Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

ormond lad

rumours on munsterfans that Ian Sherwin is gone as head of the academy. Anyone hear why or who will replace him??

GerM

ormond lad wrote: »

rumours on munsterfans that Ian Sherwin is gone as head of the academy. Anyone hear why or who will replace him??

If he has been sacked (and not left of his own accord), it can't come as a surprise to anyone but it's harsh on Sherwin I feel. The level of development simply has not been good enough. He's not the only one though and it could be a case of being scapegoated. The underage structure was severely neglected and glossed over in Munster for years due to a glut of fantastic players freakishly emerging at the same time. In the space of about 3 or 4 years about 5 Lions and 10 internationals came on the scene in Munster which is simply unreal especially given that all of them were from positions 1-10. DK has to take some level of responsibility for the lack of putting underage structures in place. There was a blind eye turned to it as long as the senior team was delivering which they did in spades.

In the past 3 years Munster have started to produce some players but not to the extent that has been required. Sherwin took the position in 2008 and since then we've seen Murray, Nagle, Sherry, O'Mahoney, Butler, Deasy, Barnes, Zebo amongst others emerge. An academy does not produce overnight. It takes time and only in the last 2 years have we really seen the full benefits of the academy efforts in Leinster which have been in operation for 5 or 6 years at this stage. Before that, the truly gifted players like Kearney, Fitz and Heaslip came through directly to the senior team.

The lack of development in Munster isn't just down to the Munster academy or Sherwin either. The players aren't being developed from further down the line than that. At the FIRA U18 Championships that Ireland won this year only 4 of the 26 man squad were from Munster and only 1 in the starting team. The training and development at youth and schools level has to be examined.

ormond lad

ormond lad wrote: »

rumours on munsterfans that Ian Sherwin is gone as head of the academy. Anyone hear why or who will replace him??

GerM wrote: »

If he has been sacked (and not left of his own accord), it can't come as a surprise to anyone but it's harsh on Sherwin I feel. The level of development simply has not been good enough. He's not the only one though and it could be a case of being scapegoated. The underage structure was severely neglected and glossed over in Munster for years due to a glut of fantastic players freakishly emerging at the same time. In the space of about 3 or 4 years about 5 Lions and 10 internationals came on the scene in Munster which is simply unreal especially given that all of them were from positions 1-10. DK has to take some level of responsibility for the lack of putting underage structures in place. There was a blind eye turned to it as long as the senior team was delivering which they did in spades.

In the past 3 years Munster have started to produce some players but not to the extent that has been required. Sherwin took the position in 2008 and since then we've seen Murray, Nagle, Sherry, O'Mahoney, Butler, Deasy, Barnes, Zebo amongst others emerge. An academy does not produce overnight. It takes time and only in the last 2 years have we really seen the full benefits of the academy efforts in Leinster which have been in operation for 5 or 6 years at this stage. Before that, the truly gifted players like Kearney, Fitz and Heaslip came through directly to the senior team.

The lack of development in Munster isn't just down to the Munster academy or Sherwin either. The players aren't being developed from further down the line than that. At the FIRA U18 Championships that Ireland won this year only 4 of the 26 man squad were from Munster and only 1 in the starting team. The training and development at youth and schools level has to be examined.

My brother has been involved in the system,(got screwed out a chance to be on munster youths panel for september but thats another issue...)
The real problem is as you say Kidney neglected the academy as we had such a strong team between 2005 and 2008. no real thought was put into development of the players that would continue on after those who were in the driving seats at the time.
We have produced some very good players in the last year or two like murray, foley, nage etc but how much 1st team gametime have many of those lads got? Im going to be slightly harsh on the likes of MOD, but what is the point in playing him in a magners game against the likes of aironi etc, he is a decent HEC player, we should be playing the likes of nagle, foley etc in games like that with 1 of POC, DOC, DR and MOD on the bench if we need them

The main problem with munster developing players is some of the schools attitudes that winning a senior cup comes before all else. Their is some in the schools that only care about what is the best way for them to win a senior cup and that nothing else matters as long as that happens
The standards of youths rugby is improving year on year. From what ive heard the munster u19s squad which is the first representative squad with both youths and schools players competing against each other is close to half youths players and half schools

profitius

Its should be interesting to see what happens so. Just looking at MFs they say that the IRFU are looking to revamp all the academies with elite player groups. Interesting if true.

omad65

bamboozle wrote: »

Keatley's a brilliantly balanced player with great hands and an eye for a break, i just dont think he's big enough to play at 12 especially if that's outside ROG cause that would leave too weak a channel. He played 2 maybe 3 games for Clontarf at 15 and looked good but was unreal at 10 for them.

Keatly wasn't unreal at 10 for Clontarf, if anything he struggled due to his size. I agree though that he looked much better with less pressure on him at 15 for Clontarf.
He seems to have come on alot in Connacht, looks a much more confident 10 that he was a few years ago and dont see why he could do a job in the centre either.

pajunior

profitius wrote: »

Its should be interesting to see what happens so. Just looking at MFs they say that the IRFU are looking to revamp all the academies with elite player groups. Interesting if true.

