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Christianity Forum

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    #62
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Wicknight wrote: »
    I agree, which is why I'm suggesting a sub forum for discussion of Christian topics that don't fall into the realm of Christians discussion things or non-Christians looking for information from Christians.

    Christian topics that don't fall into the realm of Christians discussing Christianity - A&A, seeing as how the majority of these types of posts at present amount to nothing other than an attempt to show how Christianity is rubbish and Christians are wrong.

    Non-Christians looking for info from Christians - Christianity forum. No issue.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    I'm not really following the objection here.

    That any such sub-forum division would actually be adhered to in practice


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    #63
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    prinz wrote: »
    Christian topics that don't fall into the realm of Christians discussing Christianity - A&A, seeing as how the majority of these types of posts at present amount to nothing other than an attempt to show how Christianity is rubbish and Christians are wrong.

    Non-Christians looking for info from Christians - Christianity forum. No issue.

    That is just silly.

    Firstly the Christian forum is not the Ask a Christian a Question forum.

    Secondly why would, say a Muslim discuss why an issue they have with Christianity in the Atheism forum? Or even the Islam forum (where Christians would not be able to post responses). Do you really want people discussing Christianity in other forums that you don't know about or can't respond to defend.

    Judging by how much you guys spend posting in these "troll" threads I'm guessing the answer is no.
    prinz wrote: »
    That any such sub-forum division would actually be adhered to in practice

    The Christian Only response is adhered to in most cases and there is very little arguing when the mod moves or deletes posts as it is quite clear.

    I've no reason to think that the sub-forum would be ignored. And at the moment there is nothing, all these posts end up in the main forum, much to the annoyance (faux or otherwise) of the regular Christians.


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    #64
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Wicknight wrote: »
    That is just silly.
    Firstly the Christian forum is not the Ask a Christian a Question forum.

    Neither is it a Why Atheism Is Right forum, which it threads often boil down to.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    Secondly why would a Muslim discuss why an issue they have with Christianity in the Atheism forum?

    :confused: See above. I said anyone with a genuine topic for discussion etc should be welcome to post here.
    Non-Christians looking for info from Christians - Christianity forum. No issue.

    However if that poster was actually posting 'issues with Christianity' from the point of view of explaining why Islam is so much better and Christians are all wrong, over and over on thread after thread then yeah that person would be obviously better off posting somewhere else, like the Islam forum.


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    #65
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    One of the problems here is that a minority viewpoint that interacts with Christianity to a small extent (atheism) ends up hijacking many otherwise useful threads.

    Let's use our soccer analogy again. A thread debating whether soccer is stupid or not probably wouldn't be tolerated in that forum anyway. But such a thread would be preferable to someone putting 'Soccer is stupid' posts into every thread.

    For example, a thread about the offside law. Someone posts, "The offside law makes no sense. This is why I think soccer is stupid." The same thing happens in a thread about the FA Cup final, in a thread about whether Fabregas will go to Barcelona or not, in a thread about the Championship play-off second leg.

    Most Christians go through the day, meet other Christians, discuss issues relating to our faith etc. without ever thinking of atheism for a single moment. In the list of interesting subjects for Christians atheism is well down the list. Yet this forum has, for a long time now, been continually hijacked so that more threads end up discussing atheism than anything else. And that, to be honest, stifles discussion and is the reason why many Christian posters (of various stripes and denominations) don't bother with this forum.

    If this intrusive behaviour continues it might be necessary to put all atheism-related posts into one mega thread - just as we've done with Creationism and Clerical Child Abuse. That way anyone who wants to discuss such issues can do so, but the rest of the posters can get on with discussing issues that are more important to them.


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    #66
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Do you really want people discussing Christianity in other forums that you don't know about or can't respond to defend..

    Why not, tbh that wouldn't bother me in the slightest. I don't come here to 'defend' Christianity as it is.


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    #67
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    PDN wrote: »
    Actually, any time people have raised this issue in the Help Desk the Admins have expressed their view that the purpose of the Christianity Forum is to provide a safe place for the Christian Community to discuss issues of mutual interest.

    Indeed, the Admins have, much more strongly than Fanny Cradock or myself, stated that this forum is primarily a forum for Christians.
    Primarily? So what is it's secondary function?

    MrP


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    #68
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    PDN wrote: »
    Yet this forum has, for a long time now, been continually hijacked so that more threads end up discussing atheism than anything else.

