Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

Podge_irl

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Ok, could you please in your infinite wisdom inform me where Best at his best is better than Flannery at his? (Other than "leadership" and supposed scrummaging)

Personally I think that is disgraceful that a player of Best's quality was ever picked over Flannery from 2006-2008.

He's better at rucking and on the deck. He's a better scrummager (apparently). And he runs more intelligent lines when he does run, even if it is less often then Flannery, who is pretty ineffectual a lot of the time when carrying.

danthefan

I do have an answer, I just couldn't be arsed. Flannery plays for Munster, therefore your mind is made up.

val_jester

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Still don't have an answer? :rolleyes:

I immediately admitted that 30 was too high, but there is no reason that he couldn't have have had ~15. He is extremely talented but had BOD ahead of him for Ireland and is always injured. He would have been the perfect option for lowly games in tours and such.

The 30 caps was also said without realising that players like Reddan, Wallace and Quinlan never reached 30 caps. To say that a player could have had 20caps for their country didn't seem like a compliment considering a 28 year old Rory Best has ~50caps.

Murphy is unlucky with injuries but the only time he would have been in with a chance of getting a cap was on the tour to Canada/Usa in 2009 and that would have been on the wing instead of Dowling because Cave is a better 13 than him.

Cpt_Blackbeard

danthefan wrote: »

I do have an answer, I just couldn't be arsed. Flannery plays for Munster, therefore your mind is made up.

Nail on the head. I'm still deluded into thinking that Munster are better than Leinster and Buckley better than Ross too. :rolleyes:

danthefan

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Nail on the head. I'm still deluded into thinking that Munster are better than Leinster and Buckley better than Ross too. :rolleyes:

This was about Rory Best, he doesn't play for Leinster.

irishbucsfan

Flannery will never get back to the level he was at. Until I see it I won't believe it. No way a player comes back from a 2 year injury and reaches the same level, in any sport. It's unfortunate, but it's realistic.

Given that Best and Flannery were fighting it out for a spot before his injury (I thought Flannery was slightly better) it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that Flannery is probably the lesser player now.

Rory Best does so much work in every game that some people completely ignore or don't pick up on. Look at how many times in a match he will be the bridging player in a ruck trying to steal the ball. Look at how many times he's the guy driving the other forward over the gain line. See how many "assists" he has by making the simple passes count that other forwards would've taken into contact.

I'm sick of seeing Flannery catapulted ficticiously ahead of Best. Absence makes the heart grow fonder. Flannery is a brilliant hooker, but he's not a God of the game. The gap between himself and Best is not massive, and it seems like some on here regard Best as unfit to wipe Sir Flannery's arse let alone "mind the 2 Jersey" for him.

If you can't see that Best is an excellent, and I mean excellent hooker, then you're either looking for the wrong things from a tight 5 forward, or you're watching the wrong games.

CatFromHue

some players are just unpopular with some fans and can do no right , rory best and mick o driscoll are two examples.

flannery was shading best when he was fit. during the grand slam of 2009 flannery started 4 games but came off for best in all of em. best started 1 but came off for flannery in 1.

who is to say what would be the situation if flannery were fit now. he isnt though. best is rightfully the starting hooker for ireland as he is far ahead of the other competition.

if flannery can prove his fitness it would be a good idea for him to try and get game time with a currie cup / air new zealand cup / australian club team during the summer.

flannery has a great boot on him though
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0C512s5X8w&feature=related

bamboozle

val_jester wrote: »

Murphy is unlucky with injuries but the only time he would have been in with a chance of getting a cap was on the tour to Canada/Usa in 2009 and that would have been on the wing instead of Dowling because Cave is a better 13 than him.

Murphy got a few caps on the tour to Argentina a few years back, however despite having buckets of pace he was physically miles off the pace and was unable/unwilling to pass or offload, there are lots of AIL players as good as him.

Flannery is/was an excellent hooker, we've been very lucky with him playing in games where we've won 20/20 lineouts which have given us an excellent platform to win games against top opposition, Heaslip's try against France in the GS year is a good example, pinpoint throw into lineout, quick feed to backs 2 phases later Heaslip is scoring under the posts, we have not had that consistency in the lineout since, Best for all his ability in contact and defensively is inconsistent in the lineout and has poor discipline, numerous penalties given away under the posts in this years 6 nations.

