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Turf cutting ban
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I agree with the vast majority of what ur saying but unfortunately it seema from an active raises bog point of view domestic cutting is causing continied long term damage to the habitat. That's why all cutting is coming to an end on the 130 bogs. And that's why this isn't an attck on cutting as a pastime or as a green initiative as cutting is still allowed on the other 1500 bogs on the country.
domestic turf cutting has very little impact on the bogland. the area of turf removed for each turf cutter is very small on average about 20ft square section of bog out of a 5 acre plot. a lot of people who own bogs dont cut any turf at all so the amount of turf being removed are very small and would have very little impact on wildlife habitats. id say far more habitats have been removed by large housing developments around cities over the building boom years. but with the turf cutting ban it will be the less well off people that will be affected so i suppose its easier for the eu and the irish government to say no to these people.0 -
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1. I kicked no-one. Despite how much I would enjoy it.
2. Its an ancient broadleaf forest, the last of what was many hundreds of acres. It throngs with wildlife including Owls. Students from Trinity and UCD have visited because of its rare diversity.
3. Insert appropriate insult you might feel would fit this occasion.
1. I didn't say you kicked anyone, but I don't see how your temptation to do it advances your argument. Great that you didn't kick a Govt. minister to make your point. Maximum respect
2. Fantastic re your ten acres of ancient native woodland, and I'm not being sarcastic. Genuinely respectful that you would mind a thing like that Great that there are a few fragments left and minded. However doesn't it tell you something if students from Trinity and UCD are travelling to see a ten acre patch??????
The boglands have got one hell of a kicking in the 20th century, but there are still substantial tracts of them left, and they are pretty unique. Unlike our native forests (again no offence intended here) there is critical mass - we don't just have little isolated 'island' fragments, like the native woods. We have big enough areas to have fully functional ecosystems. We just need to act now. And reducing turf-harvesting is part of the price. The alternative is to wait till it's almost all gone, like the woods.
3. I meant no insult. I hit the keys a bit hard sometimes, still learning and making mistakes around here.
LostCovey0 -
Have they announced a compo deal yet?
The Mink farmers are getting no compo.
What's the difference between the turf-cutting ban and the fur-farming ban? Can't see why either would attract financial compensation???????
Will I get compo for not cutting turf on my bog I don't cut turf on?
LostCovey0 -
domestic turf cutting has very little impact on the bogland. the area of turf removed for each turf cutter is very small on average about 20ft square section of bog out of a 5 acre plot. a lot of people who own bogs dont cut any turf at all so the amount of turf being removed are very small and would have very little impact on wildlife habitats. id say far more habitats have been removed by large housing developments around cities over the building boom years. but with the turf cutting ban it will be the less well off people that will be affected so i suppose its easier for the eu and the irish government to say no to these people.
Then not being smart with you at all but you haven't read a lot about the specifics of this turf cutting ban. Google the various reports(and not the media editorials. Everything I've read so far indicates that not "turf" specifically is the endangered habitat but rather active raised bog. And seemingly according to the scientists, which I admit I'm not of such background, drainage and cutting is causing substantial annual loss of this habitat. I've also heardbit suggested that even stopping cutting on the bogs won't be enough because the drainage will continue to kill the active raised bog, so restoration measures will be required supplementary to stopping cutting.
As I've said it's not about turf cutting or peat as a whole. It's not a conspiracy against the little people. The bogs were selected and protected on a scientific basis. Every other eu country has to abide by the European directives just like Ireland0 -
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The Mink farmers are getting no compo.
What's the difference between the turf-cutting ban and the fur-farming ban? Can't see why either would attract financial compensation???????
Will I get compo for not cutting turf on my bog I don't cut turf on?
LostCovey
personally, I don't think anyone should be compensated in a position were they haven't suffered. I don't say that specifically about this issue but about any and every walk of life. If u are in a car accident you shouldn't be automatically awarded compensation where u haven't suffered a loss, trauma etc...0 -
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We as a nation thought for ages they were a place where you could get free fuel, dump cars, silage plastic & household rubbish etc.
What are you wittering on about.
Have you ever worked a day in the bog?
I can tell you our bog is nothing like you describe..... or thought of like you describe.There is no conflict between domestic turf-cutting and peatland conservation. It is the commercial angle that is causing the problem.
Turn of the screw.
First commercial then private cutting.0 -
personally, I don't think anyone should be compensated in a position were they haven't suffered. I don't say that specifically about this issue but about any and every walk of life. If u are in a car accident you shouldn't be automatically awarded compensation where u haven't suffered a loss, trauma etc...