    Simply because a poster "hijacks" a thread doesn't mean anyone is forced to debate with them and keep the new discussion going. Despite continuous protests about how disruptive such discussion is there has never been a shortage of Christian posters lining up to debate with such people.

    Again this seems a perfect argument for a sub-forum for that sort of debate that you would view as disruptive to the main forum. Anyone who wants to join in (and again there never seems a shortage of Christian posters prepared to do so) can but anyone who doesn't peak their head around the corner into the forum would be blissfully unaware of such discussion/distractions.

    The main Christian forum would essentially be a Christian Spirited Only thread by default, with all the tumble weed that involves :pac:


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    #69
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    prinz wrote: »
    Why not, tbh that wouldn't bother me in the slightest. I don't come here to 'defend' Christianity as it is.

    You seem to spend a lot of time posting in "troll" threads, as to your colleges.


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    #70
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Wicknight wrote: »
    You seem to spend a lot of time posting in "troll" threads, as to your colleges.

    Actually I don't. There are very few troll threads as these are closed quite quickly.

    It is usually potentially very interesting threads that are ruined by people posting nonsense. When it gets to the stage as it inevitably does of not being about Christianity any more in any shape or form I tend to ignore it from then on. I have actually intentionally stayed away from a lot of threads recently, haven't posted much on this forum for the last few weeks.


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    #71
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    prinz wrote: »
    Actually I don't. There are very few troll threads as these are closed quite quickly.

    It is usually potentially very interesting threads that are ruined by people posting nonsense. When it gets to the stage as it inevitably does of not being about Christianity any more in any shape or form I tend to ignore it from then on. I have actually intentionally stayed away from a lot of threads recently, haven't posted much on this forum for the last few weeks.

    I'm failing to see how a thread is ruined by a single poster, but again this is what the sub-forum is for, discussion you guys think distracts you from what ever it is you use this forum for.


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    #72
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Do you really want people discussing Christianity in other forums that you don't know about or can't respond to defend.

    This happens already in After Hours, Philosophy, Humanities, The Ladies Lounge, on occasion LGB, and so on. One cannot confine all Christian related topics to this forum.


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    #73
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    MrPudding wrote: »
    Primarily? So what is it's secondary function?

    Its secondary function would be the discussion of Christian issues and belief - a discussion that is open to believers and unbelievers alike.

    The Forum Charter, of course, encourages such discussion while making clear that it does not include attacks against the faith of Christians.


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    #74
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Jakkass wrote: »
    This happens already in After Hours, Philosophy, Humanities, The Ladies Lounge, on occasion LGB, and so on. One cannot confine all Christian related topics to this forum.

    I wasn't really asking does it happen, I asked did you want it?

    Plenty of times regulars on this forum have criticized after the fact discussion on the A&A forum which discussed aspects of Christianity for not having "perspective" (ie the Christian side of the argument) as if it was some back slapping exercise because it was over there not over here


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    #75
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Wicknight wrote: »
    I wasn't really asking does it happen, I asked did you want it?

    It does happen and I couldn't care less. AH is for everything and anything. Humanities again is open to a bit of everything, the ladies can discuss what they want. It doesn't bother me and I doubt it bothers anyone else that these threads are tolerated. That is completely different to pointing out that they contain a lot of nonsense.

    To take your example just think of how ridiculous it would sound if a man was to advocate the creation of a sub-forum in the Ladies Lounge so other men could go there and comment on what a load of nonsense women's issues etc are. I demand a sub-forum in Jazz & Blues to discuss why Classical is so much better.... there already is a Classical forum? That doesn't matter, I want to tell Jazz fans that Classical is better..


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    #76
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    PDN wrote: »
    The Forum Charter, of course, encourages such discussion while making clear that it does not include attacks against the faith of Christians.

    What exactly is the difference between discussing faith and attacking it? Can one discuss what they see as logical (or other) problems with the concept of faith without being seen to attack it? Does it come down to what is seen as the motivations of the poster rather than what they're necessarily saying?


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    #77
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    What exactly is the difference between discussing faith and attacking it? Can one discuss what they see as logical (or other) problems with the concept of faith without being seen to attack it? Does it come down to what is seen as the motivations of the poster rather than what they're necessarily saying?

    I would say motivation is certainly part of it.

