Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

Amazotheamazing

I think the truth is somewhere in between, yes, Munster have a good few players too many, but at the same time, you can't throw most Academy players into top level HEC games.

MaryKing

Risteard wrote: »

Kind of sums it up.

We do need players with experience to cover injuries but there seems to be a level of players in Munster that are in their mid-twenties yet have little to no experience, these guys then block the younger players from getting game time and are realistically unlikely to make it. You might get lucky with a guy like Coughlan who waited a long time and is capable of performing to a decent standard but the odds are against that.

Realistically more ruthlessness is required, guys like MOD, who have been fantastic players and played very important parts in our previous seasons shouldn't be ahead of the likes of Nagle who put in an outstanding performance pretty much every time he played last season. (I know he's been unfortunate with injury at the beginning of this season)

Would you have Nagle on the bench this weekend in the Heineken Cup (ahead of DOC)?

ormond lad

MaryKing wrote: »

Both of those have been involved in 5 games this season so far. Maybe they will be let go this year, but I doubt if Munster is the only club who reaslised that the world cup was on.

Mary, munsters biggest problem is that there is a group of players aged 25-28 who have very little gametime with munster(and dont look like ever being regular HC starters due to talent or whatever) and are being used in pro 12 games ahead of players like nagle etc who are young enough and certainly from the little weve seen of them good enough to play Heineken rugby in the future.
For any game if both billy holland and ian nagle are fit nagle should start, if simon zebo and denis hurley are both fit zebo should start. Hurley was unlucky with injuries but what has holland ever really shown he is capable of. has there ever been a performance by him where afterwards you were thinking how well he played in contrast to nagle who everyone was talking about after the game v the ozzies
It seems to me as if management dont want to use the younger player as they want to use the player they trust more. We would be better off if we threw caution to the wind and tried the younger players, so what if they make a few mistakes in pro 12 games. If we dont try them we'll never know how good they are until it may be too late

Amazotheamazing

ormond lad wrote: »

Mary, munsters biggest problem is that there is a group of players aged 25-28 who have very little gametime with munster(and dont look like ever being regular HC starters due to talent or whatever) and are being used in pro 12 games ahead of players like nagle etc who are young enough and certainly from the little weve seen of them good enough to play Heineken rugby in the future.
For any game if both billy holland and ian nagle are fit nagle should start, if simon zebo and denis hurley are both fit zebo should start. Hurley was unlucky with injuries but what has holland ever really shown he is capable of. has there ever been a performance by him where afterwards you were thinking how well he played in contrast to nagle who everyone was talking about after the game v the ozzies
It seems to me as if management dont want to use the younger player as they want to use the player they trust more. We would be better off if we threw caution to the wind and tried the younger players, so what if they make a few mistakes in pro 12 games. If we dont try them we'll never know how good they are until it may be too late

Holland v. Nagle isn't a good comparison because when he's fit, Nagle is usually ahead of Holland. He'd overtaken him by the Oz game last year (got MOTM back to back, iirc) and then got injured.

Amazotheamazing

Podge_irl wrote: »

If players in the academy aren't ready to play rugby in the B&I cup they should very quickly be shipped out of the academy and never contemplate a pro rugby career ever again.

The B&I cup is designed precisely for those players.

I don't know, I think it's worth remembering that clubs are still a big part of rugby in Munster. In tomorrow HEC's 23, John Ryan is yet another player who missed out on the Academy but kept plugging away at club level. Comparable enough to how Mike Ross got on. It's up to him to take the chance like Ross did at Quins.

The B&I Cup should always feature some Academy players, but we shouldn't treat it like an u20's comp and close the door to guys we want to have a look at from the AIL.

