Christianity Forum

PDN

mdebets wrote: »

But you even with a pure Christian forum, you would have both, as long as you have one Christian forum, and not several sub-foren per denomination.
Or would you ban a Protestant, because he wants to show a Catholic the logical fallacies of Papal infalability? Or a Catholic because he questions a Protestant why they don't believe in Apostolic Succession?

I think to be shown different logical fallacies of your faith is an important part of growing it. It gives you the possibility to reflect on it, find out why it is or isn't a fallaciy and grow your faith.

The problem of this is off course that such discussions hardly lead to people changing their mind in their core beliefs, so they tend to regularly go into heated debates, but I don't think a ourely Christian forum might change that. Only strict moderation will do this.

Not at all. Discussions within Christianity obviously belong in the Christianity forum. Attacks against the faith do not.

Think of the Soccer forum. Liverpool fans or Arsenal fans don't need their own individual fora. The Soccer forum is the best place for them to discuss the respective merits of their teams.

What would not be tolerated would be people who hate soccer who keep posting in every thread trying to convince both the Liverpool and the Arsenal fans that soccer is a stupid game anyway.

prinz

mdebets wrote: »

But you even with a pure Christian forum, you would have both, as long as you have one Christian forum, and not several sub-foren per denomination.
Or would you ban a Protestant, because he wants to show a Catholic the logical fallacies of Papal infalability? Or a Catholic because he questions a Protestant why they don't believe in Apostolic Succession?

That is Christians discussing various interpretations of Christianit so we can learn, compare, contrast etc.

mdebets wrote: »

I think to be shown different logical fallacies of your faith is an important part of growing it. It gives you the possibility to reflect on it, find out why it is or isn't a fallaciy and grow your faith.

The problem is I and I am sure others come here to explore their faith and beliefs. Not to be told that they are wrong. It's a common misconception amongst atheists it seems that Christians need to be convinced that they are wrong. Sorry I don't buy that. If I want to explore an issue, an apparent contradiction, a logical fallacy, I can do that with other Christians, or I can go open a book.

mdebets wrote: »

The problem of this is off course that such discussions hardly lead to people changing their mind in their core beliefs, so they tend to regularly go into heated debates, but I don't think a ourely Christian forum might change that. Only strict moderation will do this.

That's just it, nail on the head. People aren't going to change their core beliefs in Christianity because an atheist came onto this forum and got his lulz about brainwashed kids etc.

mdebets

PDN wrote: »

Not at all. Discussions within Christianity obviously belong in the Christianity forum. Attacks against the faith do not.

Think of the Soccer forum. Liverpool fans or Arsenal fans don't need their own individual fora. The Soccer forum is the best place for them to discuss the respective merits of their teams.

What would not be tolerated would be people who hate soccer who keep posting in every thread trying to convince both the Liverpool and the Arsenal fans that soccer is a stupid game anyway.

I fully agree with you. I just think the problem is not so much with Atheist vs. Christian, but respectfull poster vs. unrespectfull poster.

If you don't seperate by denomination (what I don't advocate, I'd prefere it the way it is, just a little bit stricter moderation), you still have the problem of rude discussions or trolling. Prinz was saying that she doesn't want to hear about different logical fallacies of her faith. You would stiill have these in a pure Christian forum and you could still have the same fight, as most denominations have something that others find unbiblically, wrong or just stupid. You can either discuss them like adults, then you could also discuss them wis Atheists, or you could discuss them by throwing a tuntrum and calling the other poster all sort of stupid names for believing in this (in the poster's mind) stupidity.
I would think that we as Christians are (unfortunately) well capable of that and that we don't need to ban Atheists from discussing for this reason. Just some stricter modding, to weed troublemakers out from the start.

lmaopml

I joined boards after the Lisbon debate, and I'm kind of sorry that I did tbh, I felt I missed out adding my tuppence worth..lol..as I found a lot of 'tarring' going on around that time...I would have loved to see how much it was discussed on the Christianity forum...

I also got a baptism of fire with one of my 'first posts', a thread starter no less..lol..... in the Atheist forum, the mods treated me rather well, but I found the topic I was interested in constantly went....'off topic'....which was frustrating cause there were some marvelous posts in between the 'noise'...

Still, it would be great to be able to discuss not only Christianity, and the ins and outs of learning more about it and how others view Christianity from their own branch etc. but how it pertains to life today, be it politics, education, human rights etc. etc. In an ideal world there would be people who are interested in genuine discussion, and we wouldn't get people who are simply being kinda stupid ( or really trying to be and failing miserably ) to be ....

