Third-level fees have to come back

monosharp

Just a comment about the university rankings.

Several people here have claimed Irelands universities are not 'top-class' because they are not in the top 100/200 etc of some list. Well bollox.

Heres an example list. http://www.arwu.org/ARWU2009.jsp

From numbers 1 to 19 you have nothing but American and British Universities.

Straight away you should notice how there's a complete lack of non-English speaking institutions until #20. Does anyone honestly believe that Germany, France, Japan, China, Sweden, Italy etc don't have a University that would come into the top 10 if these criteria were anything but completely biased ?

Are all the really intelligent people in the world native English speakers ? Its complete bollox.

On quality of education these lists mean almost nothing. The top ranks are based on nothing more than fame, wealth, and exclusivity. The quality of their education or graduates have almost nothing to do with it.

You have Universities in the US teaching creationism :eek: that are ranked higher then excellent educational institutions in other parts of the world. Its nonsense.

G.W graduated from Yale ffs. You really think he got to go to a 'great' school because of his superior intelligence ?

edit: Oh yeah, bring in fees for people who can afford them.

Flamed Diving

monosharp wrote: »

Just a comment about the university rankings.

Several people here have claimed Irelands universities are not 'top-class' because they are not in the top 100/200 etc of some list. Well bollox.

Heres an example list. http://www.arwu.org/ARWU2009.jsp

From numbers 1 to 19 you have nothing but American and British Universities.

Straight away you should notice how there's a complete lack of non-English speaking institutions until #20. Does anyone honestly believe that Germany, France, Japan, China, Sweden, Italy etc don't have a University that would come into the top 10 if these criteria were anything but completely biased ?

Are all the really intelligent people in the world native English speakers ? Its complete bollox.

On quality of education these lists mean almost nothing. The top ranks are based on nothing more than fame, wealth, and exclusivity. The quality of their education or graduates have almost nothing to do with it.

You have Universities in the US teaching creationism :eek: that are ranked higher then excellent educational institutions in other parts of the world. Its nonsense.

G.W graduated from Yale ffs. You really think he got to go to a 'great' school because of his superior intelligence ?

edit: Oh yeah, bring in fees for people who can afford them.

This wouldn't be the first time that I have made this kind of statement on this forum, but...

You can learn a lot about a study by reading the 'methodology':

http://www.arwu.org/ARWUMethodology2009.jsp

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

anymore

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Seconded, with grants provided to those from low-income families.

Lets pretend we line in a democratic republic for a minute, if we are going to charge, them charge everyone. Many in the less well off category have better cash flow than many indebted self-supporting middle class people.

anymore

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You are aware of how many hundred million people live in the US, dont you <
P.S did you you have to pay fees for your education ?

Flamed Diving

anymore wrote: »

Lets pretend we line in a democratic republic for a minute, if we are going to charge, them charge everyone. Many in the less well off category have better cash flow than many indebted self-supporting middle class people.

Hi anymore, my name is Flamed Diving. You may not have encountered me before, but, for me, simply making statements is never sufficient evidence for such a claim. Unless you are willing to back it up with data, then I will never take such positions seriously.

Thanks, and good luck!

PeakOutput

anymore wrote: »

You are aware of how many hundred million people live in the US, dont you <
P.S did you you have to pay fees for your education ?

if the number was just related to size of population then it would be more evenly spread out between the universities

if you really think that the only reason these universities constantly reach the top of independant lists is elitism then i guess there is not much we can say accept, with respect, you dont know what your talking about

anymore

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Hi anymore, my name is Flamed Diving. You may not have encountered me before, but, for me, simply making statements is never sufficient evidence for such a claim. Unless you are willing to back it up with data, then I will never take such positions seriously.

Thanks, and good luck!

Flamed Diving, why are you assuming i am especially concerned whether you take my posts seriousuly or not ?

I am sure if you make the effort on Goggle, you will be able to dig up the story of the unemployed married man who is getting in the region of € 38,000 from all his different benefits. However instead of being grateful, the story came to light, because he was complaining !
No doubt he is one of the ' Vulnerable' who would qualify for grants.

anymore

PeakOutput wrote: »

if the number was just related to size of population then it would be more evenly spread out between the universities

if you really think that the only reason these universities constantly reach the top of independant lists is elitism then i guess there is not much we can say accept, with respect, you dont know what your talking about

I didnt say it was totally related to population size as you would realise if you thought about my post.
I was merely commenting on one factor. I am sure we all realise that is a complex area and not al the simplistic one. It would be nice if the thread reflects this.
Could you tell me where I mentioned elitism ?

