Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

Amazotheamazing

vinny chase wrote: »

I dunno about that.

It's a lot tougher to build yourself up to perform against the likes of Glasgow and Montpelier (no disrespect intended towards those teams) than it is for teams like Clermont-Auvergne and Saracens (who at that point were running away with the AP). Leinster could suffer a little from the fact that they'll be expected to win every game without much bother, and that's never a good mindset for a team going out.

I know people will say these guys are professionals, but this is a problem that usually affects Irish sports teams. Munster always thrived as well when their backs were to the wall.

I really think Munster and Leinster have put that to rest now, though maybe Munster will need to revisit it given the new reality. In the ML both are usually favourites when they enter a game and I expect Leinster are unbackable favourites for every pool game.

PhatPiggins

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I really think Munster and Leinster have put that to rest now, though maybe Munster will need to revisit it given the new reality. In the ML both are usually favourites when they enter a game and I expect Leinster are unbackable favourites for every pool game.

Handicap for the Leinster game is only -3, very tempting. Sorry to go off topic

bamboozle

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I don't see how it's not comparable, all four are crucial members of our team. Flannery and Wallace would be our main carriers in the pack and Earls and Jones would be our most dangerous backs.

If its comparable then its a damning indictment of the Munster management to allow a situation where a 35 year old backrower and a hooker who hasnt been injury free in 2 years are considered crucial players in their squad.

Neither Sherry or Jones have started a HC game and are considerably less experienced than Cronin & Nacewa. Ok Cronin hasnt started a HC game but he's got great experience with Connacht and has been around the Irish squad for 3 seasons.

Fireball07

bamboozle wrote: »

If its comparable then its a damning indictment of the Munster management to allow a situation where a 35 year old backrower and a hooker who hasnt been injury free in 2 years are considered crucial players in their squad.

Neither Sherry or Jones have started a HC game and are considerably less experienced than Cronin & Nacewa. Ok Cronin hasnt started a HC game but he's got great experience with Connacht and has been around the Irish squad for 3 seasons.

Well Varley and Fogarty have been around Munster squads for years but Sherry is just better than them. Plain and simple, really. Munster have lost their 2 best hookers at the moment.

ed7890

bamboozle wrote: »

If its comparable then its a damning indictment of the Munster management to allow a situation where a 35 year old backrower and a hooker who hasnt been injury free in 2 years are considered crucial players in their squad.

It's a damning indictment of Munster ... that 2 guys who would start for Ireland if fit ... are important to the squad?

wixfjord

ed7890 wrote: »

It's a damning indictment of Munster ... that 2 guys who would start for Ireland if fit ... are important to the squad?

Not anymore, and yes, it's damming of McGahan and the youth set up that no steady replacements have been found.

ed7890

wixfjord wrote: »

Not anymore, and yes, it's damming of McGahan and the youth set up that no steady replacements have been found.

Can we agree that they are such quality players that they were a loss to Ireland when they got injured this Autumn? That's what I'm trying to convey, they both of such a high quality that any club would struggle to replace them with somebody of equal quality.

We seem to have a replacement found for one of them in Sherry, and now he's injured too.

Wallace's injury has affected Munster even more because the backrow is somewhere we currently have a weakness. It would be like Leinster would struggle with injuries in the 2nd row.

bamboozle

ed7890 wrote: »

It's a damning indictment of Munster ... that 2 guys who would start for Ireland if fit ... are important to the squad?

yes, when one is 35 and the other has had no luck with injuries since before the 2009 Lions tour. I'm not doubting ability here, i'm questioning management dependency on them at this stage of 2 great careers.

It is a damning indictment of the squad building (or lack thereof) not because they are important, but that there is an absolutely massive drop off in terms of quality and experience.

That's probably what you mean bamboozle? That there has been little development of "cushions" in terms of players to fill roles left by injuries etc.

Amazotheamazing

Deleted User wrote: »

It is a damning indictment of the squad building (or lack thereof) not because they are important, but that there is an absolutely massive drop off in terms of quality and experience.