MaryKing

ormond lad wrote: »

Mary, munsters biggest problem is that there is a group of players aged 25-28 who have very little gametime with munster(and dont look like ever being regular HC starters due to talent or whatever) and are being used in pro 12 games ahead of players like nagle etc who are young enough and certainly from the little weve seen of them good enough to play Heineken rugby in the future.
For any game if both billy holland and ian nagle are fit nagle should start, if simon zebo and denis hurley are both fit zebo should start. Hurley was unlucky with injuries but what has holland ever really shown he is capable of. has there ever been a performance by him where afterwards you were thinking how well he played in contrast to nagle who everyone was talking about after the game v the ozzies
It seems to me as if management dont want to use the younger player as they want to use the player they trust more. We would be better off if we threw caution to the wind and tried the younger players, so what if they make a few mistakes in pro 12 games. If we dont try them we'll never know how good they are until it may be too late

Ian Nagle would not be getting a game tonight except for Billy Holland (who is in the backrow) as Munster can field a full team. At this moment in time, both Ryan & DOC are better than he is.

By being competitive in the B+I Cup & AIL , I think Munster are learning how good they are. Isn't that where Northampton spotted Ian Nagle and decided to make him an offer?

Would you not agree that playing AIL & B+I Cup could possibly have helped Conor Murray, Sherry & Danny Barnes progress very quickly in the Magners?

Risteard

MaryKing wrote: »

Would you have Nagle on the bench this weekend in the Heineken Cup (ahead of DOC)?

No but I'd have him on the bench/starting for the vast majority of Pro12 games, which doesn't happen now as he's behind guys such as MOD and Holland. And if he continued his form from last year, there shouldn't be any reason why he wouldn't make the HC squad.

Podge_irl

MaryKing wrote: »

Podge seems to think differently.

What on Earth gave you that impression??

My entire point was just that all the academy players should be capable of playing in the B&I cup.

Podge_irl

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

The B&I Cup should always feature some Academy players, but we shouldn't treat it like an u20's comp and close the door to guys we want to have a look at from the AIL.

Oh, I agree entirely. Leinster have made a bit of use of the AIL too. It's exceptionally easy to miss a talent into the academy considering the ages of them.

The B&I is not reason to have 48 players or whatever it is in your senior squad is more my point.

profitius

AtItAllDayRef wrote: »

Funny enough Munster do have players on development contracts but they are listed in the numbers for the main squad. Who'd have thought it eh?

Well, they should have more on development contracts or at least have some amateur UBL players who are willing to fill in a few times a season when/if the squad is really stretched.

MaryKing

Risteard wrote: »

No but I'd have him on the bench/starting for the vast majority of Pro12 games, which doesn't happen now as he's behind guys such as MOD and Holland. And if he continued his form from last year, there shouldn't be any reason why he wouldn't make the HC squad.

Nagle started more games at lock last season than Holland did and on a few occasions he actually parnered him. Holland starts as much in the backrow as he does at lock. And Holland subs more than he starts, unlike Nagle who nearly always started when he was involved.

I think Mick O'Driscoll is needed as a captain, packleader, a bit of experience. You need fellows like that who are prepared to bench. It won't work too well if your entire squad are world beaters.

I take it Nagle has been injured as he has hardly played this season so far. This match looks like to be his first start of the season for Munster.

If Mick O'Driscoll & Holland were gone, who would you start instead of them tonight?

Amazotheamazing

Risteard wrote: »

No but I'd have him on the bench/starting for the vast majority of Pro12 games, which doesn't happen now as he's behind guys such as MOD and Holland. And if he continued his form from last year, there shouldn't be any reason why he wouldn't make the HC squad.

Again, he's not behind Holland, whenever he's fit he's usually started ahead of Holland.

Amazotheamazing

Podge_irl wrote: »

Oh, I agree entirely. Leinster have made a bit of use of the AIL too. It's exceptionally easy to miss a talent into the academy considering the ages of them.

The B&I is not reason to have 48 players or whatever it is in your senior squad is more my point.

I agree, 48 players is just too many. How to cull it and stay competitive at Pro12 level though.