Flamed Diving

anymore wrote: »

Flamed Diving, why are you assuming i am especially concerned whether you take my posts seriousuly or not ?

I am sure if you make the effort on Goggle, you will be able to dig up the story of the unemployed married man who is getting in the region of € 38,000 from all his different benefits. However instead of being grateful, the story came to light, because he was complaining !
No doubt he is one of the ' Vulnerable' who would qualify for grants.

1) This is another post of vacuous claims

2) Anecdotal evidence, while not useless, is nothing compared to actual data

You are not saying anything, no matter how strongly you believe you are. You should not be concerned with whether I take you seriously, but whether anything you say should be taken seriously by... anyone.

mahamageehad

Flamed Diving wrote: »

I have seen these threads a few times on Irish forums, and I always see this type of post.
...
As far as I see it, the only people who lose out are students from middle-class families, who won't be able to afford their own car and a J1 holiday every summer.

Oh my god, this is possibly the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard.

John Lynch Ph.D wrote: »

Terrible idea.

And why are people so for the idea of providing free education to students from only low income family's? again after again these students have proven to be the under performers in college, and that is FACT, the basic reality is they come from low income family's for a reason and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.


...

No, I was wrong, this is worse.

amacachi wrote: »

1% extra tax on earnings for those with degrees? Would near enough cover the costs.

At the same time I wouldn't really care if fees were brought back, as long as there's a proper loans system.

One point that hasn't been mentioned yet- current taxes! Graduates tend to earn more than non-graduates- €10,000 according to a previous post. This means they pay more taxes. We are already paying our own way! The universities are in debt and need some cash? Guess what. So does everyone these days.

I think the whole mentality of this country, particularly FF supporters is ridiculous. Lets pick on the people who can't do anything about it and let the wealthy away unhindered. For example until recently millionaire horse owners paid no tax, but nurses always have. Superstars like Bono that are reeling in the money pay their taxes in another country, but workers on minimum wage contribute? We can find money to bail out the banks, but not to help students? Why is it always the less well off in society, or the elderly who have to take the burden?

If fees had been around a few years ago, I wouldn't be in college now. I couldn't afford it. I love how people throw around the word loan like there's nothing to it. I already have a loan. And a part time job. But it's not enough. Not all of us are paid for out of daddys pocket. The full grant is €3,420. At the most a student can work 20 hours a week and even at that some can't manage it. Roughly €150 of wages. Now, these days that isn't even definite due to the lack of jobs. Most students that are trying to support themselves. How is it fair to saddle them with debt for the rest of their lives?

Increase the taxes for the ridiculous "administrative" positions, both public and private. Slash Cowen's salary- he's not worth more than Obama. Get rid of the Oireachtas.

The only students I think need to be looked at are the aforementioned "dossers" there for the college experience. I think that anyone who drops out during or after first year without a valid reason should have to pay back their maintenance grant.

Oh and that much money for building work is just silly- i'm sure NAMA have plently of vacant buildings lying around they'd only love to get rid of!

Sleepy

I believe a states primary duty to it's citizens (outside of the provision of a equitable legal system) involves providing three essential services: health, security and education.

While having third-level education free for all is desirable, it seems to be unaffordable.

I'm wondering if a merit based, tiered approach is the best course of action?

Focus our resources on making one or two of our universities (say UL and Trinity) world class in the most vital areas of education. Eliminate their humanities courses and adopt a targeted focus on science, technology, engineering, pure maths etc. Fund these universities better than the others and set the entry level high based on Leaving Cert results, application essays etc. in order to attract the best and brightest to these universities. Set the fees high for these universities (say 20k per year).

Use another university (say NUI, Galway) to provide the high end business and legal courses at a similar funding and fee level, again using high entry requirements to ensure that only those with the ability and determination to graduate will gain entry.

Leave many of our current universities as they are, providing average degrees in Science, Arts, Business, Law etc. for average students at an average cost (say 10k per year).

Use other universities (perhaps the current IT's?) to provide free or low cost diploma level courses for those not prepared to pay upwards of 30k for their education or accademically incapable of attaining the higher levels.

The keys to success of a model like this are imho a more rigourous testing of entrants ability, ensuring that loans/grants/scholorships are available to provide access for any student to the level of education for which they're capable.

I may be wrong in some of my assumptions on a model like this but it would be my belief that focusing universities on specific areas should help reduce their operating costs and improve their quality when compared to 'jack of all trades' institutions. Add this to the increased funding for the institutions selected to be "our MIT" or "our Stanford Law" and the result should be a supply of top class graduates to current industry and "hot-house" industry developing from these institutions.