That's probably what you mean bamboozle? That there has been little development of "cushions" in terms of players to fill roles left by injuries etc.

tbf, Flannery and wallace, at their best, were among the best players in Europe, it's not like you can just replace that quality overnight, all the moreso when you have to rely on your own systems to replace it. Ireland has never had the resources to cover the loss of top quality players, I'm surprised so many people seem to think it's something a province should do with ease.

RuggieBear

Its a damning indictment on our posters that they are so hyperbolic.

Personally, I think people are desperately trying to avoid the middle ground here. Could Munster have better preparation for missing some of these players? Sure. But imo the quality in all provinces drops off markedly with even a few injuries in certain positions

[Jackass]

I think it's wishful thinking that Kidney is behind the Ronan selection.

He didn't even travel to the world cup and would be behind several players for the 7 jersey with Ireland, including young players coming through.

Unfortunately, I'd say that's 100% McGahans call.

As for Barnes / Chambers, if I was a Munster fan I'd much prefer to see Barnes in there rather than a journey man. How much of the first team do you want to be imports? Barnes has looked good and games like this will make him better. I'd be more than happy with homegrown players.

Whilst Munster injuries are bad, Leinster have had awful runs of injuries at different points over the last couple of years, weren't we minus 20+ players at some point this season including world cup lads? I think Munster need to have faith with the young fellas to do the job, and it's better to give the young players a chance and the experience and fail than to have a bunch of signings who wont be around forever and prolong the problem, imo.

This is a massive game for Munster though, a season defining game so early in the season.

Amazotheamazing

RuggieBear wrote: »

Its a damning indictment on our posters that they are so hyperbolic.

Personally, I think people are desperately trying to avoid the middle ground here. Could Munster have better preparation for missing some of these players? Sure. But imo the quality in all provinces drops off markedly with even a few injuries in certain positions

A bigger problem is you just can't predict how a certain player will step-up until you've given them a good run at that level. Some guys do it and some guys can't. Fitzgerald, for example, has a decent try scoring record for Leinster but is nowhere to be seen at International level.

bamboozle

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

tbf, Flannery and wallace, at their best, were among the best players in Europe, it's not like you can just replace that quality overnight, all the moreso when you have to rely on your own systems to replace it. Ireland has never had the resources to cover the loss of top quality players, I'm surprised so many people seem to think it's something a province should do with ease.

but that's my point exactly, these are not 'over night' problems, Munster mgt should have seen these issues coming down the tracks as far back as 2009 and have failed to act sufficiently.

Amazotheamazing

bamboozle wrote: »

but that's my point exactly, these are not 'over night' problems, Munster mgt should have seen these issues coming down the tracks as far back as 2009 and have failed to act sufficiently.

And we've been trying to bring through players like Sherry and POM, that's how it goes. Honestly, some people want any excuse to knock another province.

Amazotheamazing

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

And we've been trying to bring through players like Sherry and POM, that's how it goes. Honestly, some people want any excuse to knock another province.

Not really, some of us have been following Irish rugby for a long time and are pretty upset at how badly things have been allowed to develop at one of the most important places in the whole country for Irish Rugby development. For a sport that only has 4 major teams in the country for people to focus on, losing any sort of momentum with one of them can be pretty rough for the national game.

Critical analysis isn't "knocking", it's critical analysis. Thicken up that skin! jacothelad can come on and post scathingly honest criticism of Ulster rugby and he's one of their biggest fans on here. The ability to be objective never hurt anyone.

phog

From Munsterrugby.ie

Strong Side For Clonmel

Munster have named a strong side that includes internationals Mick O'Driscoll and Peter Stringer for the British & Irish Cup clash with Cornish Pirates at Clonmel RFC tomorrow evening (7pm)

But besides that pair, coach Ian Costello is able to call on players such as Tommy O'Donnell, Stephen Archer, Scott Deasy Tom Gleeson and skipper Billy Holland who have a wealth of RaboDirect PRO12 League experience to call on.
And Munster will need all that experience against a visiting side who are enjoying a rich vein of form right now. They've haven't been beaten in five games since losing in Bedford in early October and are leading the Championship by a point from Bristol.

