Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

markpb

TheDB wrote: »

Rerouting buses from O'Connell Street and college green is a non-starter - that is where people want to go. If you don't make Public Transport easy for people they simply won't use it.

By the same argument, why route Luas BXD anywhere but O'Connell st and College Green or people won't use it?

I moved to Dublin 15 years ago and I've never once wanted to go to O'Connell st. I've gotten off there because its close to Busaras or Connolly (which could be served by Amiens st and Marlborough st), close to Henry st/Jervis (which could be served by Capel st) or to change to another DB bus or the Luas Red line but I've never once actually gone to O'Connell st. Do many of DBs customers regularly make visits to the GPO and Clearys? Maybe the younger ones pop into Ann Summers for a bit of fun?

monument

TheDB wrote: »

Rerouting buses from O'Connell Street and college green is a non-starter - that is where people want to go. If you don't make Public Transport easy for people they simply won't use it.

Just like Luas, if the service is good enough people will be ok walking 200-300 meter or more.

But if you look at my 48a options above you should note that it includes options which has the route (1) touching the north end of O'Connell Street, (2) using Tara Street which is less 100 meters to College Green, (3) around 200 meters from Grafton Street.

Such a route would:

-- be less congested than sharing with BXD and other routes
-- have less conflicts with pedestrians
-- have less sharp turns on very narrow streets
-- have far better rail connections and
-- be closer to the IFSC, the Docklands in general, and the many offices around the Merrion Square area

Because the route is less affected by congestion in the core it becomes more attractive to users who want to skip the core -- get from one side of the city centre to another or one suburb to another etc.

But what I'm talking about is more likely suited to BRT. Dublin Bus is not set up in a way that allows for much vision.

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I thought this was obvious but I shall assume you know what a bottleneck is, and that I don't need to explain the concept further. I don't know why you're relativising this, either the streets we have available are fit for carrying more bus lanes or they're not.

Or you can make the street bus only or only limited access to private cars.

It's often more of a political question.

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

What exists in other cities is almost completely irrelevant,

I could not dissagree more strongly.

A failed attempt at copying a failed vision for mass car transport in cities got us into this mess, it's time to keep moving away from that and to ramp up our learning from those who have got more livable cities and better mixes of public transport, walking, cycling and car use.

Amsterdam -- for example -- has an even more confined city core road network but they picked diffrent

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

i.e. that the amount of cross-city bus services we run are not going to be adequately carried by the alternative streets unless they are moved rather substantially away from the city centre.

See my above reply to TheDB.

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Even if we have wide streets (e.g. Dame st), that corridor is (at Lord Edward St.) nothing more than a somewhat wide 2 lane road.

There's more than one way off Dame Street from the west -- Georges Street, Parliament Street, Lord Edward Street.

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

With the "options" above, we're talking about moving 3.5 km of the busiest bus route in dublin away from the central business district (albeit closer to Connolly and IFSC) - and I accept the above was but one alternative. But it has to be recognised that Luas BXD will prove detrimental to the Dublin Bus modus operandi as it stands. I don't automatically think it will be bad for Dublin transport or even public bus transport as a whole but I think it's only fair for the likes of ixflyer to raise concerns about how this benefits some people far more than others and not be dismissed out of hand for saying so.

Drawing up route options and explaining the benefits amounts to dismissing out of hand?

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Also, some of those options are iffy in that like with current bus routes, they need to also take into account the likely one-way systems that exist. E.g. how would turning right from Tara St. onto Pearse St. work?

As I've already said, there's loads of good reasons to diamanal the one-way systems.

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

where will all those cars that the Gardai use for their operations go and so on.

Dutch, German, Danish etc cities have run projects or have ongoing projects to remove thousands of cars off streets.

I don't think a few Garda cars or officer's own cars are a problem that can't be tackled.

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

One other thing - I think the most important transport corridors in Dublin need to allow for usage by many modes (provided there is not a capacity cost I suppose). Otherwise, of course it would lead to the permanent prioritsation of one mode over another. Will there be much allowance for buses to e.g. drive up Grafton St. when there is no tram in the way? I suspect not.

