Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

sock puppet

danthefan wrote: »

Flannery better than Moore and Mealamu, good lord.

Not to mention the players who are second choice to some of the other players named who'd also be of similar quality.

CiaranMT

danthefan wrote: »

Flannery better than Moore and Mealamu, good lord.

Mealamu is close, but I'd take Flannery.

Quint2010

ambid wrote: »

Yeah I read somewhere that Kidney's stand by players will have to following the same routine as the squad - so sleeping when it's night in NZ even though it'll be day time here. Poor sods!

Thats a good policy to be honest. Means players dont have to acclimatise if they are called up. The devil is in the detail as they say..

val_jester

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

There is no way that you could consider Ferris a special case but not Flannery. Flannery hasn't played much rugby in 2 years but if he gets anyway fit and anywhere near his best, he is by far the best option available. He is the only hooker available that is dependable in the lineout.

Ferris at his best isn't even a guaranteed starter, whilst Flannery at his best is in another league to Best and co. It would be a big risk to bring him but, he will be given a chance to prove himself in the warmup games.

Ferris can be considered a special case cos he is one of the best players in his position in the world and can mix it physically with the tri-nations teams, wally, sob and heaslip can as well but the drop down to our other options is much larger than the difference between a fully fit and on top form Flannery and Best. Best is in good form and was excellent for Ireland in the Six Nations, Even when Flannery has been fully fit there has never been much between the two of them. Flannery is not as good in the loose, defence or the scrum as Best and he had become a liability in his last few games with stupid discipline. Best is not as good as Flannery from touch but he is much improved. Mealumu and Moore are better than Flannery and Servat is probably the best hooker in the world, so I can't see how you can argue that an unfit Flannery is anywhere close to him. If Varley was anyway consistent from touch there wouldn't even be an argument for taking Flannery

Hype710

Hope to God Ferris makes it in some shape or form. The thought of him coming off the bench with 20 to go against Australia could be huge for us

ormond lad

val_jester wrote: »

Ferris can be considered a special case cos he is one of the best players in his position in the world and can mix it physically with the tri-nations teams, wally, sob and heaslip can as well but the drop down to our other options is much larger than the difference between a fully fit and on top form Flannery and Best. Best is in good form and was excellent for Ireland in the Six Nations, Even when Flannery has been fully fit there has never been much between the two of them. Flannery is not as good in the loose, defence or the scrum as Best and he had become a liability in his last few games with stupid discipline. Best is not as good as Flannery from touch but he is much improved. Mealumu and Moore are better than Flannery and Servat is probably the best hooker in the world, so I can't see how you can argue that an unfit Flannery is anywhere close to him. If Varley was anyway consistent from touch there wouldn't even be an argument for taking Flannery

That is rubbish, flannery is much more dynamic and effective in the loose. you are correct about the scrum though

val_jester

Hype710 wrote: »

Hope to God Ferris makes it in some shape or form. The thought of him coming off the bench with 20 to go against Australia could be huge for us

You would hope that he is fully fit and starting by the time of the Australia match. I know its only the second match but with the warm up games he should hopefully be fully fit and ready to go. I don't think any of the other Irish players tackle as hard as him, he always seems to match to knock the player backwards on his own.

val_jester

ormond lad wrote: »

That is rubbish, flannery is much more dynamic and effective in the loose. you are correct about the scrum though

I don't think he is anymore, he definitely was when he first burst on to the scene in 2006 but I think Best is better than him at the moment. Also if the type of game Ireland are aspiring to is the Leinster game plan Best is much more suited to it, he has beautiful hands and is well able to but people through gaps.

edit: Best was up near the top tackler in every match for Ireland in the six nations. I'm happy with him as first choice and Flannery is a big loss but I don't think he should be automatic first choice when/if fit.

danthefan

Flannery is an awful ball carrier. He runs sideways and very rarely makes yards.

