"Thug who attacked dying Pole was on bail" (75 previous convictions)

Tea drinker

A 21-year-old man with 75 previous convictions was out on bail when he attacked one of two Polish mechanics who were murdered by another man with blows to the head from a screwdriver.

Sean Keogh, a father of one, was sentenced to four years in prison yesterday for kicking Pawel Kalite in the head, seconds after the Polish man had been stabbed through the skull.
Mr Kalite and his flatmate Mariusz Szwajkos were murdered by David Curran (19), of Lissadel Green in Drimnagh, Dublin. He is now serving life for the double murder.
Earlier this month, a jury acquitted Keogh, of Vincent Street West in Inchicore, of murdering the two men on February 23, 2008 outside their home on Benbulben Road, Drimnagh.
Guilty
Keogh pleaded guilty to assault causing harm to Mr Kalite. The charge had been put to him just before the jury began its deliberations at the end of a three-week trial.
Yesterday, the Central Criminal Court heard that Keogh had 75 previous convictions.
Det Gda William Ryan said that on May 26 last year Keogh was sentenced to five years for two counts of endangerment.
He also received a five-year sentence for criminal damage, three years for the unauthorised taking of a vehicle and six months for driving without insurance, with his driving without a licence being taken into consideration.
He was banned from driving for seven years for dangerous driving. All sentences were concurrent, with the last two years suspended.
Det Gda Ryan explained that Keogh got bail on these charges on August 30, 2007 and was out of prison when he kicked a dying Pawel Kalite in the head.
Mr Justice Liam McKechnie said Keogh and others accompanied a screaming David Curran to the house where the two Poles lived and that Keogh knew Curran had a screwdriver.
The judge noted that after Keogh had seen David Curran stab Pawel Kalite, he delivered "a vicious kick" to the head.
"It showed a deep and sickening sense of personality to which society should not be exposed. On any level, it was pure thuggery.
"If he's capable of doing this sort of thing, what else is he capable of doing?"
He noted a number of factors put forward by the defence as mitigation, including the evidence by the partner and mother of Keogh's child, Sarah Adams, who told the court that she and their three-year-old daughter visited Keogh in jail each week.
"I wonder what regard he had for (the baby) then," the judge asked.
"I wonder why he wasn't at home then looking after his daughter of nine months. I suspect she is wondering the same."

Great that these guys are locked up, but why did it take so long? surely with 75 convictions the guy was a basket case not suited to normal life, and imho should never have been free when he was such a threat to taxpayers and their families.

75 convictions and on bail, at 21. how is that even possible?
So he must have commited hundreds of crimes to get that many where he was caught. At least if he was locked up he wouldn't have had a daughter he will never be able to care for as a man and father.



http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/thug-who-attacked-dying-pole-was-on-bail-2186636.html

pat58

once again irish justice at its best

Elevator

there's just not the room in prisons for crims, unfortunate fact

Cookie_Monster

Elevator wrote: »

there's just not the room in prisons for crims, unfortunate fact

if there's floorspace there room, its a prison not the Hilton.

IMO criminals forfeit their rights when they commit a crime and should be treated as such (once proven guilty obviously)

The cells should literally have as many bunks as can fit in them. They're in PRISON, it's not supposed to be comfortable.

SeanW

This is what happens when we have a justice system that's run by bleeding heart PC pinkos - those two Polish lads might be alive today if that piece of scum had been locked up and had the key thrown away at oh ... I don't know ... his 30th or 50th or even 74th conviction.

As if that's not bad enough, the girls who cooperated in the attack and conspired with the other attackers to provide false alibis, have had the DPP refuse to prosecute their cases. http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/kevin-myers-it-is-obscene-that-these-two-teenage-shethugs-are-free-2176098.html

What the hell is going on in this country?

Nijmegen

The joke of concurrent sentencing is seen here: He was sentenced to 13.5 years, but in reality only got a handful with a great part of it suspended.

Frankly, we don't need big prison buildings. We need to create camps in clearings, with two fences and a guard tower. In an overcorwded prison in the US I recall seeing a situation where they had excess prisoners in tents.

When asked if they got too hot or too cold in the summer and winter, the warden replied, "These are the same tents used by our troops in Afghanistan. If they're good enough for them, then they are good enough for these guys."

Too right.

Prison overcrowding should not be an issue. Hell, you have a captive workforce to build you new ones.

PandyAndy

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

if there's floorspace there room, its a prison not the Hilton.

IMO criminals forfeit their rights when they commit a crime and should be treated as such (once proven guilty obviously)

Yea I completely agree. The only facilities I'd give them is a bed, toliet and sink.