Examples of "permanent prioritsation of one mode over another" include Grafton Street, Temple Bar, large sections of the Red line in the city centre, the Green line in the city centre... You're fighting a losing battle if you're trying to claim "permanent prioritsation of one mode over another" = a negative all the time.

The road network inside the canals overall still has "permanent prioritsation" of cars in such as way that messes up everything else. That's the permanent prioritsation we need to move away from.

We need to focus on making the best use of the limited space we have and stop worrying too much about the few that will affect.

strassenwo!f

One would imagine that the LUAS link-up will impact on the proposed metro north project, when it happens, e.g. when underground stations need to be built, etc.

Has there been any word from the RPA about how they are going to deal with the fact that the LUAS link-up is going to happen before the metro? Particularly in terms of the station boxes.

I have unfortunately been unable to uncover anything.

lucernarian

monument wrote: »

Examples of "permanent prioritsation of one mode over another" include Grafton Street, Temple Bar, large sections of the Red line in the city centre, the Green line in the city centre... You're fighting a losing battle if you're trying to claim "permanent prioritsation of one mode over another" = a negative all the time.

The road network inside the canals overall still has "permanent prioritsation" of cars in such as way that messes up everything else. That's the permanent prioritsation we need to move away from.

We need to focus on making the best use of the limited space we have and stop worrying too much about the few that will affect.

You're replying to things that I never really brought up I suppose. I'm not fighting a losing battle if I'm not claiming prioritisation is a negative in the first place. For instance, that lengthy reply seems to imply that road space = space for cars when intrinsically they can carry buses and cyclists and pedestrians too. I fear that the "BX" part will take up very valuable road space for the benefit of one particular mode of transport (and one particular route at that). I think it's a geniune concern and I would think you appreciate this as a whole.

You're being quite unfair and unbalanced however when you say this:

Drawing up route options and explaining the benefits amounts to dismissing out of hand?

I was not implying you were doing so in my post and I appreciate that you made an effort to simply support your own view. There were other posters who were merely dismissing the likes of ixflyer as "naysayers" as though the points weren't really worth discussing in the first place. That was a perception based on a number of recent posts but I thought you could see for yourself that concerns being raised in respect of Luas BXD were being dismissed by others at least.

You could also try not to quote my sentences out of context, as though it's somehow possible to write a balanced response to a snippet of a contiguous point I was making. Like when I was noting the suitability of Dublin's streets for carrying public transport on alternative corridors, it's not about how wide the streets are compared to Amsterdam in x meters. All that matters really is how wide the streets need to be to cater for the uses expected from it. (Even a street carrying 4 bus lanes throughout could not carry 500 buses per minute, as a crude example) How can I expect to discuss something when you have taken a number of points willfully out of context?

There's more than one way off Dame Street from the west -- Georges Street, Parliament Street, Lord Edward Street.

I'm sorry but I don't understand what point you were trying to make here. When you say "off Dame St. from the west" are you talking about e.g. traffic on Dame St. that is bound for destinations further west, or, traffic on Lord Edward St. that's continuing onwards to Dame St. and then can leave by streets other than College Green?

I also asked a genuine question relating to Grafton St, will there be allowances made for other vehicles to use it in tandem with Luas trams? I would be much happier about the prospect of BXD if buses and bicycles could still legally use the street, even in limited circumstances.

Quickelles

Well, in a few years we'll finally know whether Garret Fitzgerald was right or wrong about the chaos a City centre luas would cause.

markpb

Quickelles wrote: »

Well, in a few years we'll finally know whether Garret Fitzgerald was right or wrong about the chaos a City centre luas would cause.

The existing red line doesn't run through the city centre?

Quickelles

markpb wrote: »

The existing red line doesn't run through the city centre?

Not way Garret worried about! :rolleyes:

AngryLips

Quickelles wrote: »

Nothing is EVER built in Ireland without someone whining.