The compo culture seems to be part of who we are.
The dilemma is very similar to the dilemma faced by the salmon drift netting lobby. People are trying to say they are not making money from it, but would lose a fortune if they are stopped. Both statements can't be true.
If they are losing a few trailers of turf for the oul' Stanley, it wouldn't be too hard to compensate them. I passed a place the last day where there was about 7 acres of sausage turf spread on former silage fields adjoining a bog. Not joking. I don't see why we should compensate him.
LostCovey0 -
The beginning of the end of native peatland destruction through commercial turfcuttingWhat are you wittering on about.
YesWhat are you wittering on about.
Have you ever worked a day in the bog?
Delighted for you. Well done.I can tell you our bog is nothing like you describe..... or thought of like you describe.
.
LostCovey0 -
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Was it a deaignated bog because I know for a fact that sausage machines are illegal on them since at least 1999.The compo culture seems to be part of who we are.
The dilemma is very similar to the dilemma faced by the salmon drift netting lobby. People are trying to say they are not making money from it, but would lose a fortune if they are stopped. Both statements can't be true.
If they are losing a few trailers of turf for the oul' Stanley, it wouldn't be too hard to compensate them. I passed a place the last day where there was about 7 acres of sausage turf spread on former silage fields adjoining a bog. Not joking. I don't see why we should compensate him.
LostCovey0 -
Was it a deaignated bog because I know for a fact that sausage machines are illegal on them since at least 1999.
Wrong word, you are correct, apologies. It was actually a hopper machine extruding square "sausages". Careless terminology, and misleading. I haven't seen one the old sausage machines for yonks.
Should have taken a photo, will be back that way this week, and will get one. Some sight.
LostCovey0 -
If they are losing a few trailers of turf for the oul' Stanley, it wouldn't be too hard to compensate them.
3000 Euro one off payment.
Be pissed away in about two years.
Delighted for you. Well done.
Reply of the year right there.
Better put a preservation order on it.0 -
You want they should get compo AND maybe some financial management advice too? Like the Lotto does?3000 Euro one off payment.
Be pissed away in about two years.Reply of the year right there.
Better put a preservation order on it.
mikeom, if you have a bog free of fridges and plastic, it's not my replies that deserve preservation!
Nighty night,
LostCovey0 -
I'm not being smart but nobody is going to force you to buy oil. Have they announced a compo deal yet?
As a matter of interest, do you cut from your bogplot each year?
I hadnt cut turf for years until around two years ago I just cut enough for my own house for the winter
This year I have dried out some turf dust to burn with wood chip in my wood chip boiler.
I also have an oil boiler but am moving away from that as its getting too dear
I hope I will still have the right to use my own peat fuel when peak oil kicks in years down the line and oil is $200 a barel0 -
Every other eu country has to abide by the European directives just like Ireland[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure that is the case! So far as I can see there are few countries that are as enthusiastic about applying EU rules and regulations as Ireland and the UK. The UK civil service in fact seem to take great delight in rigorously applying what are often only guideleines. Ireland seems to have changed so much since I was a lad there - 1950's! At that time there was a great deal of common sense "custom and practice" that prevailed in the countryside. That all seems to have gone. Turf-cutting is just the latest example - what about the rigorously imposed hedge-cutting dates - never mind how the actual seasons may vary in terms of weather, temperature etc - stop cutting your hedges when I say so! Bonfires - no common sense pssibilities here - notification in advance to the Fire Brigade etc - or else! I don't understand why a country that once had such an enlightened and "flexible" attitude to rules and regulations has become so eager to comply with anything and everything that the bureaucrats say.
Turf cutting as practiced by generations of small farmers has never posed a threat to eco-systems, quite the opposite. My experience of turf cutting areas was that they were well managed and were in fact rather like small nature reserves in their own right. The threat has come from giant organisations providing fuel for power stations and for millions of home-gardners who have always insisted on peat-based composts.
Sorry to go on - I know the old days have long since gone and I know that they weren't all good - but there were a lot of things about the old life that seem far superior to what we have to put up with today!
George0 -
Join Date:Posts: 30618
Guys- if you disagree with what someone else posts- refute it factually, without getting personal. Just a little warning- if you don't want to loose your posting rights in this forum......0 -
Hedgecutting restrictions are regulated through the wildlife acts. These acts are national legislation and do not derive from European directives. That's not a European issue.
As I've said several times on this thread my Reading of the turf cutting ban refers to active raised bog an endangered European habitat, the ban is not in place for turf cutting or peatland generally but specifically in areas that contain active raised bog habitat.
