Burka ban

magicbastarder

I'm religious and support the ban

i think resistance to the burka needs to come from within islam itself; this is just going to turn the burka into a cause celebre for the hardliners. and isolate the women who it is supposed to protect.

magicbastarder

I'm religious and support the ban

and to clarify what i said about refusing to interact with someone in a public facing role; if it's simply someone queueing in a shop to buy a lotto ticket, it'd take quite a prickly individual to refuse to serve them. i more had in mind the situation where there was a need to hold a proper dialogue.

mehfesto

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Off topic, but I can never read this thread title without thinking of yer man outta FoneJacker saying 'Kurt Cobain'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KbH49ssItI

Anyway, I agree that you can't have a 'fashion police' of sorts, telling people what they can and can't wear, but at the same time, for those forced to do wear one, it gives them a get out clause.

And sure they dont have to wear the full one, right? The hijab is all that's required, isn't it?

But I'm sure as hell not gonna call it either way - leave it to the religious to give you the answers to the hard questions in life. :P

MrVestek

Mark Hamill wrote: »

If they are being oppressed, either actively (by husbands, families) or passively (being brought up to accept the oppression as normal) do you think they would even look for that education?

They may end up coming across it via other means. The point is is that be it right or wrong in our eyes it's part of their culture.

Let me ask you this... what are we doing by banning the Burka? Some would call that oppression...

Dr. Baltar

I'm religious and support the ban

I don't think this banning of Burkas is a religious question, it's about political freedoms.
I now no longer have the right to wear a Burka in France or Beligium. (Granted, I never would wear one unless it was Halloween, but seriously, this seems to be taking away civil rights rather than creating more.

Zombrex

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Isn't that law essentially describing the burka itself (replace "alone in a car" with "in the presence of a man, face uncovered")?

The burka isn't a law.

I hope you would agree there is a difference between a woman saying "I don't want to be alone in a car with a man" with a law that says woman cannot be alone in a car with a man.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

But it is coercion. Sure it might not be all active coercion (with a male figure holding the reigns) but even being brought up to believe this is coercion.

You could say that about anything. Ultimately people have a right to choose to do something stupid because they believe their particular sky god wants them to because they were taught this by their father.

Are we going to outlaw religion now?

Mark Hamill wrote: »

It is not something that is there to benefit the woman, it is to reinforce male dominance, which is wrong, wether the women recognise or not.

So coercing women to do something because you feel it is the best thing for them even if they disagree, is wrong (ie Muslims encouraging or forcing women to wear a burka because they think Allah requires it),

but enacting a law that forces women to do something because you think it is the best thing for them, even if they disagree, is ok?

Christ I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. :pac:

What is the difference between a Muslim father saying to his Muslim daughter You have to wear the burka, this is for your own good, and the state saying to a Muslim woman You cannot wear the burka, this is for your own good

When did we decide that all Muslim women are incapable of deciding what is for their own good?

Rev Hellfire

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Wicknight wrote: »

Are we going to outlaw religion now?

Ohh goodie, you mean we can do that. Thats a much better solution, you've got my vote.

Zombrex

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Ohh goodie, you mean we can do that. Thats a much better solution, you've got my vote.

Do you believe people have the right to do stupid things in the name of religion so long as they are not harming others or seriously harming themselves?

robindch

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Wicknight wrote: »

Do you believe people have the right to do stupid things in the name of religion so long as they are not harming others or seriously harming themselves?

Do you not accept that women are being oppressed?

Morbert

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

I can see where Wicknight is coming from, and if the burqa was just something silly or dumb then I would agree: live and let live.

However, the history of women in islam tells us the burqa is not just something silly, but something deeply dark and sinister, a dangerous cult practise.

magicbastarder

I'm religious and support the ban

robindch wrote: »

Do you not accept that women are being oppressed?

and they would argue that you are oppressing them by prohibiting their religious practice. since they are the ones who will be affected, their opinion is the one which matters.

MrPudding

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

magicbastarder wrote: »

and they would argue that you are oppressing them by prohibiting their religious practice. since they are the ones who will be affected, their opinion is the one which matters.

To me this seems a little like the law on statutory rape, please note, I am merely making a comparison of legal principles, not directly comparing one with the other.

A girl below a certain age is legally considered to be unable to consent to sex. As a result, even when she has apparently consented to intercourse, it is still rape.

I think there are parallels between this and a burka ban. Obviously the wearers of the burka are not children, they are adults, but the law seems to be saying that, like young children consenting to sex, their consenting to wearing the burka is flawed, and therefore is not really consent at all.

