Third-level fees have to come back

ndubz

Furious-Dave wrote: »

HEY! Screw you! I'm not old!

Lol, I didn't mean to offend, but you know what I mean. It is ridiculous for 30 or 40 year old's to be going to uni usually to '' get them out of the house ''. Theres loads where I am. They are lovely people and everything, but they could do some night course or something.

Eliot Rosewater

Overheal wrote: »

Elitism is not a slur. Its just used as a slur quite often. Nor is it a throwaway remark.

I misunderstood your intent; apologies.

taconnol wrote: »

I would just make the point that undergraduates most definitely pay their way.

€1,500 is a paltry amount relative to what people pay in other countries. The €1,500 is only directed towards general college services, not one's degree. The UCC SU published a list of where the €1,500 goes, perhaps you should look it up. It doesn't even cover the cost of facilities, staff etc. Just stuff like the Accommodations Office.

Even with this €1,500, plus the €6,000 the government pays per student, UCC is still severely in debt. So clearly not enough is being paid. This should change, unless your happy to see UCC back of the field internationally, of course.

PeakOutput

ndubz wrote: »

American institions arn't that amazing either I think you should understand, so you have Harvard, UCLA, the big boys, but apart that, the normal UNI that most americans go to, Like take for e.g my ex boyfriend, went to the University of Texas in Austin, he is american, but the fees were huge, Im doing a similar degree here ( in my first year) with 1500 fees. But americans pay much less tax.

i already said dont copy the americans exactly but we need more money to compete

there should be a place for everyone in third level not a place for everyone at a university or an it, some people just arent cut out for it and people need to accept that fact not everyone is equal and not everyone wants the same things.

jayboi

churchview wrote: »

What are you getting at here? Fees collected by each College belong to that College. They don't go to the exchequer.

Other than UCD, where some extremely high levels of pay have been well publicised, where are other "top people" in Irish Universities grossly overpaid?

What I’m getting at really is that the argument being put forward is that fees are need to provide better facilities when in fact its highly likely they wont go to the colleges at all or at the very least only a fraction will get to the colleges.

ninty9er

jayboi wrote: »

I haven’t seen much effort on part of the colleges to curb their spending either, many of the top people in third level institutions are grossly overpaid IMO.

I have, 5% pay and 4% non-pay last year, more this year and all divisions watching EVERYTHING they are spending in UL at least, with more cuts in funding coming next year. Deficits will get bigger regardless. You cant cut the core government grant by millions (for each institution) and expect the costs to just disappear.

taconnol wrote: »

I would just make the point that undergraduates most definitely pay their way.

Current annual registration fees stand at €1,500 and it does not cost a university that much to put each undergraduate student through his/her course annually. So some of this registration fee effectively supplements post-graduate education.

€1,500 goes nowhere in relation to the overall cost of your education. Most of it covers non-academic costs, in fact all of it is supposed to cover non-academic costs, but it's just not affordable for universities to stick to this.

ndubz wrote: »

4 Billion, thats alot of money I know, and the taxpayer deserves a break, however is 8 billion (or much more) to anglo money well spent, and do the 18-19 year olds of this country deserve a break who are the ones who are going to be paying for the past generations massive debts and literally over-spending with the countless houses in france, spain and bulgaria.

And where do all of you people think we are going to get the money to pay for our '' fees '', there is no part time jobs anymore ? remember the recession?

Bit of a rant I know, but I did make some good points.

The education budget is needed every year, Anglo won't be getting €8 billion every year.

You'll borrow it, like people in other countries do.

No you didn't

Here's the article referred to earlier.

http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/our-excellent-universities-top-eu-league-table-for-efficiency-2112511.html

It's not that our Universities provide a poor quality education, it's that the non-academic services are pared to the bone compared to other countries.

