'd guesstimate February for passengers.

A further update. Still don't think it'll be completed in time?

Stephen15

spacetweek wrote: »

Car ownership wasn't allowed.

Not a bad idea

prettyboy81

The civil works are moving at a pace. I could see a massive difference walking by the Broadstone stop yesterday since I walked by it last week.

wakka12

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Half the GDP, think you need to check that fact, Ireland is just slightly larger than Budapest in terms of GDP.

Is that an excuse then?

Idbatterim

https://radio.rte.ie/radio1highlights/luas-works-business-traffic/

LUAS works“Absolute mayhem… Carnage… there has to be a better way.”

If only there was a better way, if only it could have been put underground :rolleyes::mad:

MrMorooka

There seem to be a large number of articles and things appearing in the media in the last few weeks about disruption to businesses. I really don't understand why this is only appearing now, or what they want- the work is in the final stages now, it will be all wrapped up in a couple of months! Nothing can be done about it now.

LeinsterDub

Idbatterim wrote: »

https://radio.rte.ie/radio1highlights/luas-works-business-traffic/

LUAS works“Absolute mayhem… Carnage… there has to be a better way.”

If only there was a better way, if only it could have been put underground :rolleyes::mad:

Carnage really? But I do think they should have more signs on the works .

For example. Still on Track for December 2017. Your average Joe doesn't know it's nearly done

Idbatterim

I think there may be tooth and nail fighting about future luas city centre lines and rightfully so...

Zebra3

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Carnage really? But I do think they should have more signs on the works .

For example. Still on Track for December 2017. Your average Joe doesn't know it's nearly done

The average Joe knows the Luas works are finishing up shortly.

It's basically corrupt journalism. Focusing on non-stories while ignoring everything that's going on in The Establishment.

Idbatterim

The average Joe knows the Luas works are finishing up shortly.

It's basically corrupt journalism. Focusing on non-stories while ignoring everything that's going on in The Establishment.

I disagree. I think its good to focus on the ridiculous level of disruption. Might make them come up with more adequate solutions in future....

Also we would likely be banging a very different tune if we were traders effected by it! The city centre has looked like a warzone over it for over two years, for something that will move at a glacial pace, and has negative knock on effects to the bus network and other road users...

MJohnston

Idbatterim wrote: »

I disagree. I think its good to focus on the ridiculous level of disruption. Might make them come up with more adequate solutions in future....

Also we would likely be banging a very different tune if we were traders effected by it! The city centre has looked like a warzone over it for over two years, for something that will move at a glacial pace, and has negative knock on effects to the bus network and other road users...

...and that will greatly benefit their businesses when complete compared to how things were before construction!

Idbatterim

...and that will greatly benefit their businesses when complete compared to how things were before construction!

assuming all of the businesses survived! If they had put in the proper solution metro north, the same argument could be said. Would have solved the same issue far better and not neccessitated 368,000,000 million for SEVEN trams and 6 or 7 mickey mouse kilometers...

I am well aware metro north wouldnt have served some of the area that cross city serves before that is thrown out there...

But its funny how we have millions over years to spend, pretty much duplicating services, but not less over the short term to just put in a proper solution and be done with it...

MJohnston

Metro North and Luas Cross City/BXD were never in conflict though - the construction of one was never going to directly preclude the other (potentially indirectly in regards to finances). And I don't think it was ever on the table that BXD might be an underground line.

LuckyLloyd

I don't think the disruption has been worth it, being honest. It won't carry enough people quickly enough to have been worth two years of disruption and the hampering of the backbone of the city's public transport system.

With the push to finish since Easter, disruption has been particularly acute.

markpb

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I don't think the disruption has been worth it, being honest. It won't carry enough people quickly enough to have been worth two years of disruption and the hampering of the backbone of the city's public transport system.

To be pedantic, you don't think the disruption _will have been_ worth it. You have no idea how many people it will carry, how long it will take, what impact it will have on public transport (positive or negative), what impact it will have on traffic and what impact it will have on the city as a whole.

Maybe wait until its carried its first passenger before deciding to condemn it. You could even wait till its been operational for 50 years before deciding if two years of disruption was worth it.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

...and that will greatly benefit their businesses when complete compared to how things were before construction!

The retail business is inherently a short term one in terms of forward outlook - long term benefits are meaningless in the context of that industry generally.

It's all about the here and now.

Retailers hate anything that involves change, and which *could* in any way adversely affect their businesses.

That's a fact of retail life.

One has to view retailers' comments in that light when listening to them.

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

To be pedantic, you don't think the disruption _will have been_ worth it. You have no idea how many people it will carry, how long it will take, what impact it will have on public transport (positive or negative), what impact it will have on traffic and what impact it will have on the city as a whole.

Maybe wait until its carried its first passenger before deciding to condemn it. You could even wait till its been operational for 50 years before deciding if two years of disruption was worth it.

I think part of the problem is that no one knows what the effect of LUAS on the city centre will be, particularly given the complete lack of planning for traffic and bus routes at the outset.

LuckyLloyd

markpb wrote: »

To be pedantic, you don't think the disruption _will have been_ worth it. You have no idea how many people it will carry, how long it will take, what impact it will have on public transport (positive or negative), what impact it will have on traffic and what impact it will have on the city as a whole.

Maybe wait until its carried its first passenger before deciding to condemn it. You could even wait till its been operational for 50 years before deciding if two years of disruption was worth it.

We already know:

- assumed frequency
- travel time through the central portion
- likely negative affect on Bus services based on severe disruption to date (particularly in light of failure to force through measures to remove cars on Eden Quay)

And now we know the disruption it had on the City Centre over the time of its construction.

