Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

Amazotheamazing

The Cup That Cheers Returns
11 November 2011, 11:31 amBy Pat GeraghtyPlenty of talking points after Munster named their side today for the Heineken Cup opener against Northampton Saints tomorrow with Donncha O'Callaghan, Denis Leamy and newcomer Will Chambers all relegated to the bench.
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Donnacha Ryan takes O'Callaghan's place along the skipper Paul O'Connell in the second row, James Coughlan supplants Leamy as the number 8 from the Leinster game while 21 year old Danny Barnes is preferred in the outside channel to Chambers, the Super 15 winning medalist.
Prior to last year's final pool game against London Irish, you have to go back to 2002/03 season for the last time O'Callaghan didn't start in an entire Pool campaign (he played in 4 of their 6 games) for Munster in the Heineken Cup while Leamy has been an ever present in the side, injury aside, since making his debut in 2004.
Ryan, O'Callaghan's replacement has been seen more as a back-rower up to now but relishes the opportunity presented to him. Over the years I'd a been longing to play second row but obviously with the calibre of player that was there I had to play back-row and yeh I'd like to nail down a second row place but basically I'd like to play rugby so at the end of the day so I'll play where I'm put really."

Looking forward to Saturday's game the Tipperary native admits, " It's a really serious challenge, a huge night and one when we'll really look to have the crowd behind us cause we'll need them."

He's acutely aware of the challenge posed by last year's beaten finalists and particular individuals. They'd a great run last year. Topped their Pool, got to the final. Maybe just ran out of steam in the second half.

Lawes is a key player. A really big guy, he's very powerful, very fast. We saw his quality in the World Cup and we'll have to be on our toes there. Then there's Dylan Hartley as well, a key member of their side, a leader for them.

First of all we have to play for 80 minutes, last week our discipline was poor as well and we were a bit sporadic in our performance So we're really going to have to concentrate on ourselves, on our own discipline and basically be as relentless as possible for 80 minutes."

The home comfort of an opener in Thomond Park Stadium is tempered by the need to secure a home win but Ryan only sees the positives. "There's probably always pressure playing with Munster and it's pressure we put on ourselves but that's the challenge we love rising to.

"Playing in Thomond Park is going to give us a real boost. Last year was a very hurtful year for us in our performance in the Heineken Cup so this time around we'll take every game as it comes. Home or away we're just set on going out there and doing our best.

MaryKing

vinny chase wrote: »

I'm not saying that; I'm just saying that not every time someone says something about Munster that isn't positive are they having a dig at them. Sometimes it's actual constructive criticism, and that this constant provincial sniping by comparing everything back to Leinster and attempting to drag every single issue like this into a provincial argument doesn't help anyone.

It's an almost indisputable fact that Munster have struggled of late in producing outside backs; evidenced by the sheer number of imports who've played there for them; including Mafi, Tipoki, Cullen, Warwick, Payne, Chambers, de Villiers etc etc.

If you say its indisputable, I guess it must be!

Munster also lost Barry Murphy & Ian Dowling last season to career ending injury.

Amazotheamazing

Very interesting to see how both respond to being dropped. I really think Leamy is unlucky, I'd have moved POM to 7.

MaryKing

CatFromHue wrote: »

But Munster have a problem in having 48 players, 47 when when Chambers leaves, on their books. It's a problem that needs to be addressed big time.

To put it in perspective Toulon have a squad of 47, Racing Metro have 40, Clermont have 38, and Stade Francais have 45.

Toulon and Racing Metro are funded by a Sugar Daddy while Stade Francais nearly went bust last season. Financially having such a big squad and also two training bases like Munster is financially draining. I'm speculating here of course.

Playing wise there is a problem too as a lot of the squad will not get any serious game time this season. Some of the squad may not get any yet are on senior contracts and have been for a few years.