Sulmac

For those wondering about the actual cost of a year in third level in Ireland (taken from that FG document I posted earlier):

Estimated Undergraduate Unit Costs Per Annum for Universities 2008/2009 (Source: HEA)
Arts €9,446
Business €8,688
Science €13,615
Engineering €14,247
Medicine €12,675
Dentistry €38,621
Veterinary €28,844
Part-time Arts €5,717
Part-time Science €7,344
Nursing €7,451

It also says the student registration fee raises around €173 million per year.

ndubz

PeakOutput wrote: »

i already said dont copy the americans exactly but we need more money to compete

there should be a place for everyone in third level not a place for everyone at a university or an it, some people just arent cut out for it and people need to accept that fact not everyone is equal and not everyone wants the same things.

Everyone may not want the same things. But everyone is equal. You really do belong in the US, where they don't treat everyone as equal. The european union has done wonders for this country and if were not for them, we would still be a backward catholic island were people were not treated as equals.

Equality is the way forward.

Furious-Dave

ndubz wrote: »

Lol, I didn't mean to offend, but you know what I mean. It is ridiculous for 30 or 40 year old's to be going to uni usually to '' get them out of the house ''. Theres loads where I am. They are lovely people and everything, but they could do some night course or something.

I know But I'm 30 and I'm also on back to education, and I went back to college because I was unemployed for a year and half and decided to change industry (as was the case when I went back to college the second time. That time I paid for myself though). I have no guilt about taking up a space in my college. 1/3 of the people on the course aren't cut out for it. They clearly thought "oh lets just do a security course". But the course includes legal studies and business admin, amongst other subjects.

Macha

Oops, sorry - I was woefully misinformed!

ndubz

ninty9er wrote: »

I have, 5% pay and 4% non-pay last year, more this year and all divisions watching EVERYTHING they are spending in UL at least, with more cuts in funding coming next year. Deficits will get bigger regardless. You cant cut the core government grant by millions (for each institution) and expect the costs to just disappear.



€1,500 goes nowhere in relation to the overall cost of your education. Most of it covers non-academic costs, in fact all of it is supposed to cover non-academic costs, but it's just not affordable for universities to stick to this.



The education budget is needed every year, Anglo won't be getting €8 billion every year.

You'll borrow it, like people in other countries do.

No you didn't

Here's the article referred to earlier.

http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/our-excellent-universities-top-eu-league-table-for-efficiency-2112511.html

It's not that our Universities provide a poor quality education, it's that the non-academic services are pared to the bone compared to other countries.

I understand where your coming from, definitely a Fine Gael supporter I take it. - The party which will definitely bring Ireland to it's knees. Free education is the only way forward for an equal fair society where people are not burdened with debts to pay for their educating which is a basic human right.

gerardo1982

Why would little Johnny want to pay €40,000 for his education and then join the dole queues. The government needs to make sure that highly paid jobs are available for graduates, then they can bring the fees back.

ndubz

Furious-Dave wrote: »

I know But I'm 30 and I'm also on back to education, and I went back to college because I was unemployed for a year and half and decided to change industry (as was the case when I went back to college the second time. That time I paid for myself though). I have no guilt about taking up a space in my college. 1/3 of the people on the course aren't cut out for it. They clearly thought "oh lets just do a security course". But the course includes legal studies and business admin, amongst other subjects.

A security course ? You must be talking about fas. I've never heard of a degree in security, but again I would have no interest as such. Well the only thing I can say to you is fair play to you. At least you are of the minority at your age who are there to learn, however, when graduated, a company will hire a 24 year old over a 50 year old on the same course. That was my point. Some people are passed the age of employability.

PeakOutput

ndubz wrote: »

Everyone may not want the same things. But everyone is equal. You really do belong in the US, where they don't treat everyone as equal. The european union has done wonders for this country and if were not for them, we would still be a backward catholic island were people were not treated as equals.