XxMCRxBabyxX

mahamageehad wrote: »

But it's not enough. Not all of us are paid for out of daddys pocket.

Not all of us are eligible for grants despite the fact that daddy has barely any money! And there aren't that many jobs around for those not eligible for a grant to make money so what are we meant to do?! We have no choice but to take daddy's money.

I'm sick of people implying that the only people with money issues in college are those low income families on grants. there are plenty of us not eligible for various reasons that find it hard to survive and we don't have the benefit of the government's pockets. Not that i have an issue with people getting grants! i'm just sick of the insinuation that if you're not getting a grant you're getting daddys money and lots of it!

How is it fair to saddle them with debt for the rest of their lives?

This is why the PRSI/tax system is being introduced. if we pay out of our wages, it's not a debt that is placed on us but a system in which we pay back for our education out of our salaries. It's less pressure for a start and has been successful in other countries

anymore

mahamageehad wrote: »

Oh my god, this is possibly the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard.


No, I was wrong, this is worse.



One point that hasn't been mentioned yet- current taxes! Graduates tend to earn more than non-graduates- €10,000 according to a previous post. This means they pay more taxes. We are already paying our own way! The universities are in debt and need some cash? Guess what. So does everyone these days.

I think the whole mentality of this country, particularly FF supporters is ridiculous. Lets pick on the people who can't do anything about it and let the wealthy away unhindered. For example until recently millionaire horse owners paid no tax, but nurses always have. Superstars like Bono that are reeling in the money pay their taxes in another country, but workers on minimum wage contribute? We can find money to bail out the banks, but not to help students? Why is it always the less well off in society, or the elderly who have to take the burden?

If fees had been around a few years ago, I wouldn't be in college now. I couldn't afford it. I love how people throw around the word loan like there's nothing to it. I already have a loan. And a part time job. But it's not enough. Not all of us are paid for out of daddys pocket. The full grant is €3,420. At the most a student can work 20 hours a week and even at that some can't manage it. Roughly €150 of wages. Now, these days that isn't even definite due to the lack of jobs. Most students that are trying to support themselves. How is it fair to saddle them with debt for the rest of their lives?

Increase the taxes for the ridiculous "administrative" positions, both public and private. Slash Cowen's salary- he's not worth more than Obama. Get rid of the Oireachtas.

The only students I think need to be looked at are the aforementioned "dossers" there for the college experience. I think that anyone who drops out during or after first year without a valid reason should have to pay back their maintenance grant.

Oh and that much money for building work is just silly- i'm sure NAMA have plently of vacant buildings lying around they'd only love to get rid of!

Excellent contribution.
Why is it that billions upon billions have been paid out to the Agricultural sector and few if any question this, but free education , well partly free, which can benefit anyone who chooses to access it and which which yields an economic benefit, as the above poster points out, is regularlily questioned ?
Why don't we end all subsidies toi the betting and racing industry, abolish the tax exemption for the arts and farts brigade to help finance education ?
Why don't we pay our professors and lecturers similiar rates of pay as our neighbouring and much larger neighbour the UK ? The savings could be ploughed back to education. There is plenty of scope for making savings for re-investment.

PeakOutput

mahamageehad wrote: »

One point that hasn't been mentioned yet- current taxes! Graduates tend to earn more than non-graduates- €10,000 according to a previous post. This means they pay more taxes. We are already paying our own way! The universities are in debt and need some cash? Guess what. So does everyone these days.

the universities dont see that money the point is the universities need more money, much more, increasing taxes or talking about taxes at all dosnt address this.

I think the whole mentality of this country, particularly FF supporters is ridiculous. Lets pick on the people who can't do anything about it and let the wealthy away unhindered. For example until recently millionaire horse owners paid no tax, but nurses always have. Superstars like Bono that are reeling in the money pay their taxes in another country, but workers on minimum wage contribute? We can find money to bail out the banks, but not to help students? Why is it always the less well off in society, or the elderly who have to take the burden?

most people in this thread, including myself, have specifically
explained ways that fees can be introduced without affecting the 'vulnerable' in anyway. there are very good reasons for providing tax breaks to the industries you have mentioned but thats an argument for another thread

If fees had been around a few years ago, I wouldn't be in college now. I couldn't afford it. I love how people throw around the word loan like there's nothing to it. I already have a loan. And a part time job. But it's not enough. Not all of us are paid for out of daddys pocket. The full grant is €3,420. At the most a student can work 20 hours a week and even at that some can't manage it. Roughly €150 of wages. Now, these days that isn't even definite due to the lack of jobs. Most students that are trying to support themselves. How is it fair to saddle them with debt for the rest of their lives?

if you get the grant there is no excuse for not being able to survive on your own. i work between 22 and 24 hours a week on minimum and that takes care of everything accept rent, if i was entitled to a grant i would probably not have to work at all and i could pay my rent. and by the way even while working i average a's and b's, i also have plenty of time for going out getting drunk and having the craic in the words of a 30 year old self made millionare 'make the time STOP WATCHING ****ING LOST'

The only students I think need to be looked at are the aforementioned "dossers" there for the college experience. I think that anyone who drops out during or after first year without a valid reason should have to pay back their maintenance grant.

thats a good idea to start with, it dosnt go nearly far enough though

Flamed Diving

mahamageehad wrote: »

Oh my god, this is possibly the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard.