Sounds interesting, any link to the info?

ormond lad

profitius wrote: »

Its should be interesting to see what happens so. Just looking at MFs they say that the IRFU are looking to revamp all the academies with elite player groups. Interesting if true.

pajunior wrote: »

Sounds interesting, any link to the info?

Nothing much said, profitus pretty much said all that was posted on munsterfans. http://www.munsterfans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15639&TPN=5

buck65

McGahan should be applauded for his attitude this season to giving fresh blood a chance. We are going into a difficult season with the likes of Barnes, Murray, Jones, Archer, Nagle having played a decent bit at a high level.

profitius

buck65 wrote: »

McGahan should be applauded for his attitude this season to giving fresh blood a chance. We are going into a difficult season with the likes of Barnes, Murray, Jones, Archer, Nagle having played a decent bit at a high level.

Yes credit to him for that but then you have the likes of Niall Ronan getting on ahead of TOD and POM. Murray only got his opportunity at the end of the season because of injuries. Maybe he is under pressure to get results. Hopefully he'll have seen how the academy players were able to step up last season and take it a step further.

Amazotheamazing

profitius wrote: »

Yes credit to him for that but then you have the likes of Niall Ronan getting on ahead of TOD and POM. Murray only got his opportunity at the end of the season because of injuries. Maybe he is under pressure to get results. Hopefully he'll have seen how the academy players were able to step up last season and take it a step further.

This might be a little controversial, but are POM and TOD actually that good as 7's? I'm not sure TOD has the pace for it and POM has been injured since before Christmas but even then I seem to recall him coming on at 6, usually? TOD always strikes me as a 6.

The hype around POM is impressive but I think he still has a lot to prove.

Ronan may never be a top player, but he fills a certain role well. I certainly don't see him as Wallace's long term replacement but for all the crying about him, is he actually keeping a better player off the team, I'm not so sure.

profitius

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

This might be a little controversial, but are POM and TOD actually that good as 7's? I'm not sure TOD has the pace for it and POM has been injured since before Christmas but even then I seem to recall him coming on at 6, usually? TOD always strikes me as a 6.

The hype around POM is impressive but I think he still has a lot to prove.

Ronan may never be a top player, but he fills a certain role well. I certainly don't see him as Wallace's long term replacement but for all the crying about him, is he actually keeping a better player off the team, I'm not so sure.

POM will be a fantastic player for Munster. Hes good at the breakdown, he is good at making the hard yards and Cork Con even played him on the wing and he performed very well. He shows good leadership qualities but a bit hotheaded.

POM can play anywhere across the backrow. That might be his problem. They don't know where to play him but its the sign of a well rounded player. He does need to put on some extra kgs and as you said, he missed a large chuck of the season.

TOD looks to be a powerful player but not very mobile. Probably the opposite to Ronan and could be more suited taking on teams with big packs.

I've nothing against Niall Ronan and don't want to be singling him out but I think he lacks the physicality to play top level rugby. He has good attributes but makes little impact in tight matches.

On a positive note, Ronan would make a great 7's player IMO. He looks to be perfectly suited to that.

Amazotheamazing

profitius wrote: »

POM will be a fantastic player for Munster. Hes good at the breakdown, he is good at making the hard yards and Cork Con even played him on the wing and he performed very well. He shows good leadership qualities but a bit hotheaded.

I'm inherently suspicious of backrowers who are so good they have to be played on the wing. One could easily argue that for whatever reason Con felt he wasn't good enough as a backrower to start that game in the backrow.

buck65

buck65 wrote: »

McGahan should be applauded for his attitude this season to giving fresh blood a chance. We are going into a difficult season with the likes of Barnes, Murray, Jones, Archer, Nagle having played a decent bit at a high level.

*cough*

Danny Barnes
Started 4, subbed 3

Stephen Archer
Started 3, subbed 8

Connor Murray
Started 9, subbed 4

Felix Jones
Started 11

Ian Nagle
Started 8, subbed 2

Compare with

John Hayes
Started 12, subbed 12

Donnacha Ryan
Started 17, subbed 6

* Subbed does not necessarily indicate any gametime

Can't think that McGahan has done much to bring them through tbh...

profitius

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I'm inherently suspicious of backrowers who are so good they have to be played on the wing. One could easily argue that for whatever reason Con felt he wasn't good enough as a backrower to start that game in the backrow.

He was just back from injury and I suppose Con didn't want to upset the regulars. Cutriss played in the AIL final at 7 for Con and I think POM was on the bench. That doesn't mean much.

He did get a run of games early in the season for Munster before the injury.

Amazotheamazing

profitius wrote: »

He was just back from injury and I suppose Con didn't want to upset the regulars. Cutriss played in the AIL final at 7 for Con and I think POM was on the bench. That doesn't mean much.

He did get a run of games early in the season for Munster before the injury.

POM came off the bench in the final (and played very well) in the backrow.

I'm not doubting he has it in him to be a very good player but I'm not sure that he's either there yet or that his best position will be 7.