Tea drinker

I agree with the sentiments about the prisons. We must make cutbacks everywhere and there is no reason why prisons aren't at the forefront of that.

Sean W, the link you posted, that was a very disturbing read.
It makes my blood boil to be honest.

One witness described a scuffle between Pawel and a local teenage boy and how the girls attacked the Pole.
"The lad in the tracksuit, the two young girls and this older man, they were basically killing the bald chap (Pawel) on the ground," she said.
When the initial brawl was over, the two girls were left there with Pawel.
"One of the girls was carrying a bottle of vodka and the other had what appeared to be a bottle of wine."
As Pawel walked away, a witness said: "One of them gave him a clatter across the face, across the neck. He done nothing. He just crossed the road."
Another witness described the aftermath of this first serious attack. "I saw Pawel, and the two girls hitting him. I asked him if he is okay. He didn't say anything. He looked upset. I noticed a broken bottle of vodka on the footpath and Pawel had a big bump on his head."
Pawel had just minutes to live. Another witness then told of seeing Pawel (earlier) lying on the ground. "(He) picked himself up. He staggered towards the chipper."
Witness said the girls were screaming abuse at Pawel. The witness was so afraid at what he was seeing that he rang the gardai. "The bald guy was heading up the road and the girls were following him and still shouting abuse."
According to another witness, this abuse went on the lines of: "All Polish people are f****rs."
One of the girls then texted Curran four times to tell him of the affray. Ten minutes later, he arrived outside the house where the Poles lived. He drove a screwdriver into the heads of Mariusz Szwajkos and Pawel Kalite, killing both.
That night, he and one of the girls tried to concoct an alibi for them both. She later lied to gardai, denying that she and Curran had been in contact that evening.
In fact, there had been four phone calls and many texts. "Ha," chortled this comely maiden, "I just reading what it says on the news. Ha. **** xxxx." Later she texted: "Ha ha but like I can't believe it. . . Mad night xxxxx."
Later still, she texted: "Do you know what I was thinking, we could say that you and me was only in babysitting cos you and me are the only ones who don't have an alibi."
THIS foul young woman has got away with all her crimes: she participated in a violent attack on an immigrant, she was party to racist abuse and she attempted to pervert the course of justice. And like her similarly complicit girl-friend, she has walked free.

walshb

More disturbing is that the filthy scum girls got away scott free.

BTW, it's the ****ing judges that need locking up, handing down
these disgusting lenient sentences.

MagicSean

Unfortunately if you cut prisoner facilities you get amnesty up your ass. And nobody seems to want to stand up to that crowd. Bring back hard labour I say.

Overheal

Maybe if you didnt incarcerate people for buying a quarter-bag of weed, you might have the space for Serial-Killers.

MagicSean

Overheal wrote: »

Maybe if you didnt incarcerate people for buying a quarter-bag of weed, you might have the space for Serial-Killers.

Who me? I've never incarcerated anyone. Never heard of a prison sentence for buying a small amount of weed. Unless you have a lot of previous and get caught all the time.

Jonny7

I don't understand why the concept of having lots of tiny separated cells in a prison wouldn't work?

Keep it as a prison within a prison. They reoffend, automatic 1 year solitary with just books for company. They don't do their knitting course, bang solitary. They decide to kick someone's head in on the outside? 3 strikes, bang automatic solitary 5 years.

We aren't Sweden, our indigenous scum are really quite scary. We need tough laws for them. In its current state, Irish prison is just like funderland university for most of these guys.

AlekSmart

Maybe if you didnt incarcerate people for buying a quarter-bag of weed, you might have the space for Serial-Killers.

Perhaps/Perhaps Not Overheal but not in any way pertinent to this case which really does reach into our native "Heart of Darkness" in terms of what our society appears prepared to tolerate and even encourage.

This quoted account goes way beyond the boundaries of acceptable behaviour in any society being portrayed as modern,developed or refined,instead it portrays all too accurately what is the norm throughout this land in 2010.

I believe it should be stickied someplace and constantly reverted to in order to prevent us from Airbrushing the Execution of two innocent men from our collective memory ?