...funny! They're not funny...and they ruin it for others. That's why there are mods, and in any 'sub' forum you'll get the same stuff...

We must 'battle on'..lol...

I like this forum just the way it is, mind you, I've often frequented the A & A forum and thought, 'Ohh he/she has a point there....' I don't even look at the more 'Guffaw' threads though; moreso the ones to do with everyday life etc.

Just my tuppence worth.:o

mdebets

prinz wrote: »

That is Christians discussing various interpretations of Christianit so we can learn, compare, contrast etc.



The problem is I and I am sure others come here to explore their faith and beliefs. Not to be told that they are wrong. It's a common misconception amongst atheists it seems that Christians need to be convinced that they are wrong. Sorry I don't buy that. If I want to explore an issue, an apparent contradiction, a logical fallacy, I can do that with other Christians, or I can go open a book.

I think you made the error of equating Atheists with bad behaviour during discussions and Christians with good behaviour. I think that's totally wrong. You can have an Atheist who respects your believes and with whom you can argue properly and you could have a Christian of another denomination who is totally rude and just insults you in every post, just because you believe in something different then him.
This bad behaviour should be punished, be it an Atheist or a Christian, not the fact that one is not a Christian.

prinz

mdebets wrote: »

Prinz was saying that she doesn't want to hear about different logical fallacies of her faith. You would stiill have these in a pure Christian forum and you could still have the same fight, as most denominations have something that others find unbiblically, wrong or just stupid.

He (;)) was actually referring to threads which veer away from actually the ins and outs of different understandings of Christianity and turn into a 'who's the best debater regardless of topic', the actual info gets lost, in my eyes anyway, between pages and pages of people arguing about logic, semantics, different internet message board rules, latin named debating techniques etc etc etc.

There's a forum for debating and honing your argumentative skills and there is a forum for discussing Christianity. There's a forum for going into why religion is nonsense and there is a forum for discussing Christianity. There's a forum for posting your brainfart of the day and there is a forum for discussing Christianity.

prinz

mdebets wrote: »

You can have an Atheist who respects your believes and with whom you can argue properly and you could have a Christian of another denomination who is totally rude and just insults you in every post, just because you believe in something different then him.

Except discussing things with Christians I would come here for. Not discussing Christianity with atheists. If I want to discuss evolution I don't go chat with young earth creationists, as neither side will really gain anything IMO. There's no place for rude and insulting posting no matter who it comes from.

mdebets wrote: »

This bad behaviour should be punished, be it an Atheist or a Christian, not the fact that one is not a Christian.

I agree absolutely.

mdebets

prinz wrote: »

He (;))

Sorry about that. Don't really know why I saw you as female.

prinz wrote: »

was actually referring to threads which veer away from actually the ins and outs of different understandings of Christianity and turn into a 'who's the best debater regardless of topic', the actual info gets lost, in my eyes anyway, between pages and pages of people arguing about logic, semantics, different internet message board rules, latin named debating techniques etc etc etc.

There's a forum for debating and honing your argumentative skills and there is a forum for discussing Christianity. There's a forum for going into why religion is nonsense and there is a forum for discussing Christianity. There's a forum for posting your brainfart of the day and there is a forum for discussing Christianity.

I fully agree with you that type of discussion wars are bad and thath they should probably modded more strictly. However I don't see it so much as a Christian vs. Atheist problem, but a good manner vs. bad manner problem.

mdebets

prinz wrote: »

Except discussing things with Christians I would come here for. Not discussing Christianity with atheists. If I want to discuss evolution I don't go chat with young earth creationists, as neither side will really gain anything IMO. There's no place for rude and insulting posting no matter who it comes from.

I don't see why discussing ones faith with a fellow Christian or with an Atheist is so much different, as long as they both behave in an appropriate manner.
I think it might even be more beneficial to discuss with an Atheist than with a fellow Christian, because you have to think more about your faith and reflect on it. You might get to know a side of your faith you hadn't thought of before ao highlights some points where you have to do some more studying.

If you only discuss your faith with someone that believes the same as you, you might become ignorant of some controversial points that others could put out to you, but might never be discussed with your fellow Christian.

prinz

mdebets wrote: »

I don't see why discussing ones faith with a fellow Christian or with an Atheist is so much different, as long as they both behave in an appropriate manner.

I have no problem discussing things with an atheist if they are in the slightest bit interested in listening. Like I said rehashing the same arguments over and over on thread after thread just gets mind numbing.

mdebets wrote: »

I think it might even be more beneficial to discuss with an Atheist than with a fellow Christian, because you have to think more about your faith and reflect on it. You might get to know a side of your faith you hadn't thought of before ao highlights some points where you have to do some more studying.

