Burka ban

robindch

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

donegalfella wrote: »

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Yes, and I'm saying that while I'm no fan in general of slippery slope arguments, I think in this case, they're appropriate. I've been to these places and seen what a somewhere under religious control is like and I'm fully with the Belges in not wanting this on my doorstep.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Yes, I've said before that there must be some portion of the female population who do wear it fully freely. However, I would expect the percentage to be very low and I don't see why we should oblige an unpleasant custom for the sake of that percentage, while discommoding the far greater portion of the population who either object to it but have no choice but to wear it, or who are incapable of making a free choice in the first place.

Permabear

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robindch

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

iUseVi wrote: »

Actually, how many women will you see? I thought it was mostly men on streets?

There are some women out walking, but only when "guarded" by their husband or a close male relative. Western women are not allowed out on their own, or in groups, without a western man (they don't check that you're related or married). And if western women did go out on their own, my contacts told me that they'd be heckled or worse back to their hotels in short order either by the religious police or their street lackeys -- it was regarded as a dangerous thing to do.

Things are faintly more relaxed behind closed doors, but not in public and I'll never forget the heart-stoppingly beautiful woman who sat at the next table to me in the hotel restaurant one evening, and who took off her veil -- though it was only perched precariously on the back of her head -- and was immediately asked to put it back on by the waiter. The look of pure venom she shot him could have done for a thousand ranting mullahs.

robindch

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

donegalfella wrote: »

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Not from becoming Tehran -- which is what a religiously-controlled city looks like -- but as I make quite clear in this post, from Belgium becoming Holland where film-makers and politicians have been murdered, and where the far-right is on the march in response.

Again as I said before, pretending that this debate is about a single principle, while ignoring the wider social context within which this principle is supposed to be applied, is not a very useful approach.

Mark Hamill

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Has this news piece been posted yet?

Police stop Muslim woman wearing veil in Italy

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8658017.stm

The husbands response has been recorded in the daily mail:

Unemployed Ben Salah Braim, 36, said: 'I just don't know where we are going to get 500 euros to pay the fine.

'We thought as she was going to the mosque she was OK to wear the burka.

'We knew about the law and I know that (the law) is not against my religion but now Amel will have to stay indoors. I can't have other men looking at her.

'If the law says she can't wear one then she will have to stay inside night and day. There is nothing I can do.'

Morbert

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

We knew about the law and I know that (the law) is not against my religion but now Amel will have to stay indoors. I can't have other men looking at her.

This is testament to the fact that the burka is not a religious practise, but rather the invention of socially maladjusted, unhealthy males with the security and self-esteem of a particularly small pomeranian.

If his ass isn't locked up for false imprisonment then a protest of some sort is definitely in order. It has to be made perfectly clear that this attitude towards women is entirely unacceptable.

ChocolateSauce

I'm religious and support the ban

Banning the Burka is a cosmetic solution to a very deep problem.

Apart from the fact that I feel states shouldn't have the power to dictate dress to people (and this goes both ways-I think nudity laws should be abolished), a point I'm sure Donegalfella has articulated well, I don't think a ban actually addresses the problem, which is that a deeply sexist and conservative culture and religion is being imported into the west from abroad and propagated by fundamentalists whose abhorrent views and practices aren't welcome.

The solution isn't to reduce the freedom of people (taking away freedom to propagate freedom will just leave us with less freedom overall), it is to take reasonable steps to ensure people with attitudes and values fundamentally at odds with civilised and ethical values like gender equality and freedom of speech are not permitted to immigrate to our countries, and also to go to lengths to ensure that women who choose to wear the full veil are actually choosing to do so for their own reasons, not because they feel they have to or because they're being forced. Heavy punishments should exist for men who force women and children to wear the veil.

Zillah

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Heavy punishments should exist for men who force women and children to wear the veil.

I would love to see how you intend to enforce this.

robindch

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I don't think a ban actually addresses the problem [...] Heavy punishments should exist for men who force women and children to wear the veil.

You're saying that the law should replace something that is, by design, easy to police, with something that's virtually impossible to police?

What exact law would you propose instead of the burqa ban, and what instructions would you provide to the police to help implement it?