One witness described a scuffle between Pawel and a local teenage boy and how the girls attacked the Pole.
"The lad in the tracksuit, the two young girls and this older man, they were basically killing the bald chap (Pawel) on the ground," she said.
When the initial brawl was over, the two girls were left there with Pawel.
"One of the girls was carrying a bottle of vodka and the other had what appeared to be a bottle of wine."
As Pawel walked away, a witness said: "One of them gave him a clatter across the face, across the neck. He done nothing. He just crossed the road."
Another witness described the aftermath of this first serious attack. "I saw Pawel, and the two girls hitting him. I asked him if he is okay. He didn't say anything. He looked upset. I noticed a broken bottle of vodka on the footpath and Pawel had a big bump on his head."
Pawel had just minutes to live. Another witness then told of seeing Pawel (earlier) lying on the ground. "(He) picked himself up. He staggered towards the chipper."
Witness said the girls were screaming abuse at Pawel. The witness was so afraid at what he was seeing that he rang the gardai. "The bald guy was heading up the road and the girls were following him and still shouting abuse."
According to another witness, this abuse went on the lines of: "All Polish people are f****rs."
One of the girls then texted Curran four times to tell him of the affray. Ten minutes later, he arrived outside the house where the Poles lived. He drove a screwdriver into the heads of Mariusz Szwajkos and Pawel Kalite, killing both.
That night, he and one of the girls tried to concoct an alibi for them both. She later lied to gardai, denying that she and Curran had been in contact that evening.
In fact, there had been four phone calls and many texts. "Ha," chortled this comely maiden, "I just reading what it says on the news. Ha. **** xxxx." Later she texted: "Ha ha but like I can't believe it. . . Mad night xxxxx."
Later still, she texted: "Do you know what I was thinking, we could say that you and me was only in babysitting cos you and me are the only ones who don't have an alibi."
THIS foul young woman has got away with all her crimes: she participated in a violent attack on an immigrant, she was party to racist abuse and she attempted to pervert the course of justice. And like her similarly complicit girl-friend, she has walked free.

PARKHEAD67

Tea drinker wrote: »

Great that these guys are locked up, but why did it take so long? surely with 75 convictions the guy was a basket case not suited to normal life, and imho should never have been free when he was such a threat to taxpayers and their families.

75 convictions and on bail, at 21. how is that even possible?
So he must have commited hundreds of crimes to get that many where he was caught. At least if he was locked up he wouldn't have had a daughter he will never be able to care for as a man and father.



http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/thug-who-attacked-dying-pole-was-on-bail-2186636.html

He must have got himself a little conviction every second week. What a scumbag.Only in Ireland would ****e like this happen.If it was in America this wonderful individual would never see freedom again. Shocking stuff

AlekSmart

Frankly, we don't need big prison buildings. We need to create camps in clearings, with two fences and a guard tower. In an overcorwded prison in the US I recall seeing a situation where they had excess prisoners in tents.

Nijmegen,I think this may be the facility you`re referring to......

http://www.mcso.org/index.php?a=GetModule&mn=Contact_Us&p=tentcity

Not to everybody`s taste for sure,but this Gent has one of the longest running careers in his chosen field ( ).

PARKHEAD67

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

if there's floorspace there room, its a prison not the Hilton.

IMO criminals forfeit their rights when they commit a crime and should be treated as such (once proven guilty obviously)

Do it South America style. Throw about 30 of em in 1 room and let em fend for themselves. Poisonous bastards

JimiTime

Just to let you know, 'convictions' doesn't mean 75 different events. 1 Burglary can involve several convictions. A conviction for 'breaking and entering', 'Burglary', 'destruction of property' etc.

Still though, its awful. People like that should never be free. I'd actually say the states negligence in relation to Justice and protecting its citizens means that they take some sizable blame for the death of those two poor lads IMO.

The only theory that makes sense to me in relation to the justice system, is that for some reason, they DON'T WANT to sort things out.

I will ALWAYS want a justice system with mercy as part of its core. However, if someone is convicted for a third time, even for what you'd class 'a small crime'. I'd come down so hard on them that they would NEVER take a bravado approach if a Garda is called. Give me a few corrupt Gardaí abusing their power over scum investations in all our towns and cities. We need the system to grow some balls, as it seems completely emasculated.

Gunmonkey

The problem seems to be they dont want to put them in prison as its already seriously overcrowded. We should be looking to build a new large prison for these lot, would have been a great part of the decetralisation programme. Build a big place in the middle of nowhere in Mayo or Donegal, can bet the families of the scum sent there wouldnt travel that far to chuck their daily dose of whatever over the wall.

sceptre

Thread title amended for accuracy.

/mod

johnnyskeleton

walshb wrote: »

More disturbing is that the filthy scum girls got away scott free.

BTW, it's the ****ing judges that need locking up, handing down
these disgusting lenient sentences.

Four and a half years from a maximum of 5, on a guilty plea is lenient?

It really would be no harm if you knew a bit more about law before trotting out these arguments bout judges need to be locked up etc. Or do you think that judges should exceed the law?

Pittens

It's a maximum of 5 years for killing someone?

the_syco

Elevator wrote: »

there's just not the room in prisons for crims, unfortunate fact

Aye. There is only room for people who haven't paid their fines. No room for crim's that hurt, maim, or kill people.