Equality is the way forward.

sorry i should have been clearer.as far as age, race, sex, religon, etc goes everyone is and should be equal

however

academically everyone is not equal and academically everyone does not belong in university

everyone should have the opportunity to go to university if they are good enough and if they want to this is were grants / scholarships / loans comes in

with the better off paying fees it opens more opportunity for the less advantaged to earn grants and scholarships so they can attend the current grant system is a joke(im a perfect example worked and supported myself for 3 years before going to university but because i hadnt turned 22 yet i wasnt entitled to any assistance as they still took my parents income into account)

everyone should have the chance

absolutely and in the system i suggest they still would

silverharp

Sulmac wrote: »

For those wondering about the actual cost of a year in third level in Ireland (taken from that FG document I posted earlier):

Estimated Undergraduate Unit Costs Per Annum for Universities 2008/2009 (Source: HEA)
Arts €9,446
Business €8,688
Science €13,615
Engineering €14,247
Medicine €12,675
Dentistry €38,621
Veterinary €28,844
Part-time Arts €5,717
Part-time Science €7,344
Nursing €7,451

It also says the student registration fee raises around €173 million per year.

The vets look like they get a better education then the doctors, Rex and Flopsy must be thrilled :pac:

?Cee?view

taconnol wrote: »

Ok, where are they?

A lot of the services you mention also serve post-graduate and research services. I'm talking about undergraduate.

Estimated Undergraduate Unit Costs Per Annum for Universities 2008/2009

(Source: HEA)

Arts €9,446
Business €8,688
Science €13,615
Engineering €14,247
Medicine €12,675
Dentistry €38,621
Veterinary €28,844
Part-time Arts €5,717
Part-time Science €7,344
Nursing €7,451

ninty9er

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

plus the €6,000 the government pays per student

I've just recovered from a fit of hysterical laughing. Do you honestly believe the State pays the prescribed fee?? There would be absolutely no funding problems if that were the case.

In UL that would mean an almost doubling of the current core grant.

PeakOutput

ndubz wrote: »

Free education is the only way forward for an equal fair society

no its not simply stating something does not make it true

there are other ways to provide better quality education to everyone

ndubz

PeakOutput wrote: »

sorry i should have been clearer.as far as age, race, sex, religon, etc goes everyone is and should be equal

however

academically everyone is not equal and academically everyone does not belong in university

everyone should have the opportunity to go to university if they are good enough and if they want to this is were grants / scholarships / loans comes in

with the better off paying fees it opens more opportunity for the less advantaged to earn grants and scholarships so they can attend the current grant system is a joke(im a perfect example worked and supported myself for 3 years before going to university but because i hadnt turned 22 yet i wasnt entitled to any assistance as they still took my parents income into account)





absolutely and in the system i suggest they still would

Yeah that is a joke man. I can understand where your coming from. That annoys me that someone in my college is getting a 6000 a year grant plus back to education - Total piss take. Just because s/he is over 23. Joke.!

?Cee?view

taconnol wrote: »

Ok, where are they?

A lot of the services you mention also serve post-graduate and research services. I'm talking about undergraduate.

One of the central problems in Irish 3rd level is that it is in no way self financing whereas 4th level can tend in many disciplines to benefit from external funding which can be funded by industry through fellowships etc.

Furious-Dave

ndubz wrote: »

A security course ? You must be talking about fas. I've never heard of a degree in security, but again I would have no interest as such. Well the only thing I can say to you is fair play to you. At least you are of the minority at your age who are there to learn, however, when graduated, a company will hire a 24 year old over a 50 year old on the same course. That was my point. Some people are passed the age of employability.

Nope not Fás. It's actually a level 6 course (basic degree being level 7) in security business management. Not a Uni nor an IT though.
Lol, I'm aware of the point you were making, I was just taking the piss

ndubz

Furious-Dave wrote: »

Nope not Fás. It's actually a level 6 course (basic degree being level 7) in security business management. Not a Uni nor an IT though.
Lol, I'm aware of the point you were making, I was just taking the piss

Oh well level 6 isnt a walk in the park. So i understand where you are coming home - Well fair play for taking the piss, lightin up the humour in here with all the FG supporter's.

