Does religion have a place in 6th Year Graduations?

--LOS--

eightyfish wrote: »

We had a mass to end the year during my 6th year too, in 2000. The students got the chance to pick the song that was played at the end of the mass. Survey sheets went around, collected by students, and after a couple of days the chosen song turned out to be... 'Smack My Bitch Up' by The Prodigy.

Says it all really.

No, they didn't let us use it.

Ours was sweet child of mine, just coz

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

More importantly OP, does religion have a place in todays world?

Corkfeen

OP I vote you do a reading for the mass. T'would go something along the lines of this, "A reading from the book of Dawkins, The God Delusion" . My logic for my graduation mass is that I can snooze off during it......:eek:

Lollipops23

Myself and another girl in my class campaigned to drop all religious crap from the ceremony-which was referred to as a mass. Our argument was that apart from other atheists/agnostics in the year we also had a Muslim,a Jehovah's Witness, a Morman and a Protestant in the year and it was unfair to exclude them in this way. We managed a compromise in the end-we had non-relisious music and readings/poems that were non-demotional. It was a 1st for our school (which was a community college), am proud we managed that much

tfitzgerald

do you think the jews or muslims would stop ther services just to keep the r c happy NO ,the priest is blessing and saying prayers for the class leave him alone if he was putting a curse on them then they would have reason to complain . A lot of these students will be like stalin on his deathbed crying for a priest to forgive him for his sins

argonaut

tfitzgerald wrote: »

do you think the jews or muslims would stop ther services just to keep the r c happy NO ,the priest is blessing and saying prayers for the class leave him alone if he was putting a curse on them then they would have reason to complain.

You're missing the point, though. Unless I misunderstand the OP, he's in a community, i.e. state-run, school, and as such it's just plain wrong to involve religion in the graduation ceremony. Religion and government, I'm sure you'd agree, should be seperate.

Assuming you're a Catholic, would you like to be subjected to, say, a Protestant sermon for your graduation? I think not.

A lot of these students will be like stalin on his deathbed crying for a priest to forgive him for his sins

Oh, and there's literally no evidence this ever happened, FWIW.

eightyfish

--LOS-- wrote: »

Ours was sweet child of mine, just coz

Sweet Jesus!
That's horrible. I wouldn't wish that song on anyone.

tfitzgerald wrote: »

A lot of these students will be like stalin on his deathbed crying for a priest to forgive him for his sins

What!?!?!?

philologos

old hippy wrote: »

He or she probably doesn't have much say in what school they go to, don't you think?

In an ideal world, religion would not be involved in schools and people could choose at age 21 or whatever, if they wish to be one religion or no religion.

But I digress

I chose to believe in Christianity when I was 17, illegal?

Ideal to deny people free choice until 21 about what they believe? By the by, people will believe things even if they aren't 21. It would be very difficult to legislate.

Why 21 can I ask?

Mike 1972

tfitzgerald wrote: »

stalin on his deathbed crying for a priest to forgive him for his sins

And the reliable source you have to back this up is...............?

Seloth

Tbh thought religion dosent play a huge role in most schoolsmthe odd mass and maybe a religion class which dosent specify on religion generally((Or a single one)) so there dosent seem to be a huge problem with it.

Look most people in Ireland if theist aree obviosuly very open ones,so no one will force it down your throat,and there seems to be the exact same amout of extremists from both sides if you look around,but in general people dont reqignise the Atheist theist...they mostly protest online :P...in comparision to the guy I once saw which held a twig up with a cardbboard sign saying Jesus.

Rather than argue about it discuss it and share ideas,I've had some brilliant conversations with a Muslim mate of mine((Ironically is more abiding to the religion than his parents,the mother drinking,the father Smoking and his sister a lesbian hah..oh I love Irony))

argonaut

Mike 1972 wrote: »

And the reliable source you have to back this up is...............?

Probably the peer-reviewed bastion of factual integrity that is a chain e-mail.

Miss Lockhart

Noreen1 wrote: »

Eh?