ColmDawson

I'm religious and support the ban

I agree with bits of what you three above me have said. I don't want people walking around with their faces fully covered. I don't want to see governments telling people what kind of clothing they may or may not wear (though I must admit part of me relishes any setback to religion). I think education is the answer, rather than trying to get rid of forced burqa-wearing with practically unenforceable laws.

strobe

I'm religious and support the ban

Zillah wrote: »

I would love to see how you intend to enforce this.

How do they enforce punishments for men that sexualy abuse women and children in thier own families?

Like that.

Zillah

strobe wrote: »

How do they enforce punishments for men that sexualy abuse women and children in thier own families?

Like that.

With medical examinations and forensic evidence, coupled with testimony garnered from victims after they are removed from the custody of their guardians?

Convincing a woman to testify against her abusive husband is pretty difficult even when faced with the prospect of being physically beaten or killed. Maybe you can envisage women risk being ostracised from their communities to testify against being coerced into wearing the burkha but I don't see it.

strobe

I'm religious and support the ban

Zillah wrote: »

Convincing a woman to testify against her abusive husband is pretty difficult even when faced with the prospect of being physically beaten or killed. Maybe you can envisage women risk being ostracised from their communities to testify against being coerced into wearing the burkha but I don't see it.

Everything you said there could have been said about wives that were the victims of domestic abuse a few years ago. I don't see any difference in the enforcement. Step one: make it a crime, step two: let the victims know they will be supported, step three: profit. I don't think things will change overnight, they didn't with domestic abuse, and there are still women that won't testify against their husbands in that situation. But as far as I can see the attempted enforcement should proceed along the exact same lines. It is defeatist to simply say it's un-enforcable.

Zillah

I think the fundamental difference between domestic abuse and the burka issue is one of motivation: A woman who is under the thumb of an abusive and domineering man can break out of that cycle because she is in very real danger of serious and ongoing injury or even death. The consequences of continuing to wear a burka are no where near that in terms of severity and therefore lack the motivating factor.

I agree that we should not avoid doing something just because it is difficult, but I think describing my very real practical concerns as defeatism is a little disingenuous.

old_aussie

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

A gunman wearing a black burka got away with a bag of cash after a holdup in Sydney(Australia).
The man drove to a shopping centre in Hurstville (suburb of Sydney) drew his gun, grabberd the cash and fled.

Sooner the ban the burka in Australia the better.

Source, Illawarra Mercury.. 7 May 2010 Page 9

Rev Hellfire

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Unemployed Ben Salah Braim wrote:

'If the law says she can't wear one then she will have to stay inside night and day. There is nothing I can do.'

A good start would be unlocking the door to let her out :rolleyes:

ChocolateSauce

I'm religious and support the ban

Zillah wrote: »

I would love to see how you intend to enforce this.

I'm not a law enforcer, don't look to me for how! Although it would seem to me that all a woman (who feels oppressed) needs to do is report her family to the police. Also, I imagine having extremely harsh punishments for this kind of thing would seriously deter men from doing it in the first place.

Robindch wrote:

You're saying that the law should replace something that is, by design, easy to police, with something that's virtually impossible to police?

What exact law would you propose instead of the burqa ban, and what instructions would you provide to the police to help implement it?

With the exception of instances of coercion, I don't think this is a problem which a government should address (with the exception of vetting immigrants from conservative Muslim-majority countries). I do think government shouldn't accomodate it or support the burka, but neither should it dictate that it is unacceptable. So the answer is the government should do what it has been doing for years about the burka: Nothing.

Any laws regarding punishments for men who force women to do it should be addressed under existing anti-slavery laws (maybe minor modifications would be needed, I don't know, I'm not a lawyer). Maybe other things like a public awareness campaign? Or a requirement that Mosques report to the police anyone the Imams suspect of forcing their female relatives to wear it (most Imams are against the full veil)?

At the end of the day, I do admit that my opposition to a ban is based heavily on the principle of limited government power; I accept that, choice or no, the women who wear such garments aren't really choosing to- they've been conditioned to accept it - but banning it won't undo that conditioning, it will only force the problem underground, like the drugs and prostitution bans which have worked so well. Only the decline of Islam and conservative culture will see this social phenomenon go. As it is, only the extreme wing of conservative Muslims support the burka as an obligation, and it looks like that is a very small number in the west.