Amazotheamazing

Deleted User wrote: »

*cough*

Danny Barnes
Started 4, subbed 3

Felix Jones
Started 11

Ian Nagle
Started 8, subbed 2



Can't think that McGahan has done much to bring them through tbh...

Barnes, Nagle and Jones all had injuries during the season.

And, imo, Ryan had a really great season for Munster, hope he makes the RWC on the back of it.

I've no problem with him playing, I'm comparing like for like here.

A "not established starter" vs a "not established starter". None of the young guns came out near him.

Perhaps the fact that I don't rate him clouds my argument, but if I'd picked say, Denis Hurley, with 13 starts and 6 subs, would my point be a bit clearer?

None of the players mentioned got "decent" gametime. Just because we saw them a few times at the end of the season does not mean they got much exposure at all. It's a memory bias.

Amazotheamazing

Deleted User wrote: »

I've no problem with him playing, I'm comparing like for like here.

A "not established starter" vs a "not established starter". None of the young guns came out near him.

Perhaps the fact that I don't rate him clouds my argument, but if I'd picked say, Denis Hurley, with 13 starts and 6 subs, would my point be a bit clearer?

None of the players mentioned got "decent" gametime. Just because we saw them a few times at the end of the season does not mean they got much exposure at all. It's a memory bias.

I can see your point but I reckon most of the players mentioned are happy enough with how the season ended for them.

Anyhow, there's still a lot of time to get with Donncha Ryan fanclub, don't fight it, feel it.

I think Denis Hurley has a fight on his hands to keep his place.

jolley123

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Anyhow, there's still a lot of time to get with Donncha Ryan fanclub, don't fight it, feel it.

Can't see Ryan ever being a regular starter for Ireland. Munster maybe, but not Ireland. I reckon he will travel to the WC just because he can play lock, but after that, I doubt he'll be involved with Ireland ever again.

Amazotheamazing

jolley123 wrote: »

Can't see Ryan ever being a regular starter for Ireland. Munster maybe, but not Ireland. I reckon he will travel to the WC just because he can play lock, but after that, I doubt he'll be involved with Ireland ever again.

Perhaps, if he keeps his form up I think he can force his way into the 22.

CiaranMT

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

POM came off the bench in the final (and played very well) in the backrow.

I'm not doubting he has it in him to be a very good player but I'm not sure that he's either there yet or that his best position will be 7.

profitius wrote: »

He was just back from injury and I suppose Con didn't want to upset the regulars. Cutriss played in the AIL final at 7 for Con and I think POM was on the bench. That doesn't mean much.

He did get a run of games early in the season for Munster before the injury.

He started on the wing opposite Craig O' Hanlon for Young Munster.

Amazotheamazing

CiaranMT wrote: »

He started on the wing opposite Craig O' Hanlon for Young Munster.

That was the semi-final. In the final he started on the bench.

bamboozle

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Perhaps, if he keeps his form up I think he can force his way into the 22.

i'd have McLaughlin on the plane ahead of Ryan, far better player with more big game experience in my view. However Kidney will pump for Ryan ahead of Mclaughlin.

profitius

bamboozle wrote: »

i'd have McLaughlin on the plane ahead of Ryan, far better player with more big game experience in my view. However Kidney will pump for Ryan ahead of Mclaughlin.

How is McLaughlin a far better player?

kerrysdad

Speculation linking All Black centre Ma'a Nonu with Munster was put firmly to bed this morning after the 29-year-old signed a two-year deal with the Auckland Blues. The former Wellington Hurricanes star had been slated as a target for Tony McGahan’s side, with reports last December suggesting he could move to Thomond Park after the World Cup.

http://www.ireland.com/news/nonu-staying-in-new-zealand/608242

PhatPiggins

profitius wrote: »

How is McLaughlin a far better player?

McLaughlin is a better backrower but Ryan is a better secondrower. Have to say that I think McLaughlin is the better hybrid player though.

Risteard

I'd go with Ryan.

He's primarily a second row, which is the area we'll need cover with presumably only POC, DOC and Cullen being the other second rows.

McLaughlin, whilst being a great 6 hasn't played an awful lot at second row. With potentially only one injury away to a second row from him being on the bench and I'd prefer the guy with more second row experience covering than a 6 who has played some games there.

jolley123

I dunno. If you're going to bring Ryan because he's a lock.....why not take Tuohy so. Or is Tuohy injured?

McLaughlin is a better player in general imo, and I'd probably choose him over Ryan, but it's one of those calls that's so close, that I probably can't help but be slightly biased.

thomond2006

Tuohy is injured I think.

Risteard

jolley123 wrote: »

I dunno. If you're going to bring Ryan because he's a lock.....why not take Tuohy so. Or is Tuohy injured?

McLaughlin is a better player in general imo, and I'd probably choose him over Ryan, but it's one of those calls that's so close, that I probably can't help but be slightly biased.

Don't think he's in the squad. Was injured for a good bit of the season, if he hadn't been and kept up his form, he would have been in with a good shout.

Actually looking at the stats now, he played quite a bit for Ulster this season. Might have been injured during the 6 Nations, I know he was injured at some point.