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Burka ban

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    #242
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    I'm religious and support the ban
    strobe wrote: »
    You can't fight fire with dynamite.

    Agree with everything you posted, but you choose a poor analogy. You can fight fire with dynamite.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_well_fire#Extinguishing_the_fires


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    #243
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    I'm religious and support the ban
    sink wrote: »
    Agree with everything you posted, but you choose a pour analogy. You can fight fire with dynamite.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_well_fire#Extinguishing_the_fires

    Blast!! You've made a fool of me yet again internet.


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    #244
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,575 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    liberté, egalité, doasisé.


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    #245
    Scotty #
    Registered Users Posts: 3,767 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    MrPudding wrote: »
    Why not? In fairness, there is a chance it might not, but it is most certainly not a forgone conclusion that it will not pass.

    There is no unqualified right to wear one.

    MrP
    I guess I just can't see a day where the ECOHR rules to restrict what clothing a person can or can't wear. A Europe (or Ireland) that tells me what I can and can't wear is not a Europe I want to be part of.

    Telling a person they must not wear something is equally is 'oppressive' as telling them they must wear something. No? I'd like the right to choose what I wear thank you.


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    #246
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    sink wrote: »
    I'm sorry I thought I mentioned "So long as they don't infringe on anyone else's freedom to do the same."

    I would have no problem with making it illegal for anyone to force other individuals to wear anything against their will. It's a question of how you enforce such a law without infringing upon the rights of those who choose to do so freely.

    I can relate to what you're saying, but in honesty I believe it flawed. That they choose to do this and aren't harming anyone else,so we should not interfere seems a reasonable argument, but I personally don't buy into this.
    Firstly there is a victim here, its the women herself coerced or educated into believing this is what she should do. Secondly this heinous practice is then further propagated onto any daughters she may have.

    It's an uncomfortable decision to make, but sometimes society as a whole must give up a supposed right in-order to protect the vulnerable.


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    #247
    Scotty #
    Registered Users Posts: 3,767 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Here's a clue as to what route the ECOHR might take....

    http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2010/02/european-human-rights-court-says-turkey.html


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    #248
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    It's an uncomfortable decision to make, but sometimes society as a whole must give up a supposed right in-order to protect the vulnerable.

    But you're not really protecting the vulnerable. You're making a cosmetic change only. Oppressed women are still going to be under the thumb of their oppressors. You've just forced it out of sight and in the process given the bigots ammunition to fire back at you in resistance against real fundamental change.


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    #249
    irishconvert
    Registered Users Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    irishconvert wrote: »
    If it is banned here and I decide to wear it, what do you think my punishment should be?
    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    what ever the law demands, why ?

    I want your opinion on what the punishment should be for someone who wears one. Should be a fine? Community service? Jail time?


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    #250
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    I think a fine is reasonable, though incarceration should not be ruled out for anyone who persistently breaks a law.


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    #251
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    sink wrote: »
    But you're not really protecting the vulnerable. You're making a cosmetic change only. Oppressed women are still going to be under the thumb of their oppressors. You've just forced it out of sight and in the process given the bigots ammunition to fire back at you in resistance against real fundamental change.
    I disagree, by not banning such practices society gives implicit support to them.
    A ban sends a clear unambiguous message that such behaviour is not acceptable to modern society.
    You may as well argue that husbands should be allowed beat their wives in public because if we ban that they'll just keep them at home and do it there.
    Sometimes you just have a face problem face on rather than try and dance around it.


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    #252
    irishconvert
    Registered Users Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    There are probably two kinds of women who wear Burqa
    1. Those who choose to do so as they believe it is an integral part of their religion
    2. Those who are pressurised by their husbands/family

    The ban is unfair firstly as is it forcing the first type of women to remove the burqa against their will. It is hypocritical to introduce a law which aims to stop opression of one group of people but has the effect of opressing another group of people. Secondly, the majority of both types of women above will probably just not leave their house anymore. So the net result is that the ban has taken even more freedom away from the women it claims to protect.


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    #253
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    I'm religious and support the ban
    irishconvert wrote: »
    There are probably two kinds of women who wear Burqa
    1. Those who choose to do so as they believe it is an integral part of their religion
    2. Those who are pressurised by their husbands/family

    The ban is unfair firstly as is it forcing the first type of women to remove the burqa against their will. It is hypocritical to introduce a law which aims to stop opression of one group of people but has the effect of opressing another group of people. Secondly, the majority of both types of women above will probably just not leave their house anymore. So the net result is that the ban has taken even more freedom away from the women it claims to protect.

    The second point is why they say they brought in the law alright. But I would like to know what they are basing this on. Have there been studies on the 2000 women who wear them? Has anyone even asked them? Or is this an assumption the french and a lot of people are making that if they are covering their face its because they are being told to?

    Even if it is there is no way this is going to make those women any more liberated


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    #254
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    I think a fine is reasonable, though incarceration should not be ruled out for anyone who persistently breaks a law.

    that really sounds like a horrible horrible country you find reasonable.


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    #255
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    irishconvert wrote: »
    Secondly, the majority of both types of women above will probably just not leave their house anymore.
    I'm not denying that, its certainly the case that this will happen.
    irishconvert wrote: »
    So the net result is that the ban has taken even more freedom away from the women it claims to protect.
    Perhaps initially it will, but long term it creates an environment where such practices become impractical.