Last time out they beat the Andre Bester coached Rotherham Titans 30-13 and 15 of that match day squad will be on duty tomorrow night in Clonmel.

Munster: Luke O'Dea; Ronan O'Mahony, Tom Gleeson, JJ Hanrahan, Simon Zebo; Scott Deasy, Peter Stringer; Dave Kilcoyne, Sean Henry, Stephen Archer; Mick O'Driscoll, Ian Nagle; Billy Holland, Tommy O'Donnell, Paddy Butler. Replacements: Duncan Casey, John Ryan, Dave Foley, Brian O'Hara, Duncan Williams, Corey JJ Hircock, Darren Moroney

Cornish Pirates: Matt Evans; Rhodri McAtee, Drew Locke, Sam Hill, David Doherty; Rob Cook, Tom Kessell; Ryan Storer, Dave Ward, Carl Rimmer; Laurie McGlone, Ian Nimmo; Chris Morgan, Charlie Walker-Blair, Kyle Marriott. Replacements: Tom Cowan-Dickie, Rob Elloway, Paul Andrew, Blair Cowan, Phil Burgess, Gavin cattle, Ryan Western.

phog

Quinny has tweeted

The interviews I did with Paul Rog Hayes on tues are on the rugby club tonight around 7.20 on Sky Sports 1 thanks to Sky

profitius

Deleted User wrote: »

Not really, some of us have been following Irish rugby for a long time and are pretty upset at how badly things have been allowed to develop at one of the most important places in the whole country for Irish Rugby development. For a sport that only has 4 major teams in the country for people to focus on, losing any sort of momentum with one of them can be pretty rough for the national game.

Critical analysis isn't "knocking", it's critical analysis. Thicken up that skin! jacothelad can come on and post scathingly honest criticism of Ulster rugby and he's one of their biggest fans on here. The ability to be objective never hurt anyone.

Yeah I'd agree with you there, Emmet.

Up until now Munster have been poor in bringing players through. The academy has not worked and the team selection has been shocking.

There are good signs of things changing for the better. The academy is doing better than it has, numbers in the Irish U19 and 18 squads are up since last season, theres always coaching clinics around the province, youth rugby is being taken seriously, the scrums are also being taken seriously these days etc. Munster are at least heading in the right direction.

This is where competition has been good for Irish rugby. Leinster learned alot from Munster and now all the other provinces are learning from Leinster the benefits of having a good conveyor belt of players coming through etc. Its great for Irish rugby.

It looks like the penny has finally dropped for McGahan. He has finally realised that giving the younger players equal opportunity means more competition within the squad and result in a stronger team that will make Munster stronger. It took him to the end of last season to figure that one out. Foley being made forwards coach has also helped get back to basics.

Amazotheamazing

Deleted User wrote: »

Not really, some of us have been following Irish rugby for a long time and are pretty upset at how badly things have been allowed to develop at one of the most important places in the whole country for Irish Rugby development. For a sport that only has 4 major teams in the country for people to focus on, losing any sort of momentum with one of them can be pretty rough for the national game.

Critical analysis isn't "knocking", it's critical analysis. Thicken up that skin! jacothelad can come on and post scathingly honest criticism of Ulster rugby and he's one of their biggest fans on here. The ability to be objective never hurt anyone.

Anyone who was following rugby closely would realise improvements are starting to bear fruit.

bamboozle

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

And we've been trying to bring through players like Sherry and POM, that's how it goes. Honestly, some people want any excuse to knock another province.

i'm not trying to knock the province, far from it, i'm pointing the finger at mgt failures to identify weaknesses and rectify them. If i was trying to knock the province i'd be happy with the manner in which Mcgahan & co had gone about.

Amazotheamazing

Interesting A side, I've mixed feelings about MOD and Stringer, we need to give them games but should that time be invested in other players? I'd like to see Hircock ahead of Gleeson too.

vinny chase

Who is Luke O'Dea? Any of the Munster fans able to say much about him?