If a woman is brought up to believe her religion requires her to wear one, or that bad things will happen to her if she doesn't, can you really say she voluntarily consents to wearing it?

MrP

magicbastarder

I'm religious and support the ban

MrPudding wrote: »

I think there are parallels between this and a burka ban. Obviously the wearers of the burka are not children, they are adults, but the law seems to be saying that, like young children consenting to sex, their consenting to wearing the burka is flawed, and therefore is not really consent at all.

what would you say to a woman not brought up in a strict muslim household but who opted to wear the burka in adulthood? i'd guarantee you they exist.
i know where you're going with the above argument, but that law comes into play precisely because they are children and deemed not mature enough to consent; using the same principle on a sane adult doesn't wash.

MrPudding

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

magicbastarder wrote: »

what would you say to a woman not brought up in a strict muslim household but who opted to wear the burka in adulthood? i'd guarantee you they exist.

I would not doubt for a second that they exist, but again, if you are told it is the rule of the club and you can't get in without it what are you going to do? Additionally, in my experience, purely anecdotal mind you, people who come into a religion later in life seem to attack it with a certain vigour. I would also suggest that there would be a considerable amount of peer pressure to conform.

magicbastarder wrote: »

i know where you're going with the above argument, but that law comes into play precisely because they are children and deemed not mature enough to consent; using the same principle on a sane adult doesn't wash.

A person that has been brainwashed can no more give consent that a child can.

MrP

magicbastarder

I'm religious and support the ban

the people who we are talking about are not mentally retarded. you seem to have a disturbing contempt for their intelligence and for their freedom of choice.

one of the funny things about freedom of choice is that it gives them the right to opt for something which is usually synonymous with lack of choice. that's their decision, not yours.

Scotty #

I'm religious and support the ban

Mabel Clever Brush wrote: »

I dont see it that way. It's more like:

Wear what you want as long as you dont conceal your face when in Public.

sonicthebadger* wrote: »

Exactly, you can't wear it going but you can wear it when you get there. No need for an exception.

So you want to live in a society were dark sunglasses are banned in public? Your scarf must be below your chin? Where your hood can only come to the top of your forehead, any lower and you may be arrested!?! Brides, Irish ones, can no longer wear veils?

Do any of the pro-ban people actually realise what YOU will have to give up to see this ban go through? I doubt it. But then again... I see this ban as purely an anti-Islam ban (As it more or less openly is in France) and has very little to do with the oppression of women. If people really wanted to combat the oppression of women then why start with one that effects so few?

MrPudding

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

magicbastarder wrote: »

the people who we are talking about are not mentally retarded. you seem to have a disturbing contempt for their intelligence and for their freedom of choice.

Sorry, perhaps you could show me where I said they were mentally retarded? I have a general contempt for religion, I will freely admit that, but I do not believe that all religious people are stupid, retarded or mentally deficient in some other way. That said, I do struggle to understand how some seemingly intelligent people seem to suspend the reasoning and critical thinking they apply to other aspects of their life when it comes to their chosen religion, not everyone's mind, just their religion.

Perhaps you think brainwashing is a form of mental retardation? Maybe that is where the confusion comes from. Let me make my position very clear. I do not consider brainwashing to be likened to mental retardation.

What I do consider it to be is a barrier to making informed and rational choices.

magicbastarder wrote: »

one of the funny things about freedom of choice is that it gives them the right to opt for something which is usually synonymous with lack of choice. that's their decision, not yours.

Freedom of choice is great, assuming of course you have freedom of choice.

Slightly off topic, but what the hey. When I was 16 two kids from Belfast joined our class. They had left Belfast after the boy had gotten himself into a bit of a pickle with paramilitaries for anti-social behaviour. They were both very bright academically. Additionally, both of them genuinely believed that they had never once in their entire lives met a protestant. And they knew this because for all their lives there parents had told them that protestants were really ugly and smelt really bad. As they had met no people that fitted this general description they had obviously met no protestants. Retarded? No. Stupid? Absolutely not, two of the smartest kids in our class. Brainwashed? Yes.

The power that a person in authority has over a developing brain is enormous. You talk about these woman having the freedom to choose to wear the burka and freely choosing to wear it. I say that choice is simply an illusion.

MrP

magicbastarder

I'm religious and support the ban

you compared the mental faculties (i.e. the ability to know their own mind) of a grown adult to that of a child, which implied they're not the full shilling.

i'd love to know what you'd say to an articulate, intelligent woman who would want to wear a burka. would you tell her that she was not qualified to make the choice to wear it?

MrPudding

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

magicbastarder wrote: »

you compared the mental faculties (i.e. the ability to know their own mind) of a grown adult to that of a child, which implied they're not the full shilling.

