Third-level fees have to come back

ndubz

amen wrote: »

in the entire post about college fees no one has done any sums.

A possible building deficit of 4 billion in universities.

Take UCD largest in the country (approx 20,000 students).

Say these were all charged 3,000 a year that is only 60million a year which is not a lot

As a society we need to determine the future direction for ireland? We are going to become a knowledge based economy or a back water country that exports graduates?

Hopefully a one that exports graduates. I think anyone between 18-21 who is currently in college like myself would be crazy to stay in this backward ****hole for the rest of their lives. quality of life in canada etc is much better. I think the big problem is with the universities is they have huge debts too - like everyone. Im just looking forward to when the imf come in and take over

No one in this so-called ''nation'' have a clue what they are doing. Hate to say it, but we'd be better off under the CROWN.

PeakOutput

ndubz wrote: »

First of all, one of you guys said 10k a year for a degree is viable - for a start, that is a pure rip-off and a ba(hons) degree isn't worth that (in ireland) no way.

right now its not because the universities dont ahve the money to invest in providing a truly great education

Then some of you are saying it would improve the universities, is that why Ireland has an apparently better education system than in the UK, where fees are the norm?

look at how many british universities are in the top 100, now look at how many irish uni's are. we are great at producing average students, we need to strive to provide excellent students and fees facilitate this

however is 8 billion (or much more) to anglo money well spent

yawn nama is not an argument for every debate on expenditure and tax

No, this shouldn't be the case,and if it is, people will just go more to the UK where it is 3.5k and where they ''MIGHT'' even get a job. 10k is not worth it.

you are making the mistake of believing one degree is better than the next

it is not, not even close

you can go to to the uk and pay 3.5k and get an average degree which will get you an average wage if you like OR you can go to the uk and pay 40Ksterling a year and get a truly exceptional qualification that will seriously increase your earning potential and hireability. in fact you are spoilt for choice for excellence in the uk, london school of economincs, london business school, oxford, cambridge etc

we dont have one institution that matches up to these and that is because of free fees for everyone.

And where do all of you people think we are going to get the money to pay for our '' fees '', there is no part time jobs anymore ? remember the recession?

student loans its done all over the world

And just one more thing, I know its not called as such, but the 1500 euro isn't no walk in the park either, obviously better than 10k, but with govt support and the registration fee. is that not enough?

no

Tax payers in this country are cryers and moaners if you ask me. Go to sweden and feel the pain. At least you guys got your '' FREE '' education and now want everyone else to pay, why should we. we are the recession generation, and I hope when we all graduate, we leg it and pay your own pensions.

lol dont let the door hit you on the way out

Flamed Diving

Furious-Dave wrote: »

I'm on back to education allowance, I am getting paid Albeit not that much. Besides, I worked in night security a few years ago, ain't doing that again.
The course I'm doing, which is actually a security course, is heavily based on assignments, so any time not in college is spent working on them

Such is college...

ndubz

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

that's a nice little fairy tale. it's true that many people go to college looking for a piss up, but these wasters are all weeded out by the end of first year. the majority of my classmates were middle-class too. why bring up cars? maybe they spent years saving up for one? please don't assume that your college experience was the norm. Having people slave away for years then graduate into a decade or so of debt isn't the answer.

Fair play mal- you hit the nail on the head - its just these taxpayers who are moaning because you would sware its actually coming out of their pockets. The fees are expensive enough. and you are so right - piss takers are gone by christmas in first year.

ninty9er

Sulmac wrote: »

I also find it a bit of a joke that with "free fees" we still have the €1,500 "registration fee", which is higher than the fees that students have to pay in some German provinces!

Under some parts of the German system you don't get a choice in which university you go to either, you pick your course and the state assigns you a university. Irish universities also rank quite highly among European academics according to recent newspaper articles.

John Lynch Ph.D wrote: »

Terrible idea.