Look no further than Boards C&T

monument

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

You're replying to things that I never really brought up I suppose. I'm not fighting a losing battle if I'm not claiming prioritisation is a negative in the first place. For instance, that lengthy reply seems to imply that road space = space for cars when intrinsically they can carry buses and cyclists and pedestrians too. I fear that the "BX" part will take up very valuable road space for the benefit of one particular mode of transport (and one particular route at that). I think it's a geniune concern and I would think you appreciate this as a whole.

No, not just cars. My point is that sometimes prioritisation will work against buses (just like it will work against other modes at times).

It's flawed to look at BXD or Luas in general as "one route". Luas will be part of a higher frequency and high capacity network. The network effect works best when frequency and capacity are higher -- making switching once or twice more attractive to users and potential users.

Comparing the amount of routes on Luas to the amount of routes Dublin Bus is like comparing apples and oranges -- On "just" two routes Luas carries closer to a 1/5 of Dublin Bus total, but Dublin Bus has something like 40 or 50 routes?

It's about carrying more people and making the most of the space. That some users of one particular mode might have to walk a little further or switch modes is small stuff in the bigger picture.

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

You're being quite unfair and unbalanced however when you say this:

I was not implying you were doing so in my post and I appreciate that you made an effort to simply support your own view. There were other posters who were merely dismissing the likes of ixflyer as "naysayers" as though the points weren't really worth discussing in the first place. That was a perception based on a number of recent posts but I thought you could see for yourself that concerns being raised in respect of Luas BXD were being dismissed by others at least.

Fair enough if that was not directed at me. Although your last post is a direct reply to me, it could have been a lot clearer that you were referring to others.

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

You could also try not to quote my sentences out of context, as though it's somehow possible to write a balanced response to a snippet of a contiguous point I was making. Like when I was noting the suitability of Dublin's streets for carrying public transport on alternative corridors, it's not about how wide the streets are compared to Amsterdam in x meters. All that matters really is how wide the streets need to be to cater for the uses expected from it. (Even a street carrying 4 bus lanes throughout could not carry 500 buses per minute, as a crude example) How can I expect to discuss something when you have taken a number of points willfully out of context?

Everybody here can read your and my posts in full. So, with respect, please drop the 'out of context' stuff.

I don't really know what your point is.

My point is that Amsterdam makes better use of more narrow streets, including their own pinch points. It's a rather simple point and it's a point I'm just putting out there.

And "500 buses per minute" isn't a "crude example" it's an example so unrealistic that it's useless. It's so unrealistic that as a point it has no meaning.

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I'm sorry but I don't understand what point you were trying to make here. When you say "off Dame St. from the west" are you talking about e.g. traffic on Dame St. that is bound for destinations further west, or, traffic on Lord Edward St. that's continuing onwards to Dame St. and then can leave by streets other than College Green?

Both directions -- there's three streets on the west side of Dame Street that are suitable for bus entry / exit points into Dame Street.

I'd suggest that Lord Edward Street's main problem is too much private traffic and this can be sorted by making it mostly or fully a bus / public transport only street.

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I also asked a genuine question relating to Grafton St, will there be allowances made for other vehicles to use it in tandem with Luas trams? I would be much happier about the prospect of BXD if buses and bicycles could still legally use the street, even in limited circumstances.

It's shared use.

I'm guessing it'll be restricted to bus lane type traffic (ie bikes, buses, taxis), mainly because I'm also guessing that College Green will have a 24 hour bus gate.

lucernarian

monument wrote: »

Everybody here can read your and my posts in full. So, with respect, please drop the 'out of context' stuff.

I don't really know what your point is.

My point is that Amsterdam makes better use of more narrow streets, including their own pinch points. It's a rather simple point and it's a point I'm just putting out there.

And "500 buses per minute" isn't a "crude example" it's an example so unrealistic that it's useless. It's so unrealistic that as a point it has no meaning.