Weren't you just highlighting the differences between denominations? If I want to know why atheists think whatever they do about a certain issue then I can go visit the A&A forum and ask. I don't need atheists coming to the Christianity forum to tell me before I ask.

mdebets

@Prinz

I think we have to agree to disagree on this point, so I think I stop posting on this issue, as otherwise we would just be rehashing the same arguments over and over again.

prinz wrote: »

IWeren't you just highlighting the differences between denominations?

My very last point.
Yes, there are differences between denominations and even more differences between Atheists and Christians.
My argument here is that the degree of difference does not decide about how two people behave to each other (in online discussions as well as in real life, as many wars between Christians in the past have shown), but their general attitude towards others.

prinz

mdebets wrote: »

Yes, there are differences between denominations and even more differences between Atheists and Christians..

But this isn't the Atheists & Christians forum. Again I have no problem with atheists who are interested in Christianity. However the vast majority of atheist posters who post on this forum have no interest in discussing Christianity but in combatting Christian belief.

MrPudding

prinz wrote: »

But this isn't the Atheists & Christians forum.

It is not the "Christians" forum either.

MrP

Onesimus

MrPudding wrote: »

It is not the "Christians" forum either.

MrP

yes it is, this is why it says ''Christianity''

prinz

MrPudding wrote: »

It is not the "Christians" forum either.

MrP

Fine Atheism & Christianity, point still stands.

lmaopml

mdebets wrote: »

@Prinz

I think we have to agree to disagree on this point, so I think I stop posting on this issue, as otherwise we would just be rehashing the same arguments over and over again.


My very last point.
Yes, there are differences between denominations and even more differences between Atheists and Christians.
My argument here is that the degree of difference does not decide about how two people behave to each other (in online discussions as well as in real life, as many wars between Christians in the past have shown), but their general attitude towards others.

###

Mdebits, I think you have a point when you say, 'their general attitude towards eachother...' however I would encompass more examples than you did! and not entirely agree that Atheists and Christians are more at odds, than others are.

It's a big steaming pile of shyte ( forgive the analogy ) the 'attitude' thing, especially because this is the 'net' and most likely and especially because we are living right next door to eachother and I'm quite sure we don't explain or even feel the need to 'explain' in real life as to how we, parent, live, socialise, or even what we put our 'faith' in...Anybody who thinks there is 'one' way to 'think' is quite frankly, fatally 'deluded'....

The whole, everything is 'rational' thing, and can be 'measured' and 'quantified' blah blah blah...... is quite frankly a pile of shyte imo, and denies the simple 'persons' experience..

Nobody can 'quantify' a 'person'..

I often find it hard to fathom, ( given the protection of freedom of thought we seem to value so much, and expression that is paramount as regards human rights ) ..and even 'evolution' of thought that some seem to think they are ahead of others and would like to 'speed up'....even though they don't actually have any answers either, ony pedantic debate which is fruitless and so utterly transparent...

Call me a twat! Eh, I couldn't care less...with respect of course !

StealthRolex

To be honest I do have to thank the atheists for strengthening my faith

Every time I have to research an atheistic barb I find that not only is it usually an atheistic myth I also discover something new that supports and enriches my faith.


which is good

it is still frustrating though that not all atheists are Buddhists

MrPudding

Onesimus wrote: »

yes it is, this is why it says ''Christianity''

There is a big difference between a "Christians" forum and a "Christianity" forum.

MrP

Onesimus

MrPudding wrote: »

There is a big difference between a "Christians" forum and a "Christianity" forum.

MrP

Oh yes that big difference being that the ''Christianity forum'' is designated to ''Christians''

its welcomed to those considering Christianity or questions about it, but most of the questions are just clever ruses to use it as a punchbag, for people with an insatiable desire to attack it.

MrPudding

Onesimus wrote: »

Oh yes that big difference being that the ''Christianity forum'' is designated to ''Christians''

Really? You might want ot tell the admins that.

MrP

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

What would not be tolerated would be people who hate soccer who keep posting in every thread trying to convince both the Liverpool and the Arsenal fans that soccer is a stupid game anyway.

Whether it is tolerated is some what beside the point. Isn't "Soccer is a stupid game" not a discussion about soccer. It doesn't belong in the Rugby forum or the Baseball forum or the Christianity forum.

I agree entirely that people should not post in every thread with that topic if the thread is not about that topic, but it would be silly to pretend it is not a topic about soccer. If there is enough interest in the topic it should be put some where related to soccer.

Zombrex

prinz wrote: »

Fine Atheism & Christianity, point still stands.