And why are people so for the idea of providing free education to students from only low income family's? again after again these students have proven to be the under performers in college, and that is FACT, the basic reality is they come from low income family's for a reason and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.


I'm aware this isn't always the case, but it is 90% of the time. So for applications grants would have to be heavily scrutinized and also availible to middle class students aswell.

However I feel that the approach to third level needs to completely reworked, employers aren't looking for a general piss in the pan Irish college degree because they know they're worth.

Colleges should be listening to what employers want and provide tuition for those needed course's (Microsoft Certs etc).

These economically viable course should be free.. for EVERYONE.

If you want to study renaissance poetry, you can, but you can pay for it and regardless of your background.

If we are producing Doctoral graduates with grammar like yours (if I'm to take your username literally) then we have more to worry about than whether the state or the student pays for the education.

PeakOutput wrote: »

fees should be introduced but not across the board i do not think

families udner a certain amount should pay nothing and receive full maintenance grants

families in the next bracket pay a certain amount and get some grants

families earning over a ceratin amount pay full fees and full costs

to be honest 10K a year for a degree does not sound unreasonable to me and it would drastically improve our colleges and universities

the grant system needs a huge overhaul along with the introduction of fees

postgrads should be more expensive aswell

edit; i do also believe that savings made from introducing fees should be ringfenced for improving education and not jsut flittered away into the abyss of our deficit

I used to think that way, now I believe Third Level should be free at the point of entry (i.e no compulsory up front cost) for those that can't afford to pay, but that loans should be compulsory for them, repaid on the basis of income after graduation. This will require international treaties to be signed between the Revenue Commissioners and all other income assessment authorities internationally for Irish graduates to avoid the Australian problem of a mounting unpaid debt pile. It needs to be clear that you will be pursued for your educational costs regardless of where you are in the world.

NOBODY should get a free education or EVERYBODY should get one.

Overheal wrote: »

Fees that address cost; not profit.

Bingo

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You're obviously not a UL graduate.

Without prejudice to what I've already said, I'll probably be seen at the front of some anti-fees protest as part of my job over the coming year. As a student I had it put to plebiscite as to the most favourable alternative to fees in students' eyes. The result was a graduate loan system 32%, discounting the pointless option (I'm opposed to alternatives) 52%, Grad tax 9% and Increase in general taxation 7%.

However, all elected officers of ULSU are mandated by Gemeral Meeting to oppose fees.

PeakOutput

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

it's true that many people go to college looking for a piss up, but these wasters are all weeded out by the end of first year.

sorry but thats the fairy tale

i can point you to classes of 200 / 300 wasters

first year gets rid of some of them but they shouldnt be there in the first place

there are good people in all of the courses im talking about but the lower 1/3 of people about to graduate dont deserve a degree now add up all the money the goverment has spent educating them so they can get a pass degree


complete waste of money

PeakOutput

ndubz wrote: »

Fair play mal- you hit the nail on the head - its just these taxpayers who are moaning because you would sware its actually coming out of their pockets. The fees are expensive enough. and you are so right - piss takers are gone by christmas in first year.

your ignorance amazes me tbh

Flamed Diving

ninty9er wrote: »

Under some parts of the German system you don't get a choice in which university you go to either, you pick your course and the state assigns you a university. Irish universities also rank quite highly among European academics according to recent newspaper articles.

Such as?

dlofnep

John Lynch Ph.D wrote: »

Terrible idea.

And why are people so for the idea of providing free education to students from only low income family's?

The idea being that wealthy families can afford it, while families living in poverty are barely able to cover the costs of food and electricity, let alone third level education.

So if there is a cycle of only wealth families being able to avail of third-level education, then it will create an elitist society.

John Lynch Ph.D wrote: »

again after again these students have proven to be the under performers in college, and that is FACT,

Care to provide me with figures for this? I'm sure it will be easy for you - being fact and all.

