Turf cutting ban

babybrian

Anybody affected by the turf cutting ban that came into effect last month?
What are your views on it?

They have tried to stop cutting in a bog close to me and where our family owns a turf bank. 1 if the neighbours went in with a hopper anyway and the turf is drying-out as I type this POWER TO THE PEOPLE

mikom

Fair play babybrian.
Roscommon?

We'll be cutting here in Galway no matter when they try to impose the ban (or should that be forced purchase of fuel)
Tossers running this country to be honest.
It getting to the stage where it is every man for himself........ true self sufficiency.

O.A.P

No, not this year anyway and the turf was cut last Thursday so I'm only worried about the weather. What bogs are affected? and do they plan to stop us all from cutting turf eventualy ?

tomdeere

well i thing all them greens should be drown in the bog frist and tie all the fianna fail td's on to them the way they'll stay down they'll bring this country to a stand still yet, :mad:

dunsandin

Bord na mona is moving into the dumping recycling business. Any coincidence? They will be lecturing everyone about the need to conserve the bogs now, now that they have milked them for all they are worth. And then they will quietly expand their landfill operation, while continuing to tut tut at those who cut turf on a small scale. Hypocrisy or what!

Uriel.

Wasn't this supposed to happen 11 years ago?

To be honest don't see the big deal 130 bogs out of 1,600 in the country.... big deal. makes sense to try keep a bit of our natural heritage intact if you ask me... not really about being green or environmentally friendly either. It's trying to stop a habitat from becoming extinct which is comendable if you ask me.

I am not a Green Party supporter, in fact I hate them. But this is being done under a European Directive (i.e. we've no choice) and was decided in 1997 - when the Green's weren't in power... so to be fair as much as I hate them I cant blame them for this one...

johngalway

Where would a person find more information on the ban please?

Uriel.

There hasn't been a lot said really in recent time barring some unconfirmed reports etc... probably check npws.ie or IFA.

Minister Gormley is supposedly waiting a report from an expert group on the matter. He's been saying for past 6 weeks that he's gonna get the report shortly etc...

Suppose we can expect some announcement before the Dail goes on summer holidays... maybe much sooner...

mossfort

Uriel. wrote: »

Wasn't this supposed to happen 11 years ago?

To be honest don't see the big deal 130 bogs out of 1,600 in the country.... big deal. makes sense to try keep a bit of our natural heritage intact if you ask me... not really about being green or environmentally friendly either. It's trying to stop a habitat from becoming extinct which is comendable if you ask me.

I am not a Green Party supporter, in fact I hate them. But this is being done under a European Directive (i.e. we've no choice) and was decided in 1997 - when the Green's weren't in power... so to be fair as much as I hate them I cant blame them for this one...

it will be a big deal to the people who cut turf for their own use who can no longer do so. small scale turf cutting for home use has very little impact on the bogs in comparison to the bord na mona bogs which have thousands of acres of bogs completely cleared of vegitation.
the compensation being given to bog owners affected by the ban is a pittance compared to the price of purchasing an alternative fuel .
the ban is just another load of nonsense coming from the european union which will just add more of a finincial burden on people.

Uriel.

mossfort wrote: »

it will be a big deal to the people who cut turf for their own use who can no longer do so. small scale turf cutting for home use has very little impact on the bogs in comparison to the bord na mona bogs which have thousands of acres of bogs completely cleared of vegitation.
the compensation being given to bog owners affected by the ban is a pittance compared to the price of purchasing an alternative fuel .
the ban is just another load of nonsense coming from the european union which will just add more of a finincial burden on people.

I was under the impression that a compensation deal hasn't been announced and that this expert group's report would address this issue? Could be wrong, haven't followed the story greatly over the past few weeks, but that's my understanding of the situation.

My reading of the reports from the representative bodies that met with the expert group last year seem to suggest that the focus is on a particular type of habitat that is endangered - not one found on bord na mona bogs - probably yes because those bogs have been raped for 30/40+ years, but that historical I am afraid. European Regs came into being in 1997 and can only focus on existing habitat not ones that were extinguished (cut) 20 years ago and no longer exist.