We don't need to wait for passengers to board to start having conversations of this nature.

Sierra Oscar

MJohnston wrote: »

Metro North and Luas Cross City/BXD were never in conflict though - the construction of one was never going to directly preclude the other (potentially indirectly in regards to finances). And I don't think it was ever on the table that BXD might be an underground line.

I remember serious concerns were raised by An Bord Pleanála when Luas BXD was given the green-light back in 2012. An Bord Pleanála basically highlighted that it was envisaged during the planning stages that DART Underground and Metro North construction would precede the construction of Luas BXD. They outlined in this letter that a station box for Metro North would be placed below the Luas BXD, so the construction of this station box should occur during the Luas BXD works to facilitate the future construction of Metro North. They also pointed out that some of the ventilation infrastructure for DART Underground were meant to be placed along the Luas BXD route.

I'm not sure if these works were actually carried out, or if a compromise was reached to alter the plans for the DART Underground / Metro North to allow construction proceed in a different manner? My greatest fear would be that when we do actually go to progress either DART Underground or Metro North it'll emerge that a substantial redesign will be needed as they will not be able to disturb the Luas line which will be already in operation.

I never really heard An Bord Pleanála's concerns being addressed at the time. The attitude was 'sure why would you be worried about that, those projects will never happen'. It would be an awful pity if they were simply ignored at the time on the basis that people thought DART Underground / Metro North would never proceed considering the economic climate at the time. That would be perfect example of shocking transport infrastructure planning.

LXFlyer

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

We already know:

- assumed frequency
- travel time through the central portion
- likely negative affect on Bus services based on severe disruption to date (particularly in light of failure to force through measures to remove cars on Eden Quay)

And now we know the disruption it had on the City Centre over the time of its construction.

We don't need to wait for passengers to board to start having conversations of this nature.

Well we don't really know the frequency.

The current Green Line peak frequency is 16 trams an hour - there is a difference between that and the 20 trams an hour that has been bandied about by all and sundry. It could well be that the existing frequency will be maintained - that's very relevant for the level of disruption at O'Connell Bridge.

As for the bus routes, well we need to see what the revised College Green plans are in detail before we can comment on that.

But as I've posted already, I suspect that there will be changes after the measures some into effect. I think it's a case of the councillors having to see things grind to a complete standstill before they accept the planners' views on restricting car traffic.

Stephen15

I believe all this talk about the disruption it has caused is exgarated. Apart from the diversion away from suffolk street and stop changes which hasnt been all that bad I cant think of that much distruption it has caused to buses. It may have caused severe distruption to motorists which in my opinion shouldnt be in the cc in the first place anyway.

All this crap with buisness lobby groups giving out about the works and trying to prevent the civic square is nonsense. Town is hopping these days with tourists and locals a like and I believe this will only continue and probably even increase when luas cc is complete along with the proposed civic area. Surely this is benefitting buisnesses and not hampering them.

LuckyLloyd

Stephen, with respect, as a regular dublin bus user I can confirm that the disruption to the bus network has been incredibly significant. And how could it not? We're treading the whole service through the eye of a needle.

MrMorooka

One thing about retailers, some of them are getting absolute gifts out of this, like Tower Records/H&F/Starbucks on Dawson St, who are all located now literally on the platform of what will be a very busy stop. Nothing to complain about there.

Stephen15

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Stephen, with respect, as a regular dublin bus user I can confirm that the disruption to the bus network has been incredibly significant. And how could it not? We're treading the whole service through the eye of a needle.

What significant disruption? The only bit of disruption where buses have actually that I can think of is the Suffolk Street diversion which can be bad at certain times depending on traffic but generally isin't that bad. Which only adds an extra 5-10 mins onto journey times.

ArmaniJeanss

Stephen15 wrote: »

What significant disruption? The only bit of disruption where buses have actually that I can think of is the Suffolk Street diversion which can be bad at certain times depending on traffic but generally isin't that bad. Which only adds an extra 5-10 mins onto journey times.

A bus that used to go Dawson St, Suffolk St, Church Lane, Bank, Westmoreland St, O'Connell St now gets delayed in the Luas works on Dawson St, has to swing around via Trinity, Westland Row, and Pearse St, get stuck again at the busgate crossover at College Green, and is then in oft-gridlocked single lane traffic all the way from Westmoreland St to Parnell Sq.
imo the additional time is closer to 40/45 minutes than the 5/10 you suggest.

LXFlyer

Stephen15 wrote: »

I believe all this talk about the disruption it has caused is exgarated. Apart from the diversion away from suffolk street and stop changes which hasnt been all that bad I cant think of that much distruption it has caused to buses. It may have caused severe distruption to motorists which in my opinion shouldnt be in the cc in the first place anyway.

All this crap with buisness lobby groups giving out about the works and trying to prevent the civic square is nonsense. Town is hopping these days with tourists and locals a like and I believe this will only continue and probably even increase when luas cc is complete along with the proposed civic area. Surely this is benefitting buisnesses and not hampering them.

Really? No disruption?

It may not be obvious to you, but it is blindingly obvious to anyone who uses a bus through the city centre.

Also many routes passing through the city centre have had to have their running times (end to end journey times) extended (and therefore require additional buses) to maintain the existing timetable - those are buses that could have been used to increase frequency or operate new routes, but the delays arising from the black hole that is College Green have meant they have been used to shore up the existing timetable.

That won't be obvious to you, but I can assure you that's what has happened.

The journey times through the LUAS works area are completely variable from one day to the next, and most days it is incredibly slow.