John Lynch Ph.D wrote: »

the basic reality is they come from low income family's for a reason and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

What an absurd statement to make. Some of the brightest minds this world has ever seen have come from poor backgrounds. Growing up with struggle is an extra incentive to better yourself through education.

Moreover - Families aren't living in poverty because they choose too. Many just did not have the opportunity to go onto third level education.

IrishTonyO

ndubz wrote: »

Hopefully a one that exports graduates. I think anyone between 18-21 who is currently in college like myself would be crazy to stay in this backward ****hole for the rest of their lives. quality of life in canada etc is much better. I think the big problem is with the universities is they have huge debts too - like everyone. Im just looking forward to when the imf come in and take over

No one in this so-called ''nation'' have a clue what they are doing. Hate to say it, but we'd be better off under the CROWN.

Well with an attitude like that we are better off without you. I note you are quite happy to accept free third level education from from this 'so called nation', why not go to Canada and pay for it. Yours posts seem to confirm the entitled attitude of a lot of people.

ndubz

PeakOutput wrote: »

sorry but thats the fairy tale

i can point you to classes of 200 / 300 wasters

first year gets rid of some of them but they shouldnt be there in the first place

there are good people in all of the courses im talking about but the lower 1/3 of people about to graduate dont deserve a degree now add up all the money the goverment has spent educating them so they can get a pass degree


complete waste of money

I think you just cannot accept that people shouldn't be paying for Fees in a second class education system as you are calling it. And do you think that the very minute they are introduced our Universities will be in the top 100 or have a better educational standard - thats fairtale peakout. Just admit it, it kills you that some of your '' LOW '' tax money goes towards education. Well it should kill you even more that it goes more to FAS for their ridiculous 8 week courses that do not impove employment prospects and the tutors are well overpaid. Fas should be absolished and Not the so-called free higher education.

PeakOutput

by the way donegalfella if there was any way i could pick your brain about your experience in the ivy league id mucho appreciate it

im hoping to do a post grad at a top school over there just looking for differing views and opinions

?Cee?view

taconnol wrote: »

I would just make the point that undergraduates most definitely pay their way.

Current annual registration fees stand at €1,500 and it does not cost a university that much to put each undergraduate student through his/her course annually. So some of this registration fee effectively supplements post-graduate education.

You don't honestly mean this surely. How could 1,500 even come close to covering the cost?

Think of some costs off the top of your head - lecturers, tutors, light, heat, maintenance staff, insurance, etc. etc. etc. 1,500 is only a drop in the ocean compared to the cost of actually providing the education.

The actual figures have been provided by the various college Presidents, but they were ignored.

Furious-Dave

ndubz wrote: »

Fair play mal- you hit the nail on the head - its just these taxpayers who are moaning because you would sware its actually coming out of their pockets. The fees are expensive enough. and you are so right - piss takers are gone by christmas in first year.

LOL! When I was first in college, oh a good 12 years ago now, I was one of these students there for the piss up. But I can assure you, we were only just get warmed up by Christmas, in full swing by Easter and burned out by the summer, only to be back for more in the Autumn. It wasn't until just after Christmas in my repeat of 2nd that I actually dropped out. Wonder how much money I wasted

PeakOutput

ndubz wrote: »

I think you just cannot accept that people shouldn't be paying for Fees in a second class education system as you are calling it. And do you think that the very minute they are introduced our Universities will be in the top 100 or have a better educational standard - thats fairtale peakout. Just admit it, it kills you that some of your '' LOW '' tax money goes towards education. Well it should kill you even more that it goes more to FAS for their ridiculous 8 week courses that do not impove employment prospects and the tutors are well overpaid. Fas should be absolished and Not the so-called free higher education.

im a student dude i dont pay any taxes right now, i also dont get any grants and work part time to survive so, you know.....the door is that way>>>>>>


i have no problem with people not paying and going to average institutions and receiving average qualifications go for it enjoy your time at college, i am

i have a problem with having to go tothe uk/america and paying 50-100k a year for the privilidge of a great education

i believe everyone should have access to third level education i believe there are better ways to provide this than free fees for everyone

Flamed Diving

Furious-Dave wrote: »

LOL! When I was first in college, oh a good 12 years ago now, I was one of these students there for the piss up. But I can assure everyone, we were only just get warmed up by Christmas, in full swing by Easter and burned out by the summer, only to be back for more in the Autumn. It wasn't until just after Christmas in my repeat of 2nd that I actually dropped out. Wonder how much money I wasted

Ah Davey, it's just not working...