I'll just be very brief for the moment. Your post takes up nearly two lengths of my laptop screen. The last one was much longer. So with respect, I don't find it "readable". You addressed a sentence that was completely irrelevant without the paragraph it was contained in, and you had already (fairly) addressed that paragraph!! How is that not putting something out of context? I'll ask again: could you please address my points with their context at least?? And I'm not talking about simply quoting more parts of the reply.

monument

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I'll just be very brief for the moment. Your post takes up nearly two lengths of my laptop screen. The last one was much longer. So with respect, I don't find it "readable". You addressed a sentence that was completely irrelevant without the paragraph it was contained in, and you had already (fairly) addressed that paragraph!! How is that not putting something out of context? I'll ask again: could you please address my points with their context at least?? And I'm not talking about simply quoting more parts of the reply.

Exactly what did I take out of context?

Could you please quote where I did this and explain how my reply is taking your point out of context? Thanks!

TheBandicoot

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Has there been any word from the RPA about how they are going to deal with the fact that the LUAS link-up is going to happen before the metro? Particularly in terms of the station boxes.

I have unfortunately been unable to uncover anything.

Here [PDF warning]

Basically they will use piles and crossbeams to stick the Luas trackbed up in the air and build the station box underneath it. No major planned disruption to Luas operation during this.

LXFlyer

Monument - I've not had time to go through this thread in detail - but why do you keep referring to the 48a?

That route was cancelled over two years ago!!!

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

Monument - I've not had time to go through this thread in detail - but why do you keep referring to the 48a?

That route was cancelled over two years ago!!!

Given what I was replying to, and the maps I put up, it's reasonably clear I should have said 46a.

"I was wrong on the internet" my friend beside me says.

nowecant

monument wrote: »

"I was wrong on the internet" my friend beside me says.

http://xkcd.com/386/

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

Given what I was replying to, and the maps I put up, it's reasonably clear I should have said 46a.

"I was wrong on the internet" my friend beside me says.

Well to be fair it was a valid question.

To type it once I could understand, but you repeatedly refer to the 48a above!

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

Well to be fair it was a valid question.

To type it once I could understand, but you repeatedly refer to the 48a above!

I'm unclear how it happened more than once. There's an image in there so I was at a laptop when posting and maybe I was distracted between writing 46a before the image and 48a afterways.

Aard

I think it was pretty obvious he was talking about the 46a, even if he kept making the mistake. Furthermore, it was obvious that he was putting forward alternative city centre routes in general rather than only one for the one route he mentioned.

I agree with Monument that there are some clear north-south alternatives to the OCS spine. Capel St and Gardiner St on the north side, and Georges St and Westland Row / Kildare St on the south side.

LXFlyer

Listen I'm only pointing out the error! Take a chill pill for goodness sakes!

PauloConn

Was just looking at the maps for the new line. Am i correct in assuming they'll be using the old train line from Broadstone through Phibsboro into Cabra?
Also, the Phibsboro stop seems a bit out of the way.... but if using the line then not much they can do.

monument

PauloConn wrote: »

Was just looking at the maps for the new line. Am i correct in assuming they'll be using the old train line from Broadstone through Phibsboro into Cabra?
Also, the Phibsboro stop seems a bit out of the way.... but if using the line then not much they can do.

You are indeed correct -- it will use the old railway cutting from Broadstone to Broombridge.

It's a pity the cutting isn't closer to the centre of Phibsboro, but the stop will be well placed to serve parts of the residential areas of Phibsboro, Cabra, and Grangegorman (the Grangegorman stop will not be in action from day one and Broadstone would be further away).

nowecant

monument wrote: »

(the Grangegorman stop will not be in action from day one and Broadstone would be further away).

I don't understand why this should be so. Obviously the DIT/Grangegorman is going ahead, some of the building work has even started on site. Surely building it now would be cheaper and cause less disruption in future.

Even build it and don't have the trams stopping at it for a year or two until its needs seems like a much better solution.

Telchak

nowecant wrote: »

Even build it and don't have the trams stopping at it for a year or two until its needs seems like a much better solution.

I imagine that's the plan. It will only be a couple of years before it needs to be opened.

PauloConn

monument wrote: »

It's a pity the cutting isn't closer to the centre of Phibsboro, but the stop will be well placed to serve parts of the residential areas of Phibsboro, Cabra, and Grangegorman .