Turner

People just dont get fines for no reason.

People get fines for being convicted of assault, criminal damage, burglary and road traffic offences, to name a few.

When you get a fine you are given an option. For Eg. Fine of €1000, 3 months to pay or 10 days in prison in default.

Most people now prefer to spend time in prison than pay the fines. Once you enter the gates of prison your fine is wiped out.

If you are given 10 days in prison you will most likely be released after 1 or 2 days so its an easier option than working and paying for your fine. Especially if you are a repeat offender.

75 convictions is low. There are many people going around with 300+ convictions.

Amhran Nua

Overheal wrote: »

Maybe if you didnt incarcerate people for buying a quarter-bag of weed, you might have the space for Serial-Killers.

Generally speaking the prison for low level drugs possession problem isn't half as bad in Ireland as in the US, we don't have the "war on drugs" here.

However, the Irish police, An Garda Siochana, distinguish between possession for personal use and possession for sale or supply. Possession of cannabis or cannabis resin is treated less severely than other drugs. The punishment for the first and second conviction of cannabis possession is a fine and after the third conviction, a fine and up to three years in prison. The penalties for possession or trafficking of hard drugs are stiffer.

I'd still be in favour of looking at decriminalisation (not legalisation), similar to Portugal.

pat58

We have a major problem in Ireland ,So many crims and no where to put them,instead we deside to lock up people that cant afford to pay fines,tax,maintance and such like:mad:maybe its just me but i think the justice system is flawed.

johnnyskeleton

Pittens wrote: »

It's a maximum of 5 years for killing someone?

No, for section 3 assault causing harm

He was acquitted of murder and manslaughter by the jury, so please be carefull about what you say.

djpbarry

PARKHEAD67 wrote: »

Do it South America style. Throw about 30 of em in 1 room and let em fend for themselves. Poisonous bastards

Irrespective of the crime? To hell with rehabilitation, eh?

Seems to be a fair bit of respect for the US justice system being bandied about. Let's just conveniently ignore the fact that the USA is one of the most violent societies in the world.

Cookie_Monster

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Four and a half years from a maximum of 5, on a guilty plea is lenient?

It really would be no harm if you knew a bit more about law before trotting out these arguments bout judges need to be locked up etc. Or do you think that judges should exceed the law?

That was the other guy and that was lenient.
The girls got nothing, not even a charge iirc :mad:

AlekSmart

That was the other guy and that was lenient.
The girls got nothing, not even a charge iirc

Cookie_Monster,to be fair to Mr Skeleton (The hint is in his sig ) he is arguing the points from an informed legal position.

He represents,it would appear,a viewpoint held by many within the judicial administration,that those of us who express a sense of misgiving over verdicts such as the Kalite/Swjaikos executions (In my opinion these men were hunted down and executed in a manner which we need to ensure is never forgotten) are simply ill-informed or reactionary in their attitude.

I respect Mr Skeleton`s depth of legal knowledge and the advantage it provides him when attempting to rationalize the sentencing procedure.

He also,in common with many of those who inhabit the Politico/Legal zone,has little time for so called sensationalist reporting by the media,which he feels tends to incite the lower-orders into making wild accusations and recriminatory statements against the Judiciary and Courts Process.

This particular case was I felt reported upon in avery factual manner by the Media with little sensationalizing or non-factual reportage.

How,I wonder would it be possible to "sensationalize" the details of the last hour of those men`s lives ?

Those details,particularly the eye-witness accounts of the pursuit and the pathologists evidence are as chilling an account of pure evil as one will read anywhere.

Perhaps of even more awful significance,however,are the accounts of the general lifestyle of the youthful members of the pack which pursued these men.

Teenage thugs,already well-known to the Authorities,living a wild destructive existance,abusing whatever substances they could obtain and always at the ready to attack,injure or eliminate anything or anybody they regarded as different.

Even today as a passenger on the Luas Red Line if you glance up to the Canal Lock gates as you pass Blackhorse stop,I`ll wager you will see similar groupings...disadvantaged forgotten youths etc etc,yet with sufficent means available to do their daily "deals" for whatever substance is on offer and equal funding to possess gold soverign rings and a skip full of mobile communications technology....Obviously well disadvantaged.

Its all so black and white really...The executed Polish men,qualified and using their time and skills to the benefit of Irish society and their youthful executioners,with little time or inclination available for such exotic pursuits as work in between the highs and lows of their all too popular lifestyle.

He was acquitted of murder and manslaughter by the jury, so please be carefull about what you say.