Furious-Dave

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Ah Davey, it's just not working...

Um...What's not working now?

ChocolateSauce

As a student, I feel the current system is a bad one. I think the best system is that education is free while you're in it, but when you graduate you have to pay it back. This shouldn't be a problem as graduates usually earn at least 10,000 a year more than non-graduates.

The fees should be due with the first full-time job a former student gets, degree or no degree; this way people who drop out have to pay just as much as those who don't. It would also remove a barrier to students who left and want to return later in their lives.

But if it were fees upfront, I'd be out (being a semi-independent student), so I would naturally totally oppose fees upfront, even with a grant.

ChocolateSauce

Flamed Diving wrote: »

1) Are you suggesting I'm making it up?

2) Do note that I was quick to point out the experiential nature of my post

3) Do note that I encountered these people right until the end, and continue to now in the classes of 2nd year+ students I teach, where they seem to have missed this "weeding out" system you speak of. If anything, they are the majority.

Thanks.

I'm sure it's different in certain other faculties, but in my science year those who weren't there for a degree were out by second year! 60% dropout rate in first year and a 40% rate in second (second due to the subjects becoming too hard). By third year almost no one drops out and in my class there are zero people just there for fun!

ndubz

PeakOutput wrote: »

im a student dude i dont pay any taxes right now, i also dont get any grants and work part time to survive so, you know.....the door is that way>>>>>>


i have no problem with people not paying and going to average institutions and receiving average qualifications go for it enjoy your time at college, i am

i have a problem with having to go tothe uk/america and paying 50-100k a year for the privilidge of a great education

i believe everyone should have access to third level education i believe there are better ways to provide this than free fees for everyone

American institions arn't that amazing either I think you should understand, so you have Harvard, UCLA, the big boys, but apart that, the normal UNI that most americans go to, Like take for e.g my ex boyfriend, went to the University of Texas in Austin, he is american, but the fees were huge, Im doing a similar degree here ( in my first year) with 1500 fees. But americans pay much less tax.

I know your saying the door is that way etc, im 20 and I know its hard trying to work and go to college etc. I feel your pain man, I had an excellent job in eBay straight out of school a few years bag. I don't know how I swung it, because it was advertised as degree prefered etc. I was only 17, but if fees wernt low here I couldn't go to college, and my credit isnt the best now (my fault) so the loan thing wouldn't be an option either.

Im on back to education now - So i get 200 euro a week to go to college - What annoys me is 50, 40 or even 30 year olds taking up spaces that kids out of school need and want, they are passed employable. But im there to learn. Anyway.

Sorry if I offended you.

Flamed Diving

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I'm sure it's different in certain other faculties, but in my science year those who weren't there for a degree were out by second year! 60% dropout rate in first year and a 40% rate in second (second due to the subjects becoming too hard). By third year almost no one drops out and in my class there are zero people just there for fun!

Ah, but Science is a different kettle of fish. You must really want to study a subject in it. Medicine would fall under the same category. However, Law, Arts, Finance, Social Sciences, etc would comprise the majority of the population in universities, and tend to hoover up all the wasters. But yeah, this should be pointed out.

Macha

churchview wrote: »

You don't honestly mean this surely. How could 1,500 even come close to covering the cost?

Think of some costs off the top of your head - lecturers, tutors, light, heat, maintenance staff, insurance, etc. etc. etc. 1,500 is only a drop in the ocean compared to the cost of actually providing the education.