Cpt_Blackbeard

val_jester wrote: »

Ferris can be considered a special case cos he is one of the best players in his position in the world and can mix it physically with the tri-nations teams, wally, sob and heaslip can as well but the drop down to our other options is much larger than the difference between a fully fit and on top form Flannery and Best. Best is in good form and was excellent for Ireland in the Six Nations, Even when Flannery has been fully fit there has never been much between the two of them. Flannery is not as good in the loose, defence or the scrum as Best and he had become a liability in his last few games with stupid discipline. Best is not as good as Flannery from touch but he is much improved. Mealumu and Moore are better than Flannery and Servat is probably the best hooker in the world, so I can't see how you can argue that an unfit Flannery is anywhere close to him. If Varley was anyway consistent from touch there wouldn't even be an argument for taking Flannery

The same could be easily said about Flannery. Best was by no means excellent in the 6N but, he did play very well against England like every other Irish player by Court though.

When both were vying for the Irish #2 jersey, Best was chosen above Flannery for his "leadership" and scrummaging ability. Flannery was much better in every other facet of the game. There is a reason why Flannery was a shoe-in to be the starting Lions hooker whilst Best was nowhere to be seen.

Varley can be like an extra backrow around the pitch. He is fantastic at forcing turnovers; when he is set over a player on the ground he is unmovable. BUT he often takes the ball on when a pass would be the best option and is totally unreliable from touch. Varley will be fortunate if he even starts for Munster at the weekend.

jolley123

val_jester wrote: »

I don't think he is anymore, he definitely was when he first burst on to the scene in 2006 but I think Best is better than him at the moment. Also if the type of game Ireland are aspiring to is the Leinster game plan Best is much more suited to it, he has beautiful hands and is well able to but people through gaps.

Flannery was leagues ahead of Best before his injury. He was a dynamic ball carrier like Cian Healy. I had no problems with him in the scrum, I had more of a problem with the tight-head beside him. Plus he was miles better than Best at the line-out. As a Leinster fan, if I had the choice between Best and Flannery, I would choose Flannery every-time.

CIARAN_BOYLE

val_jester wrote: »

You would hope that he is fully fit and starting by the time of the Australia match. I know its only the second match but with the warm up games he should hopefully be fully fit and ready to go. I don't think any of the other Irish players tackle as hard as him, he always seems to match to knock the player backwards on his own.

With SOB Wallace and Heaslip in the backrow I wouldn't guarantee Ferris a start. He'll start a couple of games and act as a impact subs in others if he is fit imo

val_jester

jolley123 wrote: »

Flannery was leagues ahead of Best before his injury. He was a dynamic ball carrier like Cian Healy. I had no problems with him in the scrum, I had more of a problem with the tight-head beside him. Plus he was miles better than Best at the line-out. As a Leinster fan, if I had the choice between Best and Flannery, I would choose Flannery every-time.

As an Ireland fan I would choose Best ahead of a Flannery, especially a Flannery who hasn't played much in two years. Flannery was never as dynamic a ball carrier as Healy, Cronin would be, and like Dan says before he got his latest injury he had become prone to scuttling sideways across the pitch. Best has had some bad days at the lineout but not every bad lineout is the hookers fault and he was secure in the six nations for the most part. Flannery is a better lineout thrower, Best is a better player.

val_jester

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

With SOB Wallace and Heaslip in the backrow I wouldn't guarantee Ferris a start. He'll start a couple of games and act as a impact subs in others if he is fit imo

Ferris will start instead of Wallace if fit imo, like i said his defence his excellent and the fact that he knocks players back makes it harder for them to get go forward ball. Wallace wasnt great for Munster against Quins and I think he is probably the best backrow sub.

jolley123

val_jester wrote: »

As an Ireland fan I would choose Best ahead of a Flannery, especially a Flannery who hasn't played much in two years. Flannery was never as dynamic a ball carrier as Healy, Cronin would be, and like Dan says before he got his latest injury he had become prone to scuttling sideways across the pitch. Best has had some bad days at the lineout but not every bad lineout is the hookers fault and he was secure in the six nations for the most part. Flannery is a better lineout thrower, Best is a better player.

If we are talking about now, then yeah, obviously you would take Best seeing as Flannery hasn't played any rugby. But IMO it's daft to say Best was better than Flannery when Flannery was fit. There's a reason why Flannery started for Ireland and there's a reason why he was picked for the Lions.

