American Pony Cars Coming To Europe

Topper Harley

It looks as though the Ford Mustang and Chevrolet Camaro will be coming to the European market over the coming years. About feckin' time too. The Camaro from about 2011 and the Mustang from 2014. No Dodge Challenger though. Here's some links...

Ford Mustang in Europe in 2014

2014 Ford Mustang could be officially introduced in Europe

Chevrolet Camaro Destined For European Market

New Camaro for Europe in 2010

No Dodge Challenger for Europe

I love the idea of having a Mustang that is designed for European roads. A slightly smaller, more nimble, more economical version of what is just a brilliant looking car. I know some people may think of them as a bit crass but I love them all the same.

Anyone else excited by this news or was I just the last person to know? And do you think they'll be a success? My only worry is that they might make them too expensive and only have the huge American engines which will make them more exclusive but keep them well out of my reach.

Vertakill

I didn't hear of it but that sounds great!

I hope they've some RHD ones for UK/Ire !

I'd kill for a RHD Mustang in Ireland... :pac:

I hope they stay somewhat true to their original specs though - especially engine-wise.
Suspension could probably do with a lot of tweaking for EU.

bmw535d

we have a thing in ireland called corners,wonder how they will cope to such change:L

McSpud

Topper Harley wrote: »

A slightly smaller, more nimble, more economical version of what is just a brilliant looking car. I know some people may think of them as a bit crass but I love them all the same.

Seems like an oxymoron to me.

Can only imagine what the VRT & motor tax would be...

Topper Harley

McSpud wrote: »

Seems like an oxymoron to me.

Can only imagine what the VRT & motor tax would be...

My understanding is that, with the Mustang at least, it will be available with a smaller engine more suited to European markets and roads. As for the VRT, if they screw this up for me, I'm leaving the country. And I mean it this time.

Run_to_da_hills

10 years too late for Ireland.

If they do get here most of them will probably end up with CAB .

Topper Harley

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Having driven a pony car with a small engine I can safely say that they are a terrible idea. Big car+small engine=poor fuel economy+low performance.

What car/engine size were you driving?

Hopefully they could make the Mustang just a little bit smaller, and in terms of engine size, I'd imagine a 2.3L / 2.5L would be a good entry level. Maybe I'm wrong though. And with the new emissions tax, as long as it's 'green' the tax wouldn't be so bad.

I know it may be sacrilegious to suggest this in such a car, but what about a diesel engine. Diesel engines these days all have turbos, they're economical, 'green' and they don't sound as bad as they used to.

bmw535d

Topper Harley wrote: »

What car/engine size were you driving?

Hopefully they could make the Mustang just a little bit smaller, and in terms of engine size, I'd imagine a 2.3L / 2.5L would be a good entry level. Maybe I'm wrong though. And with the new emissions tax, as long as it's 'green' the tax wouldn't be so bad.

I know it may be sacrilegious to suggest this in such a car, but what about a diesel engine. Diesel engines these days all have turbos, they're economical, 'green' and they don't sound as bad as they used to.

that would take away the whole point of these cars imo,,arnt they supposed to be heard as much as seen, i mean they just have to have a 4.0+ v8 that vibrates the ground around it. even better with a screaming supercharger hanging out of the bonnet

Topper Harley

bmw535d wrote: »

that would take away the whole point of these cars imo,,arnt they supposed to be heard as much as seen, i mean they just have to have a 4.0+ v8 that vibrates the ground around it. even better with a screaming supercharger hanging out of the bonnet

Yes - in America, but we're a little bit more refined over this side of the pond.
Note: just a joke. I have nothing against Americans

bmw535d

Topper Harley wrote: »

Yes - in America, but we're a little bit more refined over this side of the pond.
Note: just a joke. I have nothing against Americans

yes i know we are a little less head first think later but seriously if i saw a mustang for example and it went past sounding like a turbo 2.5 v6 i would think its off a cylinder or something,,yes i know they may be 7.0 v8's making 200bhp(a little exaggerating) but there made to be noisy low compression monsters not high compression Jap/German v6/L6 quite but powerful 3.0litres etc

and a diesel, Americans still think diesels are smelly slow noisy dirty things the same goes for manual transmissions.

if these cars were to come to Europe i think they shouldn't be tammed down i think they should bolt on a turbo either side of the v8 considering our emission laws arnt as strict

JHMEG

Europe. No mention of Ireland. Don't expect to see them here with the punitive motor tax system.

Topper Harley wrote: »

Yes - in America, but we're a little bit more refined over this side of the pond.

No we're not. Powerful here means diesel. The yanks dislike it for a reason.

Nothing like a big American V8. Nothing.

bazz26

When it comes to muscle cars, by definition there is no replacement for displacement.