At a guess, I'd say a lot of them are not on huge money as they are very young. I think the way Munster try to develop players is by fielding a competitive team in the British & Irish Cup so you actually need 23+ players for that if you want to do that, and then you need another 23+ for Heineken Cup. Then you have injuries (which are fairly extensive at the moment). They all mount up.

Conor Murray & Mike Sherry were introduced this way and they made the step up very well from B+I, to Magners and in the case of Conor Murray, international. Perhaps that has a lot to do with that at least the younger players are used to playing together before they even play Magners and not just being pulled in from the AIL team.

theKramer

MaryKing wrote: »

If you say its indisputable, I guess it must be!

Munster also lost Barry Murphy & Ian Dowling last season to career ending injury.

Barry Murphy hadnt played regularly in years due to continual injury and Ian Dowling is from Kilkenny, I think, making him another import....

CIARAN_BOYLE

MaryKing wrote: »

At a guess, I'd say a lot of them are not on huge money as they are very young. I think the way Munster try to develop players is by fielding a competitive team in the British & Irish Cup so you actually need 23+ players for that if you want to do that, and then you need another 23+ for Heineken Cup. Then you have injuries (which are fairly extensive at the moment). They all mount up.

Conor Murray & Mike Sherry were introduced this way and they made the step up very well from B+I, to Magners and in the case of Conor Murray, international. Perhaps that has a lot to do with that at least the younger players are used to playing together before they even play Magners and not just being pulled in from the AIL team.

48 man squad and a 17 man academy surely thats overkill. If you are going to have that many players using the B&I cup as an excuse tell me how far Munster got last season in the tournament? Didn't get out of the groups if I recall correctly

MaryKing

theKramer wrote: »

Barry Murphy hadnt played regularly in years due to continual injury and Ian Dowling is from Kilkenny, I think, making him another import....

Not regularly, but he was in the squad. I wouldn't count Ian Dowling an import - he played all his rugby union in Munster (starting with Shannon).

AtItAllDayRef

theKramer wrote: »

Barry Murphy hadnt played regularly in years due to continual injury and Ian Dowling is from Kilkenny, I think, making him another import....

Oh for the love of jesus... does that mean ROG is from the USA or Houdini is from Israel?

Podge_irl

AtItAllDayRef wrote: »

Oh for the love of jesus... does that mean Houdini is from Israel?

Actually, he's from Hungary.

MaryKing

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

48 man squad and a 17 man academy surely thats overkill. If you are going to have that many players using the B&I cup as an excuse tell me how far Munster got last season in the tournament? Didn't get out of the groups if I recall correctly

This weekend, Munster need 46 players for competitive competitions. (B+I Cup are the same weekends as Heineken Cup).

Take out the injured and Munster are down Horan, Hurley, Flannery, Sherry, Borlase, David Wallace, Keith Earls & Marcus Horan. That brings the squad back to 40.

The likes of Toulouse only need 23+ this weekend. Munster needs 46.

If 17 in the Academy are good, but not ready yet to play rugby, what do you do. Its still early days to see how they are going to progress, so better give them a chance.

Edit: Munster A didn't get out of their group last year is true. That maybe down to the fact that players like Sherry were playing for their AIL club and & B+I Cup in the one weekend. They played 9 games though.

wixfjord

Ah will you leave it so Mary.
Such utter horse****e.
Your province is on a downward spiral in real terms because of it's utter refusal to accept these issues, so it's great to see you're the exact same.

Podge_irl

MaryKing wrote: »

If 17 in the Academy are good, but not ready yet to play rugby, what do you do.

If players in the academy aren't ready to play rugby in the B&I cup they should very quickly be shipped out of the academy and never contemplate a pro rugby career ever again.

The B&I cup is designed precisely for those players.

profitius

They should reduce the main squad, leave the academy alone and have development players from the UBL on stand by.

AtItAllDayRef

MaryKing wrote: »

This weekend, Munster need 46 players for competitive competitions. (B+I Cup are the same weekends as Heineken Cup).