Amazotheamazing

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Anyone who was following rugby closely would realise improvements are starting to bear fruit.

Loose insult?

As discussed previously, all "improvements" have been pretty negligible, and the crop of "promising youth" posted 2 years ago has gotten all of 40 games between them since then.

Compare with AN Other province and there is an absolute dearth of opportunities for development to occur. Simply stating "they are starting to bear fruit" is fair bs without any kinds of details, facts or figures. I asked you before to detail why you believe that changes have happened and you were unable to do so. Evidence given of opportunities and of "fruition" were discovered to be padded with A games and B&I cup game appearances.

I don't know of any Grand National winners that ever ran at Shelbourne Park on a Tuesday night as practice in the 6months before the big race...

If you think I'm "insulting" or "having a go" at Munster, and are simply replying to me to ask me not to, I can understand that. It's not a nice situation for a fan to be in, to have their team's development questioned. But instead of simply replying for the sake of it, perhaps step back and logically think through what has happened in the past 5/6 years at Munster, who has made it, who hasn't, what has happened to them, who has moved on to other things, who has stuck around to sponge off others, what kind of teams are being produced, what kind of players are being transferred in etc.

I'd be genuinely interested in what kind of improvements you think have occurred, beyond a statement of "things are changing, things are getting better" etc...

wixfjord

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Anyone who was following rugby closely would realise improvements are starting to bear fruit.

Where is this fruit?
You've an up and coming winger in Zebo, and a first team winger gets injured.
It's looking likely that Hurley will come in to replace him.

Quinlan steps down, everyone says POM is the next big thing, and Ronan starts the first big game of the year.

Barnes has a good end of year, is hailed as the next big thing, and they sign an Aussie rugby league convert for three months to play ahead of him.

There's been loads of talk for years about Munster's great propping academy, yet when Horan and Hayes finally finish, they'll be left with two NIQs, with guys like Timmy Ryan shipped off to Europe.

DOC has been on a downward slide for the past year, and neither Ryan or Nagle can seem to get past him.

The recent U20s sides have been almost devoid of any Munster players.

I could go on.

Sure, there are guys there like Hanrahan, but, true to form, he won't get much of a chance when his time comes either.

The only young player of note who has come through in Munster in the last two years is probably Murray, and that's because of how incredibly bad O'Leary is.

Defend your province all you like, but all of the above is staring you in the face.

The succession planning has been non-existent, to the point where Munster fans are now fearing a home game at the start of the HEC.

budhabob

Deleted User wrote: »

Loose insult?

As discussed previously, all "improvements" have been pretty negligible, and the crop of "promising youth" posted 2 years ago has gotten all of 40 games between them since then.

Compare with AN Other province and there is an absolute dearth of opportunities for development to occur. Simply stating "they are starting to bear fruit" is fair bs without any kinds of details, facts or figures. I asked you before to detail why you believe that changes have happened and you were unable to do so. Evidence given of opportunities and of "fruition" were discovered to be padded with A games and B&I cup game appearances.

I don't know of any Grand National winners that ever ran at Shelbourne Park on a Tuesday night as practice in the 6months before the big race...

If you think I'm "insulting" or "having a go" at Munster, and are simply replying to me to ask me not to, I can understand that. It's not a nice situation for a fan to be in, to have their team's development questioned. But instead of simply replying for the sake of it, perhaps step back and logically think through what has happened in the past 5/6 years at Munster, who has made it, who hasn't, what has happened to them, who has moved on to other things, who has stuck around to sponge off others, what kind of teams are being produced, what kind of players are being transferred in etc.

I'd be genuinely interested in what kind of improvements you think have occurred, beyond a statement of "things are changing, things are getting better" etc...

I agree with the above...unfortunately. I have been guilty of throwing a blind eye, hoping players will make good (without getting any gametime) etc. But its beyond a joke now. Personally seeing the B&I team I find quite depressing, archer and TOD named when I think Archer (for experience sake) should be ahead of hayes, and TOD ahead of Ronin.

vinny chase

budhabob wrote: »

I agree with the above...unfortunately. I have been guilty of throwing a blind eye, hoping players will make good (without getting any gametime) etc. But its beyond a joke now. Personally seeing the B&I team I find quite depressing, archer and TOD named when I think Archer (for experience sake) should be ahead of hayes, and TOD ahead of Ronin.