ARGINITE

Why wait?

bazz26

Mustang V6 sound:

versus

Mustang V8 sound:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpCqjI5HecI

No contest.

bladebrew

they would definetly need to change the engine size,i dont think the irish market would like 4-5 litre lumps, especially with the cost of petrol over here,

1.9tdi in a mustang would be fine:D

bmw535d

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I see your American V8 and raise you an Italian V8

ill see your Italian v8 and raise you a German v8:D

NEVER LATE WITH A V8

bazz just proved my point

listen to this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKPhT9gPz5Y

pburns

Topper Harley wrote: »

Hopefully they could make the Mustang just a little bit smaller, and in terms of engine size, I'd imagine a 2.3L / 2.5L would be a good entry level. Maybe I'm wrong though. And with the new emissions tax, as long as it's 'green' the tax wouldn't be so bad.

I know it may be sacrilegious to suggest this in such a car, but what about a diesel engine. Diesel engines these days all have turbos, they're economical, 'green' and they don't sound as bad as they used to.

I have nothing against diesels or Mustang/Camero but outside of their natural environment and with anything but a V8 they are quite pointless.

Seriously, if you're suggesting a diesel engine it's all about the pose. Buy a Hyundai Coupe.

Topper Harley

To be honest I'd just love to have a slightly smaller, Europeanised Mustang with a fair bit of power but appropriate for our roads and tax system. I'd want it because it looks brilliant not because I want a huge engined muscle car. For that I'd prefer a classic Mustang or a Chevrolet Chevelle. I'd be happy with a 90 litre Mustang if I was living in America, driving on long straight roads between my Beverly Hills mansion and Vegas every couple of weeks.

Some of you Muscle car purists will probably be thinking I should just stick to Celica's or Hyundai Coupe's but obviously they're just not the same. I do like Coupe's though.

But how much heavier could a Mustang be than say an S-Class Merc or a 7 Series BMW. 3.0L do them fine. And modern engines these days are getting more fuel efficient and 'greener' too, so maybe they wouldn't be as hard on the pocket in terms of petrol and tax for some poor eejit like me. Or am I just clutching at straws?

Big Nasty

As a muscle car enthusiast and driver I would welcome this, but toned down versions? No friggin' way! The current 'Stang comes in a 4.0 V6 or 4.8 V8 - the V6 is a pointless exercise. Although I appreciate the new retro look 'Stang, Camaro and Challenger they are built for people who like the original stance but want modern performance.

No point in a pony / muscle car without a V8 - and they should all be LHD IMO - takes away from it if it's RHD, especially if it's a 6-Pot! :mad:

Topper Harley

MCMLXXV wrote: »

they should all be LHD IMO - takes away from it if it's RHD, especially if it's a 6-Pot! :mad:

What's so bad about RHD? I'd imagine that there'd be a big enough market for Mustangs in the UK to warrant it.

Big Nasty

Topper Harley wrote: »

What's so bad about RHD? I'd imagine that there'd be a big enough market for Mustangs in the UK to warrant it.

Nothing 'wrong' with them at all. If you're driving an American car it just has to be LHD, it's just part of the whole experience. RHD conversions don't do it for me at all and they plummet in value too for not being original.

Cass

MCMLXXV wrote: »

.......but toned down versions? No friggin' way! .................No point in a pony / muscle car without a V8 ...............

+1.

Just poppin my head in. Interesting thread.

Would absolutely love a Mustang (GT500). Pure muscle car and would sell life and love if they came over here to get one. Practicality may not be great, but who cares. They are a fantasy car.(personally)

Matt Simis

MCMLXXV wrote: »

As a muscle car enthusiast and driver I would welcome this, but toned down versions? No friggin' way! The current 'Stang comes in a 4.0 V6 or 4.8 V8 - the V6 is a pointless exercise. Although I appreciate the new retro look 'Stang, Camaro and Challenger they are built for people who like the original stance but want modern performance.

No point in a pony / muscle car without a V8 - and they should all be LHD IMO - takes away from it if it's RHD, especially if it's a 6-Pot! :mad:

I drove the V6 Camaro in the US, rented it for 3 days. It was "good", but really was as you might think, an impersonation of V8 muscle car (in my mind).

However
But for "scared of CC" Irish types, its very very good, way above the rubbish Mustang V6:
-MPG was high, well over 30 (converted to Imperial MPG) on the highway
-Direct Injection Engine with VVT isnt the simplistic Yank tank we all know (and love)
-Emissions should be low, lower than most here think (just look at the MPG to get an idea)
-300bhp, under 6sec to 60 (though strangely felt slower).
-At 1700kg not overly heavy, though it felt lighter (in a bad way, cheapish)
-Again unlike the stang, has good suspension all round
-Good interior IMO
-Auto box was fine, though not my cup of tea
-Generally a smooth and easy drive, even the sound system was fine (bear in mind the Camaro is a cheap car, like $20k cheap)

On the minus side:
-Exhaust note was woeful though.
-Visibility is quite poor (and therefore poor on the V8 too)
-As noted, didnt feel fast, would be an interesting motor with Forced Induction though
-Small boot and small rear seating are (think RX8)

Metric stats and figures here thanks to the Canadians
http://www.auto123.com/en/chevrolet/camaro/2010?carid=1101200901


In 2011 there is a updated 3.6 V6 in the Camaro, 312bhp, even lower emissions (and likely even better MPG), so all looking good on that front. Still... its no V8.
Im very much looking forward to renting a black Camaro SS with the proper engine on my return..