However,as Mr Skeleton advises,in modern Ireland those who do feel uncomfortable at the direction our country is being pushed in are probably best being "careful" or simply saying nothing ?

SeanW

djpbarry wrote: »

Irrespective of the crime? To hell with rehabilitation, eh?

Not irrespective of the crime, and within reason, yes, damn rehabilitation for scumbags who are clearly beyond rehabilitation.

We need to realise that some people are just no good - and it's partly because we failed to recognise this that those two Polish men died brutal, senseless and needless deaths.

I am in favour of something like a "3 strikes" rule - albeit it could be more lenient to something like 20 to make sure there's no possibility of a non-scumbag being caught up in it - to basically remove incorrigable offenders from civilisation - permanently. The laws pertaining to murder MUST IMHO now be retooled so that everyone involved in a murder like this gets an automatic life sentence.

johnnyskeleton

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

That was the other guy and that was lenient.
The girls got nothing, not even a charge iirc :mad:

No, that was the guy the OP was talking about:

A 21-year-old man with 75 previous convictions was out on bail when he attacked one of two Polish mechanics who were murdered by another man with blows to the head from a screwdriver.

Sean Keogh, a father of one, was sentenced to four years in prison yesterday for kicking Pawel Kalite in the head, seconds after the Polish man had been stabbed through the skull.

1)The other guy got life, which is the maxmium setnence that ANY judge in Ireland can pass and is the mandatory sentence for murder.

2)The girls weren't even charged.

3)For the third time, the maximum sentence for section 3 assault is 5 years, of which the judge imposed 4 and a half years with the last 6 months suspended on a guilty plea.

I fail to see how any of the above is in any way a failing of a judge, in that he:
1) imposed the mandatory maximum penalty;
2) has no power to prosecute anybody; and
3) imposed 54 months out of a maximum of 60 months, which takes into account the guilty plea.

Ok, he could have imposed 5 years, but is the difference between 4.5 and 5 years the only reason for complaint in this thread? Because other than that, I can't see what else the judge could have done.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Cookie_Monster,to be fair to Mr Skeleton (The hint is in his sig ) he is arguing the points from an informed legal position.

I take it you've never seen "In the Heat of the Night" then?

AlekSmart wrote: »

He represents,it would appear,a viewpoint held by many within the judicial administration,that those of us who express a sense of misgiving over verdicts such as the Kalite/Swjaikos executions (In my opinion these men were hunted down and executed in a manner which we need to ensure is never forgotten) are simply ill-informed or reactionary in their attitude.

Complete strawman argument and you know it. Don't put words in my mouth. The law is the law. You can't ignore it. If you have specific misgivings about a certain point let's hear it. But to blame the judge for something beyond his control is very unhelpful. Plus, your emotive language does nothing to hide the fact that you are not addressing the issues.

AlekSmart wrote: »

He also,in common with many of those who inhabit the Politico/Legal zone,has little time for so called sensationalist reporting by the media,which he feels tends to incite the lower-orders into making wild accusations and recriminatory statements against the Judiciary and Courts Process.

Not lower-orders (by the by, what a vile phrase, I don't know what kind of background you come from but don't patronise people on a class basis), but people who post on boards who ignore the facts and stick to their assertions of injustice, often using the victims of crime as a political football and unable to see the rationale behind a decision through their crocodile tears. Nothing to do with class, all to do with ability to debate.

AlekSmart wrote: »

This particular case was I felt reported upon in avery factual manner by the Media with little sensationalizing or non-factual reportage.

Straw man argument again. I never criticised that report. I do however criticise those who suggest, as walshb suggests, that the judges are to blame. They are the ones being sensationalist.

AlekSmart wrote: »

However,as Mr Skeleton advises,in modern Ireland those who do feel uncomfortable at the direction our country is being pushed in are probably best being "careful" or simply saying nothing ?

Those who respect DeVore's site and the laws of Ireland should be careful stating someone did a criminal act which they were acquitted of. It's called defamation.

A Country Voice

I'm nice and calm while typing this. (just incase someone thinks I've just been robbed or beaten up and I'm over-excited).

So, Is it time to bring back the death penalty?
Seriously now, i'm not trying to provoke a response from some hippy/civil rights activist/amnesty badge wearing type.

Lets think about the facts.

Theres an awful lot of people out there who don't care about the law, The people who try very hard to enforce it, the justice system that trys very hard to deal with the consequences of their actions, and all the side issues of the health services, fire brigade, local authoritys, neighbours, local communities, schools, society at large.