I'll say it again, guys like Foley should be moved to Connacht, even for a mid-season loan. He's way down the list now and could be a better option for Connacht than Gannon (though i like Gannon).

Amazotheamazing

MaryKing wrote: »

If Mick O'Driscoll & Holland were gone, who would you start instead of them tonight?

Dave Foley in for MOD, TOD to 6 and BOH to start at 7.

Bring Donellan and Shane Buckley in to the 23.

profitius

Irish rugby is not making the most of the resources. Look at the A teams playing tonight. There are players who would boost Connacht.

MaryKing

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Dave Foley in for MOD, TOD to 6 and BOH to start at 7.

Bring Donellan and Shane Buckley in to the 23.

And who would be the pack leader? Who would be captain?

Didn't McGahan put a team out like that against either Treviso/Aironi last season and they lost?

Do you not think its a good thing to have a bit of experience around? I remember Ulster putting out a very inexperienced team against Munster last year and I honestly don't see what any one of them could have learned from that match except getting used to losing.

phog

profitius wrote: »

Anybody know anything about Darren Moroney who is sub on the Munster B&I cup squad? All I know is he is a winger for UL Bohs.

He played in one one of the A games against Connacht earlier in the season.

profitius wrote: »

Irish rugby is not making the most of the resources. Look at the A teams playing tonight. There are players who would boost Connacht.

Look at Keatley, Cronin and Carr, all sitting on the subs bench or in the case of Carr playing B&I cup while they could actually be starting the H/C game for Connacht. I dont know how the IRFU can tell players to sign for a province but it would have been great for Connacht if they could have held onto the 3 lads for at least this season.

MaryKing

profitius wrote: »

Irish rugby is not making the most of the resources. Look at the A teams playing tonight. There are players who would boost Connacht.

Liam Toland made that point today in the Irish Times - using the examples of Fionn Carr & Andrew Conway though.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/1111/1224307370412.html

I can understand why Conway wouldn't want to leave Leinster - and I can also understand why Munster would not want to let someone like Nagle go. (They still get stick I'm sure about Mike Ross).

Amazotheamazing

MaryKing wrote: »

And who would be the pack leader? Who would be captain?

Didn't McGahan put a team out like that against either Treviso/Aironi last season and they lost?

Do you not think its a good thing to have a bit of experience around? I remember Ulster putting out a very inexperienced team against Munster last year and I honestly don't see what any one of them could have learned from that match except getting used to losing.

For an A game? So what if they lose, is it really that important?

Amazotheamazing

phog wrote: »

He played in one one of the A games against Connacht earlier in the season.



Look at Keatley, Cronin and Carr, all sitting on the subs bench or in the case of Carr playing B&I cup while they could actually be starting the H/C game for Connacht. I dont know how the IRFU can tell players to sign for a province but it would have been great for Connacht if they could have held onto the 3 lads for at least this season.

Or Conway, isn't he top try scorer in the JRWC? Wonder how the New Zealand try scorers are getting on?

ormond lad

There is updates on mfs from the A game in clonmel,
Its halftime we are losing 3-0, its began to rain and according to whoevers at the game the pirates will have a tough time in the 2nd half
The 1st half was full of mistakes withs Munsters handling poor and their lineouts very poor, Butler is carrying well and JJ is looking good.
http://www.munsterfans.com/showthread.php/30094-Munster-v-Cornish-Pirates-game-tracker

OTHP

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I agree, 48 players is just too many. How to cull it and stay competitive at Pro12 level though.

I'll say it again, guys like Foley should be moved to Connacht, even for a mid-season loan. He's way down the list now and could be a better option for Connacht than Gannon (though i like Gannon).

This season Nagle, POM, Butler, Deasy, Sherry and Murray all went from development contracts or from the academy to full contracts mainly to cover for the RWC. John Ryan, Sean Henry, Scanlon, Dineen, Troy Smith have been signed up to development contracts and other such as Foley, Cusack, Bull etc got one year deals to cover this season with RWC and long term injuries. Our only final year academy players are DOC2.0 and O'Hara who are playing Pro12 and B+1 cup respectively.