Well, like the vast majority of people in Ireland, I went to a secondary school with a Catholic majority. There were several Protestants, of different denominations attending the same school.

As it happens, one of my close friends happened to belong to one of the minority denominations. I remember asking her if she felt marginalised in any way, (probably not the word I used as a teenager:D),and she seemed genuinely surprised at the idea.

RC went to their own religious instruction class, other denonimations went to theirs - no big deal, really.

If there was a mass for a particular event (death of a student, or whatever), Catholics basically attended, or were collected by their parents (unusual, but happened occasionally) Protestants were welcome to attend, or otherwise, entirely as they chose. Alternative activities were arranged by the school for those of the Protestant denominations.
It seems to me that due respect was shown for all denominations

Noreen

It sounds like your school was reasonably accommodating in its day.

In my opinion holding a religious ceremony as part of an event which has nothing to do with religion is effectively excluding a lot of people from something they should be involved in. Everybody in a school should be able to take part fully in a school graduation - they should not have to skip parts. That goes for staff and students. I would like to be able to take part fully in everything that is a part of my workplace, but unfortunatley I cannot. I certainly did not appreciate having to stand at the top of my classroom with 28 1st years asking me why I didn't say the Our Father along with the intercom a couple of weeks ago.

Obviously if you choose to work in or attend (or your parents choose for you) a school with a religious ethos and management structure then you know what you are getting into - and that is fair enough. But surely we should be able to attend/work in an entirely state-run school without religion being a central theme in all events.

As for separating students by denomination for religious instruction - well, there is currently major concern among parents, politicans and VEC committee members about that very model being used in the new state-run primary schools. Many people feel it is not the way to go.

Nodin

Brian Colossal Forehead wrote: »

More importantly OP, does religion have a place in todays world?

Yep. Beside palm reading, tarot cards, and that programme on one of the satellites where they walk around in the dark, being filmed in night vision.

red_ice

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Perhaps you should take your own advice and

Hardly the same situation you ****ing nonce. Do you see me getting signatures? Dont be such a pratt. Im religious, but im not a push over.

Einhard wrote: »

Where's the choice if there are no decent secular schools within your area? Also, seeing as secularists contribute to the running of schools through taxes, why should they even have to make such a choice? I don't want to pay taxes to subsidise anyone's religion, especially if it's to the exclusion of fellow secularist/atheists.

You dont want to pay taxes to subsidise someone's religion? Well i dont want to pay taxes to subsidise someones drug habbit who cant be arsed get a job because hes got it too good on the dole. Or what about 'asylum seekers'. A little off topic yes, but im sure you see my angle.

I can only assume as mentioned earlier on that the church founded the schools in your area and the government decided it was a wise investment to help these schools as they are providing a service to the community. They are the 'decent' schools, because the school is run in such a mannor. The other schools which you deem not decent are more than likely that way because they are not run properly. So from your post i get, the church runs good schools, the other non church related schools are crap. Says alot to me..

The thing i find sad/pathetic about some of the people giving out about the church teaching their kids in their way is that your denying your children the option of having a faith in their lives. My kids will never be denied a chance to learn about anything, even if i dont agree with it, they will always be given an option. Education comes in many forms and to block such a HUGE topic as religion out of their lives is shocking imo.

You went to a religious school and chose not to have a faith, im sure your kids would have the same option at the end of the day.

Mike 1972

red_ice wrote: »

denying your children the option of having a faith in their lives.

Its a rather damning indictment of your parenting skills if the only possible way your kids might have the opportunity to acquire a faith (on the dubious assumption that this would even be a desirable thing*) is to attend a church run school.

* = Perhaps not given the apparent propensity for personal abuse it seems to give people around these parts

Nodin

red_ice wrote: »

Hardly the same situation you ****ing nonce. Do you see me getting signatures? Dont be such a pratt. Im religious, but im not a push over.

You dont want to pay taxes to subsidise someone's religion? Well i dont want to pay taxes to subsidise someones drug habbit who cant be arsed get a job because hes got it too good on the dole. Or what about 'asylum seekers'. A little off topic yes, but im sure you see my angle.