In regards to Sean Cronin, I don't think Cronin is any where near as dynamic as Healy. People just a assume that because of his pace. I can't see Cronin getting over 25-30 caps for Ireland. By the time he is ready to make the step up to International rugby, there'll be someone better. Like Mike Sherry, Richardt Strauus, or one of the young guys coming through (Niall Annett or David Doyle.)

val_jester

jolley123 wrote: »

If we are talking about now, then yeah, obviously you would take Best seeing as Flannery hasn't played any rugby. But IMO it's daft to say Best was better than Flannery when Flannery was fit. There's a reason why Flannery started for Ireland and there's a reason why he was picked for the Lions.

In regards to Sean Cronin, I don't think Cronin is any where near as dynamic as Healy. People just a assume that because of his pace. I can't see Cronin getting over 25-30 caps for Ireland. By the time he is ready to make the step up to International rugby, there'll be someone better. Like Mike Sherry, Richardt Strauus, or one of the young guys coming through (Niall Annett or David Doyle.)

I presumed we were talking about the world cup squad, Flannery at his best was superb but unfortunately that was a long time ago.

Cronin is a very dynamic player, he just has useless hands but he is well capable of mixing it in the tight as well as using his pace out wide. I like Sherry and know a lot of people who rate him quite highly but time will tell. Annett is a great thrower and a very good leader but I know people in Ulster have concerns over his size but any time ive seen him play for ireland, ulster or in the ail for Belfast Harlequins he has looked very good.
I'd like to think Strauus will never get an Irish cap but that's another matter altogether.

Podge_irl

Flannery of three years ago was a phenomenal player. However, even before his latest run of injuries he wasn't as good as he used to be. He might make it onto the plane if fit, but only because our options behind Best are all a bit poor in different areas.

rockman15

I literally lol'ed when that person mentioned mealamu, servat and Fla in the same sentence. both of those hookers are miles ahead from him.

Someone pointed out a key line there about Flannery being a liability. I tend to disagree. Its a trend that we observe more and more often with under pressure players. Flannery and Fitzgerald being the prime examples this season. They get a chance to start and dont live up to OUR (the fans, observers, commentators, media) expectations or try 50/50 things, that perhaps a more settled version of themselves wouldnt do. Ironically they only further hamper theiir own future prospects by trying the offload through the tackle or coming for a high ball from 20meters away. For these reasons I would be hesitant about bringing either Fitz or Flannery. Fitzgerald is saved by his defensive work, which as far as im concerned is unrivalled among NH wingers and exactlly what we need to beat Australia in the group at the least.

On the "trying too hard" thing Leamy is perhaps even more guilty. he's forever coming on and going in over the top or lying offside too long in attempt to slow the ball down.

jolley123

rockman15 wrote: »

Fitzgerald is saved by his defensive work, which as far as im concerned is unrivalled among NH wingers and exactlly what we need to beat Australia in the group at the least.

Definitely his strongest asset. He puts in a lot of big hits that can go un-noticed. His hit against Wales(can't remember who) was massive. That said, it's difficult to justify his inclusion. Earls, Bowe and Trimble are ahead of him in terms of form. It could even be argued that Horgan deserves to be ahead of him.

Blut2

ambid wrote: »

Yeah I read somewhere that Kidney's stand by players will have to following the same routine as the squad - so sleeping when it's night in NZ even though it'll be day time here. Poor sods!

I wonder if it could be arranged for our 5 backup plays to conveniently be on holiday in Australia at the time of the tournament. Would mean theyd only need a (relatively) short flight over to NZ and would already be adjusted to a similar time zone.

val_jester

rockman15 wrote: »

Someone pointed out a key line there about Flannery being a liability. I tend to disagree.

I think I'm the one who said this and I probably should have made it clearer, I was talking more about how in recent years he has tended to lose the plot a bit and do stupid things such as kicking the French winger in the 2010 six nations.