Furious-Dave

ndubz wrote: »

lightin up the humour in here with all the FG supporter's.

What's that supposed to mean :mad:

ChocolateSauce

Sulmac wrote: »

For those wondering about the actual cost of a year in third level in Ireland (taken from that FG document I posted earlier):

Estimated Undergraduate Unit Costs Per Annum for Universities 2008/2009 (Source: HEA)
Arts €9,446
Business €8,688
Science €13,615
Engineering €14,247
Medicine €12,675
Dentistry €38,621
Veterinary €28,844
Part-time Arts €5,717
Part-time Science €7,344
Nursing €7,451

It also says the student registration fee raises around €173 million per year.

Huh. UCD seems to insist that my fees amount to 23,000 a year, all of which is paid for by the state except for 1500.

MavisDavis

rightwingdub wrote: »

They can work for a few years, save up quite a bit of money and then go to college say when they are 21 or 23, mature students tend to have more appreciation for the courses they are doing than a lot of 17 or 18 year old kids.

Personally, I think a graduates' payment scheme would work better. People will work harder knowing that they'll have to pay for their education, rather than making mammy and daddy do it.

And I say this as a prospective student.

ninty9er

ndubz wrote: »

I understand where your coming from, definitely a Fine Gael supporter I take it. - The party which will definitely bring Ireland to it's knees. Free education is the only way forward for an equal fair society where people are not burdened with debts to pay for their educating which is a basic human right.

No on count one.

On free education, not necessarily. An education system that EVERYONE has to pay the same for is fair.

If you have to take a loan up front and pay back once you have a job, there is no reason why you can't go to college, even if you come from a single parent, welfare dependent family, as there is no associated cost while in college.

Eliot Rosewater

ninty9er wrote: »

I've just recovered from a fit of hysterical laughing. Do you honestly believe the State pays the prescribed fee??

I suppose; trusting a Fianna Fail administration was a bit naive of me, eh ninty9er?

But seriously, I genuinely wasn't aware that was the case. It really just adds another item of support towards abolishing free fees.

XxMCRxBabyxX

ninty9er wrote: »

If you have to take a loan up front and pay back once you have a job, there is no reason why you can't go to college, even if you come from a single parent, welfare dependent family, as there is no associated cost while in college.

+1

I don't understand the those from lower paid families shouldn't have to pay fees. Fine give them the grant for college expenses but if a PRSI scheme is brought in (which is the most likely option as has been proposed I believe) why should those not as wealthy be exempt considering they will be as qualified as the rest of us and therefore able to get the jobs to pay the same amounts as the rest of us?

MavisDavis

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

+1

I don't understand the those from lower paid families shouldn't have to pay fees. Fine give them the grant for college expenses but if a PRSI scheme is brought in (which is the most likely option as has been proposed I believe) why should those not as wealthy be exempt considering they will be as qualified as the rest of us and therefore able to get the jobs to pay the same amounts as the rest of us?

+1

I absolutely agree. I have no problem with people getting grants to afford accommodation/transport costs that may be necessary for them to get their course, but if it's a post-college repayment scheme (which it should be), we will all be qualified and tax-payers, so we should all pay. After college, we should all definitely be adults, so it can't possibly be fair to base repayment on family circumstances and parents' income.

amacachi

1% extra tax on earnings for those with degrees? Would near enough cover the costs.

At the same time I wouldn't really care if fees were brought back, as long as there's a proper loans system.

PeakOutput

amacachi wrote: »

1% extra tax on earnings for those with degrees? Would near enough cover the costs.

At the same time I wouldn't really care if fees were brought back, as long as there's a proper loans system.

i dont think it should be a tax as then there is no guarantee of the colleges getting the money

it should be a state loan of some sort that is repaid with automatic deductions from your wage