Hopefully, any proposed compo will be sufficient but considering the state of the economy probably not.

As for Europe, well unfortunately, you take the good with the bad... Europe gets a lot of say into what we do here, because 1. we signed up to the ECC (Now EU) and 2. we have gladly taken their money for 30+ yrs.

babybrian

I tend to agree with Uriel about the EU, we have got alot from them and I was even a yes voter is the lisbon treaty.
But isnt it true that alot of the decisions made for Ireland are recommondations from Ireland??I dont know the full details of how it works but i think thats the way, for example it was Teagasc and the Department who suggested the farming by dates stupid thing (nitrates directive) and european union just impose it...

Also NUI galway did a study and found that there was enough turf in West Roscommon to build and sustain a peat burning station in the county for the next 42 years! 42 YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!so what's a few locals going to take to depleat a bog, my guess would be hundreds of year and arent bogs continuously growing??


Here's an article I found on the internet also
"Cllr Flanagan said that while the turf cutting ban could be considered as a dictate from Europe, he pointed out that the Governmentst had a get out clause. "There was a get out clause if it was found that a the ban would be economically or culturally negative on a country"

On my familys turf debate(West Offaly) Duchas officer came by and told that we are not to cut next year and that they have the right to stop us. I wonder if they will be able to stop the 'turf hopper fairy' when he comes next year in the middle of the night

Uriel.

babybrian wrote: »

I tend to agree with Uriel about the EU, we have got alot from them and I was even a yes voter is the lisbon treaty.
But isnt it true that alot of the decisions made for Ireland are recommondations from Ireland??I dont know the full details of how it works but i think thats the way, for example it was Teagasc and the Department who suggested the farming by dates stupid thing (nitrates directive) and european union just impose it...

Also NUI galway did a study and found that there was enough turf in West Roscommon to build and sustain a peat burning station in the county for the next 42 years! 42 YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!so what's a few locals going to take to depleat a bog, my guess would be hundreds of year and arent bogs continuously growing??


Here's an article I found on the internet also
"Cllr Flanagan said that while the turf cutting ban could be considered as a dictate from Europe, he pointed out that the Governmentst had a get out clause. "There was a get out clause if it was found that a the ban would be economically or culturally negative on a country"

On my familys turf debate(West Offaly) Duchas officer came by and told that we are not to cut next year and that they have the right to stop us. I wonder if they will be able to stop the 'turf hopper fairy' when he comes next year in the middle of the night

To be honest I am not 100% sure on the whole situation but as far as I have read, this whole thing is based on the Habitats Directive (EU Directive) and this is not a decision from Ireland but an enforcable EU Legislation (i.e. we must fulfill its requirements or face action in the European Court).

I followed this issue a lot last year and the best understanding that I got from it is that it doesn't relate particularly to turf as a standalone issue. It refers particularly to a particular endangered habitat - "active raised bog" which according to Duchas is peat that can actively form. So while it is true that there is plenty of turf in this country, the object of the ban is protect the "actively forming peat areas" which is found in around 130 of 1,600 bogs - which is why I don't see it being all that bad a thing to be honest. Hopefully those affected will be provided with alternatives or compo etc...

As for "ming" flanagan... mmm legalise cannabis etc... I wouldn't really give much credence to anything he says on any issue.

I doubt we have much of a get out clause on economic or cultural issues. As far as I know that "clause" refers to an issue in an overally context. Culturally, turf cutting will continue everywhere else around the country and economically very few people will be affected and it is expected that those that will be affected will be compensated.