It is unfortunately a problem for Fitz, but I'd disagree when you say he is the best defensive wing we have I think Bowe and Trimble are capable and have defended better than Fitz this year and Earls defence is weaker than the three but not a major worry. Fitz pre-injury was superb but he justs needs to get his confidence back both in defence and attack, but the Irish press and fans are giving him a much harder time than he deserves he hasn't been as bad as he's made out to be, its just there are players in better form who can play in his position and Irish people seem unable to big up one player without criticising another.

WeeBushy

Blut2 wrote: »

I wonder if it could be arranged for our 5 backup plays to conveniently be on holiday in Australia at the time of the tournament. Would mean theyd only need a (relatively) short flight over to NZ and would already be adjusted to a similar time zone.

If they're going to be on holidays in the SH, they might as well be on holiday in the same country as the Irish squad.

danthefan

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

When both were vying for the Irish #2 jersey, Best was chosen above Flannery for his "leadership" and scrummaging ability. Flannery was much better in every other facet of the game. There is a reason why Flannery was a shoe-in to be the starting Lions hooker whilst Best was nowhere to be seen.

Yeah, a career threatening neck injury.

Saying Flannery is better in "every other facet of the game" is just rubbish, not exactly surprising rubbish from you though.

Jemo

I'd imagine that some of the lads would be going to it on holiday anyhow. But yeah they may as well go over if there is a gym/club they can train in. I assume that the IRB would be watching for players slipping into squads to train.

sock puppet

Blut2 wrote: »

I wonder if it could be arranged for our 5 backup plays to conveniently be on holiday in Australia at the time of the tournament. Would mean theyd only need a (relatively) short flight over to NZ and would already be adjusted to a similar time zone.

So you want them in Australia with no coaching and getting no gametime when they could be playing in the ML?

Jemo

sock puppet wrote: »

So you want them in Australia with no coaching and getting no gametime when they could be playing in the ML?

I had totally forgot about the Magners actually, will the likes of McFadden etc. who get gametime this summer come back to training late as per usual I wonder? I.E. rest after summer tour. But yeah, much better for them to get a good preseason and a match or two in before they are needed.

Cpt_Blackbeard

danthefan wrote: »

Yeah, a career threatening neck injury.

Saying Flannery is better in "every other facet of the game" is just rubbish, not exactly surprising rubbish from you though.

Ok, could you please in your infinite wisdom inform me where Best at his best is better than Flannery at his? (Other than "leadership" and supposed scrummaging)

Personally I think that is disgraceful that a player of Best's quality was ever picked over Flannery from 2006-2008.

danthefan

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Ok, could you please in your infinite wisdom inform me where Best at his best is better than Flannery at his? (Other than "leadership" and supposed scrummaging)

Personally I think that is disgraceful that a player of Best's quality was ever picked over Flannery from 2006-2008.

Course you do. You also think Barry Murphy is worth 30 Ireland caps. I really see no point in debating this with you, you're unbelievably biased.

Cpt_Blackbeard

danthefan wrote: »

Course you do. You also think Barry Murphy is worth 30 Ireland caps. I really see no point in debating this with you, you're unbelievably biased.

Still don't have an answer? :rolleyes:

I immediately admitted that 30 was too high, but there is no reason that he couldn't have have had ~15. He is extremely talented but had BOD ahead of him for Ireland and is always injured. He would have been the perfect option for lowly games in tours and such.

The 30 caps was also said without realising that players like Reddan, Wallace and Quinlan never reached 30 caps. To say that a player could have had 20caps for their country didn't seem like a compliment considering a 28 year old Rory Best has ~50caps.

val_jester

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Ok, could you please in your infinite wisdom inform me where Best at his best is better than Flannery at his? (Other than "leadership" and supposed scrummaging)

Personally I think that is disgraceful that a player of Best's quality was ever picked over Flannery from 2006-2008.

Best is a better scrummager and leader than Flannery I don't think there is much doubt over that. I'd also say that best is a better defender, better at the breakdown, stronger at carrying around the fringes and has much better hands than Flannery. He is also able to play heads up rugby and doesn't take contact as the first option. For the most part his darts have been good this season with the exception of the horror show against South Africa but the whole lineout was a shambles that day.