Topper Harley

Just found this review of of the 2010 Mustang. Seems to be a good website. It reviews the Mustang GT, Shelby GT500 etc. and compares them with Camaros and Challengers. Good, seeing as Parkers don't do any of them.

The 2010 Mustang is in the 3380-3555-pound range, 370 to 495 pounds lighter than comparable Challengers. The 2010 Mustang goes on sale this spring just as the pony/musclecar era peaks out. Mustang/Camaro/Challenger's traditional buyers are aging. A strict, new Corporate Average Fuel Economy looms just as buyers seek out clean, green, fuel-efficient cars. For the next-generation Mustang that Ford will begin designing as soon as this one premieres, the biggest challenge is ahead: How to make the next one smaller without making a retro Mustang II.

That doesn't seem too heavy as it is and it looks as though the next generation will be a bit smaller for America anyway, regardless of it's European market.

How do you refresh a retro car for its second generation? The "what's next?" dilemma has baffled designers since J Mays' Concept 1 became the 1998 Volkswagen New Beetle-after all, VW has no Mark II original Beetle from which to crib. The problem followed Mays to Ford, where the 2002 Thunderbird became a one-hit wonder.

That's another thing to consider. I hope they don't change too much for the 2014 model. It's a gorgeous car as it is.

JJJJNR

Absurdum

ehh those "news" sites are all just speculative blogs, I wouldn't be holding my breath

Topper Harley

Absurdum wrote: »

ehh those "news" sites are all just speculative blogs, I wouldn't be holding my breath

Good news for muscle car enthusiasts living on the “Old Continent”: New Camaro is officially coming to Europe next year!

With GM hoping to expand the Chevrolet lineup in Europe in the next couple years, Cincinnati Chevrolet expects the Camaro will play a large role in the brand’s changing image. However, supply and demand constraints will also play a role in the Camaro’s availability to European customers as demand in the U.S. remains extremely strong.

It looks as though the Camaro is a certainty, listed here on the Chevrolet UK website under future cars. Not on the Irish website though. The Mustang is certainly more speculative but it would make sense, especially since, it appears they'll be making changes to it that would make it more Euro friendly. 2014 is still a fair bit away though which is maybe why there's no official conformation yet, but there's no smoke without fire. But rest assured I won't be attempting to hold my breath that long.

Absurdum

The older Camaro (around 98-2002) was officially available in the UK too but you could probably count the annual sales on one hand, unless they plan on dropping a 1.2 litre eco lump into it to temp our crazy petrolheads, I don't see it making it this far :pac:

Topper Harley

Absurdum wrote: »

The older Camaro (around 98-2002) was officially available in the UK too but you could probably count the annual sales on one hand, unless they plan on dropping a 1.2 litre eco lump into it to temp our crazy petrolheads, I don't see it making it this far :pac:

Yeah, but that was a horrible car compared to the new model and the 98-2002 model's annual sales probably weren't as good in America as new one's. Sales of the new Camaro are strong and because it's aesthetically similar to the first generation model it could interest classic muscle/pony car enthusiasts, not to mention the whole Transformers thing. There'll be market for the Bumblebee Camaro alone just like for the Elanor Mustang.

But I can imagine them not bringing it into the Irish market. However, importing from the UK would probably be cheaper than buying one new here anyway.

Vertakill

Sorry but there's no f'ing way I'm driving a LHD car with over 300 BHP in Ireland, of all places. I'd say it's a fking nightmare trying to overtake people, especially on back roads.
Insurance companies would have a field day as well.
I'd happily buy a classic muscle car that's LHD (for value and nostalgia), but there's no way I'd buy one of the modern muscle cars in LHD...

It may effect the value, yes, but if it were to come out in the UK/Ire as RHD, then we wouldn't be majorly effected as the value might hold.

It would seem a lot easier for them to stay LHD and come out in Europe though so I'm not holding my breath for a RHD.

I remember looking and comparing this a few months ago, and the V6 Camaro is very comparable, performance wise, to the (276bhp) 350Z.
I can't vouch for the handling of the Camaro but the torque, bhp, 0-60 and engine size are incredibly similar (on paper).

So, don't knock the V6 too much. Still a fast enough car.

The Recliner

Matt Simis wrote: »

In 2011 there is a updated 3.6 V6 in the Camaro, 312bhp, even lower emissions (and likely even better MPG), so all looking good on that front. Still... its no V8.
Im very much looking forward to renting a black Camaro SS with the proper engine on my return..

If that car comes out here I will be buying one

Obviously I would prefer a V8 but I think our tax rate has killed them here

A V6 Camaro will do me nicely

*Starts saving*