However i just dont see Flannery coming back the player he was so we're stuck with Best, Cronin and Varley, if Varley could work on his lineout he'd be an excellent player.

For what its worth i'd much rather see time spent developing the likes of Sherry, Varley or Annett than Strauss getting international caps, great as he is for Leinster, he's not Irish.

ambid

bamboozle wrote: »

...
For what its worth i'd much rather see time spent developing the likes of Sherry, Varley or Annett than Strauss getting international caps, great as he is for Leinster, he's not Irish.

I think there is separate thread for this.

totallegend

bamboozle wrote: »

For what its worth i'd much rather see time spent developing the likes of Sherry, Varley or Annett than Strauss getting international caps, great as he is for Leinster, he's not Irish.

stop right there. We had four pages of the Strauss discussion a while ago. Please let's not rehash it.

smurphy29

I have long held a supsicion that Best is unfavourably compared to Flannery because Jerry looks an ancient Greek god with his posture and mane of hair, whereas Rory Best was bald at 23.

Jerry is a great player and our best thrower but he was in and out with injuries between 2006 and 2008 and took a while to recover his form. Best is a good scrummager, being a converted prop, and is actually one tough cookie.

Jemo

Does it really matter? Remember that Luke was arguably our best left wing before injury, considerably better than Earls and Trimble in many peoples eyes. Now he is not after a long term injury but may or may not regain that form at a later date. You can't say that Flannery is better than Best on current form because nobody knows how Flannery would be playing at the moment. He may come back and find that the game has past him by, or his confidence could be knocked.

For what its worth, with the current tackler rules, I think Best is much better suited to the Irish gameplan. He regularly holds the tackler up or hangs off to go for the rip which generally slows the ball down or wins us a turnover. At first he gave away some penalties doing it, as did Heaslip and Strauss, but hes refined it now and it is an excellent weapon. Thats not to say that Flannery couldn't adapt his game in the same way, but we'll have to wait and see.

GerM

Flannery was the best hooker in Europe in 2006. That was 5 years ago. Come the WC, he is going to be a 33 year old with a body falling to pieces who has played a handful of games in 2 years and a discipline problem. He is still (I assume) the best thrower of the ball available but we will have to see how strong this remains with John Hayes not around to do his forklift impression. Rory Best isn’t as good a thrower. No doubt about that. He is a better hooker though in my opinion. I wish people would see that there is more to being a hooker than just throwing. Obviously it is a massive part of their game but it’s not the be all and end all. Best is better in the scrum. He’s a more powerful player in the close exchanges. It was himself and DOC who were superb against England in holding up the carrier and winning turnover ball. He has better hands than Flannery e.g. the deft draw and pop to Heaslip for the opening try against Scotland. Flannery is a more mobile player definitely. He will cover more ground, more quickly (if he still can is a major question). A good example was his performance against Biarritz in last year’s semi final where he ate up the yards when Munster broke away in the first half. Then he ruined it all with his lack of discipline which handed Biarritz a lead they never surrendered with a mindless late challenge. But his ball carrying in the hooking position was not superb. Comparisons with someone like Healy are wide of the mark. Flannery has the same mobility but nowhere near the same power. He does not break tackles. He is good when he gets the ball in space but I don’t want my hooker hanging around the back line. I want him smashing into defenders, drawing them in and getting over the gain line. Look at last year’s 6N. In his two games according to (the admittedly dubious) Scrum.com stats, Flannery made 8 carries in 2 games yielding 8 metres. His carrying in Munster’s HEC matches was similar. In a dog fight, he’s not a go to guy with ball in hand. I’m not basing this argument solely on dubious stats, watch Flannery next time he plays. As Dan points out, he is not a direct runner. He goes sideways and tends to get hauled down before the gain line. He doesn’t have the power to get through people. I think his mobility and the mop of hair are quite misleading in this regard, making people think he’s much more adept at carrying than he really is. Best’s workrate is also superb. He’s an excellent tackler who rarely misses one. A hugely impressive statistic: Best did not miss a single tackle in the 6N or the HEC this season and was top tackler on a few of those occasions. 66 tackles made, 0 missed in 8 games. Flannery isn’t anywhere near his level defensively. Last year's HEC and 6N for Flannery had 19 tackles made and 6 missed in 5 matches.