Are you a Munster fan budhabob? It says your location thing is Portarlington.

budhabob

vinny chase wrote: »

Are you a Munster fan budhabob? It says your location thing is Portarlington.

Yup, Munster Born and bred (cork to be precise). Living in Portarlington for work. Was a season ticket holder up to this year.....damn recession.

Amazotheamazing

Deleted User wrote: »

Loose insult?

As discussed previously, all "improvements" have been pretty negligible, and the crop of "promising youth" posted 2 years ago has gotten all of 40 games between them since then.

Compare with AN Other province and there is an absolute dearth of opportunities for development to occur. Simply stating "they are starting to bear fruit" is fair bs without any kinds of details, facts or figures. I asked you before to detail why you believe that changes have happened and you were unable to do so. Evidence given of opportunities and of "fruition" were discovered to be padded with A games and B&I cup game appearances.

I don't know of any Grand National winners that ever ran at Shelbourne Park on a Tuesday night as practice in the 6months before the big race...

If you think I'm "insulting" or "having a go" at Munster, and are simply replying to me to ask me not to, I can understand that. It's not a nice situation for a fan to be in, to have their team's development questioned. But instead of simply replying for the sake of it, perhaps step back and logically think through what has happened in the past 5/6 years at Munster, who has made it, who hasn't, what has happened to them, who has moved on to other things, who has stuck around to sponge off others, what kind of teams are being produced, what kind of players are being transferred in etc.

I'd be genuinely interested in what kind of improvements you think have occurred, beyond a statement of "things are changing, things are getting better" etc...

More of the same from you Emmet.

you're overly eager to compare Munster to Leinster and Ulster when it's a comparison that can't hold weight. Leinster and Ulster have more rugby schools, more rugby boarding schools and generally, as they are "rich" schools, more money to put into rugby programmes. This is evidenced by the fact that there are far more schools players in Leinster or Ulster than Munster. If you accept that you can see why any comparison is bound to fail.

However, assuming you don't accept that, and want to know what's been wrong with the system once the Academy comes in is it was largely ignored until McGahan took over. Even though it was already drawing from a smaller pool than either leinster or Ulster it didn't maximise the players it did have. I would think this is widely accepted too, but still I'll go on.

Since McGahan took over, in the 3 years since, the players leaving the Academy are at a higher standard (Sherry v. Fogs, Murray v. Williams, POM v. TOD, Nagle v. Holland, Barnes v. Gleeson). Now, even you will have to accept you can't right mis-management of an Academy overnight, and to have succeeded in bringing guys through in three years is actually a fair achievement. Hence, things are starting to improve.

Of course there's a long way to go, no one is doubting that, but all signs indicate that the decline has stopped and real rebuilding is occurred, in an Academy context.

ed7890

wixfjord wrote: »

Where is this fruit?
You've an up and coming winger in Zebo, and a first team winger gets injured.
It's looking likely that Hurley will come in to replace him.

Quinlan steps down, everyone says POM is the next big thing, and Ronan starts the first big game of the year.

Barnes has a good end of year, is hailed as the next big thing, and they sign an Aussie rugby league convert for three months to play ahead of him.

There's been loads of talk for years about Munster's great propping academy, yet when Horan and Hayes finally finish, they'll be left with two NIQs, with guys like Timmy Ryan shipped off to Europe.

DOC has been on a downward slide for the past year, and neither Ryan or Nagle can seem to get past him.

The recent U20s sides have been almost devoid of any Munster players

I would be prefer more young players to get a run, but it's not all bad from McG. He has shown some faith in the younger players. I would say a lot of what you listed there is overstated, which isn't helpful in the discussion either.

When Munster fans correct something like that, we're blindly defending our province and can't see the problems. We can.