Every country must implement relevant European legislation. Failure to do so will result in European court of justice action0 -
Hi vcsgglIreland seems to have changed so much since I was a lad there - 1950's! At that time there was a great deal of common sense "custom and practice" that prevailed in the countryside.
You must be the only survivor of Ireland in the 1950s who is nostalgic for it. From what I have heard it was a package deal - no EU rules, no EU money, poverty, TB, rampant emigration, Church supremacy. Doesn't sound like fun to me.
Rules (and they are Irish rules as has been pointed out to you) that stop people flailing hedges during the bird nesting season seem reasonable to me. There's a lot of the year left besides.
By the way we did get relaxed in recent times about some banking rules & regulations but I think the consensus is that it wasn't one of our better ideas.
LostCovey0 -
Then not being smart with you at all but you haven't read a lot about the specifics of this turf cutting ban. Google the various reports(and not the media editorials. Everything I've read so far indicates that not "turf" specifically is the endangered habitat but rather active raised bog. And seemingly according to the scientists, which I admit I'm not of such background, drainage and cutting is causing substantial annual loss of this habitat. I've also heardbit suggested that even stopping cutting on the bogs won't be enough because the drainage will continue to kill the active raised bog, so restoration measures will be required supplementary to stopping cutting.
As I've said it's not about turf cutting or peat as a whole. It's not a conspiracy against the little people. The bogs were selected and protected on a scientific basis. Every other eu country has to abide by the European directives just like Ireland
i have read enough about the specifics of this ban and know that it will affect people (mostly elderly) who depend on turf cut on their own bogs even if they are blanket bogs to heat their homes.
they can not afford to buy oil or buy trailers of turf which are expensive.
how many raised bogs have been wiped out by bord na mona to make briquettes and power fuel stations. its not the person who cuts a small amount of turf for their own use that are doing the damage and i dont believe some of the arguments being made in the reports which are put together by people from an taisce and the like. if the ban is implemented on blanket bogs its only a matter of time before its imposed on all bogs , just take a look at this website for example. they would have you believe most the blanket bogs in ireland were cut away with slanes. they even talk about putting planning restrictions on turf cutting.http://www.ipcc.ie/currentaction2005-19.html
i take it that you dont own a bog yourself or ever have had to rely on turf to heat your home.0 -
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im saying that to understand the need for domestic turf cutting you have to have had experience of it first hand. if you never owned a bog and have never had to depend on turf as a fuel its very easy to say that it should be banned and tough luck go buy some other fuel.Where do you get the idea that only people affected by a regulation are entitled to hold & express a view on it?
LostCovey0 -
Uriel - I don't see much evidence of strict imposition of EU regs in rural France, Spain or Italy and certainly if you visit the "new" members like Romania or Bulgaria EU regs don't seem to have penetrated their farming communities at all. If you go around the traditional markets in those countries you can see literally hundreds of infringements of EU food and hygiene regulations that local communities simply ignore. I suppose the Brussels "police" will eventually catch up with them but it will take a long time.
In the meantime I'm very happy to say that I can still buy bags of good black turf around Monaghan for a very reasonable price!
George0 -
i have read enough about the specifics of this ban and know that it will affect people (mostly elderly) who depend on turf cut on their own bogs even if they are blanket bogs to heat their homes.
they can not afford to buy oil or buy trailers of turf which are expensive.
how many raised bogs have been wiped out by bord na mona to make briquettes and power fuel stations. its not the person who cuts a small amount of turf for their own use that are doing the damage and i dont believe some of the arguments being made in the reports which are put together by people from an taisce and the like. if the ban is implemented on blanket bogs its only a matter of time before its imposed on all bogs , just take a look at this website for example. they would have you believe most the blanket bogs in ireland were cut away with slanes. they even talk about putting planning restrictions on turf cutting.http://www.ipcc.ie/currentaction2005-19.html
i take it that you dont own a bog yourself or ever have had to rely on turf to heat your home.
Well you clearly haven't read as much as you claim to have read. Which to be honest from a factual or debate point of view makes your whole post irrelevant as far as the arguement is concerned.
You mention blanket bogs a number of times. There is absolutely no restriction on blanket bogs being proposed under the cessation. Zilch. People can continue to cut as before on all blanket bogs, even those with protection orders on them.
Secondly, an taisce, IPCC (like you've just linked to) are an NGO take has a view on certain issues the same as the IFA and TCCA are. They have every right to make their views known just like the IFA are entitled to do so. Welcome to democracy. However, while they may or may not influence policy in this country neither actually makes it. Linking an IPCC article doesn't lend any weight either way in this debate.