If he proves his fitness, and it’s a massive if at this stage folks, Flannery is in with a good shout of being our starting hooker. His throwing is vital if we’re looking to use the line out as our top attacking platform and with Mike Ross locking things up, Rory Best’s scrum performance isn’t as important. We do lose out in the fight up front if we don’t go with Best though and are leaving ourselves open to losing the physical battle. It will probably be a horses for courses selection with them. Hopefully it works out.

Blut2

sock puppet wrote: »

So you want them in Australia with no coaching and getting no gametime when they could be playing in the ML?

Depending on which players are on the backup list (ie if theyre older and more experienced, and also subject to longer recovery times, or not) I think that having to make long haul flights and extreme time zone changes with little subsequent recovery time before being dropped into the Irish squad would be more damaging than missing one or two ML games. Presumably theyd be able to maintain fitness by training with a club in the SH while down there also.

jacothelad

Great hooker analysis GerM. I totally agree. We are indeed fortunate to have 2 such talented hookers, one who can do the hard graft in defence while still making a constructive contribution to open play and one who can throw in well and also run about a bit, all-be-it sometimes in the wrong direction and who keeps a few people happy and impressed with a bit of 'show pony' stuff. Sometimes he has even done it carrying the ball.

durkadurka

I notice Cusiter is going to Australia for a month to get match fitness - might be worth sending a few of our returning guys there - Ferris maybe, or if Flannery or Kearney become available to play.

GerM

durkadurka wrote: »

I notice Cusiter is going to Australia for a month to get match fitness - might be worth sending a few of our returning guys there - Ferris maybe, or if Flannery or Kearney become available to play.

I would be happy to send Kearney out there but Ferris and Flannery should be managed very carefully due to the delicacy of their injury records. They would be better off being monitored closely and eased back into proceedings; a few games down there could break them for good.

Jemo

Cusiter is back to match fitness almost though, how close is Kearney to being fit? It would be a good idea I reckon, nice for him to get the experience of playnig down there too. The style of game that Ferris plays should allow him to get back to his best quicker than Rob. He also could do with actually allowing an injury to fully heal this time rather than rushing back as usual.

WeeBushy

Jemo wrote: »

Cusiter is back to match fitness almost though, how close is Kearney to being fit? It would be a good idea I reckon, nice for him to get the experience of playnig down there too. The style of game that Ferris plays should allow him to get back to his best quicker than Rob. He also could do with actually allowing an injury to fully heal this time rather than rushing back as usual.

I read somewhere (think it was the IT) that Kearney could be back playing by now, but he chose to rule out the rest of this season in order to get the injury 100%, and use the warm up games to regain fitness. Probably the right call. The back 3 in Leinster are palying so well and its the business end of the season so Schimdt doesn't have the chance to ease players back in - everyone needs to be firing on all cylinders. So a couple of substitute appearances is the best he could've hoped for tbh, and seeing as he's been out for so long that amount of game time wouldn't be worth very much to him, so rushing the injury back even slightly for that would be pointless. A short stint in the SH could do him good, but I can't see the Irish management letting him leave their control.

Kearney heading South

South Africa game plan for Kearney
By BRENDAN FANNING
Sunday May 22 2011

Ireland are making arrangements with the Stormers in South Africa to get much-needed game time for Rob Kearney in July, ahead of the World Cup. And an extra game, against Connacht, has been slotted into the August schedule to facilitate other players who are struggling with long-term lay-offs.

Currently there are eight players, excluding Paul O'Connell who is fit but still short of match practice, who are injured or will have procedures carried out soon, and will need pitch time to get up to some sort of speed for the World Cup in September.

Kearney, however, is the only one who is being pointed south to get some action, having not played since picking up a knee injury last November.

"We're looking at the South African option for Rob and we've made contact with the Stormers there," Ireland manager Paul McNaughton confirmed last week. "We're waiting for sign-off from our medics in the next few days to see what weeks he can start playing. He's been keeping as fit as he can without playing matches, gym fit, but he'll obviously need some preparation before he plays down there."