Previously the squad has been large to cover the centrally contracted players for internationals and rest periods. Now its large to do with giving short contracts to lots of young players and see who we should keep on and who should be let go. Amateur players are not ready to play in a pro league. They need to be training full time and if they are young generally they need time to physically mature. An amateur with a day job and trying to train with an AIL club a few nights a week and then is asked to take time off to sit on a bench as cover to pad a squad isn't going to hang around for long. And lets not forget its not that long ago when we had the likes of Dutchy as video analyst togging out for us or calling the likes of Brian Madigan from the AIL to make up ML games.

ormond lad

ormond lad wrote: »

There is updates on mfs from the A game in clonmel,
Its halftime we are losing 3-0, its began to rain and according to whoevers at the game the pirates will have a tough time in the 2nd half
The 1st half was full of mistakes withs Munsters handling poor and their lineouts very poor, Butler is carrying well and JJ is looking good.
http://www.munsterfans.com/showthread.php/30094-Munster-v-Cornish-Pirates-game-tracker

Game over we lost 6 - 10

irishbucsfan

The only player on the Munster A team that would start for Connacht is possibly Zebo.

Unless you include MOD.

CIARAN_BOYLE

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The only player on the Munster A team that would start for Connacht is possibly Zebo.

Unless you include MOD.

Stringer would probably start at 9 I'd have Nagle ahead of Swift and Henry would probably run Flavin close while Archer would get ahead of AhYou

irishbucsfan

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Stringer would probably start at 9 I'd have Nagle ahead of Swift and Henry would probably run Flavin close while Archer would get ahead of AhYou

I don't think Stringer would start at 9, but even then I wouldn't include him for the same reason as MOD, would do no good to move him to Connacht.

No way would Nagle start ahead of Mick Swift, similarly Flavin is way better than Henry from what I've seen of both of them.

Archer is probably ahead of Ah You though, I agree. Although Ah You looks good at times as well.

ormond lad

Only noticed when someone on mfs mentioned it(hadnt noticed it myself when at the game), but munsterrugby must bring back the minis games at half time. Give kids possibly some future Munster players the chance to play in Thomond park. What was going on at h/t was nothing to do with rugby,
It is such a good idea that it should always be done

NickDrake

ormond lad wrote: »

Only noticed when someone on mfs mentioned it(hadnt noticed it myself when at the game), but munsterrugby must bring back the minis games at half time. Give kids possibly some future Munster players the chance to play in Thomond park. What was going on at h/t was nothing to do with rugby,
It is such a good idea that it should always be done

Was it ever done for Heineken cups games? Thought the kids were only on at Celtic/Magners/pro 12 games?

ormond lad

ormond lad wrote: »

Only noticed when someone on mfs mentioned it(hadnt noticed it myself when at the game), but munsterrugby must bring back the minis games at half time. Give kids possibly some future Munster players the chance to play in Thomond park. What was going on at h/t was nothing to do with rugby,
It is such a good idea that it should always be done

NickDrake wrote: »

Was it ever done for Heineken cups games? Thought the kids were only on at Celtic/Magners/pro 12 games?

Has always been done in Heineken Cup games, younger brother did it once or twice and 1 of them was definitely a heineken game

thomond2006

du Preez, Varley, Botha, Ryan, O'Connell, Leamy, O'Mahony, Cawlin;
Murray, O'Gara, Hurley, Mafi, Barnes, Dougie, Murphy

Bench: Fogarty, Ryan/Horan, Hayes, O'Callaghan, Ronan, O'Leary, Keatley, Chambers

Leamy made a big impact when he came on so I'd have him in ahead of Ronan with POM moving to 7. Ronan mixed the good with the bad against Northampton, he is involved in so much play everytime he plays but he is generally ineffective.

Ryan played very well at lock so I'd keep him there, although DOC was very busy when he came on.