dunsandin

If you are going to start villifying Ming on his past opinions, take a look at Eamon"Happy"Gilmore and his past stance on Nth Korea and how wonderful he used to tell us they were. Also, Gormley and his ilk have a lot to do with how EU policy is implemented here - they can drag their feet and obfusticate for many a long year if it suits them, but if its eco-mentalism it gets pushed to the fore. Nitrates directive anybody? Carbon Tax:D:D:D:D:D!!!! How much carbon tax will Bp have to pay for the 25000 barrels of crude they are p1ss1ng out into the gulf of mexico. Banning small scale turf cutting will be like everything else-"sure its only on 130 areas out of 1600", then once the thin end of the wedge is in, the ban gets rapidly extended. Gormless would like to see everybody ploughing with horses and living under thatch, because he is a gobsh1te from S.Co Dublin, along with Eamon"Daw"Ryan and has an evangelical belief in his crusade to save the world. God spare me from Evangelists. They are usually the worst people going if you lift the lid and peek in. Rant over, im going for a cup of strong tea. By the way, I live on the edge of the bog, so a lot around here are worried about this.

mikom

Uriel. wrote: »

As for "ming" flanagan... mmm legalise cannabis etc... I wouldn't really give much credence to anything he says on any issue.

Christ almighty.
Less credence given to a councilor from one of the main regions affected than one of those city dwelling greens.
I despair.

dunsandin wrote: »

Banning small scale turf cutting will be like everything else-"sure its only on 130 areas out of 1600", then once the thin end of the wedge is in, the ban gets rapidly extended.

Yep, Ireland's traditions and culture are slowly being wiped out by these tossers who think they are "progressive".
You may as well be living in any country in Europe.

dunsandin wrote: »

Gormless would like to see everybody ploughing with horses and living under thatch,

I see where you are coming from dunsandin.
However I believe their real aim is to get every one living in nicely stacked shoebox apartments in the city, whilst the countryside become a nature reserve complete with rolling mounds of bramble and roaming packs of sabre tooth tigers.

dunsandin

I dont think they have a real aim, I think they are just well meaning idiots with a typical city dwellers grasp of the countryside. I see it when my family(townies)come to visit --"aw, look at the lovely bushes and the cute views", as they wade through the sh1te in their armani slip ons. Dopes, but dangerous dopes once in power. The carbon tax is a classic - €40 extra for a fill of oil anybody? And no townie relies on turf, so a pretty view of the un-cut bogs from the Govt jet ranks higher, that and the warm glow they feel as they go to bed, another busy day saving the world over. A quick trip to an industrialised area in china or india would soften their cough thats for sure. Pure fantacists.

babybrian

dunsandin for european commisioner please

Uriel.

Lads,
As I've said already I am not a Green Party Supporter, nor have I ever been nor will I ever be.

But the fact of the matter is that this has absolutely nothing to do with Gormley or the Green Party.

The Habitats Directive was implemented in Ireland in 1997. Turf cutting was supposed to stop then. but in 99 a 10 year open permit for domestic cutters was allowed. Those 10 years are now up. The Green's weren't around in 1997 or 1999 so the decision has nothing to do with them. It was decided looong before they had any sway in Government policy. But don't let the facts get in the way of a nice little rant.

Also, the EU or the Greens are not putting a stop to an Irish tradition or culture. They are trying to perserve the last presence of an endangered habitat. 130 bogs out of 1,600 affected. If they were trying to outlaw an Irish tradition they would close all the bogs. They haven't and they won't. But again don't let the facts get in the way of a nice little rant.

I wouldn't want Ming representing me or my cause I can tell you. I'd put much more credence in someone like Paddy Concanon.

johngalway

Uriel. wrote: »

The Green's weren't around in 1997 or 1999 so the decision has nothing to do with them.

They weren't in Government then you mean.

Uriel.

johngalway wrote: »

They weren't in Government then you mean.

Yeah exactly. They'd no say in government decisions or policy at that time

dunsandin

Uriel. wrote: »

Yeah exactly. They'd no say in government decisions or policy at that time

No. Those Greens we're discussing were not around as such, but another bunch(whats the collective noun for Greens? A Sprout of greens? A Thicket of Greens?) of similar minded eco-mentalists were around. Sadly, the Green mildew has been active in Europe for some considerable time. It just took them a while to germinate over here, and up sprouted a Gormley, and his shrub, Eamon Ryan. Round-up anybody?

johngalway

Uriel. wrote: »

Yeah exactly. They'd no say in government decisions or policy at that time

Dunsandin beat me to it Plenty of fundamentalist green minded folks were mounting a sustained campaign of letter writing, canvassing politicians and forming interest groups. The GP may not have been in power, but you can bet some of those now members were extremely active all the same.