But, just to say you need to read a little bit more than you claim to... There is already some restriction to peat cutting in the planning act and also through EPA regulation. So check that out for your next read.
Finally as I've said before, and I'm sick saying it at this stage, turf cutting generally is not affected. A tiny number of bogs containing the endangered active raised bog habitat are affected. The scientific evidence I have read online indicates that the turf cutting for home use and the drainage etc that goes with that on these 130 bogs is killing the protected habitat. So it's wrong to suggest that cutting a bit here or there is doing no harm sure. When it seems the scientific evidence says otherwise.
On the issue of bord na mona, yeah no one is disputing that they raped the bogs for decades, perhaps causing some or a lot of the problem now, but the fact is we as in Ireland Inc. are required by EU law to protect the last vestiges of this habitat and that is what we must do, the past is the past now I'm afraid. This habitat doesn't exist on biord na mona bogs. In fact the bord gave a lot of "good" bogs over to the state for preservation. You continue to confuse turf cutting generally with the protection of active raised bog habitat.
If u haven't learned this already, today's society deals with and cleans up yesterdays mess, tomorrows society deals with and cleans up today's mess, then you'll learn it sometime on life
look I appreciate that it's not easy for some of the individuals that will be affected. I'm sure compensation will be available to assist, unfortunately though there is no choice in the matter. Failure to act now will see us end up in the European courts0 -
Uriel - I don't see much evidence of strict imposition of EU regs in rural France, Spain or Italy and certainly if you visit the "new" members like Romania or Bulgaria EU regs don't seem to have penetrated their farming communities at all. If you go around the traditional markets in those countries you can see literally hundreds of infringements of EU food and hygiene regulations that local communities simply ignore. I suppose the Brussels "police" will eventually catch up with them but it will take a long time.
In the meantime I'm very happy to say that I can still buy bags of good black turf around Monaghan for a very reasonable price!
George
Google eu commission fines and judgement and do some research and you'll find plenty of instances where other member states have been brought to bear for failure to comply with eu law.
Yes new member states will not be in compliance with a plethora of regulations. It takes time to put in place the frameworks, experience, guidance etc to implement the necessary regulations. The commission takes a lenient stance on such matters and rightly so. They are joining a framework of legislation that has existed long before they joined. Don't forget Ireland has been a member for 30+ yrs. We should know better by now and the EU is not as lenient and again rightly so. Not only that but this directive dates from 1992, we as a country agreed to it's provisions and we've had 18 years to implement it, so we can't run anymore.
You will still be able to bit turf long into the future. The ban affects 130 put of 1600 bogs on Ireland. Again your mixing up re purpose of the ban with general turf cutting. But I'm not explaining that one again0 -
Well you clearly haven't read as much as you claim to have read. Which to be honest from a factual or debate point of view makes your whole post irrelevant as far as the arguement is concerned.
You mention blanket bogs a number of times. There is absolutely no restriction on blanket bogs being proposed under the cessation. Zilch. People can continue to cut as before on all blanket bogs, even those with protection orders on them.
Secondly, an taisce, IPCC (like you've just linked to) are an NGO take has a view on certain issues the same as the IFA and TCCA are. They have every right to make their views known just like the IFA are entitled to do so. Welcome to democracy. However, while they may or may not influence policy in this country neither actually makes it. Linking an IPCC article doesn't lend any weight either way in this debate.
But, just to say you need to read a little bit more than you claim to... There is already some restriction to peat cutting in the planning act and also through EPA regulation. So check that out for your next read.
Finally as I've said before, and I'm sick saying it at this stage, turf cutting generally is not affected. A tiny number of bogs containing the endangered active raised bog habitat are affected. The scientific evidence I have read online indicates that the turf cutting for home use and the drainage etc that goes with that on these 130 bogs is killing the protected habitat. So it's wrong to suggest that cutting a bit here or there is doing no harm sure. When it seems the scientific evidence says otherwise.
On the issue of bord na mona, yeah no one is disputing that they raped the bogs for decades, perhaps causing some or a lot of the problem now, but the fact is we as in Ireland Inc. are required by EU law to protect the last vestiges of this habitat and that is what we must do, the past is the past now I'm afraid. This habitat doesn't exist on biord na mona bogs. In fact the bord gave a lot of "good" bogs over to the state for preservation. You continue to confuse turf cutting generally with the protection of active raised bog habitat.