There doesn't seem to be room for these people in prisons currently.
We need solutions then don't we?
Here's what I've been thinking.....
Now I don't often agree with the U.S. way of doing things, but if you get caught doing something illegal over there it has serious consequences for you.
In a lot of states, for the more minor to middle ground offences you will do hard time. By hard time I mean you will work while you are not at liberty. Your work is often for the common good. Working on roads and public projects etc.
And yes, for the serious offences you can be put to death in a lot of states.
Serious and repeated offences have the deterrent of the possibility that if you are caught you might actually die.
I would see nothing wrong with bringing in a system in this country where for murder, you actually serve a life sentence. You don't get out again full stop. For multiple or repeated serious offences, ie multiple rapes, multiple murders, multiple armed robberies you would be put to death.
As stated earlier, there are people walking around this country as free as the decent god fearing people, the only difference being that some of the people at large have actually got hundreds of criminal convictions. My limit would be 25. Once you are found guilty of your 25th criminal offence you are taken hence to the place of execution and put to death. End of story.
Any guy with half a brain would upon reaching 20-24 convictions promptly leave the country. I think it would be a great idea.
Lesser numbers of convictions could be dealt with in the "hard labour" way.
I'm sure the guys who currently go on their "holidays" for a stretch, would think again if they were going to be breaking rocks or saving turf every day for 2, 3, 4, or 5 years instead.
I know some people won't like these ideas. I suppose they're ideas that have been touted before too, but I think we're getting close to a tipping point in this country.

A Country Voice

loldog

A Country Voice wrote: »

I'm nice and calm while typing this. (just incase someone thinks I've just been robbed or beaten up and I'm over-excited).

So, Is it time to bring back the death penalty?

No. The death penalty is barbarous. No state should ever have the power to execute its citizens. It's ineffective as a deterrent anyway, just look at the US.

I'd be well in favour of convicted murderers being detained for the rest of their natural lives (i.e. life means life), but no, the State should have no right to be killing anyone.

.

djpbarry

SeanW wrote: »

The laws pertaining to murder MUST IMHO now be retooled so that everyone involved in a murder like this gets an automatic life sentence.

Is that not already the case? I was of the impression that murder carries an automatic life sentence?

djpbarry

A Country Voice wrote: »

So, Is it time to bring back the death penalty?
Seriously now, i'm not trying to provoke a response from some hippy/civil rights activist/amnesty badge wearing type.

So you’re not interested in hearing from anyone who might disagree with you?

A Country Voice wrote: »

There doesn't seem to be room for these people in prisons currently.
We need solutions then don't we?

How about building more prisons? It’s a pretty radical idea, I know.

A Country Voice wrote: »

Now I don't often agree with the U.S. way of doing things, but if you get caught doing something illegal over there it has serious consequences for you.

Indeed. But as I said already, American society is one of the most violent in the world, so something is quite clearly not working.

A Country Voice wrote: »

Serious and repeated offences have the deterrent of the possibility that if you are caught you might actually die.

And yet violent crime is rife in the US – capital punishment doesn’t seem to be much of a deterrent, does it?

A Country Voice wrote: »

Once you are found guilty of your 25th criminal offence you are taken hence to the place of execution and put to death. End of story.

So someone can be put to death for not paying 25 parking tickets (or some other minor indiscretion)?

A Country Voice wrote: »

Any guy with half a brain would upon reaching 20-24 convictions promptly leave the country.

Suppose every other country in Europe adopts a similar approach? We all export our problem citizens to one another? That’s not really dealing with the problem in a meaningful manner, is it?

Nijmegen

I'd be in favour of the death penalty, if it worked.

Sadly, it does not.

I'd rather these people be given punishment that lasts a lifetime, not 5 years. I want that punishment to be harsh, and I want all crimes to be punished, no matter how many tent city's we need.

I believe that in doing so, one can help bridge the gap between law and justice. In this case, legally there was a victory, but justice was a third victim.

A Country Voice

djpbarry wrote: »

So you’re not interested in hearing from anyone who might disagree with you?
How about building more prisons? It’s a pretty radical idea, I know.
Indeed. But as I said already, American society is one of the most violent in the world, so something is quite clearly not working.
And yet violent crime is rife in the US – capital punishment doesn’t seem to be much of a deterrent, does it?
So someone can be put to death for not paying 25 parking tickets (or some other minor indiscretion)?
Suppose every other country in Europe adopts a similar approach? We all export our problem citizens to one another? That’s not really dealing with the problem in a meaningful manner, is it?

Hi djpbarry, Firstly, I suppose when I said I didn't want to provoke a response, I probably didn't phrase that very well. What I meant was an over the top emotional response from someone who isn't interested in the practicalities of dealing with the problems in the criminal justice system if it conflicts with some principle or other that they have. I'm quite happy to calmly debate the matter with anyone who doesn't agree with my opinions.