Kristopherus

dunsandin wrote: »

No. Those Greens we're discussing were not around as such, but another bunch(whats the collective noun for Greens? A Sprout of greens? A Thicket of Greens?) of similar minded eco-mentalists were around. Sadly, the Green mildew has been active in Europe for some considerable time. It just took them a while to germinate over here, and up sprouted a Gormley, and his shrub, Eamon Ryan. Round-up anybody?

You mean Tree Huggers and so-called Eco Warriors back in the day.Some of them and their ilk are now masquerading as Greens. :eek::eek::eek:

dunsandin

I actually like tree-huggers and eco-warriors. I hate to see perfectly good and healthy trees felled and wasted just so a new road can go through somewhere. I have 10 acres of forest that I just leave totally alone so that wildlife can have somwhere undisturbed to go around here.
What I cant stand is Militant mujahidgreens who impose their Book lined study version of Tolkien based cabbageism onto the rest of us and then parade around like they are the best boy in the class and patronise the rest of us as they cycle back up their own 4rses. I passed Eamon Ryan out walking the other day and had to resist the urge to go over and give him a good kick in the rocks. Him and Gormwald get so far up my nose its unreal.

I am actually a real Green, these g0bsh1tes are just Bogeys. They should each be given an allotment and be made to stay there, playing with it, not to be annoying the rest of us.

LostCovey

mikom wrote: »

Christ almighty.
Less credence given to a councilor from one of the main regions affected than one of those city dwelling greens.
I despair.




Yep, Ireland's traditions and culture are slowly being wiped out by these tossers who think they are "progressive".
You may as well be living in any country in Europe.






I see where you are coming from dunsandin.
However I believe their real aim is to get every one living in nicely stacked shoebox apartments in the city, whilst the countryside become a nature reserve complete with rolling mounds of bramble and roaming packs of sabre tooth tigers.

Well we can take this tabloid approach to life that we seem to have imported from the UK with their red-tops. Where people who oppose the ban scream bout reserves for sabre-toothed tigers.

And the environmentalists can scream about knuckle-dragging culchies drinking their own sewage in one-off houses.

It's not going to get us far - is it?

I would like to throw out a few points, for which I expect to get scalded:

Lots of turf-cutting is commercial, and it is totally unsustainable. Preserving a proportion of our blanket bogs and the few remaining bits of raised bogs is a totally worthy objective.

Preservation of peatland is not compatible with mechanised turf-cutting.

The whole Bord na Mona adventure was state-sponsored vandalism, on a scale that was and is a disgrace, but it originated in truly hard times when we knew no better. Our school books (going back a bit here!) portrayed Bord na Mona as a flagship indigenous industry, for Gods sake!

Bogs are special places. We as a nation thought for ages they were a place where you could get free fuel, dump cars, silage plastic & household rubbish etc. Even if we don't recognise we were wrong, the EU will teach us the hard way.

And I am ignoring all the global warming arguments, because the case for preserving bogs stands without that.

There is no conflict between domestic turf-cutting and peatland conservation. It is the commercial angle that is causing the problem.

LostCovey

LostCovey

Kristopherus wrote: »

You mean Tree Huggers and so-called Eco Warriors back in the day.Some of them and their ilk are now masquerading as Greens. :eek::eek::eek:

It's always easier to name-call than argue isn't it?

LostCovey

PS Never ever voted Green in my life.

Think I will give them my Number 1 next time, after reading these rants from 'the other side'

LostCovey

dunsandin wrote: »

I actually like tree-huggers and eco-warriors. I hate to see perfectly good and healthy trees felled and wasted just so a new road can go through somewhere. I have 10 acres of forest that I just leave totally alone so that wildlife can have somwhere undisturbed to go around here.
What I cant stand is Militant mujahidgreens who impose their Book lined study version of Tolkien based cabbageism onto the rest of us and then parade around like they are the best boy in the class and patronise the rest of us as they cycle back up their own 4rses. I passed Eamon Ryan out walking the other day and had to resist the urge to go over and give him a good kick in the rocks. Him and Gormwald get so far up my nose its unreal.