The list of wounded comprises Tony Buckley, who will have a shoulder procedure carried out in a few weeks; Tomás O'Leary will have an injection in his back soon after the Magners League final next weekend; Andrew Trimble and Paddy Wallace, both of whom have been out with fractured thumbs since mid-April, will be expected to report fit when the squad convenes in Maynooth on June 26 for its first camp; Stephen Ferris who is also expected to be playing in August; and Jerry Flannery who has been based in Dublin recently, rehabbing after surgery on his calf.

Geordan Murphy is another long-term casualty who it is hoped will be fit in August as well.

The Connacht game has been added to the Test list (Scotland, France home and away, and England) to give maximum opportunity to those who need it. The provinces will also be playing their standard warm-up games that month and the Ireland management will likely use those games to run-out those who need it.

Ireland Schedule

Aug 6: v Scotland (a)

Aug 13: v France (a)

Aug 19: v Connacht, UCD Bowl

Aug 20: v France (h)

Aug 27: v England (h)

- BRENDAN FANNING

Jemo

good call, he is a player we can't do without and needs every minute of gametime to get back to full fitness and form.

Gelio

Great thinking. This could work out very well for Kearney. Could get him into the team if he gets right back into it. Nothing to lose because if he doesn't travel he'll hardly make the Irish 22.

jolley123

There's been a lot of discussion about the wingers/back-three in the L thread and I think it's better placed here.

Personally there are a few different combinations I'd like to see in the warm-up games.

11.Earls
14.Bowe
15.Kearney

11.Horgan
14.Bowe
15.Earls


I'd also like to see Jones given a go. Some people have talked about Bowe at full-back but I'd be skeptical about that. He's our best winger and I don't see sense putting him out of position. Hopefully Kearney gets decent game-time down south and comes back firing because all we really need is a solid full-back to complete a dangerous back-three.

Off the back-three topic, I'd really like to see McFadden tried out at inside centre over D'arcy.

Risteard

Well with one game of the season left to play I figured I'd post up my squad in an ideal situation for the WC:

Props: Healy, Ross, Court, Buckley
Hookers: Best, Cronin, Flannery
Second-Rows: DOC, POC, Cullen
Back Rows: Ferris, SOB, Heaslip, Wallace, Jennings (Ryan/McLaughlin)
Scrum-Halves: Reddan, Murray, Stringer
Out-Halves: Sexton, ROG
Wingers: Earls, Bowe. Horgan, Trimble
Centres: D'arcy, BOD, McFadden
Fullback: Jones, Kearney

A couple of weeks ago I'd have had McLaughlin no questions, but Ryan has really upped his game recently, even playing out of position while McLaughlin has continued to do well. Flannery would be replaced by Varley if unable to travel.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Risteard wrote: »

Well with one game of the season left to play I figured I'd post up my squad in an ideal situation for the WC:

I wouldn't be disappointed to see that squad.

I've heard that Murray has not done the form filling that other players have so I'm not certain that he can be selected.

I would be surprised not to see Wallace selected since Kidney pushed for him to get a central contract (and gametime out of position in Ulster) on the basis that he wanted three players who could play OH at the WC

I think you have the backrow picked right and if McLoughlin is picked Leinster will actually be in a rather poor position for the WC. Off topic I know but I think Browne or Sykes would move to 6 for a few games during the RWC

Jemo

Picking an out of form Stringer and an extremely green Murray over Boss who has been excellent seems the wrong call to me. I'd bring Reddan Boss Murray personally.

roycon

picking a man who can only pass the ball in stringer, someone who hasnt even played at a high level or someone who has proved himself to be inconsistent time and time again in boss ahead of tomas oleary who has never played a bad game for ireland is an outrageous call. and whats more jut wont happen. boss and murray will be staying at home

jolley123

roycon wrote: »

tomas oleary who has never played a bad game for ireland

What are you smoking?

Never had a bad game?? What would constitute as a bad game in your eyes? How about diminishing the attacking threat of a back-line by counting to 10 before passing the ball. Or, how about delivering dreadful box kicks consistently.

I'm against the notion of bringing Murray ahead of O'Leary, but certainly not against bringing Boss ahead of him. Either way, that statement is farfetched to say the least.

pajunior

I think it has to be Reddan, TOL and Boss going.
Murray has no experience and Stringer isn't good enough. If I was in Kidneys position I would do something similar to Schmidt and have Reddan on when you want an expansive game and Boss on for the more physical games or closing out games.
Basically Reddan v Australia and Boss v Italy