Finally, I reject the slippery slope argument I've seen invoked earlier in the thread. It is a slippery slope, yes, but invoking that argument suggests one thinks it is actually okay to set foot on the slope in the first place, but that it is unwise to do so because one might fall somewhere down the line- I don't think it is okay to step on the slope at all, not one inch.

irishconvert

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

(most Imams are against the full veil)?

Most are. Only last week I witnessed the Imam in a London Mosque ask a woman why she was covering her face and telling her she should take it off as it is not required.

Stercus Accidit

I'm religious and support the ban

The banning of the burka is xenophobic kneejerk legislation which will damage womens freedoms even more.

Given the nature of islamists to take their religion very seriously, you are more likely to be enforcing a life sentence house arrest than forcing 'liberal'(LOL) values on muslims.

I've seen the ninja women around Dublin before and as sad as I find their lot in life, I won't see them confined to their homes until they die for my peace of mind.

irishconvert

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

The banning of the burka is xenophobic kneejerk legislation which will damage womens freedoms even more.

Given the nature of islamists to take their religion very seriously, you are more likely to be enforcing a life sentence house arrest than forcing 'liberal'(LOL) values on muslims.

I've seen the ninja women around Dublin before and as sad as I find their lot in life, I won't see them confined to their homes until they die for my peace of mind.

The best thing to do is try to educate the women who choose to wear it (I say choose becuase the only women I know who wear it choose to do so) that it is not necessary in Islam.

ironingbored

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

donegalfella wrote: »

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That would be Saudi Arabia, Iran, Libya, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, to name but a few.

coffee_cake

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

The banning of the burka is xenophobic kneejerk legislation which will damage womens freedoms even more.

Given the nature of islamists to take their religion very seriously

It's not IN their religion.

ironingbored

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Has this news piece been posted yet?

Police stop Muslim woman wearing veil in Italy

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8658017.stm

Italy has had a problem for some time with Muslim women refusing to remove head dress for obligatory photos for the national ID card.

In my opinion, if you don't like the rules you don't have to stay and are free to return to the utopia that are countries practising sharia law.

What really gets my goat are the Muslim demonstrators in Britain with their "Islam will dominate the world" and "Sharia law in Britain" placards. Again, if you want to live in a country in which sharia is practised, I'm sure British Airways can get you there!

kiffer

I'm religious and support the ban

ironingbored wrote: »

Italy has had a problem for some time with Muslim women refusing to remove head dress for obligatory photos for the national ID card.

In my opinion, if you don't like the rules you don't have to stay and are free to return to the utopia that are countries practising sharia law.

What really gets my goat are the Muslim demonstrators in Britain with their "Islam will dominate the world" and "Sharia law in Britain" placards. Again, if you want to live in a country in which sharia is practised, I'm sure British Airways can get you there!

They're trapped by the law! They can't leave because in order to get on the plane they have to show their face! ;-)

Stercus Accidit

I'm religious and support the ban

bluewolf wrote: »

It's not IN their religion.

Doesn't matter, some aul eejits are forcing their wives to wear burka's regardless, its being banned regardless, they will be prisoners in their own homes, regardless.

Theology isn't going to solve this problem alone.

mardybumbum

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Morbert wrote: »

This is testament to the fact that the burka is not a religious practise, but rather the invention of socially maladjusted, unhealthy males with the security and self-esteem of a particularly small pomeranian.

There was a thread in AH about the burka a few months ago, and it was amazing to see how many people didn't get this.

robindch

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

I've seen the ninja women around Dublin before and as sad as I find their lot in life, I won't see them confined to their homes until they die for my peace of mind.

And of the ones confined to their homes, how many have you seen?

Stercus Accidit

I'm religious and support the ban

robindch wrote: »

And of the ones confined to their homes, how many have you seen?

Is this a trick question?

mehfesto

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Is this a trick question?

Obviously.






No one has ever seen a ninja

legspin

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

mehfesto wrote: »

No one has ever seen a ninja

Until it's too late ...