Take out the injured and Munster are down Horan, Hurley, Flannery, Sherry, Borlase, David Wallace, Keith Earls & Marcus Horan. That brings the squad back to 40.

The likes of Toulouse only need 23+ this weekend. Munster needs 46.

If 17 in the Academy are good, but not ready yet to play rugby, what do you do. Its still early days to see how they are going to progress, so better give them a chance.

This thread has no need for stupid things like facts such as we need 46 players for this weekend. Lets keep this thread on track with things about which players are really imports and guessing how much squad players who are now "AIL pro's" earn.

MaryKing

Podge_irl wrote: »

If players in the academy aren't ready to play rugby in the B&I cup they should very quickly be shipped out of the academy and never contemplate a pro rugby career ever again.

The B&I cup is designed precisely for those players.

Whatever - so do you think Munster should have a much smaller academy then?

AtItAllDayRef

profitius wrote: »

They should reduce the main squad, leave the academy alone and have development players from the UBL on stand by.

Funny enough Munster do have players on development contracts but they are listed in the numbers for the main squad. Who'd have thought it eh?

wixfjord

AtItAllDayRef wrote: »

This thread has no need for stupid things like facts such as we need 46 players for this weekend. Lets keep this thread on track with things about which players are really imports and guessing how much squad players who are now "AIL pro's" earn.

The fact is, the B&I cup is for these academy players.
It's a bloated squad with a great nucleus, a poor manager and a lot of dross, there's your fact.

wixfjord

MaryKing wrote: »

Whatever - so do you think Munster should have a much smaller academy then?

No, as has been put across numerous times, they should have a slightly smaller squad and use the academy more.

MaryKing

wixfjord wrote: »

No, as has been put across numerous times, they should have a slightly smaller squad and use the academy more.

Podge seems to think differently.

AtItAllDayRef

wixfjord wrote: »

It's a bloated squad with a great nucleus, a poor manager and a lot of dross, there's your fact.

thats an opinion not a fact. A widely held opinion but still not a fact.

wixfjord

MaryKing wrote: »

Podge seems to think differently.

No he doesn't, youre talking ****e.
He said that if they aren't good enough to play B&I they should be shipped out, because it they're carried, they'll become the Tommy O Donnells or Billy Hollands of 5 years down the line, and the circle will continue.

MaryKing

wixfjord wrote: »

The fact is, the B&I cup is for these academy players.
It's a bloated squad with a great nucleus, a poor manager and a lot of dross, there's your fact.

This is the B+I Cup team for tonight:

How many of those would you be happy to see in the 23 of the Heineken Cup game against Northampton tomorrow?

Munster: Luke O'Dea; Ronan O'Mahony, Tom Gleeson, JJ Hanrahan, Simon Zebo; Scott Deasy, Peter Stringer; Dave Kilcoyne, Sean Henry, Stephen Archer; Mick O'Driscoll, Ian Nagle; Billy Holland, Tommy O'Donnell, Paddy Butler. Replacements: Duncan Casey, John Ryan, Dave Foley, Brian O'Hara, Duncan Williams, Darren Moroney (UL Bohs), Corey Hircock.

Risteard

wixfjord wrote: »

No, as has been put across numerous times, they should have a slightly smaller squad and use the academy more.

Kind of sums it up.

We do need players with experience to cover injuries but there seems to be a level of players in Munster that are in their mid-twenties yet have little to no experience, these guys then block the younger players from getting game time and are realistically unlikely to make it. You might get lucky with a guy like Coughlan who waited a long time and is capable of performing to a decent standard but the odds are against that.

Realistically more ruthlessness is required, guys like MOD, who have been fantastic players and played very important parts in our previous seasons shouldn't be ahead of the likes of Nagle who put in an outstanding performance pretty much every time he played last season. (I know he's been unfortunate with injury at the beginning of this season)

wixfjord

MaryKing wrote: »

This is the B+I Cup team for tonight:

How many of those would you be happy to see in the 23 of the Heineken Cup game against Northampton tomorrow?