The actual figures have been provided by the various college Presidents, but they were ignored.

Ok, where are they?

A lot of the services you mention also serve post-graduate and research services. I'm talking about undergraduate.

ndubz

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Ah, but Science is a different kettle of fish. You must really want to study a subject in it. Medicine would fall under the same category. However, Law, Arts, Finance, Social Sciences, etc would comprise the majority of the population in universities, and tend to hoover up all the wasters. But yeah, this should be pointed out.

I ain't a waster and Im studying Media Production and Public Relations. And I can safely say, no one has dropped out. Its not the '' self indulging '' media studies though. But I see where your coming from, although Law as in LLB etc arn't for wasters in my opinion. My old buddy has spent 7000 a year recently in griffith because he didn't get enough points. I see what you mean, but all of the above are not for the wasters, Science isn't the only academic out there you should know.

ChocolateSauce

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Ah, but Science is a different kettle of fish. You must really want to study a subject in it. Medicine would fall under the same category. However, Law, Arts, Finance, Social Sciences, etc would comprise the majority of the population in universities, and tend to hoover up all the wasters. But yeah, this should be pointed out.

I misspoke: I meant to say, I know it's different in other faculties.:p

In my view so long as a person is doing their course because they like the subject, that's great. But if they're doing it because it's easy, or they only had the points for it, or because they don't really know what they want, then they're wasting the time and money of a lot of people, including themselves.

Overheal

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

As a student, I feel the current system is a bad one. I think the best system is that education is free while you're in it, but when you graduate you have to pay it back. This shouldn't be a problem as graduates usually earn at least 10,000 a year more than non-graduates.

The fees should be due with the first full-time job a former student gets, degree or no degree; this way people who drop out have to pay just as much as those who don't. It would also remove a barrier to students who left and want to return later in their lives.

But if it were fees upfront, I'd be out (being a semi-independent student), so I would naturally totally oppose fees upfront, even with a grant.

Thats another aspect of the US system and it worked "OK" before the credit crash, as we had/have lots and lots of student loan, pay-it-after programs.

Inescapably bad thing though, with interest rates. It also drove up the cost of tuition because of the ease at which people were willing to go ahead with it. So you had situations where students were basically graduating with Mortgages.

Furious-Dave

ndubz wrote: »

30 year olds taking up spaces...........they are passed employable.

HEY! Screw you! I'm not old!

ChocolateSauce

taconnol wrote: »

Ok, where are they?

A lot of the services you mention also serve post-graduate and research services. I'm talking about undergraduate.

The government gives circa 22,000 euro to universities per student; 24,000 is the average cost per head of the education. It even says this on my bill, which is for 22,000.

ndubz

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I misspoke: I meant to say, I know it's different in other faculties.:p

In my view so long as a person is doing their course because they like the subject, that's great. But if they're doing it because it's easy, or they only had the points for it, or because they don't really know what they want, then they're wasting the time and money of a lot of people, including themselves.

I totally agree with you there man, see thats the average Joe soap , '' I don't know what I want '' so ill do business or something to that extent, if we had a penny for every business or computer student, we'd be worth a fortune.

ChocolateSauce

Overheal wrote: »

Thats another aspect of the US system and it worked "OK" before the credit crash, as we had/have lots and lots of student loan, pay-it-after programs.

Inescapably bad thing though, with interest rates. It also drove up the cost of tuition because of the ease at which people were willing to go ahead with it. So you had situations where students were basically graduating with Mortgages.

I think the cost should be integrated into their taxes, say 10% of earnings on top of normal tax. This way they only pay when they earn, and the more they earn the faster they'll pay off the debt. I think banks should probably stay out of it and leave it to the revenue office. It wouldn't be a loan, per se. More of a tax.

ndubz

graduation with mortgages!.

That is tough, I have heard of students with 100k student debt. That's horrible, I mean we all only live once etc. Should be able to enjoy your younger years and not be riddled with debt.