I can only assume as mentioned earlier on that the church founded the schools in your area and the government decided it was a wise investment to help these schools as they are providing a service to the community. They are the 'decent' schools, because the school is run in such a mannor. The other schools which you deem not decent are more than likely that way because they are not run properly. So from your post i get, the church runs good schools, the other non church related schools are crap. Says alot to me..

The thing i find sad/pathetic about some of the people giving out about the church teaching their kids in their way is that your denying your children the option of having a faith in their lives. (.......).

Good to see the christian values of not being judgmental and showing compassion, charity and love for ones fellows was well instilled there.

cypharius

If you got 30 sigs then I wouldn't just let this go. Unless the school is owned/run by the church then a pslam has absaloutly no place in the graduation. Perhaps you could get them to instead have a moments silence to pray to whatever deity/reflect. As I am in a public school with 8 people in my class(Of 30) who I know for a fact are Atheist, and another 3 who are Muslim or something I can only asume that there is a large percentage in your year who are not Christian.

owenc

Noreen1 wrote: »

Eh?

Well, like the vast majority of people in Ireland, I went to a secondary school with a Catholic majority. There were several Protestants, of different denominations attending the same school.

As it happens, one of my close friends happened to belong to one of the minority denominations. I remember asking her if she felt marginalised in any way, (probably not the word I used as a teenager:D),and she seemed genuinely surprised at the idea.

RC went to their own religious instruction class, other denonimations went to theirs - no big deal, really.

If there was a mass for a particular event (death of a student, or whatever), Catholics basically attended, or were collected by their parents (unusual, but happened occasionally) Protestants were welcome to attend, or otherwise, entirely as they chose. Alternative activities were arranged by the school for those of the Protestant denominations.
It seems to me that due respect was shown for all denominations

Noreen

It may be different here because this is northern ireland and they try to force religion down your throat because of this stupid historic crap. My mother didn't send me to a catholic school because of that, she thought religion wouldn't be mentioned in protestant schools and it wasn't plus it was respectful for the other side of my family. I'm now in a mixed school and its a bit of a disaster because in re, we don't even get to learn because these losers from catholic schools put up their hands and ask stupid pathetic questions like (are the simpsons protestant), they even told us that their priest told them who to vote for, now how is that re!? Its just bigoted crap, everything in our school turns into a protestant-catholic match and i'm sick of it, i feel like giving a few people a slap across the face, its that bad the teachers don't even get involved. The other day i was siting in art and this protestant (actually hes never been to church) said that catholics all support celtic and have large families, i was going to kill him!! Its annoying im stuck between the two sides, so i can be fuming at both sides!!

Father Damo

Seachmall wrote: »

It is wrong, children can't get an education nowadays without being indoctrinated to a religion.

Oh pull the other one. Indoctrinated, really :pac: In national school we must have done religion once every 3 weeks at most, and even in secondary religion was more abiout social responsibility issues (drugs, drink, teen pregnancy, STIs) than any actual learning prayers etc.

pickarooney

Keogg wrote: »

I'm not sure about why he got them to stop the petition, probably made him look bad or something:pac: He said they'd discuss it on wednesday when we're back in school, I'd say he'll probably turn it into an opt-in or out thing, more than likely

What you did was a bit spineless, to be honest. You were told to go ask the principal, but instead you started a petition before he'd even had a chance to discuss it with you. I'm not surprised he asked you to stop the petition in those circumstances.

cypharius

Father Damo wrote: »

Oh pull the other one. Indoctrinated, really :pac: In national school we must have done religion once every 3 weeks at most, and even in secondary religion was more abiout social responsibility issues (drugs, drink, teen pregnancy, STIs) than any actual learning prayers etc.

Wtf are you talking about? Over 90% of the primary schools are basicly glorified church extensions. As for religion, on the JC exam papers there is not way to answer it without asuming god(In the singular) exists.

Not to mention that in most public schools, the school will declare a "Catholic ethos".