Munster: Luke O'Dea; Ronan O'Mahony, Tom Gleeson, JJ Hanrahan, Simon Zebo; Scott Deasy, Peter Stringer; Dave Kilcoyne, Sean Henry, Stephen Archer; Mick O'Driscoll, Ian Nagle; Billy Holland, Tommy O'Donnell, Paddy Butler. Replacements: Duncan Casey, John Ryan, Dave Foley, Brian O'Hara, Duncan Williams, Darren Moroney (UL Bohs), Corey Hircock.

What has that got to do with anything?

thomond2006

There are a few 26/27 year olds that perhaps should be binned for youngsters. Then again some are late developers, I would have said at the start of last season that Donnacha Ryan was never going to improve.

It should be considered in a position by position basis. For the back three, Denis Hurley is a decent squad player who is pretty solid and consistent, but hopefully Zebo will get gametime at Pro12 level and go past him in the pecking order within the next 2 seasons. At lock, Billy Holland is ahead of Ian Nagle which is a joke considering how well Nagle played when he got a chance last season.

Risteard

MaryKing wrote: »

This is the B+I Cup team for tonight:

How many of those would you be happy to see in the 23 of the Heineken Cup game against Northampton tomorrow?

Munster: Luke O'Dea; Ronan O'Mahony, Tom Gleeson, JJ Hanrahan, Simon Zebo; Scott Deasy, Peter Stringer; Dave Kilcoyne, Sean Henry, Stephen Archer; Mick O'Driscoll, Ian Nagle; Billy Holland, Tommy O'Donnell, Paddy Butler. Replacements: Duncan Casey, John Ryan, Dave Foley, Brian O'Hara, Duncan Williams, Darren Moroney (UL Bohs), Corey Hircock.

Question is, how many of those young players, thinking along the lines of Hanrahan, Zebo, Nagle, O'Donnell would be in a better position to step up to HC level had they received more Pro12 gametime?

Look at the situation we're in tomorrow with J Ryan, who to my knowledge has only had a couple of minutes this season, he may have to come off the bench against Mujati.

wixfjord

thomond2006 wrote: »

There are a few 26/27 year olds that perhaps should be binned for youngsters. Then again some are late developers, I would have said at the start of last season that Donnacha Ryan was never going to improve.

It should be considered in a position by position basis. For the back three, Denis Hurley is a decent squad player who is pretty solid and consistent, but hopefully Zebo will get gametime at Pro12 level and go past him in the pecking order within the next 2 seasons. At lock, Billy Holland is ahead of Ian Nagle which is a joke considering how well Nagle played when he got a chance last season.

Holland, O Donnell, Gleeson, Williams, Hurley are all examples of guys who should be cut imo.

MaryKing

wixfjord wrote: »

No he doesn't, youre talking ****e.
He said that if they aren't good enough to play B&I they should be shipped out, because it they're carried, they'll become the Tommy O Donnells or Billy Hollands of 5 years down the line, and the circle will continue.

Both of those have been involved in 5 games this season so far. Maybe they will be let go this year, but I doubt if Munster is the only club who reaslised that the world cup was on.

RuggieBear

wixfjord, you are diatribing and you need to tone it down. If you post like that again anywhere on the forum you will be banned. Don't post again on this thread for a couple of days.

MaryKing

Risteard wrote: »

Question is, how many of those young players, thinking along the lines of Hanrahan, Zebo, Nagle, O'Donnell would be in a better position to step up to HC level had they received more Pro12 gametime?

Look at the situation we're in tomorrow with J Ryan, who to my knowledge has only had a couple of minutes this season, he may have to come off the bench against Mujati.

The combination of AIL & B+I Cup seems to have worked very well for Murray & Sherry (and indeed Peter O'Mahony) who has not played a huge amount at Magners level (19 games, mostly off the bench).