If u haven't learned this already, today's society deals with and cleans up yesterdays mess, tomorrows society deals with and cleans up today's mess, then you'll learn it sometime on life
look I appreciate that it's not easy for some of the individuals that will be affected. I'm sure compensation will be available to assist, unfortunately though there is no choice in the matter. Failure to act now will see us end up in the European courts
ive read as much as im going to as im too busy looking after my cows calving and footing my turf.
maybe when i go on my holidays to dublin i might read up on it a bit more.;)0 -
ive read as much as im going to as im too busy looking after my cows calving and footing my turf.
maybe when i go on my holidays to dublin i might read up on it a bit more.;)
Mmm yeah good debate.
I come from a farming background on both sides of my family. However, a view of the bigger picture is far better than a restrictive one.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 30618
Guys- final warning- stop personalising posts, or the thread gets closed, and folk get temp bans from posting here.0 -
Secondly, an taisce, IPCC (like you've just linked to) are an NGO take has a view on certain issues the same as the IFA and TCCA are. They have every right to make their views known just like the IFA are entitled to do so. Welcome to democracy.
I have a view on turf cutting, but I also have a view on An Taisce and I do not believe that they are entitled to make their views known. Not in the way that they do anyway. To me, a farmer and rural dweller, an taisce are just a vehicle of objection for other rural dwellers. Now I am not biggoted. I am well aware of the role that an taisce claims to have. But there are a lot of people who do not know the role that an taisce take.
An taisce are a vehicle of objection. If my neighbour applys for planning permission on his own land, and I do not want him to build a house there because I do not like him or I do not like the location, then a nice letter to an taisce outlining my issues will see an objection put against the planning permission which will be signed by some nice man in Dublin who never set foot in the area and most likely never will. He will be the bad man, and I can show face to my neighbour and be critical of the people that objected to his planning permission and be secretly glad that his application was refused.
Now 12 months later, when his brother applies for planning permission on a similarly located site, just 50 yards away from the site that was refused, and I like his brother, he's great craic, he'd be a good neighbour. Where is an taisce now????? They don't even know that the planning permission has gone in because they did not reveive a request to object to planning permission on someone's behalf. He receives planning.
Now this is an organisation who claim to be doing things to benefit the environment. Are they really doing good or are they just there for the benefit of people???
Therefore I disagree with your statement that an taisce have every right to make their views known as I feel that they do not represent the views of rural dwellers. They may represent the views of a small minority of rural dwellers. They IFA, however, represent the views of the vast majority of Irish Farmers. And after all, it is the farmers who have taken care of the land and brought it to the level that it is at the moment.
You can talk about democracy, but there is still a major planning crisis in rural Ireland that is preventing farmers from building on their own land. One person can influence an organisation to object to a planing permission on their behalf. That's not democracy and in my opinion, they should not have the right to be able to do that. You can throw it all back at me about all the excess houses in the country and how the country went mad on a building boom. But that affects very few farmers.
Recently, a friend, who is a full time farmer, applied for planning permission, and it was objected to by an taisce. A neighbour admitted to writing to an taisce because they did not like where the house was to be located. An taisce recommended that he buy a house in the local town which was 3 miles away. What a sham!!0 -
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OK LostCovey - I did say that life was not all good back in the old days! But there were many aspects of rural life that have changed for the worse. What really gets me now is the enthusiasm that so many have for the endless rules and regulations. It seems there is no room for anyone to take a personal, often very well informed, view on anything. I mentioned hedge cutting - no famer that I ever knew would ever have set out to cut their hedges in the late spring or summer, they were far too busy doing other things and they did actaully respect the wildlife and the country side. It was not necessary to impose a rigid rule about which date you can start and which date you must stop - but it keeps some office-bound bureaucrat happy and provides opportunities for some civil servants to harangue anybody who steps over the line. Despite what Uriel says about EU rules and penalties it is still the case that in rural France, Spain and Italy - longer-standing memebers of the EU than Ireland or the UK - if the local farmers or smallholders don't like the Brussels rules they simply ignore them. I know Spain far better than the other countries and certainly I've never come across any farmer who has been "fined" for breaking an EU rule. As I said at the outset it's the eager enthusiasm to embrace every new rule and regulation that I find so depressing rather than the rules themselves.
Forgive me for going on - one last anecdote and then I'll shut up!
I think it was about 1958/9 that I was returning from town with my Grandfather in his old Ford van. We were stopped by a Garda as we turned off the main road - Hello Mr Mills said the Garda - do you have the driving licence yet ? Indeed I do not, said my Gradfather, I just haven't had the time. Ah now, said the Garda you'd be better to get one, mind how you go now! That's the sort of attitude and philosophy that's missing from our lives these days!!
George0
This discussion has been closed.
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