No the point doesn't stand because you are viewing the forum in terms of the community that has grown up around it, not the subject heading that it is.

prinz

Wicknight wrote: »

No the point doesn't stand because you are viewing the forum in terms of the community that has grown up around it, not the subject heading that it is.

The point stands because the place to discuss atheism is the atheism forum. For your claim to have any basis one would see a similar level of critical discussion in the Islam forum, Buddhism forum etc. Why would there be a focus solely on the Christianity forum other than it presents a larger audience to troll?

Zombrex

prinz wrote: »

The point stands because the place to discuss atheism is the atheism forum.

"I have a problem with Christianity" is not an atheist topic, any more than "I have a problem with soccer" is a Rugby topic.

Plenty of Christians have problems with Christianity, as do members of other faiths. To make them post in the atheism forum would be just silly.

prinz wrote: »

For your claim to have any basis one would see a similar level of critical discussion in the Islam forum, Buddhism forum etc.

Yes, of course, if there is enough interest to warrant the admins of Boards.ie going to the trouble of creating a new sub-forum.

philologos

I think I'm in agreement with Wicknight on this one. Personally, I think the disagreement to many Christian topics is something that characterises this forum, including the monster of the Creationist thread we have here which I personally have learned a lot from, and have rejected the former position I used to hold.

Indeed, I've learned many things since I started posting on this forum. So "atheists out" isn't really a reasonable way to deal with this.

I think if we structured an area either for Christians to talk about matters of their faith on a more personal level, or an area for those who object to their point of view it would work well.

PDN

MrPudding wrote: »

Really? You might want ot tell the admins that.

MrP

Actually, any time people have raised this issue in the Help Desk the Admins have expressed their view that the purpose of the Christianity Forum is to provide a safe place for the Christian Community to discuss issues of mutual interest.

Indeed, the Admins have, much more strongly than Fanny Cradock or myself, stated that this forum is primarily a forum for Christians.

prinz

Wicknight wrote: »

"I have a problem with Christianity" is not an atheist topic, any more than "I have a problem with soccer" is a Rugby topic. Plenty of Christians have problems with Christianity, as do members of other faiths. To make them post in the atheism forum would be just silly..

I wouldn't mind anyone coming here with an issue about Christianity, or an aspect of Christianity that they actually wanted to discuss or wanted to get an insight into. That's exactly what I come here for, to read the words of people who know Christianity better than I do (be they Christians, atheists whatever) to get an insight into something I may not have been exposed to before.

I do have a problem with people who obviously have no interest whatsoever in religion other than trying to provoke a reaction to back up their own already ingrained distaste for it. If a handful of atheists want to indulge their atheism and congratulate themselves for it, then yes I do believe there is already a forum where that might be better suited (note not saying that is what all the posters on A&A are doing). I know there are atheists in the world, I know there are people who think Christianity is nonsense.. I do not need to see them repeat it thread...after thread....after thread.

Zombrex

prinz wrote: »

I wouldn't mind anyone coming here with an issue about Christianity, or an aspect of Christianity that they actually wanted to discuss or wanted to get an insight into. That's exactly what I come here for, to read the words of people who know Christianity better than I do (be they Christians, atheists whatever) to get an insight into something I may not have been exposed to before.

I do have a problem with people who obviously have no interest whatsoever in religion other than trying to provoke a reaction to back up their own already ingrained distaste for it. If a handful of atheists want to indulge their atheism and congratulate themselves for it, then yes I do believe there is already a forum where that might be better suited (note not saying that is what all the posters on A&A are doing). I know there are atheists in the world, I know there are people who think Christianity is nonsense.. I do not need to see them repeat it thread...after thread....after thread.

Whether you have a problem with it or not is some what irrelevant. This isn't your forum, it isn't the Christian's forum.

I've seen plenty of genuine discussions on this forum that have been destroyed by over zealous Christians invoking the "troll" card when discussion doesn't go the way they want.

I appreciate you guys do not want what are, in your view, discussion that disrupts your own discussions with each other. That is the whole point of a sub forum.

prinz

Wicknight wrote: »

Whether you have a problem with it or not is some what irrelevant. This isn't your forum, it isn't the Christian's forum.

This is a great example of some of the problems that exist.

Zombrex

prinz wrote: »

This is a great example of some of the problems that exist.

I agree, which is why I'm suggesting a sub forum for discussion of Christian topics that don't fall into the realm of Christians discussion things or non-Christians looking for information from Christians.

I'm not really following the objection here.

You all seem to agree that there are discussions taking place on the Christianity forum that you think are, in your opinion, disruptive to the discussions of regular Christians?