Yeah, i thought it'd be right through but then you'd be blocking up the whole of the NCR/N2 junction there. At least they're taking advantage of some of the existing infrastructures that were there and will mean the build from Broadstone to BroomBridge will require stations to be built and not cause traffic chaos.

Oasis_Dublin

I imagine putting in the eventual Grangegorman stop will cause no disruption in the future. About 2/3 years ago, they extended the platforms on the Green Line and I don't remember it causing an disruption whatsoever. It should be handy enough* to do the work off the track line and cause no disruption.

*I don't have an engineering brain, so phrases like the one highlighted are how I communicate!

nowecant

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/new-luas-works-to-start-in-weeks-1.1408027

Not much new but thought i would post anyway

New Luas works to start in weeks
Cellars underneath historic streets to be filled ahead of track works

Work on the cross-city Luas line, Luas BXD, which will link the existing Red and Green lines through Dublin city centre, is to start within weeks.

The Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) plans to break ground on the project in the week beginning June 24th, with the identification and filling in of cellars on the historic city centre streets along the route. Just 25 of a potential 400 vaulted cellars associated with the city’s Georgian buildings have so far been identified.

The work will involve digging narrow trenches adjacent to the kerbside at 30m intervals to establish the position, extent and condition of the cellars, before they are filled where necessary with a foam and concrete mix. The streets most likely to be affected are Dawson, Westmoreland, Parnell, Marlborough and Dominick streets. In many instances the original buildings connected to these cellars have long since been demolished, the RPA said .

The cellars need to be filled to eliminate “voids” in order to ensure the stability of the line, but also to provide a new area to lay utility pipes which are currently in the centre of roadways and would be directly under where the tracks must be laid. The cellar works and the diversion of pipes must be completed ahead of the laying of the track, which is due to start in early 2015.

The full cellar works are expected to take six to eight months and to continue until February 2014. However, the RPA said it hoped to spend no more than 10 to 15 days outside any property and would run the work concurrently on the applicable streets to minimise disruption. “Keeping the streets open for traffic, commuters, shoppers and business is of paramount importance for the project so there will be no road closures during the cellar works phase,” a spokeswoman for the project said. There will, however, be restrictions and some space limitations on kerbs.

Archaeological assessment and excavation of the cellars will be carried out and the cellars will be “preserved by record”, the RPA said.

The 5.6km line from St Stephen’s Green to Broombridge in Cabra is due to be completed in 2017 and is expected to add 10 million passengers a year to the Luas system. The existing lines carried 30 million passengers last year.

FreudianSlippers

PauloConn wrote: »

Yeah, i thought it'd be right through but then you'd be blocking up the whole of the NCR/N2 junction there. At least they're taking advantage of some of the existing infrastructures that were there and will mean the build from Broadstone to BroomBridge will require stations to be built and not cause traffic chaos.

Ah in fairness it's a 5min walk. Boombridge on the other hand... I would have thought continuing it on through Ashtown to the N3 train station made more sense, but mustn't be enough room to add Luas tracks?

PauloConn

Yeah, it gets tight between residential, the traintracks and canal. There are a few spots it opens up again but it wouldn't be enough i don't think.
Hopefully it means some rejuvenation for Cabra, Broombridge and even Finglas. That would be good to see

Zebra3

PauloConn wrote: »

Yeah, it gets tight between residential, the traintracks and canal. There are a few spots it opens up again but it wouldn't be enough i don't think.
Hopefully it means some rejuvenation for Cabra, Broombridge and even Finglas. That would be good to see

+1. The train station there is an absolute disgrace.

Does anyone know if the factories backing on to the land beside the station are still in use or not? They look disused....

nowecant

Zebra3 wrote: »

Does anyone know if the factories backing on to the land beside the station are still in use or not? They look disused....

I know DIT own some of them and are turning them into a new sports center. You can see the plans here

A lot of the other units are vacant as they are not really fit for purpose anymore. This is especially true in the Dublin Industrial estate the other side of the canal.