And yet...

mahamageehad wrote: »

No, I was wrong, this is worse:



One point that hasn't been mentioned yet- current taxes! Graduates tend to earn more than non-graduates- €10,000 according to a previous post. This means they pay more taxes. We are already paying our own way! The universities are in debt and need some cash? Guess what. So does everyone these days.

I think the whole mentality of this country, particularly FF supporters is ridiculous. Lets pick on the people who can't do anything about it and let the wealthy away unhindered. For example until recently millionaire horse owners paid no tax, but nurses always have. Superstars like Bono that are reeling in the money pay their taxes in another country, but workers on minimum wage contribute? We can find money to bail out the banks, but not to help students? Why is it always the less well off in society, or the elderly who have to take the burden?

If fees had been around a few years ago, I wouldn't be in college now. I couldn't afford it. I love how people throw around the word loan like there's nothing to it. I already have a loan. And a part time job. But it's not enough. Not all of us are paid for out of daddys pocket. The full grant is €3,420. At the most a student can work 20 hours a week and even at that some can't manage it. Roughly €150 of wages. Now, these days that isn't even definite due to the lack of jobs. Most students that are trying to support themselves. How is it fair to saddle them with debt for the rest of their lives?

Increase the taxes for the ridiculous "administrative" positions, both public and private. Slash Cowen's salary- he's not worth more than Obama. Get rid of the Oireachtas.

The only students I think need to be looked at are the aforementioned "dossers" there for the college experience. I think that anyone who drops out during or after first year without a valid reason should have to pay back their maintenance grant.

Oh and that much money for building work is just silly- i'm sure NAMA have plently of vacant buildings lying around they'd only love to get rid of!

Couldn't have put it better myself.

PeakOutput

anymore wrote: »

Why don't we end all subsidies toi the betting and racing industry, abolish the tax exemption for the arts and farts brigade to help finance education ?

because they will leave and take the jobs they create with them is that so hard to understand? the arts and farts brigade provides breaks to actual creators of art ONLY and has been capped already so anyone earning over a certain amount pays tax. most artists have NOTHING to do with the 'arts and farts' brigade you really do just soak up everything you are told dont you? learn to research it will improve your university grades considerably

Why don't we pay our professors and lecturers similiar rates of pay as our neighbouring and much larger neighbour the UK ? The savings could be ploughed back to education. There is plenty of scope for making savings for re-investment.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sciencetoday/2009/1126/1224259471866.html

anymore

PeakOutput wrote: »

because they will leave and take the jobs they create with them is that so hard to understand? the arts and farts brigade provides breaks to actual creators of art ONLY and has been capped already so anyone earning over a certain amount pays tax. most artists have NOTHING to do with the 'arts and farts' brigade you really do just soak up everything you are told dont you? learn to research it will improve your university grades considerably




http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sciencetoday/2009/1126/1224259471866.html

If an industry needs to be permanently subsidised, then it is questionable how much value it is to the country, particularily one that has so much involvement by wealthy tax exiles. The reality is that these racing/gambling subsidies exist because quite a few of our political representatives are invloved in one way or another with the racing / gambling fraternity - it is not co-incidence that the notorious FF tent was at a racing venue.

The justification for a tax exemption for artists and writers is totally nonsensical and I daresay even immoral. This is a sector that is foremost in climbing up on its carefully constructed moral high ground to lecture the rest of society and to sneer at us.
Now there may a case in the initial years of an artists/writers career to allow them to average income over say 3/ 4 years to avoid high tax being paid in respect of thier first financially successful year, but there is no moral justification for a € 100,000 annual tax exemption. Any struggling writer/ artist on low income will not be in the tax net anyway and so will not be paying.
remember the Arts and Farts sector already benefits from multi million subsidies so to give a tax exemption as well is bizzare and unacceptable.