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    #256
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    sensibleken wrote: »
    that really sounds like a horrible horrible country you find reasonable.
    You break a law you bear a consequence, its the way all functioning societies operate.


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    #257
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    I'm religious and support the ban
    No a good functioning society is fair to its citizens.

    There are such a thing as dumb laws, the blasphemy one for a start. Although punishments may exist for it, it does not mean its right.


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    #258
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    sensibleken wrote: »
    There are such a thing as dumb laws, the blasphemy one for a start. Although punishments may exist for it, it does not mean its right.
    And in this case I believe such a law would be both justified and fair, you don't such is life.
    If the weight of public opinion is for such a law it will go through otherwise it will not.


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    #259
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,575 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    Firstly there is a victim here, its the women herself coerced or educated into believing this is what she should do.
    we should ban excessive makeup, because women are being coerced into believing that they should wear it.


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    #260
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    we should ban excessive makeup, because women are being coerced into believing that they should wear it.
    Yes that exactly the same, very clever.


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    #261
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,575 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    my point was you cannot legislate for every single situation.


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    #262
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    my point was you cannot legislate for every single situation.
    You don't have too, just the ones that count ie. this case.


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    #263
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    sink wrote: »
    The only way to combat harmful ideas is with enlightenment.
    And how can the state encourage enlightenment when there exist religious schools whose purpose is to fight enlightenment by exercising the politics of identity, subtle group coercion, religious supremacy, the absolute nature of religious belief, and so on?

    In this case, the political fight is completely asymmetric -- the emotional side is going to trump the intellectual every time.
    sink wrote: »
    Oppressed women are still going to be under the thumb of their oppressors.
    Yes, but they'll be oppressed one inch less.
    sink wrote: »
    [...] in the process given the bigots ammunition to fire back at you in resistance against real fundamental change.
    And you'll also have drawn a line in the sand against such bigots.


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    #264
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    my point was you cannot legislate for every single situation.

    So dont legislate for any?


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    #265
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    irishconvert wrote: »
    1. Those who choose to do so as they believe it is an integral part of their religion

    The fact that they are wrong has no bearing, does it? The burka is a cultural invention, not an islamic invention.
    irishconvert wrote: »
    There are probably two kinds of women who wear Burqa
    1. Those who choose to do so as they believe it is an integral part of their religion
    2. Those who are pressurised by their husbands/family

    The ban is unfair firstly as is it forcing the first type of women to remove the burqa against their will. It is hypocritical to introduce a law which aims to stop opression of one group of people but has the effect of opressing another group of people. Secondly, the majority of both types of women above will probably just not leave their house anymore. So the net result is that the ban has taken even more freedom away from the women it claims to protect.

    Wether the people in the first group recognise it or not, they are being oppressed. The fact that they accept this oppression, because it has been bred into them since birth, or fulfils some need they didn't get in their native religon, is irrelevent, they are being oppressed and it should be stopped.
    irishconvert wrote: »
    So the net result is that the ban has taken even more freedom away from the women it claims to protect.

    These women are still free to go out, its their own arbitrary and nonsensical limitations that will stop them (assuming its not their husbands).


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    #266
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,575 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    robindch wrote: »
    And how can the state encourage enlightenment when there exist religious schools whose purpose is to fight enlightenment by exercising the politics of identity, subtle group coercion, religious supremacy, the absolute nature of religious belief, and so on?
    hang on, it's one thing legislating for what people wear on their faces, it's an entirely different matter when it comes to regulating schools. i've no beef with regulation of schools to make sure that the school follows a defined curriculum and does not have one set of rules for one group of students and another set for a different group.

    telling a grown adult what she (or he) cannot wear in public is a different matter.


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    #267
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,575 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Wether the people in the first group recognise it or not, they are being oppressed. The fact that they accept this oppression, because it has been bred into them since birth, or fulfils some need they didn't get in their native religon, is irrelevent, they are being oppressed and it should be stopped.
    and you cannot legislate against stupidity or ignorance. whatever the reasons these women choose to wear the burka, once they are adults, it's their choice.


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    #268
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    hang on, it's one thing legislating for what people wear on their faces, it's an entirely different matter when it comes to regulating schools.
    I was responding to sink's point that women will refuse to wear a burka if they've been "enlightened". It's simply not the case.
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    and you cannot legislate against stupidity or ignorance.
    Yes you can, that's what, say, the rules of the road and traffic cops are there for.
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    whatever the reasons these women choose to wear the burka, once they are adults, it's their choice.
    It's not a choice when there's no choice.


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    #269
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,575 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    robindch wrote: »
    Yes you can, that's what, say, the rules of the road and traffic cops are there for.
    not the same argument. you're legislating against some very real results of ignorance (the rules of the road and the traffic cops are the means to an end), not the ignorance itself.
    i hate the phrase 'nanny state'. but in this case, it's as close a term as can be used.


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    #270
    irishconvert
    Registered Users Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    robindch wrote: »
    .It's not a choice when there's no choice.

    With an attitude like that it sounds like you'd feel more at home living in Saudi Arabia than a free democratic society where people have freedoms of choice and expression.


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    #271
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    irishconvert wrote: »
    With an attitude like that it sounds like you'd feel more at home living in Saudi Arabia than a free democratic society where people have freedoms of choice and expression.
    Having travelled widely within the Middle East, it's quite clear that it's naive to think, and silly to pretend, that wearing a burka has anything at all to do with freedom, choice or expression.

    This debate is about returning freedom to people who've had it stolen from them.


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