In relation to building more prisons, I wonder where do we draw the line at when it comes to building what are costly hotels in effect for people who work and pay taxes to fund the lifestyle of the people who don't work and pay taxes and rob or injure the people that do. I like the "work camp" idea mentioned by another poster. No luxuries there I'd say in a -14 frost like we had last winter. In essence crime shouldn't pay. There should be a deterrent. I feel that hard work and lack of luxury might constitute a deterrent for a lot of the criminals that we need to deal with.
In relation to copying exactly what the americans do, I wouldn't.
My idea would be that we pick the best parts of their system that actually work and try them out here. If it doesn't work we can always change to something else.
Maybe the U.S. was a bad example. Other countries that have the death penalty like Singapore are virtually crime free. I've been there, and I've never felt as safe anywhere, never seen such a law abiding population, even down to minor things like littering!!!
I did mention my 25 conviction rule being for serious crimes. Criminal offences, not civil offences. I think I mentioned multiple murders, multiple rapes, and multiple armed robberies as examples. I'm not saying what should or could be on the list, I'm not a legal expert by any means. The list would have to be teased out. I wouldn't see parking infringements being on the list though.
In relation to "exporting" our "problem" to some other E.U. country. We already have open borders with the rest of the E.U.
A lot of our more famous gangsters are living it up in spain, the netherlands and elsewhere. I have also heard of some british criminals setting up residence here, (in particular sex offenders), which means the criminals travel already. We wouldn't be exporting a problem, its up to each citizen to behave. If they don't they must face the consequences or else flee. Its up to them. They have a choice. Thats the main thing, choice.
If you rob a bank, you choose to rob it and break the law, nobody forced you. Nobody robs a bank to buy food, or pay a mortgage. If you choose to break the law there should be serious consequences.

Thanks for replying
I do like a debate.
A Country Voice

donaghs

djpbarry wrote: »

Is that not already the case? I was of the impression that murder carries an automatic life sentence?

It think he means something closer to a real life sentence (i.e. spending your life in jail beacuse you deliberately set out to kill someone). Not playing semantics with legal definitions.

For various reasons not all murderers are actually convicted of murder. In the case of the Polish guys, I think most people would agree that those who attacked them the second time were involved in a murder.

The courts may say one thing, but your own eyes and ears can tell a different story.

And those actually convicted of murder typically serve around 12 years. Which is a long way from what a "life sentence" would appear to mean?

bigbadbear

I would probably be slightly in favour of the death penalty myself. However anyone who believes it's a deterrent is sadly mistaken. Prison to certain people is not a deterrent, ever. It doesn't even matter whether they'll be in solitary for a year. They will still commit crime. The cost of €100,000 a year to keep a criminal locked up is a good incentive to re-introduce the death penalty. If you are clearly never going to reform your ways and will always be a danger to society then a nice painless death would be great for these people. I think it should be debated as there are clear advantages and disadvantages. One disadvantage might be that if you knew you were going to be executed if you were caught for something you did then you would probably do ANYTHING to get away. I certainly wouldn't like to be near one of these people!

Now, for the people who believe in inflicting great pain or discomfort upon our criminals please consider the following: If someone who is already a violent criminal and goes to jail and is subjected to bad conditions like overcrowding/ painful labour/etc don't you think they will come out of prison more sour against society and maybe more psychotic. I do think they should have to do some sort of work but only for the monetary gain for the state.

Can somebody tell me why the Keogh had all his sentences running concurrently and why he had 2 years suspended? Why do they suspend sentences for these repeat offenders (apart from guilty pleas)

Also, I am a believer that getting out of prison early 'on good behaviour' is ridiculous. It should be that you are kept longer in prison if you don't behave.

donaghs

I'm generally against the death penalty. But it has one clear deterrant value in that it can prevent multiple murders. Here's a good example:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2000/1205/roscommon.html

Nijmegen

bigbadbear wrote: »

I would probably be slightly in favour of the death penalty myself. However anyone who believes it's a deterrent is sadly mistaken. Prison to certain people is not a deterrent, ever. It doesn't even matter whether they'll be in solitary for a year. They will still commit crime. The cost of €100,000 a year to keep a criminal locked up is a good incentive to re-introduce the death penalty.

I disagree with this logic, given that one can reduce the cost of holding prisoners substantially from this level.

My biggest problem with the death penalty is that it does take the lives of people are, it is later discovered, innocent. I believe the last woman to be hung in Britain turned out to have been innocent. What if they still had hanging at the time of the Guildford and Manchester bombings? Etc.

johnnyskeleton

A Country Voice wrote: »

In relation to building more prisons, I wonder where do we draw the line at when it comes to building what are costly hotels in effect for people who work and pay taxes to fund the lifestyle of the people who don't work and pay taxes and rob or injure the people that do.