PeakOutput

anymore wrote: »

If an industry needs to be permanently subsidised

its not a subsidy we dont pay them anything we simply dont tax certain parts of their business, that is not subsidising them. in return they set up large business's here, bring in foreign investment and hire hundreds of workers who pay millions in taxes. as far as i know there is no tax break for the gambling industry so i dont know what your talking about there. paddy power pays the same taxes on his profits as any other company afaik

The justification for a tax exemption for artists and writers is totally nonsensical and I daresay even immoral. This is a sector that is foremost in climbing up on its carefully constructed moral high ground to lecture the rest of society and to sneer at us.

well you clearly have something against artists so i dont know if there is much point debating the point with you, but for every bono and u2 there are thousands of artists on the poverty line and people who make art for the love of it rather than monetary reward. again is it only the artist who dosnt pay tax dealers / galleries /auction houses all pay the same taxes as everyone and they wouldnt be there without the artists and there wouldnt be anywere near as many artists if they were taxed the same way as other employees. and thats just talking about strict monetary benefit of the break the social and cultural benefits are far greater

karma_

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

There are 3 or 4 Universities in the US that basically cherry pick the students it allows in, that gives them a hell of an advantage. It is your post that is utterly foolish.

Flamed Diving

karma_ wrote: »

There are 3 or 4 Universities in the US that basically cherry pick the students it allows in.

Why do you think that is?

PeakOutput

karma_ wrote: »

There are 3 or 4 Universities in the US that basically cherry pick the students it allows in, that gives them a hell of an advantage. It is your post that is utterly foolish.

wrong, they dont cherry pick individuals in general.

they set standards and if you meet those standards you can get in this benefits everyone int he college by keeping the standard of your fellow students high

they then cherry pick the best to give scholarships and grants to so no matter were you are from if you are smart enough you can get in

i dont see any problem with this

you are being judged completely on academic ability do you think there should be any other criteria examined for entry?

edit; i will say that there are times when people get in cause of who they know and being related to an alumni is a huge advantage. i dont believe that a brilliant student would lose their place because of this though.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

karma_

PeakOutput wrote: »

wrong, they dont cherry pick individuals in general.

they set standards and if you meet those standards you can get in this benefits everyone int he college by keeping the standard of your fellow students high

they then cherry pick the best to give scholarships and grants to so no matter were you are from if you are smart enough you can get in

i dont see any problem with this

you are being judged completely on academic ability do you think there should be any other criteria examined for entry?

I'm not saying this is a problem. I'm responding to the poster who ridicules the claim that there is a reason why these institutions have produced a higher number of Nobel prize winners as opposed to our own universities.

It is in no way 'asinine' to say they have more Nobel prize winners because they have a larger pool of students to choose from.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

karma_

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Maybe you should read my last post if you need it spelled out any clearer.

Byron85

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I know a girl who just finished her Masters in.....*drum roll* Swedish Film.

Sulmac

Another thing I would do to reduce costs would be merge all universities/instituties of technology/colleges of further education/etc. in Dublin into a new "University of Dublin" and all those outside Dublin into a "University of Ireland" (or maybe a provincial basis - "University of Munster", etc.). Something similar to the current NUI set-up (even though NUI has been/is being abolished?), but with each campus specialising in a different field.

granturismo

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I probably disagree with the majority of your posts on boards but agree with means testing and not funding courses which are of little to no use to the economy or from which graduates will just keep entering a cycle of one post grad course after another until they get a series of irrelevant contract jobs usually funded by the Irish or EU taxpayer.

Heres one good example of relevant research in our unis
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0429/1224269288308.html?via=mr

except John Collins had to ruin the article with this quote;

The sale is a significant boost for the Government policy of funding basic research at third-level institutes which can subsequently be sold commercially.

So much of basic research funded in this country is completely irrelevant. It is argued that all basic research contributes to the overall knowledge of science, medicine, engineering, social sciences etc but when has one research project from Ireland benefitted a single cancer patient or saved a region's crops from infestation using natural predators instead of pesticides.

Back to the OP, yes third level fees do have to return. If they dont, colleges will just keep increasing the 'admission fee' in lieu of fees.

amen

Another thing I would do to reduce costs would be merge all universities/instituties of technology/colleges of further education/etc. in Dublin into a new "University of Dublin" and all those outside Dublin into a "University of Ireland" (or maybe a provincial basis - "University of Munster", etc.). Something similar to the current NUI set-up (even though NUI has been/is being abolished?), but with each campus specialising in a different field.

a dreadful idea. There is a big difference between a University and an IT offering certs/diplomas.

As for each campus specialising a lot of research is cross discipline and it can be an advantage to have everyone on the same campus.

Even at undergrad level you may be taught the basics about other courses with lecturers from those courses.