Mike 1972

Father Damo wrote: »

Oh pull the other one. Indoctrinated, really :pac: In national school we must have done religion once every 3 weeks at most, and even in secondary religion was more abiout social responsibility issues (drugs, drink, teen pregnancy, STIs) than any actual learning prayers etc.

To be fair It seems from discussions on these issues here and elsewhere That individual schools/teachers seem to vary widely on how seriously they take the religious aspect of their remit.

owenc wrote: »

ask stupid pathetic questions like (are the simpsons protestant)!!

In fairness it is a stupid question alright

I mean with a name like "Simpson".......... :pac:

(Sorry)

Father Damo

cypharius wrote: »

Wtf are you talking about? Over 90% of the primary schools are basicly glorified church extensions. As for religion, on the JC exam papers there is not way to answer it without asuming god(In the singular) exists.

Not to mention that in most public schools, the school will declare a "Catholic ethos".

Who gives a flying fcuk :pac: Really, if you think religion is the biggest load of sh1t kids learn in school you need to grow up.

jumpguy

TBH, is it really that big of a deal? It all sounds abit petty to me tbh, ye're making mountains out of molehills. If a priest comes around and gives a blessing for your future, does it really matter that much? Is it going to take away from yere graduation ceremony?

Father Damo

jumpguy wrote: »

TBH, is it really that big of a deal? It all sounds abit petty to me tbh, ye're making mountains out of molehills. If a priest comes around and gives a blessing for your future, does it really matter that much? Is it going to take away from yere graduation ceremony?

Im interested as to whether this 17/18 year old is going to give his uncle back the confirmation money he would have got 6 years ago.

Course not. Hating on religion is trendy until you have to put your money where your mouth is.

token56

red_ice wrote: »

The thing i find sad/pathetic about some of the people giving out about the church teaching their kids in their way is that your denying your children the option of having a faith in their lives. My kids will never be denied a chance to learn about anything, even if i dont agree with it, they will always be given an option. Education comes in many forms and to block such a HUGE topic as religion out of their lives is shocking imo.

You went to a religious school and chose not to have a faith, im sure your kids would have the same option at the end of the day.

I dont think most people want to block religion completely from schools like you are indicating, rather just not have kids indoctrinated into anyone one particular religion. As you said its a huge topic and I'm sure most reasonable people would be fine with religion being taught from a historical and informative standpoint, for example teaching all the major religions, or however many is practical in time allowed, their history, what the beliefs are, etc. As opposed to teaching that the beliefs of any particular religion are factual. I dont think people want to deny their kids the chance of learning anything and I dont see anyone who has said such here. By all means, teach kids about all religions, and let them choose what they want to believe or not believe after this. In my opinion this would be much better than the current system but I'm sure you probably disagree.

Mike 1972

Father Damo wrote: »

Im interested as to whether this 17/18 year old is going to give his uncle back the confirmation money he would have got 6 years ago.

You mean theres some form of contract involved here ?

Honestly If thats the best you can come up with then game over !

philologos

A common fallacy people seem to be making in this discussion (very interesting by the way) - is that belief, and faith are going to go away, and there will be at some point in time no Christian left in Ireland.

We need to start thinking realistically. People of faith are going to be here, likewise atheists are going to be here. Now, given both of these facts, how can we accommodate both in our society rather than engaging in petty selfishness?

Likewise, the use of the term "indoctrination" when looking to Irish education is absurd, and sensationalist.

Father Damo

Mike 1972 wrote: »

You mean theres some form of contract involved here ?

Honestly If thats the best you can come up with then game over !

If you havent got enough conviction to completely renounce any religious ceremony you took part in then you really shouldnt be making an arse of yourself moaning about the church (and Im not remotely religious, but damned if Im going to bandwagon)

cypharius

Father Damo wrote: »

Who gives a flying fcuk :pac: Really, if you think religion is the biggest load of sh1t kids learn in school you need to grow up.

You're completely right, I'm being immature for wanting to live in a secular society, and not have religion rammed down my throat.

And of course, religion is nowhere near as silly as all those grammmer rules, and as for science... bah! And those languages, those are silly countries, we don't need another language. Not to mention maths!