    The same question can sound remarkably different when it is expressed by:
    a) A christian who is effectively saying, "I've always wondered why this verse says this ... "
    b) A poster who regularly posts in A&A about how much they hate religion and how all believers are retards.


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    #78
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    PDN wrote: »
    I would say motivation is certainly part of it.

    The same question can sound remarkably different when it is expressed by:
    a) A christian who is effectively saying, "I've always wondered why this verse says this ... "
    b) A poster who regularly posts in A&A about how much they hate religion and how all believers are retards.

    You've used very emotive language there that would quite clearly be seen as trolling in any context but calling every member of the forum a retard is not the only thing that is viewed as attacking.

    Say for example a believer says "you can't prove god doesn't exist" and someone responds "you can't prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist".

    Is that statement inherently an "attacking" statement?
    Is it, as I would view it, pointing out the logical flaw of the statement that was just made?
    Would it be viewed as either attacking or pointing out a logical flaw based on who said it and their perceived motivations?


    Other than the emotive language used, the difference between your two examples above appears to be that the first person has not made up their mind on the issue and is simply looking for information rather than expressing a viewpoint where the second person has a viewpoint that goes against the prevailing christian viewpoint. Would that be accurate, that questions out of curiosity (which are likely to be followed up with simply thanking the poster for the information) are welcome but expressing a viewpoint that goes against the prevailing christian viewpoint (possibly in the form of or beginning with a question) is viewed as attacking and is not welcome?


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    #79
    lmaopml
    Registered Users Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    Sam Vimes wrote: »

    Say for example a believer says "you can't prove god doesn't exist" and someone responds "you can't prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist".

    Is that statement inherently an "attacking" statement?
    Is it, as I would view it, pointing out the logical flaw of the statement that was just made?
    Would it be viewed as either attacking or pointing out a logical flaw based on who said it and their perceived motivations?

    I would imagine in order for a Christian to have said, 'You can't prove God doesn't exist', it would have had to be put forward by another poster initially that, 'God doesn't exist'....in the Christianity forum?? where that's against the charter?

    Why not just post up a thread in A & A, and mark it as 'Attention Christians, I'd like to discuss the merits of the FSM and God with you please?' or even After Hours etc. and that way if a Christian would like to interact they can...

    There are so many places to discuss it? Why a sub forum on Christianity? In saying that, it wouldn't particularly bother me whether there was one or not, just don't really see the point in having a sub forum...


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    #80
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    On the topic of a Sub-Forum, I'd actually think it would be a great idea, but the other way round. I.E. Keep this forum just as it is, with the same moderation etc, but have a 'Christian Only' sub-forum. Although some atheists/non-christians may complain about this forum being strict, I don't think it wise to allow a forum under the banner of Christianity, where people feel that they can peddle any sort of nonsense they want and call it honest enquiry. I am sometimes quite flabbergasted at some of the comments made over in A&A about the moderation here being strict. Yee don't know yer born I tells ye, If I had a ban stick:)

    Anyway, with the above solution, Christians who don't want non-christian input can go to the aforementioned sub-forum. Maybe operate it by the 'access request' system. Those who wish to engage with all folk, but have a good moderation policy (I refer to the current one) can post in the current forum.

    Anyway, I think the above would work well.


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    #81
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    lmaopml wrote: »
    I would imagine in order for a Christian to have said, 'You can't prove God doesn't exist', it would have had to be put forward by another poster initially that, 'God doesn't exist'....in the Christianity forum?? where that's against the charter?
    nope, not at all.
    lmaopml wrote: »
    Why not just post up a thread in A & A, and mark it as 'Attention Christians, I'd like to discuss the merits of the FSM and God with you please?' or even After Hours etc. and that way if a Christian would like to interact they can...

    There are so many places to discuss it? Why a sub forum on Christianity? In saying that, it wouldn't particularly bother me whether there was one or not, just don't really see the point in having a sub forum...

    Neither after hours nor A&A are intended specifically for discussion of christianity. If the topic is christianity I don't see why it should be put somewhere else. If you want a place where only like minded people post and nothing is ever questioned or "attacked" it's a private forum you want tbh. A public forum on any topic will always bring people from all sides of the debate and rightly so imo.


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    #82
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    This is now going a predictable route with atheists teling us what kind of a Christianity Forum would suit them.

    We've been here before, so no point in going there again.


This discussion has been closed.
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