Funny you should mention hotels as there are a number of useless hotels going into NAMA.

Tea drinker

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Funny you should mention hotels as there are a number of useless hotels going into NAMA.

Very true, and this is what happens if we are not vigilant with our politicians. But that's a whole other thread ;-)
IMHO this young chap should have got life too for his part in the assault leading to death.
We need to carefully balance the rights of offenders to have a try again at getting it right in society, with the rights of their potential or even likely future victims.
To have serial offenders arbitrarily released to commit further offences is tantamount to an unprovoked attack on his next victim, with the legal system as an accomplice.
The only way to avoid this is harsh sentences. These may not be as expensive to impose when you consider the purely monetary costs of having scum on the streets. Things like Garda resources, court time and costs, insurance costs, personal injury claims, dole etc. Add in the human cost and I'm sure the benefit to society wins it out. Removing troublemaking elements from society will have apositive and stabilising effect for communities and could help keep troubled youngsters from being involved with criminals.

caseyann

But have to take into account he is only a young lad,and he indeed i would say was not intending to murder anyone.

AlekSmart

But have to take into account he is only a young lad,and he indeed i would say was not intending to murder anyone.

Caseyann,I can appreciate your desire to see a positive element in all of this sad spectacle,however at 21 years of age and with some serious violence related offences under his belt,this was no ordinary "young-lad" out for a bit of harmless craic.

Yesterday, the Central Criminal Court heard that Keogh had 75 previous convictions.

Det Gda William Ryan said that on May 26 last year Keogh was sentenced to five years for two counts of endangerment.

He also received a five-year sentence for criminal damage, three years for the unauthorised taking of a vehicle and six months for driving without insurance,with his driving without a licence being taken into consideration.

He was banned from driving for seven years for dangerous driving. All sentences were concurrent, with the last two years suspended.

Det Gda Ryan explained that Keogh got bail on these charges on August 30, 2007 and was out of prison when he kicked a dying Pawel Kalite in the head.

One really does have to underline the views of Justice McKechnie and particularly the final sentance....

Mr Justice Liam McKechnie said Keogh and others accompanied a screaming David Curran to the house where the two Poles lived and that Keogh knew Curran had a screwdriver.

The judge noted that after Keogh had seen David Curran stab Pawel Kalite, he delivered "a vicious kick" to the head.

"It showed a deep and sickening sense of personality to which society should not be exposed. On any level, it was pure thuggery.

"If he's capable of doing this sort of thing,what else is he capable of doing?"

I cannot accept that watching an associate stick a screwdriver through another man`s skull and then kicking that victim in the head can demonstrate any intent other than to deprive that victim of his senses,and most likely life itself,as happened here.

Liam Byrne

caseyann wrote: »

But have to take into account he is only a young lad,and he indeed i would say was not intending to murder anyone.

Did you ask him ?

Because ramming a screwdriver through the side of someone's head would certainly seem to contradict that statement.

As a matter of interest, what would you think he was "intending" ?

And with 75 previous convictions, the "out-of-character, one-off madness" cannot be applied (regardless of a side-debate of whether it ever should).

irishh_bob

caseyann wrote: »

But have to take into account he is only a young lad,and he indeed i would say was not intending to murder anyone.

most idiotic wooly liberal post i think ive ever read on boards

Laminations

Johnnyskeleton can I ask you if you think the sentence was fitting (not in a legal sense i.e. It was almost the max allowed) but does 4.5 years fit the crime? And although the judge may be limited by maximum sentences here, how do you explain the doling out of concurrent sentences or the fact that some judge, on this scums 75th conviction, thought it appropriate to let this guy out on bail? Bail is a sign of judgement that the offender is not a danger to society. The amount of crimes committed on bail shows very poor judgement from our judiciary, a judiciary that are accountable to no one. At least we can and will fire the minister come next election

FTA69

A Country Voice wrote: »

In relation to building more prisons, I wonder where do we draw the line at when it comes to building what are costly hotels in effect

Hotels? I stayed in a hotel once and unlike Mountjoy I wasn't put into a vermin-invested, 2-person room with a floor-mattress for a bed and 4 heroin addicts as room mates with one bucket between us to sh*t and p*ss in.

Prisons in Ireland are some of the most horrible in Europe, way worse in fact although perhaps some of the ones in Spain would give them a run for their money. Usually the people banging on about "holiday camps" have never been to a prison, nor do they know anyone who has been in one.