No, I said they were brainwashed. As I took pains to explain, whilst you might equate brainwashing with mental retardation, I do not.

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'd love to know what you'd say to an articulate, intelligent woman who would want to wear a burka. would you tell her that she was not qualified to make the choice to wear it?

Have you never met an articulate intelligent person that had flawed thinking? I met two very articulate and very intelligent 16 year olds that genuinely believed they had never once met a protestant.

MrP

magicbastarder

I'm religious and support the ban

MrPudding wrote: »

Have you never met an articulate intelligent person that had flawed thinking?

sure i have. they probably thought my reasoning was flawed. but neither of us decided that legal prohibition was a way of gaining the upper hand in the argument.

Beruthiel

Wicknight wrote: »

When did we decide that all Muslim women are incapable of deciding what is for their own good?

In an awful lot of cases, that is just not an option for them. Many of them pay the price for going against family rules. Some even die for it.
Not that this ban will make a damn bit of difference to that sort of crap.

MrVestek

I wear a bow tie. Bow ties are cool.

Should I be banned from wearing the bow tie because my future ex-wife and current bit on the side think it looks awful? No...

Should I be banned from wearing it because the world thinks that bow ties are awful? No...

Same with the Burka. The argument for alot of this seems to be 'ohhhh they're obscuring their identity... they could rob a bank' etc etc.

When was the last time you saw the Might Morphin Burka Bank Robbers in their latest escapades? Yeah I don't remember that ever happening either...

Hasn't anyone here ever worn a scarf and a coat when they were cold? I bet all people could see were your eyes...

Scotty #

I'm religious and support the ban

MrPudding wrote: »

No, I said they were brainwashed. As I took pains to explain, whilst you might equate brainwashing with mental retardation, I do not.

Similar to the brainwashing of Americans/Europeans that all Islamics are suicide bombers and oppressors of women? That kind of brainwashing?

old_aussie

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Achilles wrote: »

I wear a bow tie. Bow ties are cool.

When was the last time you saw the Might Morphin Burka Bank Robbers in their latest escapades? Yeah I don't remember that ever happening either...

http://themoderatevoice.com/71590/male-robber-wearing-burka-sparks-debate-in-australia-over-banning-the-burka/


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1273914/Robber-wearing-burka-leads-raiders-jewellery-shop-heist.html

http://celebrifi.com/gossip/Male-Robber-Wearing-Burka-Sparks-Debate-in-Australia-Over-Banning-the-Burka-2443053.html

http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2010/02/07/burqa-wearing-robbers-hold-up-a-french-post-office/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/7189090/Burka-wearing-gunmen-raid-French-bank.html

There's another 20 plus pages of links on Google alone

irishconvert

Has the French government had any kind of consultation process with women who wear the burqa? Or have they decided to ban this without even getting the view of the people it will affect?

irishconvert

old_aussie wrote: »

http://themoderatevoice.com/71590/male-robber-wearing-burka-sparks-debate-in-australia-over-banning-the-burka/


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1273914/Robber-wearing-burka-leads-raiders-jewellery-shop-heist.html

http://celebrifi.com/gossip/Male-Robber-Wearing-Burka-Sparks-Debate-in-Australia-Over-Banning-the-Burka-2443053.html

http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2010/02/07/burqa-wearing-robbers-hold-up-a-french-post-office/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/7189090/Burka-wearing-gunmen-raid-French-bank.html

There's another 20 plus pages of links on Google alone

People also wear clown masks when robbing banks. Do you want to ban them also?

Dades

irishconvert, would you prefer if people were honest in that their support for the ban stems from a dislike of Islam seeping into their own culture?

Would that make such a ban easier to accept than if people said it was right solely on the basis of "women's rights"?

irishconvert

Dades wrote: »

irishconvert, would you prefer if people were honest in that their support for the ban stems from a dislike of Islam seeping into their own culture?

Would that make such a ban easier to accept than if people said it was right solely on the basis of "women's rights"?

Yes, I think it is best if people are honest. It's easier to deal with a problem if people voice their real concerns.

robindch

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

irishconvert wrote: »

Yes, I think it is best if people are honest. It's easier to deal with a problem if people voice their real concerns.

Are you saying that you believe that people are just pretending to be concerned about the oppression of women?

Dades

robindch wrote: »

Are you saying that you believe that people are just pretending to be concerned about the oppression of women?

tbh, I'd say some people voicing their support are. :pac:

That said, the real reason - i.e. a dislike of Islamic culture - will no doubt be partly because of it's treatment of women. So it's not a clear cut distinction.