I am actually a real Green, these g0bsh1tes are just Bogeys. They should each be given an allotment and be made to stay there, playing with it, not to be annoying the rest of us.

Yeah, kicking someone who disagrees with you would definitely convince me you were right & clear-thinking too.

God help us all.

LostCovey

PS if your forestry is an evergreen plantation, don't brag about what you are doing for wildlife, it's probably as sterile as the lunar surface.

Uriel.

It's not even a green issue. It's about the preservation of a an endagered habitat. The same way there's a global preservation program for Sumatran tigers. The idea of preserving something and protecting it against extinction is not confined to "tree huggers" or "Eco warriors"

if the eu didn't require the protection of active raised bog then it would simply cease to extist. As i've said it had nothing to do with gormley Ryan or the green party. These long winded spurious rants about the greens is so far off topic

Uriel.

LostCovey wrote: »

Well we can take this tabloid approach to life that we seem to have imported from the UK with their red-tops. Where people who oppose the ban scream bout reserves for sabre-toothed tigers.

And the environmentalists can scream about knuckle-dragging culchies drinking their own sewage in one-off houses.

It's not going to get us far - is it?

I would like to throw out a few points, for which I expect to get scalded:

Lots of turf-cutting is commercial, and it is totally unsustainable. Preserving a proportion of our blanket bogs and the few remaining bits of raised bogs is a totally worthy objective.

Preservation of peatland is not compatible with mechanised turf-cutting.

The whole Bord na Mona adventure was state-sponsored vandalism, on a scale that was and is a disgrace, but it originated in truly hard times when we knew no better. Our school books (going back a bit here!) portrayed Bord na Mona as a flagship indigenous industry, for Gods sake!

Bogs are special places. We as a nation thought for ages they were a place where you could get free fuel, dump cars, silage plastic & household rubbish etc. Even if we don't recognise we were wrong, the EU will teach us the hard way.

And I am ignoring all the global warming arguments, because the case for preserving bogs stands without that.

There is no conflict between domestic turf-cutting and peatland conservation. It is the commercial angle that is causing the problem.

LostCovey

I agree with the vast majority of what ur saying but unfortunately it seema from an active raises bog point of view domestic cutting is causing continied long term damage to the habitat. That's why all cutting is coming to an end on the 130 bogs. And that's why this isn't an attck on cutting as a pastime or as a green initiative as cutting is still allowed on the other 1500 bogs on the country.

djmc

I own bog and would not have a problem with it once I got proper compo ie.
free fuel for me and anyone who holds turbury rights on it forever which includes our childrens children etc. otherwise its just stealing,land grabing taking our assets and forceing us to pay for their carbon taxed oil.

dunsandin

LostCovey wrote: »

Yeah, kicking someone who disagrees with you would definitely convince me you were right & clear-thinking too.

God help us all.

LostCovey

PS if your forestry is an evergreen plantation, don't brag about what you are doing for wildlife, it's probably as sterile as the lunar surface.

1. I kicked no-one. Despite how much I would enjoy it.
2. Its an ancient broadleaf forest, the last of what was many hundreds of acres. It throngs with wildlife including Owls. Students from Trinity and UCD have visited because of its rare diversity.
3. Insert appropriate insult you might feel would fit this occasion.

Uriel.

djmc wrote: »

I own bog and would not have a problem with it once I got proper compo ie.
free fuel for me and anyone who holds turbury rights on it forever which includes our childrens children etc. otherwise its just stealing,land grabing taking our assets and forceing us to pay for their carbon taxed oil.

I'm not being smart but nobody is going to force you to buy oil. Have they announced a compo deal yet?

As a matter of interest, do you cut from your bogplot each year?